trading futures by manupulating spot.

[cafter]

does institutions trade like this? :
like buying futures long position(leverages) at $10 and driving spot price(by huge capital) to upwards like something about $10.5 and selling futures at $10.5 and making profits because of leverage.

do institutions or whales trade like that?

[1714484764]

1714484764

[Oshosondy]

You mean for example an institution to buy bitcoin at $26000 in spot market, manipulating the price to go higher, open long position in the derivative market with 2x leverage or more so that they can gain more?

Bitcoin market is not easily manipulated and I do not think institutions can think that way if they do not want to lose and see unexpected things to happen.

[Beparanf]

does institutions trade like this? :
like buying futures long position(leverages) at $10 and driving spot price(by huge capital) to upwards like something about $10.5 and selling futures at $10.5 and making profits because of leverage.

do institutions or whales trade like that?

Future price on exchange is not related on spot trading price. They different orderbook volume that's why future price sometimes have a higher or lower price than spot market in case of volatility on the spot.

But I believe that manipulation is indeed happening on futures trading because of the random price swing just to liquidate open position. We can't confirm this since exchange is not regulated and probably the reason why some exchange doesn't want a full audit.

[Hamza2424]

does institutions trade like this? :
like buying futures long position(leverages) at $10 and driving spot price(by huge capital) to upwards like something about $10.5 and selling futures at $10.5 and making profits because of leverage.

do institutions or whales trade like that?

Hmm, buddy it can be answered in many ways I would like to answer it with the trading pair because the volume is the key to manipulating the pair you need to have enough capital to compete with the volume suppose you are competing with a pair having a volume of the $1B you need to have at least a reasonable amount like $100M or $200M to drive the market according to your own appetite. Similar to the market capital of the Coin. If you want to manipulate the market you need the supply at least a reasonable amount as in the case of BTC if you want to manipulate the market in situations like now you need at least 20K BTC to 30K BTC. 

For the answer to your query, I think no whales ever trade like that, even most of whales are considered as the long term holders.

[rat03gopoh]

The futures market usually lists established coins that are less likely to be manipulated. And also as said above, the futures chart isn't the one you see on the spot market. They're different chambers and are independent (I'm not talking about manipulation of the charts by insiders, which is probably by tacit agreement with the whales).

[Faisal2202]

does institutions trade like this? :
like buying futures long position(leverages) at $10 and driving spot price(by huge capital) to upwards like something about $10.5 and selling futures at $10.5 and making profits because of leverage.

do institutions or whales trade like that?

If you are a whale and do have full surety that by selling your BTC you would dump the market or buy buying more BTC in huge quantity you could pump the market. Then why would you not try to make some extra money? Because I get to know that the Market is going up I will definitely take a long position and vice versa. The point is, the answer to this question is obvious but if you are looking for some stats that could prove it then that's need some time and some research which also not an easy task because these whales are not easy to understand (means there ways are different though).

[Hamza2424]

Future price on exchange is not related on spot trading price. They different orderbook volume that's why future price sometimes have a higher or lower price than spot market in case of volatility on the spot.

But I believe that manipulation is indeed happening on futures trading because of the random price swing just to liquidate open position. We can't confirm this since exchange is not regulated and probably the reason why some exchange doesn't want a full audit.

Hmm, yes I do agree that the order book is separate even though sometimes the price also varies but this variation never exceeds a little in the highly volatile market movement in the future we can see a few cents or in the case of BTC $X variation between the sports market pair and Future market pair. The point is variation follows a certain limit.

If you are a whale and do have full surety that by selling your BTC you would dump the market or buy buying more BTC in huge quantity you could pump the market. Then why would you not try to make some extra money? Because I get to know that the Market is going up I will definitely take a long position and vice versa. The point is, the answer to this question is obvious but if you are looking for some stats that could prove it then that's need some time and some research which also not an easy task because these whales are not easy to understand (means there ways are different though).

No buddy here the point is not of the surety because we can check the open market order book and total buying pressure and selling pressure easily, point is whales are not traders usually, they just Buy and Hold until certain circumstances.

[usekevin]

The future trading is not the good one and high risky one,So the whales will not do the crypto future trading.Due to unstable market,the future mostly hit your liquidity at very big range.So the future trading is risky one,the people who using it should take full responsibility for the money loss.Due to more unstable market,the cross is most important one.If you keep the cross value above 20x-50x.Even though you keep 10k dollars for the liquidity all your money will goes to zero value.So selecting the cross is most important in the future trade.

[Bitcoin_Arena]

does institutions trade like this? :
like buying futures long position(leverages) at $10 and driving spot price(by huge capital) to upwards like something about $10.5 and selling futures at $10.5 and making profits because of leverage.

do institutions or whales trade like that?

This is probably so hard to pull off because sometimes spot prices can not be the same as futures prices. Also, the index price used by the liquidation engine and sometime triggering limit orders is determined by the average spot price of the selected exchanges

[Oilacris]

You mean for example an institution to buy bitcoin at $26000 in spot market, manipulating the price to go higher, open long position in the derivative market with 2x leverage or more so that they can gain more?

Bitcoin market is not easily manipulated and I do not think institutions can think that way if they do not want to lose and see unexpected things to happen.

Or simply that Crypto market cant really be easily manipulated but we cant really deny that there are indeed times on which movements really seem so odd on which sudden declines and liquidating

whether long or short positions would really be hit up. This is why we cant really be able to tell that its completely manipulation free yet whales+institutions could really make out some play here on this space.For crypto then it would be hard due to that decentralized aspect but if we do talk about stocks or forex then this is something that could really be seen but would really be that hard to be able to
detect out when its happening. Futures trading is really that profitable in even just moving a few bucks with high leverage but something that would really be risky.

For institutions then we cant really tell if they are doing this or not but i wont really be so shocked if ever they got caught someday.  Wait, is it possible? lol

[Latviand]

Futures is like an agreement or contract to buy and sell your bitcoin or crypto at a specific price on a specific date hoping that you're right about the price when that time arrives and we know that the price of bitcoin is dictated by supply and demand and the spot market is where bitcoin and other crypto are sold or bought quickly depending on the market sentiments and how many people are currently buying or selling, now with that in mind we can surmise that if the prices are influenced by supply and demand then which means that the movement is pretty random which might may affect the result of your prediction of the price on your futures so yes in a way you can move the futures market with spot market but that's difficult to do and it's expensive for a company to do that not to mention that they have to be sneaky about their intent to manipulate the market to their favor because it's still market manipulation and insider trading to some degree. Just take the current price dump of bitcoin, I doubt that there's no insider who has a short position because they know that the prices are going to go down

TLDR: If you have the money and influence, yes you can manipulate it.

[Faisal2202]

No buddy here the point is not of the surety because we can check the open market order book and total buying pressure and selling pressure easily, point is whales are not traders usually, they just Buy and Hold until certain circumstances.

How can you be so sure that they do not really long or short? Because I am very interested to learn more about it because I made that reply because it seems obvious to me because whales are not holders they just want money they are manipulators and why would they not short or long there BTC or any assets they have to make more money. They are money makers. I am not talking about all the whales because some whales are just sitting there not taking part in such activities.

[Oshosondy]

Future price on exchange is not related on spot trading price. They different orderbook volume that's why future price sometimes have a higher or lower price than spot market in case of volatility on the spot.

But I believe that manipulation is indeed happening on futures trading because of the random price swing just to liquidate open position. We can't confirm this since exchange is not regulated and probably the reason why some exchange doesn't want a full audit.

You did not understand the OP. He means the spot market should be manipulated while the manipulator open higher leverage position on the future market to make more profit. It is true that the spot price is not the same as the derivative price, but they are directly proportional. Which means as one (spot or derivative) is increasing in price, the other is also increasing in price.

For institutions then we cant really tell if they are doing this or not but i wont really be so shocked if ever they got caught someday.  Wait, is it possible? lol

This kind of manipulation is similar to wash trading and it can be known to people as we have heard about some on the news before. But it is not about a manipulated market but about how it can be used to manipulate the market. And this is not that related to OP (I mean my illustration) because it is solely about spot market. Although as you said, nobody knows if the actor is also involved in derivative market anonymously.

[Beparanf]

Future price on exchange is not related on spot trading price. They different orderbook volume that's why future price sometimes have a higher or lower price than spot market in case of volatility on the spot.

But I believe that manipulation is indeed happening on futures trading because of the random price swing just to liquidate open position. We can't confirm this since exchange is not regulated and probably the reason why some exchange doesn't want a full audit.

You did not understand the OP. He means the spot market should be manipulated while the manipulator open higher leverage position on the future market to make more profit. It is true that the spot price is not the same as the derivative price, but they are directly proportional. Which means as one (spot or derivative) is increasing in price, the other is also increasing in price.

Thanks for the correction, I’m focus on his example which is just a minor price movement. Typically, A sell-off happening on a single exchange doesn’t reflect to the general price of Bitcoin especially on future trading. Future trading market price is different to spot price for the sole purpose countering spot manipulation. Futures Market will not be affected in case someone sell-off on spot market while he has a position in the futures trading. The only way to manipulate the market is by doing a mass sell-off on multiple exchange to move the average price of Bitcoin which affects the future price.

[ScamViruS]

Futures trading and spot trading are separate order books and these two markets are interrelated. Now if any institution or whale takes an entry in a particular coin then they will try to think like this it is normal. But to move a particular coin to a particular target requires a lot of capital, especially in futures trading, pumping any coin requires a lot of capital.

And manipulating the Bitcoin market is very difficult, running the Bitcoin market on your own is very difficult and requires huge capital. But yes the strategy you are talking about is possible but the most important thing here is that the trader has to have huge funds and the ability to control the market by himself.

[Hamza2424]

How can you be so sure that they do not really long or short? Because I am very interested to learn more about it because I made that reply because it seems obvious to me because whales are not holders they just want money they are manipulators and why would they not short or long there BTC or any assets they have to make more money. They are money makers. I am not talking about all the whales because some whales are just sitting there not taking part in such activities.

From my calculations out of 10, the type of whales you are talking about there will be 1 or 2 hard who are gonna behave like that in the market. Becasue most of the whales in the market always take their entry by particularly considering Bitcoin or any asset over a Long time frame, they mostly focus their analysis on the Fundamental and Descriptive nature. 

Answering your question why not make more money, here Buddy I never said Whales don't Long or Short their positions, they do but as I said they don't really take part in the manipulation of the market. Their Long and Short Position is also for the Long term most of the time. Focus on the word Whale already having a 1K+ BTC would they like to risk their assets by risking in the day trade for some extra bucks? They would prefer putting their assets on collateral and buying more BTC from the Loan valuation mostly.

[Franctoshi]

do institutions trade like this? :
like buying futures long position(leverages) at $10 and driving spot price(by huge capital) upwards like something about $10.5 and selling futures at $10.5 and making profits because of leverage.

do institutions or whales trade like that?

There was this article I was reading online about Coinbase which the story is related to this kind of stuff, according to the article it was accusing Coinbase of shorting the market (Bitcoin) all this while via derivative and a kind of sometimes may borrow some crypto asset, and short the market to buy at a cheaper price and later repay.

https://finbold.com/coinbase-has-been-shorting-the-crypto-market-public-reports-indicate/

[CarnagexD]

You mean for example an institution to buy bitcoin at $26000 in spot market, manipulating the price to go higher, open long position in the derivative market with 2x leverage or more so that they can gain more?

Bitcoin market is not easily manipulated and I do not think institutions can think that way if they do not want to lose and see unexpected things to happen.

It's not manipulation, it's hedging. Since institutions manage big funds and large amounts of money, every order they make creates a massive reaction in the fluctuation in price. They short in certain rice points and then also buy to regain back their losses. As their orders are pouring in, retail traders would also put up their orders that's where institution takes away the money of normal and retail traders.

[jeraldskie11]

does institutions trade like this? :
like buying futures long position(leverages) at $10 and driving spot price(by huge capital) to upwards like something about $10.5 and selling futures at $10.5 and making profits because of leverage.

do institutions or whales trade like that?

The big move in the market was cause by institutions. They are so smart and they can also manipulate in some point in the market. Manipulation usually happens in the cryptocurrencies with a low market cap. Meaning, the most volatile coins can be easily manipulated. You can see in the market in a candlesticks with long wicks. However, institutions can't always make the price go what they want because there are many institutions trade against them.

I think they won't trade the way that is mentioned above but I believe they usually do hedging.

[Uruhara]

I don't have much experience with futures trading. But I noticed that more market manipulation is done by spreading positive or positive news by turns. That affects the market price due to fear or hype. As for direct manipulation of the market, I think it requires a very large amount of funds. But yeah I'm also thinking like the OP is thinking. But that's usually done on altcoins that initially have a low marketcup. usually the characteristics are that the price moves up without any news as a strong reason.