Wasabi wallet data privacy questions

[arabspaceship123]

We’ve read Wasabi wallet shouldn't be used because they're using blockchain analysis companies https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5286821.msg62421785#msg62421785. I don't know everything about their relationship so I'm asking questions about info they're storing or sharing.

Which data gets transmitted to zkSNACKs when Wasabi wallet opens in Win 11?

If wallet1 has 10 transactions, wallet2 has 10 transactions, wallet3 has 2 transactions are they linked to the same user by zkSNACKs or it's 22 anonymous transactions which zkSNACKs can't link to the same user?

Do zkSNACKs store any data to link users from received<>sent addresses after mixing?

Which info does zkSNACKs share with blockchain companies is it limited to scanning incoming mixes for analysis?

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[Z-tight]

Nobody knows this information, because Wasabi won't tell.

The blockchain analysis company they are funding was even kept a secret, before they were exposed that it was Coinfirm, and yet Wasabi still claims to be the ultimate privacy solution, when they are clearly working with a pro-censorship service to spy on people's UTXO.

Even if Wasabi and zkSNACKs publish the criteria for blacklisting certain UTXO, it will not change the fact that they can blacklist any UTXO for any reason they decide at all, and surely they are storing and sharing data with a blockchain analysis firm, if not how then will they spy on their customers.

[Yamane_Keto]

It doesn't matter how much data Wasabi wallet knows but from who are you trying to hide your data?

If it is from Wasabi wallet aka zkSNACKs, according to the some open data, they can know all the addresses associated with the CoinJoin process, down to your IP addresses, and all the details of your addresses or addresses that you may generate in the future.
But with this data they cannot identify you as you can enhance your privacy by running a full node using TOR and using an additional mixing layers.

The problem is if those trying to search for you are law enforcement agencies like the FBI, they can contact Google, Apple, Bing, Microsoft, coinbase, some electrum servers, block explorers, zzz, etc. Then trying to hide your identity may be next to impossible. Remember, the owner of ChipMixer has been tracked down and arrested. https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1574581/download

if you care about your privacy, Wasabi wallet is not a privacy option.

[o_e_l_e_o]

If wallet1 has 10 transactions, wallet2 has 10 transactions, wallet3 has 2 transactions are they linked to the same user by zkSNACKs or it's 22 anonymous transactions which zkSNACKs can't link to the same user?

Technically, they shouldn't be. Wasabi uses block filters, and they say that each relevant block is downloaded over Tor from a different node, preventing any one node from learning about which addresses are being queried by the same user. You can of course improve on this by linking Wasabi to your own node. Whether or not Wasabi are gathering data elsewhere I can't comment as I'm not going to read every line of code for a product I'm never going to use, but I wouldn't trust their word on literally anything.

Do zkSNACKs store any data to link users from received<>sent addresses after mixing?

We don't know and they won't tell us.

Which info does zkSNACKs share with blockchain companies is it limited to scanning incoming mixes for analysis?

We don't know and they won't tell us.

[NotATether]

Which data gets transmitted to zkSNACKs when Wasabi wallet opens in Win 11?

If you want, you can open up Wireshark and see what network packets are being transmitted from the Wasabi application. Oven that it's open-source, it shouldn't be too hard to see what kind of data is being phoned home, though I wouldn't be surprised if it's mostly UTXOs, addresses, and raw coinjoin transactions.

[arabspaceship123]

The blockchain analysis company they are funding was even kept a secret, before they were exposed that it was Coinfirm, and yet Wasabi still claims to be the ultimate privacy solution, when they are clearly working with a pro-censorship service to spy on people's UTXO.

They should've been honest from the beginning. They've lost the trust of their users who didn't know about blockchain analysis companies being hired.

At very least, we know chosen UTXO for CoinJoin process will be sent to blockchain analysis company. But besides that and their legal document[1], we don't know. And as reminder, Windows OS have poor privacy.

UTXOs being sent to blockchain analysis company has caused reputational problems for Wasabi wallet. It won't sustain a healthy market share of mixers if it can't be trusted.

[1] https://github.com/zkSNACKs/WalletWasabi/blob/master/WalletWasabi/Legal/Assets/LegalDocumentsWw2.txt

I don't like what I've seen about zkSNACKs but they're saying they don't collect data which is used to identify you. I know it's about not trusting them but we don't know how much.

If wallet1 has 10 transactions, wallet2 has 10 transactions, wallet3 has 2 transactions are they linked to the same user by zkSNACKs or it's 22 anonymous transactions which zkSNACKs can't link to the same user?

Technically, they shouldn't be. Wasabi uses block filters, and they say that each relevant block is downloaded over Tor from a different node, preventing any one node from learning about which addresses are being queried by the same user. You can of course improve on this by linking Wasabi to your own node. Whether or not Wasabi are gathering data elsewhere I can't comment as I'm not going to read every line of code for a product I'm never going to use, but I wouldn't trust their word on literally anything.

Does zkSNACKs have access to wallet names you've created on Win11?

Do zkSNACKs store any data to link users from received<>sent addresses after mixing?

We don't know and they won't tell us.

Which info does zkSNACKs share with blockchain companies is it limited to scanning incoming mixes for analysis?

We don't know and they won't tell us.

If they aren't disclosing it they can't be trusted. I'll ask in the WasabiWallet.io thread where Kruw is active. Their dev shouldn't hesitate answering.

Which data gets transmitted to zkSNACKs when Wasabi wallet opens in Win 11?

If you want, you can open up Wireshark and see what network packets are being transmitted from the Wasabi application. Oven that it's open-source, it shouldn't be too hard to see what kind of data is being phoned home, though I wouldn't be surprised if it's mostly UTXOs, addresses, and raw coinjoin transactions.

Thanks. It wouldn't be surprising if you've guessed right but I don't want to make a transaction on Wasabi wallet to get the info.

[Kruw]

We’ve read Wasabi wallet shouldn't be used because they're using blockchain analysis companies https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5286821.msg62421785#msg62421785. I don't know everything about their relationship so I'm asking questions about info they're storing or sharing.

Wasabi does not store or share any data with blockchain analysis companies. Your client never shares your xpub address with any third parties, including the coordinator, since it uses BIP158 compact block filters.  Your client never shares your IP address with any third parties, including the coordinator, since it uses Tor.

Which data gets transmitted to zkSNACKs when Wasabi wallet opens in Win 11?

When you open the wallet, you begin downloading block filters from the coordinator over Tor.  No identifiable data is transmitted since your IP address is protected.

If wallet1 has 10 transactions, wallet2 has 10 transactions, wallet3 has 2 transactions are they linked to the same user by zkSNACKs or it's 22 anonymous transactions which zkSNACKs can't link to the same user?

That would appear to zkSNACKs as 22 anonymous transactions that can't be linked to any user.

Do zkSNACKs store any data to link users from received<>sent addresses after mixing?

No, the Wasabi client prevents data from being leaked to the coordinator.  Users never link their addresses together because every input and output in the coinjoin is registered with a single use Tor identity.

Which info does zkSNACKs share with blockchain companies is it limited to scanning incoming mixes for analysis?

None, zkSNACKs purchases info from blockchain companies, zkSNACKs cannot sell any info to them because Wasabi is purposely designed not to reveal any data about its users.

Nobody knows this information, because Wasabi won't tell.

The blockchain analysis company they are funding was even kept a secret, before they were exposed that it was Coinfirm, and yet Wasabi still claims to be the ultimate privacy solution, when they are clearly working with a pro-censorship service to spy on people's UTXO.

Even if Wasabi and zkSNACKs publish the criteria for blacklisting certain UTXO, it will not change the fact that they can blacklist any UTXO for any reason they decide at all, and surely they are storing and sharing data with a blockchain analysis firm, if not how then will they spy on their customers.

This is completely wrong, everyone can verify for themselves that Wasabi does not leak any of their data because all of the code is open source, just like Bitcoin itself: https://github.com/zkSnacks/WalletWasabi

And as reminder, Windows OS have poor privacy.

You can use Wasabi with Linux or Mac if you would like - https://github.com/zkSNACKs/WalletWasabi/blob/master/WalletWasabi.Documentation/WasabiCompatibility.md

If it is from Wasabi wallet aka zkSNACKs, according to the some open data, they can know all the addresses associated with the CoinJoin process, down to your IP addresses, and all the details of your addresses or addresses that you may generate in the future.
But with this data they cannot identify you as you can enhance your privacy by running a full node using TOR and using an additional mixing layers.

This sort of data collection happens by default in wallets like Samourai which expose your IP address and xpub address, but Wasabi is specifically designed so zkSNACKs (or any coordinator you choose) never learns your wallet addresses or IP address since Tor is on by default and your addresses are never linked even when you don't run a node thanks to BIP158 compact block filters - https://bips.xyz/158

Do zkSNACKs store any data to link users from received<>sent addresses after mixing?

We don't know and they won't tell us.

Which info does zkSNACKs share with blockchain companies is it limited to scanning incoming mixes for analysis?

We don't know and they won't tell us.

You do know, the answer is "none" because Wasabi does not reveal any data to them.  zkSNACKs is very proud of their zero data collection policy and talks about it all the time, how could you miss it?

https://twitter.com/wasabiwallet/status/1678694963712802816
https://blog.wasabiwallet.io/zksnacks-means-zero-knowledge/

[Synchronice]

We’ve read Wasabi wallet shouldn't be used because they're using blockchain analysis companies https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5286821.msg62421785#msg62421785. I don't know everything about their relationship so I'm asking questions about info they're storing or sharing.

Wasabi does not store or share any data with blockchain analysis companies. Your client never shares your xpub address with any third parties, including the coordinator, since it uses BIP158 compact block filters.  Your client never shares your IP address with any third parties, including the coordinator, since it uses Tor.

Hmm, this is a very interesting quote of o_e_l_e_o which I remembered, what about this?

Here's some fun code from Wasabi (https://github.com/zkSNACKs/WalletWasabi/blob/795496595fae2f52730e1556bb6cafd2c649bb97/WalletWasabi.Tests/UnitTests/WabiSabi/Backend/CoinVerifierTests.cs#L133-L142):

Code:

ScheduleVerifications(coinVerifier, generatedCoins);
		foreach (var item in await coinVerifier.VerifyCoinsAsync(generatedCoins, CancellationToken.None))
		{
			if (item.ShouldBan)
			{
				naughtyCoins.Add(item.Coin);
			}
		}

		Assert.Empty(naughtyCoins); // Empty, so we won't kick out anyone from the CJ round.

Are your coins "naughty"? Once Wasabi have spied on them and made that decision, then you will be banned from coinjoining them with Wasabi. Add in the fact that they suffer from endemic address reuse (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5419000.msg61220171#msg61220171, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5286821.msg62085316#msg62085316), and I would steer well clear of ever using Wasabi.

None, zkSNACKs purchases info from blockchain companies, zkSNACKs cannot sell any info to them because Wasabi is purposely designed not to reveal any data about its users.

Hmm, sounds interesting

[o_e_l_e_o]

None, zkSNACKs purchases info from blockchain companies, zkSNACKs cannot sell any info to them because Wasabi is purposely designed not to reveal any data about its users.

Hmm, sounds interesting

This is not news. We've known for a long time this is exactly what Wasabi are doing - directly funding blockchain analysis companies with the fees that you pay for coinjoining through Wasabi. Isn't it fun paying for the privilege of being spied on and censored!?

You try to register an input for coinjoin, Wasabi hand that input over to Coinfirm and ask them for all the dirt they have on your input, and then decide whether or not you are allowed to spend your coins in the way that you want. If you are not allowed, they won't tell you why, of course.

Just like Satoshi envisioned! No third parties, except for ones who will censor you and charge you a fee for doing so!

[arabspaceship123]

@kruw thanks I'll ask other questions after analysing your replies. It doesn't look like zkSNACKs are keeping info which links users after mixes but it's about trusting what they're saying.

You try to register an input for coinjoin, Wasabi hand that input over to Coinfirm and ask them for all the dirt they have on your input, and then decide whether or not you are allowed to spend your coins in the way that you want. If you are not allowed, they won't tell you why, of course.

I don't intend using Wasabi wallet because their rep isn't good but isn't examining incoming UTXOs for stolen coins different from sweeping customers data? People are against zkSNACKs using blockchain analysis so they're getting a tough time in the Wasabi Wallet thread but is all of it justified?

And as reminder, Windows OS have poor privacy.

You can use Wasabi with Linux or Mac if you would like - https://github.com/zkSNACKs/WalletWasabi/blob/master/WalletWasabi.Documentation/WasabiCompatibility.md

That's true. It's just reminder for OP since he have some privacy concern, but implies that he use Windows OS.

My wallet tests were on Win 11 using good security solutions. It isn't the safest but it's the biggest OS. I'm happy I've tested other wallets on Windows Fun & learning with Electrum EPS, Electrum wallet & Bitcoin Core QT in Win 11

[o_e_l_e_o]

People are against zkSNACKs using blockchain analysis so they're getting a tough time in the Wasabi Wallet thread but is all of it justified?

Yes, it is justified. You can't market yourself as a privacy solution while simultaneously directly funding entities whose only purpose is to tear apart of every shred of privacy they can. Contrary to the lies they tell, Wasabi are anti-privacy, anti-fungibility, pro-surveillance, and pro-censorship.

My wallet tests were on Win 11 using good security solutions. It isn't the safest but it's the biggest OS.

I would direct you to a previous post I made regarding Windows here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5190776.msg52685703#msg52685703. If you are using Windows, you should assume your privacy is zero.

[arabspaceship123]

People are against zkSNACKs using blockchain analysis so they're getting a tough time in the Wasabi Wallet thread but is all of it justified?

Yes, it is justified. You can't market yourself as a privacy solution while simultaneously directly funding entities whose only purpose is to tear apart of every shred of privacy they can. Contrary to the lies they tell, Wasabi are anti-privacy, anti-fungibility, pro-surveillance, and pro-censorship.

Wasabi wallet being marketed as a privacy solution while simultaneously funding blockchain analysis is contradicting. I haven't seen data they're doing excessive bad things. Analysing incoming coins for naughty status isn't the biggest crime if it's designed to stop crime. If my wallet's hacked coins were sent to any address on its way to Wasabi for mixing I'd be happy if they succeeded in stopping coinjoins so I'm not getting why that makes people upset. If they're storing data without telling us Wasabi shouldn't be used because they're lying.

Which data's being stored by zkSNACKs in this transaction if I'm using Wasabi wallet. If they're all unused addresses on Electrum wallets can zkSNACKs stored data cause them to be linked?

o_e_l_e_o sends 0.1 btc to arabspaceship123
arabspaceship123 sends 0.1 btc to Wasabi wallet
Wasabi wallet sends mixed 0.1 btc to arabspaceship123
arabspaceship123 sends 0.05 btc to o_e_l_e_o
arabspaceship123 sends 0.05 btc to theymos

My wallet tests were on Win 11 using good security solutions. It isn't the safest but it's the biggest OS.

I would direct you to a previous post I made regarding Windows here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5190776.msg52685703#msg52685703. If you are using Windows, you should assume your privacy is zero.

I've read the post. It made me research Windows OS. I've found articles about Microsoft data policy. It's data nightmare. Microsoft aren't open about their data sharing policy.

Thanks for the warnings. I won't give up using Win 11 today it'll take time. When I'm ready I'll create another fun & learning thread to cover Bitcoin Core, Electrum, Electrum Personal Server & Linux Mint. If it works I'll take my Bitcoin node to Linux.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Analysing incoming coins for naughty status isn't the biggest crime if it's designed to stop crime.

This is the same old nonsense argument governments always use to erode your rights and surveil their population. Mass surveillance is designed to stop crime. Phone tapping is designed to stop crime. Banning encryption is designed to stop crime. Putting a government back door in all your devices is designed to stop crime. Reading all your emails and IMs is designed to stop crime. It is complete bullshit. There is no evidence that mass surveillance has ever managed to prevent a single incident of terrorism. It's not about preventing crime. It's never been about preventing crime. It's about control:

The old cliché is often mocked though basically true: there’s no reason to worry about surveillance if you have nothing to hide. That mindset creates the incentive to be as compliant and inconspicuous as possible: those who think that way decide it’s in their best interests to provide authorities with as little reason as possible to care about them. That’s accomplished by never stepping out of line. Those willing to live their lives that way will be indifferent to the loss of privacy because they feel that they lose nothing from it. Above all else, that’s what a Surveillance State does: it breeds fear of doing anything out of the ordinary by creating a class of meek citizens who know they are being constantly watched.

Which data's being stored by zkSNACKs in this transaction if I'm using Wasabi wallet.

Wasabi pay Coinfirm to investigate the output you are registering for coinjoin. So Coinfirm will absolutely be looking at the history of that output and seeing where it came from. If any of the previous addresses have ever been linked to an identity (such as via KYC, via addresses being shared publicly, via connecting to third party servers, via other transaction heuristics, etc.) then that will be identified and Coinfirm will be storing, sharing, and selling, that information on to other third parties.

[arabspaceship123]

Analysing incoming coins for naughty status isn't the biggest crime if it's designed to stop crime.

This is the same old nonsense argument governments always use to erode your rights and surveil their population. Mass surveillance is designed to stop crime. Phone tapping is designed to stop crime. Banning encryption is designed to stop crime. Putting a government back door in all your devices is designed to stop crime. Reading all your emails and IMs is designed to stop crime. It is complete bullshit. There is no evidence that mass surveillance has ever managed to prevent a single incident of terrorism. It's not about preventing crime. It's never been about preventing crime. It's about control:

The old cliché is often mocked though basically true: there’s no reason to worry about surveillance if you have nothing to hide. That mindset creates the incentive to be as compliant and inconspicuous as possible: those who think that way decide it’s in their best interests to provide authorities with as little reason as possible to care about them. That’s accomplished by never stepping out of line. Those willing to live their lives that way will be indifferent to the loss of privacy because they feel that they lose nothing from it. Above all else, that’s what a Surveillance State does: it breeds fear of doing anything out of the ordinary by creating a class of meek citizens who know they are being constantly watched.

In your opinion what's right to do if your wallet with 1 btc gets hacked. On blockchain you trace funds were sent to wallet bc1xx so you report it to police. A month later the coins moved to Binance. Soon your coins will be returned because they've been seized after blockchain analysis. That's happening now with exchanges so it can't be a bad process reuniting owners with stolen coins.

Scanning incoming UTXOs in Wasabi wallet it's the same as Binance or other exchanges doing it. What they're doing with data isn't clear. If it's being misused for unfair data collecting after it's completed its purpose it shouldn't be used. I don't trust any companies to voluntarily delete data after if they're able to profit from it.

Which data's being stored by zkSNACKs in this transaction if I'm using Wasabi wallet.

Wasabi pay Coinfirm to investigate the output you are registering for coinjoin. So Coinfirm will absolutely be looking at the history of that output and seeing where it came from. If any of the previous addresses have ever been linked to an identity (such as via KYC, via addresses being shared publicly, via connecting to third party servers, via other transaction heuristics, etc.) then that will be identified and Coinfirm will be storing, sharing, and selling, that information on to other third parties.

I believe if they've got it they'll sell it so asking data questions about what they're doing by separating wrong info from facts is crucial.

I've a new example for transactions
tx1 Satoshi uses Binance sends 0.1 btc to arabspaceship123 Electrum wallet 1
tx2 arabspaceship123 Electrum wallet 1 sends 0.1 btc to Wasabi wallet for mix
tx3 Wasabi wallet use Coinfirm for analysis
tx4 Wasabi wallet allows coinjoins sends mixed 0.1 btc to arabspaceship123 Electrum wallet 2
tx5 arabspaceship123 Electrum wallet 2 sends 0.05 btc to Satoshi Exodus Wallet
tx6 arabspaceship123 Electrum wallet 2 sends 0.04 btc to Satoshi Bitcoin Core wallet
tx7 arabspaceship123 Electrum wallet 2 sends 0.01 btc to arabspaceship123 Electrum wallet 3

Is this belief accurate?
It's been mentioned zkSNACKs can't link incoming UTXO's to outgoing UTXO's so that's good for privacy if true. They aren't storing ip address or device id when using Wasabi wallet. They're storing the address used by Satoshi in tx1 before coinjoins but aren't storing tx details after mixing so they can't link anything between tx2-7.

[o_e_l_e_o]

In your opinion what's right to do if your wallet with 1 btc gets hacked. On blockchain you trace funds were sent to wallet bc1xx so you report it to police. A month later the coins moved to Binance. Soon your coins will be returned because they've been seized after blockchain analysis. That's happening now with exchanges so it can't be a bad process reuniting owners with stolen coins.

There is a difference between a centralized exchange responding to police requests, and a so called "privacy" wallet enforcing censorship based on secret blacklists. There is no presumption of privacy if you use Binance, and they certainly don't market themselves as the ultimate privacy solution as Wasabi do. For every criminal's coins which are seized, there are dozens of innocent users also having coins seized because Binance have decided they are tainted or some other such bullshit.

If you lose your coins, then that sucks for you and I'm sorry to hear it, but I will never defend compromising the privacy of everyone else who uses bitcoin to make up for your mistakes, just as I will never defend mass surveillance of an entire country to stop a single criminal.

It's been mentioned zkSNACKs can't link incoming UTXO's to outgoing UTXO's so that's good for privacy if true.

This is true, provided you are lucky enough to get your coins in to a Wasabi coinjoin which does not have a critical flaw, of which there are many. But that's also the bare minimum you want from a coinjoin, and you can achieve it without using Wasabi spyware via either Whirlpool or JoinMarket.

[arabspaceship123]

There is a difference between a centralized exchange responding to police requests, and a so called "privacy" wallet enforcing censorship based on secret blacklists. There is no presumption of privacy if you use Binance, and they certainly don't market themselves as the ultimate privacy solution as Wasabi do. For every criminal's coins which are seized, there are dozens of innocent users also having coins seized because Binance have decided they are tainted or some other such bullshit.

Privacy wallets can't store data there's a contradiction in zkSNACKs philosophy. How many savers suffered when centralised exchanges designated coins as tainted it's a loss for owners.

If you lose your coins, then that sucks for you and I'm sorry to hear it, but I will never defend compromising the privacy of everyone else who uses bitcoin to make up for your mistakes, just as I will never defend mass surveillance of an entire country to stop a single criminal.

Thanks you've explained it that way. I didn't reject it I wanted to know what they're storing when using Wasabi wallet. If we don't know data they're storing we can't confront them.

It's been mentioned zkSNACKs can't link incoming UTXO's to outgoing UTXO's so that's good for privacy if true.

This is true, provided you are lucky enough to get your coins in to a Wasabi coinjoin which does not have a critical flaw, of which there are many. But that's also the bare minimum you want from a coinjoin, and you can achieve it without using Wasabi spyware via either Whirlpool or JoinMarket.

Whirpool you mean Samourai? I've reported about how Sparrow wallet wasn't something I'll use because of delays in mixing. My previous experience means I won't use Sparrow but I'm looking at Joinmarket.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Whirpool you mean Samourai?

Yes. Samourai is the name of the team/wallet behind the Whirlpool implementation of coinjoin. Whirlpool is also accessible via Sparrow, with other wallets in the works I believe.

My previous experience means I won't use Sparrow but I'm looking at Joinmarket.

I'm 99% certain the link you have included there is a scam site. I've never heard of it before despite using JoinMarket for years, there is no mention of that site whatsoever on the JoinMarket github, and the download link directs to a .exe file which does not exist on the github releases (https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket-clientserver/releases).

You should only download JoinMarket from the releases link I have given above and verify the download with the provided PGP signatures before installation. I'm pretty sure that .exe file will be malware.

[arabspaceship123]

My previous experience means I won't use Sparrow but I'm looking at Joinmarket.

I'm 99% certain the link you have included there is a scam site. I've never heard of it before despite using JoinMarket for years, there is no mention of that site whatsoever on the JoinMarket github, and the download link directs to a .exe file which does not exist on the github releases (https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket-clientserver/releases).

Thanks for amazing help o_e_l_e_o I wasn't focused so nearly download the malware from the fake Joinmarket site. It's safer I'll postpone using Joinmarket until I've set up Linux on old Mac I've come to own that'll be an experience learning as I ask questions.

You should only download JoinMarket from the releases link I have given above and verify the download with the provided PGP signatures before installation. I'm pretty sure that .exe file will be malware.

Running software without verifying downloads will lead to infections. I'll verify the download with PGP when it's done thanks it's something I've been doing for years.

It's fair Kruw gets invited to post opinions ahead of locking the thread.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Thanks for amazing help o_e_l_e_o I wasn't focused so nearly download the malware from the fake Joinmarket site.

Would you mind editing your previous comment to remove the link? Just in case anyone else skimming the thread clicks on it without realizing.

It's safer I'll postpone using Joinmarket until I've set up Linux on old Mac I've come to own that'll be an experience learning as I ask questions.

That is certainly the safest option. Since all coinjoin wallets need to be connected to the internet constantly in order to work (you can obviously disconnect but you won't be able to perform any coinjoins while disconnected), it is safest to have a separate clean machine dedicated to coinjoins if you are going to be coinjoining frequently or large volumes.

It's fair Kruw gets invited to post opinions ahead of locking the thread.

The other Wasabi thread already contains all his opinions if you care to read them. They are just the same nonsense Wasabi talking points repeated ad nauseum.

[arabspaceship123]

Thanks for amazing help o_e_l_e_o I wasn't focused so nearly download the malware from the fake Joinmarket site.

Would you mind editing your previous comment to remove the link? Just in case anyone else skimming the thread clicks on it without realizing.

I should've removed the links because curious users could find themselves in danger. I've removed it.

It's safer I'll postpone using Joinmarket until I've set up Linux on old Mac I've come to own that'll be an experience learning as I ask questions.

That is certainly the safest option. Since all coinjoin wallets need to be connected to the internet constantly in order to work (you can obviously disconnect but you won't be able to perform any coinjoins while disconnected), it is safest to have a separate clean machine dedicated to coinjoins if you are going to be coinjoining frequently or large volumes.

I'm trying to get started after research because I didn't wipe MacOS for Linux before. A dedicated machine's going to be perfect solution. I'd like to understand more about coinjoins for widening my learning. I own tiny amount of bitcoin so won't be coinjoining frequently or in large volumes. I want to learn how it works.

It's fair Kruw gets invited to post opinions ahead of locking the thread.

The other Wasabi thread already contains all his opinions if you care to read them. They are just the same nonsense Wasabi talking points repeated ad nauseum.

I'm a newcomer to the Wasabi thread. It's a heavy read because of details given in long questions & answers but I'll try going over it. I'll lock this thread if there's isn't activity.

Thanks o_e_l_e_o for amazing advice.

[o_e_l_e_o]

I've removed it.

Thanks!

I'd like to understand more about coinjoins for widening my learning. I own tiny amount of bitcoin so won't be coinjoining frequently or in large volumes. I want to learn how it works.

There are a few topics on this forum which are a good starting place.

Here is the post by Greg Maxwell introducing the concept of coinjoin for the first time: CoinJoin: Bitcoin privacy for the real world
And here is the post by Chris Belcher launching JoinMarket: [ANN] Joinmarket - Coinjoin that people will actually use

It's a heavy read because of details given in long questions & answers but I'll try going over it.

The bottom line is of the three current main coinjoin implementations - JoinMarket, Whirlpool, Wasabi - Wasabi is the only one cooperating with blockchain analysis, the only one supporting mass surveillance, and the only one implementing blacklists and censorship, not to mention suffering from address reuse and other flaws. There is literally no reason to choose Wasabi over either Whirlpool or JoinMarket.

Thanks o_e_l_e_o for amazing advice.

No problem!

[Kruw]

@kruw thanks I'll ask other questions after analysing your replies. It doesn't look like zkSNACKs are keeping info which links users after mixes but it's about trusting what they're saying.

There's no trust in zkSNACKs necessary - Wasabi is completely open source so you can verify for yourself that no identifiable data is ever sent to any third parties, including coinjoin coordinators such as zkSNACKs.

Wasabi wallet being marketed as a privacy solution while simultaneously funding blockchain analysis is contradicting. I haven't seen data they're doing excessive bad things. Analysing incoming coins for naughty status isn't the biggest crime if it's designed to stop crime. If my wallet's hacked coins were sent to any address on its way to Wasabi for mixing I'd be happy if they succeeded in stopping coinjoins so I'm not getting why that makes people upset.

Yeah, it's quite strange to see o_e_l_e_o be so passionately furious at the idea of a business refusing to make stolen money private that he would misdirect that anger at an open source project that allows anyone to run a  competing business.  If he hates zkSNACKs so much, why isn't he simply running his own WabiSabi coordinator by copying and pasting their open source code and making them go out of business by offering their service for free instead of charging any fees?...

Which data's being stored by zkSNACKs in this transaction if I'm using Wasabi wallet.

o_e_l_e_o sends 0.1 btc to arabspaceship123
arabspaceship123 sends 0.1 btc to Wasabi wallet
Wasabi wallet sends mixed 0.1 btc to arabspaceship123
arabspaceship123 sends 0.05 btc to o_e_l_e_o
arabspaceship123 sends 0.05 btc to theymos

The data stored by zkSNACKs is the exact same data that is stored on everyone else's full node when these transactions are confirmed in blocks.  zkSNACKs has no knowledge about who owns coins that have been mixed.

In your opinion what's right to do if your wallet with 1 btc gets hacked. On blockchain you trace funds were sent to wallet bc1xx so you report it to police. A month later the coins moved to Binance. Soon your coins will be returned because they've been seized after blockchain analysis. That's happening now with exchanges so it can't be a bad process reuniting owners with stolen coins.

Scanning incoming UTXOs in Wasabi wallet it's the same as Binance or other exchanges doing it. What they're doing with data isn't clear. If it's being misused for unfair data collecting after it's completed its purpose it shouldn't be used. I don't trust any companies to voluntarily delete data after if they're able to profit from it.

It's not quite the same as an exchange because there's no way that stolen coins can be seized by a coordinator, coinjoins are non custodial.  If a coordinator realizes coins are stolen, they can only refuse to include them in coinjoin transactions they coordinate.

Wasabi pay Coinfirm to investigate the output you are registering for coinjoin. So Coinfirm will absolutely be looking at the history of that output and seeing where it came from. If any of the previous addresses have ever been linked to an identity (such as via KYC, via addresses being shared publicly, via connecting to third party servers, via other transaction heuristics, etc.) then that will be identified and Coinfirm will be storing, sharing, and selling, that information on to other third parties.

This is completely wrong.  Wasabi coinjoin coordinators do not have any knowledge of who coinjoin outputs belong to.  You would be correct backdoors such as those in Samourai's coinjoin coordinator allow tracking the outputs that were created from coinjoin inputs due to xpub addresses and IP addresses being leaked by the Samourai or Sparrow client, but Wasabi clients automatically assume any coordinator is malicious and never reveal ownership of coinjoin outputs to them thanks to using compact block filters and Tor by default.

They're storing the address used by Satoshi in tx1 before coinjoins but aren't storing tx details after mixing so they can't link anything between tx2-7.

Yes, this description is correct.

[n0nce]

Which data gets transmitted to zkSNACKs when Wasabi wallet opens in Win 11?

Nobody knows this information, because Wasabi won't tell.

That's not really true. As long as you download the source files from their GitHub page and compile it yourself, you can check the code that runs on your own device.
I.e., you can read for yourself what information is sent out and what stays local.

However, the tricky part is that there's no way to tell what they are doing with the information the application does send to their servers.
Some information has to be sent for it to function, and it can definitely be used maliciously. Many users here agree with me, that after the statements Wasabi officially made, we know for a fact that they do act maliciously in terms of Bitcoin's original vision of freeing people from censorship and surveillance.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Yeah, it's quite strange to see o_e_l_e_o be so passionately furious at the idea of a business refusing to make stolen money private that he would misdirect that anger at an open source project that allows anyone to run a  competing business.

The "nothing to fear, nothing to hide" argument is so monumentally stupid and so widely discredited that to use it in this context you are either an idiot or actively malicious.

If he hates zkSNACKs so much, why isn't he simply running his own WabiSabi coordinator by copying and pasting their open source code and making them go out of business by offering their service for free instead of charging any fees?...

Because, as I've given you evidence of at least a dozen times and you have completely ignored at least a dozen times, Wasabi coinjoins are deeply flawed and result in outputs being linked to inputs due to various factors such as UTXO sizes and address reuse. Why would I want to run an inferior coinjoin coordinator when I can just use a much superior product such as JoinMarket or Whirlpool?

This is completely wrong.  Wasabi coinjoin coordinators do not have any knowledge of who coinjoin outputs belong to.

Cool strawman. That's not what I said at all. I said Coinfirm will be analyzing the inputs to ascertain their history and see to whom they belong, not Wasabi. You were the one here which conflated Wasabi and Coinfirm as being the same entity, which is frankly pretty hilarious.

we know for a fact that they do act maliciously in terms of Bitcoin's original vision of freeing people from censorship and surveillance.

This. Funding blockchain analysis is malicious. Gaslighting people in to believing that funding blockchain analysis is somehow in their best interests is just downright evil.

[Cricktor]

My wallet tests were on Win 11 using good security solutions. It isn't the safest but it's the biggest OS.

The biggest OS (I assume you mean largest marketshare or user base) is also the preferred playground for malware creators. I don't want to judge and/or compare the security of Windows vs. Linux vs. MacOS. But because Windows as OS is the preferred target for malware creators I wouldn't choose it as platform for crypto coin activities.

And as data privacy questions are a concern of the OP and as has been said here already that in this respect Windows is really terrible, I wonder why the OP sticks to Windows. You have at least two big arguments to stay away from Windows. (I acknowledge that OP is looking for some better solution with that.)

I prefer to use coinjoins with Sparrow wallet or JoinMarket (I don't care if coinjoins take a longer time; I can separate short-term from long-term coin use; what I want to make more private by coinjoining are rarely coins to be in a hurry with).

The controversy around Wasabi is pretty much heated and somewhat stuck in my opinion. I lack the time and coding knowledge to do my own research and code audit on Wasabi. And as there are alternatives, my choice is to stay away from Wasabi. YMMV...

[o_e_l_e_o]

I prefer to use coinjoins with Sparrow wallet or JoinMarket (I don't care if coinjoins take a longer time; I can separate short-term from long-term coin use; what I want to make more private by coinjoining are rarely coins to be in a hurry with).

I hit this milestone in Sparrow a few weeks ago, and decided to screenshot it for posterity:



I've added a few more to that count since then, and I've got a couple of such inputs in the same ballpark. It's turned in to an experiment now where I will just refuse to spend at least one of these outputs unless absolutely necessary just to see how high we can go. With every remix after the first completely free, of course.

I lack the time and coding knowledge to do my own research and code audit on Wasabi.

You don't need to. They openly admit they are cooperating with blockchain analysis and directly funding state sanctioned surveillance and censorship. That alone is more than enough to mean nobody in the right mind should ever use Wasabi.

[arabspaceship123]

They're storing the address used by Satoshi in tx1 before coinjoins but aren't storing tx details after mixing so they can't link anything between tx2-7.

Yes, this description is correct.

Kruw thanks you've replied when asked. You've settled questions bugging me but you're defending Wasabi Wallet when zkSNACKs isn't trusted. They're using blockchain analysis for coinjoins so tech forum users won't use it. If trust's lost it isn't easy regaining it.

However, the tricky part is that there's no way to tell what they are doing with the information the application does send to their servers.
Some information has to be sent for it to function, and it can definitely be used maliciously. Many users here agree with me, that after the statements Wasabi officially made, we know for a fact that they do act maliciously in terms of Bitcoin's original vision of freeing people from censorship and surveillance.

If the information's anonymous or untraceable when it's sent to their servers it shouldn't matter what they're doing with it. If it's linked to users data it's inappropriate. Did tech companies run source code tests to examine information being sent to zkSNACKs ?

Kruw answered questions with strong belief in what he's said so I'll give credit on his effort. He's defending Wasabi wallet when he knows he won't convince determined users about protecting Satoshi's words but he doesn't avoid answering.

The biggest OS (I assume you mean largest marketshare or user base) is also the preferred playground for malware creators. I don't want to judge and/or compare the security of Windows vs. Linux vs. MacOS. But because Windows as OS is the preferred target for malware creators I wouldn't choose it as platform for crypto coin activities.

The biggest OS by market share. That's why malware creators target Windows because of it's popularity.

[Kruw]

Kruw thanks you've replied when asked. You've settled questions bugging me but you're defending Wasabi Wallet when zkSNACKs isn't trusted. They're using blockchain analysis for coinjoins so tech forum users won't use it. If trust's lost it isn't easy regaining it.

That's the entire point of Wasabi:  You don't have to trust any coinjoin coordinator you choose since no information is ever provided to them.  Tor protects your IP address and block filters protect your xpub address.

[o_e_l_e_o]

You don't have to trust any coinjoin coordinator you choose since no information is ever provided to them.

Except you do have to trust zkSNACKs not to censor you after they are done paying blockchain analysis companies to spy on you.

There are other blockchain coinjoin implementations which do not have this weakness. Any sensible person will use one of them instead.

Edit: typo.

[arabspaceship123]

Kruw I've used a previous example so here's a newer. Rejected coins return to original address that's perfect if it's Bitcoin Core or Electrum wallets types. What happens next shouldn't include zkSNACKs or Coinfirm keeping tabs on my prior history UTXOs in Wasabi wallet or any future ones. As the receiver user I'd like to know will zkSNACKs or Coinfirm put eyes for following me or connect me to the naughty coins? It's important for understanding what Coinfirm does with data if they've analysed naughty coins.

tx1 Satoshi uses Binance sends 0.1 btc to arabspaceship123 Electrum wallet
tx2 arabspaceship123 Electrum wallet sends 0.1 btc to Wasabi wallet for mix
tx3 Wasabi wallet use Coinfirm for analysis. My 0.1 btc considered naughty so banned
tx4 Wasabi wallet returns 0.1 btc to arabspaceship123 Electrum wallet

Naughty coins will be sent back to the same address but the receiver won't get them if they've originated from mixers. What happens to banned naughty coins if they're sent from single use addresses in Sinbad Coinomize or Whirlwind?

tx1 Satoshi uses Binance sends 0.1 btc to arabspaceship123 Electrum wallet
tx2 arabspaceship123 Electrum wallet sends 0.1 btc to Sinbad wallet for mix
tx3 after mix Sinbad sends 0.1 btc to Wasabi wallet for mix
tx4 Coinfirm for analysis. My 0.1 btc considered naughty so banned
tx5 Wasabi wallet use Coinfirm for analysis. My 0.1 btc considered naughty so banned
tx6 Wasabi return 0.1 btc to Sinbad address but I won't get received funds

Kruw thanks you've replied when asked. You've settled questions bugging me but you're defending Wasabi Wallet when zkSNACKs isn't trusted. They're using blockchain analysis for coinjoins so tech forum users won't use it. If trust's lost it isn't easy regaining it.

That's the entire point of Wasabi:  You don't have to trust any coinjoin coordinator you choose since no information is ever provided to them.  Tor protects your IP address and block filters protect your xpub address.

[o_e_l_e_o]

-snip-

Wasabi won't automatically send your coins anywhere. If you deposit them to your Wasabi wallet and zkSNACKs decides you are a naughty little kid who is not allowed to coinjoin, then your coins just sit in your Wasabi wallet until you send them somewhere else. They won't automatically be returned to the previous address.

As the receiver user I'd like to know will zkSNACKs or Coinfirm put eyes for following me or connect me to the naughty coins?

He can't answer this because he doesn't know. Nobody except Coinfirm know what their secret analysis involves or know just how far backwards or forwards they are keeping track of your coins. Suffice to say, however, it's more than a single transaction, and they will be using all the data they have at their disposable to deanonymize and track your coins. This is what you subject yourself to if you use Wasabi.

[arabspaceship123]

-snip-

Wasabi won't automatically send your coins anywhere. If you deposit them to your Wasabi wallet and zkSNACKs decides you are a naughty little kid who is not allowed to coinjoin, then your coins just sit in your Wasabi wallet until you send them somewhere else. They won't automatically be returned to the previous address.

Before I didn't understand what happened to rejected naughty coins so I assumed the negative. It's better if there isn't a risk of coins beings sent back to addresses. If funds sit in Wasabi wallet it's owners can send them when it's convenient.

As the receiver user I'd like to know will zkSNACKs or Coinfirm put eyes for following me or connect me to the naughty coins?

He can't answer this because he doesn't know. Nobody except Coinfirm know what their secret analysis involves or know just how far backwards or forwards they are keeping track of your coins. Suffice to say, however, it's more than a single transaction, and they will be using all the data they have at their disposable to deanonymize and track your coins. This is what you subject yourself to if you use Wasabi.

How's Wasabi wallet connecting with Coinfirm for data analysis and what's Coinfirm doing with the info after they've decided coinjoin status? Kruw said Coinfirm secret analysis isn't connecting coinjoin outputs so does it mean it isn't bad if it's true?

[o_e_l_e_o]

How's Wasabi wallet connecting with Coinfirm for data analysis

Whatever coins you try to coinjoin, Wasabi pays Coinfirm to spy on those inputs and decide whether or not they are "naughty".

and what's Coinfirm doing with the info after they've decided coinjoin status?

We don't know, and Wasabi won't tell us. I suspect Kruw doesn't know this either - the knowledge is probably limited to the top 2 or 3 devs at Wasabi. But given that all blockchain analysis companies only exist to gather data and then sell and share that data with third parties, I would be very surprised if Coinfirm don't use this data that Wasabi pay them to gather in a variety of other nefarious ways.

[Kruw]

You don't have to trust any coinjoin coordinator you choose since no information is ever provided to them.

Except you do have to trust zkSNACKs not to censor you after they are done paying blockchain analysis companies to spy on you.

There are other blockchain implementations which do not have this weakness. Any sensible person will use one of them instead.

What "weakness"?  What do you mean "blockchain implementation"?  You are making no sense.

Rejected coins return to original address that's perfect if it's Bitcoin Core or Electrum wallets types.

Not quite:  Rejected coins never leave their original addresses at all.  No fees is paid, no coins are spent, no data is revealed.  Being rejected from a coinjoin is completely harmless to the user, they can simply register with a different coordinator with absolutely no consequences whatsoever.

What happens next shouldn't include zkSNACKs or Coinfirm keeping tabs on my prior history UTXOs in Wasabi wallet or any future ones. As the receiver user I'd like to know will zkSNACKs or Coinfirm put eyes for following me or connect me to the naughty coins? It's important for understanding what Coinfirm does with data if they've analysed naughty coins.

zkSNACKs or Coinfirm cannot follow you or connect you to the naughty coins because your IP address is protected by Tor.  They cannot connect the UTXO to any other coins in your wallet because your xpub address is protected by your client's use of block filters (https://bips.xyz/158).

This is the most important difference between Wasabi and other clients like Samourai/Sparrow:  Wasabi's developers and coordinators NEVER gain any data from you, whereas the Whirlpool coinjoin coordinator collects your data and will notify you when it gets turned over to the government:  https://samouraiwallet.com/canary

and what's Coinfirm doing with the info after they've decided coinjoin status?

We don't know, and Wasabi won't tell us. I suspect Kruw doesn't know this either - the knowledge is probably limited to the top 2 or 3 devs at Wasabi. But given that all blockchain analysis companies only exist to gather data and then sell and share that data with third parties, I would be very surprised if Coinfirm don't use this data that Wasabi pay them to gather in a variety of other nefarious ways.

You do know because Wasabi is open source, just like Bitcoin itself.  You can verify for yourself that no identifiable data is ever leaked by Wasabi clients to its developers or any coordinators.  Wasabi is very proud about its zero data collection policy, yet you continually say that "you don't know" what data is collected.

The answer is ZERO.

Do zkSNACKs store any data to link users from received<>sent addresses after mixing?

We don't know and they won't tell us.

Which info does zkSNACKs share with blockchain companies is it limited to scanning incoming mixes for analysis?

We don't know and they won't tell us.

You do know, the answer is "none" because Wasabi does not reveal any data to them.  zkSNACKs is very proud of their zero data collection policy and talks about it all the time, how could you miss it?

https://twitter.com/wasabiwallet/status/1678694963712802816
https://blog.wasabiwallet.io/zksnacks-means-zero-knowledge/

[arabspaceship123]

How's Wasabi wallet connecting with Coinfirm for data analysis

Whatever coins you try to coinjoin, Wasabi pays Coinfirm to spy on those inputs and decide whether or not they are "naughty".

How are zkSNACKs servers connected to Coinfirm to check incoming UTXOs. They haven't told how it's processed. If mixers wanted to reject stolen coins wouldn't it be convenient for hacked wallets addresses be posted in a central site. It stops blockchain analysers in direct communication with mixers.

and what's Coinfirm doing with the info after they've decided coinjoin status?

We don't know, and Wasabi won't tell us. I suspect Kruw doesn't know this either - the knowledge is probably limited to the top 2 or 3 devs at Wasabi. But given that all blockchain analysis companies only exist to gather data and then sell and share that data with third parties, I would be very surprised if Coinfirm don't use this data that Wasabi pay them to gather in a variety of other nefarious ways.

When a company gets data it means they can make money from selling it. If it's sitting with data collection companies you're sure it's going to be sold. They way Kruw's explained Coinfirm isn't doing anything with the data except checking for stolen coins. Should zkSNACKs develop a different strategy to check for stolen coins?

[o_e_l_e_o]

What "weakness"?

The weakness that if you use Wasabi, you can no longer use bitcoin as it was designed - peer to peer with no third parties. You can't do this because you have to ask Wasabi to ask Coinfirm for permission to spend your coins in the way you want. If Coinfirm decide you are a naughty child, then you are censored. This is obviously a significant weakness compared to other coinjoin implementations.

What do you mean "blockchain implementation"?

A typo. Fixed.

You do know because Wasabi is open source, just like Bitcoin itself.

He was specifically asking what Coinfirm do with the data Wasabi pay them to gather on your UTXOs. Whether or not Wasabi is open source is utterly irrelevant to this question. As usual you are answering completely different questions to what is actually being asked because you aren't honest enough to give the uncomfortable answers.

Coinfirm are a blockchain analysis company whose entire purposes and entire existence depends on gathering and selling data. Any data Wasabi pay them to gather will be used for any other analysis they want and sold to any other third parties they want.

[Medusah]

Being rejected from a coinjoin is completely harmless to the user, they can simply register with a different coordinator with absolutely no consequences whatsoever.

Being rejected from a coinjoin means being rejected from having your privacy protected, which is rather the opposite of harmless.  You are harming the people who might have not done anything and whose coins are arbitrarily subjected to crime by denying to anonymize their coins.  Sure, they can go and try out in another software, as JoinMarket, but you do harm the reputation of Bitcoin privacy software.

As for the "simply register with a different coordinator", how is that going?  Is there even one that is running separately from zkSNACKs?

[arabspaceship123]

When zkSNACKs made the deal they should've guaranteed info wouldn't be used for other analysis or sold. What's in the fine print between zkSNACKs & Coinfirm matters to users. Is it available? Kruw's saying Wasabi wallet isn't taking data collection but he hasn't said what Coinfirm's doing with data.

You do know because Wasabi is open source, just like Bitcoin itself.

He was specifically asking what Coinfirm do with the data Wasabi pay them to gather on your UTXOs. Whether or not Wasabi is open source is utterly irrelevant to this question. As usual you are answering completely different questions to what is actually being asked because you aren't honest enough to give the uncomfortable answers.

Coinfirm are a blockchain analysis company whose entire purposes and entire existence depends on gathering and selling data. Any data Wasabi pay them to gather will be used for any other analysis they want and sold to any other third parties they want.

[o_e_l_e_o]

What's in the fine print between zkSNACKs & Coinfirm matters to users. Is it available?

No, it's secret. Wasabi won't even tell you something as basic as why your coins are being censored. They certainly aren't going to tell you what is in the small print of their agreements.

Kruw's saying Wasabi wallet isn't taking data collection but he hasn't said what Coinfirm's doing with data.

He is deliberately not answering that because either he doesn't know, or he does know and it's awful as I described above. If he does respond to this direct question, I fully expect him just to repeat his same nonsense sound bites.

[Medusah]

What's in the fine print between zkSNACKs & Coinfirm matters to users. Is it available?

We don't even know for sure it's Coinfirm.  The community in this place and in Twitter had reached in that conclusion, but they have not made it official.

Kruw's saying Wasabi wallet isn't taking data collection but he hasn't said what Coinfirm's doing with data.

At this point, I think Kruw is only defending the Wasabi project from bias, because he is a contributor.

[Z-tight]

What's in the fine print between zkSNACKs & Coinfirm matters to users. Is it available? Kruw's saying Wasabi wallet isn't taking data collection but he hasn't said what Coinfirm's doing with data.

You are surely free to ask questions, but i don't think you'll get any honest response from this user about all the questions you've been asking, you can follow the discussion in this topic and you'll get most of the honest info that you want, as for the rest, we do not know because Wasabi is keeping it a secret, even reasons why you can be blacklisted is a secret. It is just better not to use wasabi and forget about it.

At this point, I think Kruw is only defending the Wasabi project from bias, because he is a contributor.

It has been clear from the beginning. The backlash wouldn't have been this much if wasabi and this user too just admit that with blacklisting certain UTXO they are not working in line with what BTC stands for... and some other consoling statements along those lines, it will put an end to the case asap, though wasabi would still not be recommended, but to still be arguing that they are the ultimate privacy solution for BTC is really malicious.

[arabspaceship123]

What's in the fine print between zkSNACKs & Coinfirm matters to users. Is it available?

No, it's secret. Wasabi won't even tell you something as basic as why your coins are being censored. They certainly aren't going to tell you what is in the small print of their agreements.

If it's a secret it's another reason why Wasabi gets negative rep. It's important info they shouldn't be hiding from users.

Kruw's saying Wasabi wallet isn't taking data collection but he hasn't said what Coinfirm's doing with data.

He is deliberately not answering that because either he doesn't know, or he does know and it's awful as I described above. If he does respond to this direct question, I fully expect him just to repeat his same nonsense sound bites.

Kruw's busy giving answers in threads he's inundated with questions about Wasabi's data. I respect him I don't have a bad impression of Kruw. He's believing in Wasabi Wallet so I'll respect him for defending it but if he doesn't know it's better he says.

If we don't know what Coinfirm's doing with data they've received from zkSNACKs we can't be satisfied it isn't spying outside the scope of blockchain analyis for coinjoin.

What's in the fine print between zkSNACKs & Coinfirm matters to users. Is it available?

We don't even know for sure it's Coinfirm.  The community in this place and in Twitter had reached in that conclusion, but they have not made it official.

Didn't Kruw says it's Coinfirm?

What's in the fine print between zkSNACKs & Coinfirm matters to users. Is it available? Kruw's saying Wasabi wallet isn't taking data collection but he hasn't said what Coinfirm's doing with data.

It is just better not to use wasabi and forget about it.

I've used it recently for tests but else don't use Wasabi wallet. I've done the same with Sparrow wallet when I've tested it. I'm stacking sats so I'm a small saver using Electrum wallet so I'm asking about Wasabi Wallet because I'm interested learning about wallets, mixers, TXID, blockchains

[Z-tight]

If it's a secret it's another reason why Wasabi gets negative rep. It's important info they shouldn't be hiding from users.

That is exactly one of the points, or maybe they don't even have concrete reasons to tell, they just spy on you and then decide whether you have a right to their CoinJoin or not.

Kruw's busy giving answers in threads he's inundated with questions about Wasabi's data. I respect him I don't have a bad impression of Kruw. He's believing in Wasabi Wallet so I'll respect him for defending it but if he doesn't know it's better he says.

I don't have a problem if people defend who they represent, but there are flaws that are just so obvious that it becomes so malicious to continue defending. It is obvious you lose privacy when you use Wasabi's CoinJoin, because they use your fee to pay a blockchain analysis company to spy on you, they are working contrary to how BTC is supposed to work, how can one continue to argue against the fact and claim they are the ultimate privacy solution?

Didn't Kruw says it's Coinfirm?

No.

[Medusah]

The backlash wouldn't have been this much if wasabi and this user too just admit that with blacklisting certain UTXO they are not working in line with what BTC stands for... and some other consoling statements along those lines, it will put an end to the case asap, though wasabi would still not be recommended, but to still be arguing that they are the ultimate privacy solution for BTC is really malicious.

This is the unfortunate consequence of being biased.  You will support the policy your money depend on; moral standards secondary.  We have no idea how much money they are making out of this, but judging by the many partnerships with Wasabi, I believe lots.  Even achow101, one of the most active Bitcoin developers, is sponsored by Wasabi to do live streams in Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1886617304

[o_e_l_e_o]

It's important info they shouldn't be hiding from users.

They also shouldn't be surveilling or censoring their users, but here we are.

Didn't Kruw says it's Coinfirm?

No one from Wasabi has ever confirmed nor denied it is Coinfirm. We are assuming as much because of this code in the Wasabi codebase: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5457078.msg62438954#msg62438954

so I'm asking about Wasabi Wallet because I'm interested learning about wallets, mixers, TXID, blockchains

You've learnt enough about Wasabi to know they are an enemy of bitcoin and no one should ever use them. You can move on to learning about other topics now.

[arabspaceship123]

Didn't Kruw says it's Coinfirm?

No one from Wasabi has ever confirmed nor denied it is Coinfirm. We are assuming as much because of this code in the Wasabi codebase: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5457078.msg62438954#msg62438954

When I've mentioned Coinfirm to Kruw he hasn't denied so I've assumed it's them. It isn't about the codebase it's about Kruw didn't deny they're using Coinfirm.

so I'm asking about Wasabi Wallet because I'm interested learning about wallets, mixers, TXID, blockchains

You've learnt enough about Wasabi to know they are an enemy of bitcoin and no one should ever use them. You can move on to learning about other topics now.

Thanks o_e_l_e_o I've moved on to other topics but there's one question Kruw hasn't answered. I'd like to read his answer. When Coinfirm's in possession of addresses to run analysis what else are they doing with them. I'll ask Kruw for the answer.

Other topics to learn include Monero so I've put a I'm about to test Monero so should I use gui wallet or light wallet thread. I wanted to test Bisq after my Monero review but if I'm going to download the pruned blockchain it's possible I'll test Bisq first.

[Pmalek]

The passion that Kruw shows in defending Wasabi's business model is amazing to me. He has no problem defending a so-called privacy tool that asks a non-privacy entity to check if selective privacy is allowed for user X. Before privacy is approved, the user's privacy will be violated by checking the history of their UTXOs and finding as much information as possible. If the history is considered to be bad and checks any of the secret checkmarks no one knows anything about, the person using the privacy tool (for privacy reasons) will be rejected. Amazing! 

[arabspaceship123]

Kruw's passionately defending Wasabi wallet but it won't be simple to forget what zkSNACKs did. Their lost rep isn't coming back. As a mixer they'll never reset relations with users it's over. Other coinjoin options exist so they'll grow but Wasabi's going to lose users.

I've waited for Kruw to answer about what Coinfirm does with addresses but he didn't reply so I'm locking the thread.