Request: Disable merits in the Wall Observer thread

[DVlog]

Some of my local board members rank up pretty fast. it was hard for me to believe how they did it when i saw the way they posted. When I checked their source of merit i found that it was WHO. They just keep posting memes and sharing tweets. Some even got merit by saying a joke when i haven't found any logic behind them. If getting merit is that easy then it will lose its value.

You're somehow right that there are many members of the local boards that rank up pretty fast, but that doesn't mean that they get all of the merits from WO thread because some of those members also get good amount of merits from their own local boards. I don't think that they're getting those merits easily. Even in WO thread there are many members who won't get good any merits even they create more than 10 posts a day, but there are only a few lucky ones who get a dozen of merits when their post is liked by @El duderino_ and I think those guys are very lucky because @El Duderino_ is known for his attribute of distributing merits to the posts he finds worthy of getting merits. That doesn't means he gives merits to all those craps the members are posting on WO thread, but to the only ones that are somehow related to Bitcoin.

Even the ones posting memes may get some merits from WO, but that really doesn't mean that those members aren't putting efforts in getting those merits. In fact they're trying their best to find those memes and post it on WO thread to get those merits, and that's the main reason that @OP of this thread wanted the merit system to be disabled on WO thread. Even-through their approach also requires some efforts, but they aren't learning anything in the process and such members won't be able to create good quality posts even if they receive so many merits in a short span of time.

Yeah, especially those board who has their merit source. When i visit some of the local boards it seems they send merits to every new topic. It is very easy to get merit in the local board if your board has a merit source i think. Especially india and pakistani board members are very generous towards their fellow comrades. I have no idea what is happening around here. Lol

[1714292999]

1714292999

[LFC_Bitcoin]

I’m kinda uncomfortable seeing many lower ranked accounts in this thread trying to be outspoken and having an opinion on a thread that they have taken very little part in and means nothing to them.

I’ve been here since 2014 and the WO is important to me. I’ve met around a dozen people from the thread in real life multiple times. We have a brotherhood away from the forum and arrange regular meets all over Europe.

It feels a bit, I dunno, tacky to have, forgive me for saying this, no mark accounts trying to decide what happens in what I feel is a gold medal, historic bitcointalk thread. I don’t feel like most of the people in this thread should have any say over what happens in the WO. In other words if you haven’t been a huge part of it butt out. Obviously the likes of nutildah have a valid opinion but most people in this thread shouldn’t have a say at all.
Maybe the OG’s of the thread should be the only guys with a say on what happens going forward.

As for the question, it is a bit annoying to see all the newbies posting in the WO. It’s one of the reasons why I’m not as active in there as I once was. I voted ‘No’ though, I don’t think Meriting in the WO should be outlawed. Most of us know a shit posting, merit whore when we see one.

[suchmoon]

Maybe the OG’s of the thread should be the only guys with a say on what happens going forward.

Good point. Maybe the merits received in WO should be visible/usable (e.g. with regards to rank) only in WO.

[eXPHorizon]

I seriously think that everyone should stop whinging and complaining about this topic and leave it how it is.

[LoyceV]

I don’t feel like most of the people in this thread should have any say over what happens in the WO.

Don't worry about it, they have no say in it

Maybe the OG’s of the thread should be the only guys with a say on what happens going forward.

They have no say in it either

As for the question, it is a bit annoying to see all the newbies posting in the WO. It’s one of the reasons why I’m not as active in there as I once was.

Why not just click Ignore on them?

[NotATether]

I just mercilessly Ignore merit farmers.

Zero tolerance.

This is the only practical solution since I don't see admins adding merit restriction features ever.

[joker_josue]

Well... I'm not going to read 4 pages of posts. But, I would like to share my opinion on the question raised.

Each user and the merits to whomever they want, wherever they want and whenever they want. If the post to whom the merit is given has a lot or little quality, it can even be a question. But what is good for me may be different for someone else. Although generally speaking, the whole community has the same concept.

Now, if there are users who misuse their smerits, it's unfortunate. But, we cannot harm those who use them well.

He noticed that sometimes, an exaggerated and wrong concept was generated, who and certain boards "should" exist less given merits. What is wrong. A user can make a good merit post on any board.

Therefore, as it has happened until now, and the distribution of merits is free, it must continue like this.

[nutildah]

As much as I would like more features like this, it would be very bad. It gives users power over other users.

So does self-moderated threads, and so does the Report button, yet those exist...

I don't see the big problem with disabling merits in one particular thread where signatures are already disabled for the reason of trying to promote honest discussion. Merit farming has led to a flood of insincere posters (many of them likely alt accounts) who don't care about anything other than sig campaign earnings. The sucking up to & fawning over loose merit givers there is disgusting... To see it being rewarded is just ridiculous, and merit sources should know better than to encourage that type of behavior. Thankfully most of them do.

[uchegod-21]

I understand the reason Op is making this kind of bold proposal. If there are people that sends merits to their alts in the WO thread, I cannot tell but if we feel that there is unnecessary merit flow in the WO thread, what happens is to call the attention of the merit sources to it. If merits are given to merit worthy posts, that wouldn't be a bit of a problem. If there are 1000 quality posts a day in the WO thread, 20,000 merits can flow there.
If the people sending these merits are not merit sources, they should also be called out for sending merits to relatively low quality posts. I do not support deactivating merits in the WO because that is the most remarkable thread in the forum.

[hugeblack]

I did not read the responses above, but I will return to them later and perhaps change a few of the convictions below.


Although I agree that the abuse of merits is clear in WO and that it has become a way for many to easily rank-up by copying and pasting from the Internet, but the problem is with the people who send those sMerits. Therefore, since signature campaigns do not appear there, there will probably be an additional rule regarding spam, and if the problem is not resolved, then disabling merits is the last solution.

Personally, I think of solutions like:

 - Communicate with those who send merits in private and tell them how harmful they are.
 - Restrictions such as the maximum number of merits per month or for a specific rank.
 - local blacklist: Votes to ban accounts from participating.
 - disabke merits.

[goldkingcoiner]

Merit farming in the WO thread has gotten way out of hand.

Its been a problem for years now but really ramped up this year. Although I can't prove it, I strongly suspect we're now seeing merit farmers creating alt accounts which they use to send merits back to their main accounts, with the end goal being to enroll as many alts in signature campaigns as they can.

The typical merit farmer post is a copy/pasted tweet from a large bitcoin-focused Twitter account, complete with picture and (often in smaller text) the word "source" with a link to the tweet. These accounts are literally just taking popular tweets and pasting them in WO for no other reason than to get merits. You'll see them on just about every single page of the thread this year.

This type of post is bad for a few reasons:

 - It is a distraction that dilutes honest conversation between good faith participants.
 - It is lazy, dishonest, and often wholly unnecessary.
 - It lends to promotion of a culture of cheating.

The meriting of these posts is creating a positive feedback system where merit farmers are encouraged to continue this behavior... as a result the only skill they're actually developing is how to extract merits from senior WO posters.

The simple solution to the problem is to disable the meriting of WO posts. Much like how signatures were disabled in that thread, it will discourage spammers from flooding the thread.

While WO seems to be the place where most crap posts get merited for no reason, there are other similar places like that on the other sub-forums. As I see it, the most merit farming trolls are newbie accounts who copy/paste twitter garbage, generic memes or random crypto-related images. Perhaps if we disable posting in certain places for low level accounts then most of the problem sorts itself out? That way they would have to gather earnestly earned merit from newbie permitted areas first. And having them all in one place, we could more easily filter out the merit farmer newbies from the helpful, merit-deserving newbies. Basically we make it harder for the merit-farmers to get out of newbie jail without actually being useful to the community.

Furthermore,

I think that disabling merits in WO is unfair to those who have a large number in merits in WO and are not merit farming. Around 30-38% of my posts are in WO and while I admit to shitposting every now and then, I feel that I have earned most of my merits in WO rightfully, with somewhat decent informative or conversation-productive posts.

veteran accounts and merit sources need to hand out merit more responsibly. The only reason we see such WO merit farming is because merit farmers get rewarded for their crap posts. And there is too much merit going around, it feels like we are in a merit inflation.

[LoyceV]

Perhaps if we disable posting in certain places for low level accounts then most of the problem sorts itself out?

Read theymos' post on how harmful it is to limit newbie participation.

[eXPHorizon]

Perhaps if we disable posting in certain places for low level accounts then most of the problem sorts itself out?

Read theymos' post on how harmful it is to limit newbie participation.

These do not get it or despise it cause they got that "I can you cant" Mentality. They farmed Merits through that same means but do not want anyone else to do the same.

[nutildah]

Read theymos' post on how harmful it is to limit newbie participation.

But we're only talking about ONE thread, not the entire forum. Its one fricken thread with a loose moderation standard that is being manipulated by shitposters for the sake of earning merits so they can further their shitposting habits. How about instead of restricting low level accounts from posting there we disable the meriting of these accounts or halt merits from the thread altogether?

I think that disabling merits in WO is unfair to those who have a large number in merits in WO and are not merit farming. Around 30-38% of my posts are in WO and while I admit to shitposting every now and then, I feel that I have earned most of my merits in WO rightfully, with somewhat decent informative or conversation-productive posts.

I agree with you, but you're already a Legendary... You don't need any more merits. I realize some campaigns have the 'how many merits earned in the last xx days part' but any manager who reads your posts knows you're a step above the average applicant.

veteran accounts and merit sources need to hand out merit more responsibly. The only reason we see such WO merit farming is because merit farmers get rewarded for their crap posts. And there is too much merit going around, it feels like we are in a merit inflation.

This is also very true.

[Rikafip]

And there is too much merit going around, it feels like we are in a merit inflation.

Current amount of merit shared is similar to the 2018 but the difference is that compared to then, amount of posts dropped down 75% (and will continue to drop) and maybe even more which then makes it much easier for alt accounts to farm merit.

While merit system is made to stop shitposter ever reaching higher rank, maybe we reached a point where there's simply too much merit being shared around (speaking generally, there are still some parts of the forum that are undermerited) which then makes situations like in WO possible so maybe its time to adjust the amount of merit shared to the current situation.

Read theymos' post on how harmful it is to limit newbie participation.

Maybe I misunderstood theymos, but I always thought that by that he meant that he won't restrict newbies accessing large parts of the forum and only limit them to a certain board, because we have Ivory Tower where low levels can't access meaning he is willing to restrict them to some degree. 

[yahoo62278]

I would agree that it's a good idea, but what will be the new merit farming thread? I pretty much think it will just move to a new thread and we will still have the same issue. Look at the vote, I wonder how many who voted no are part of the farming? I think the only way to make merit different would be policing it, but that's just going to create new issues as well.

[SamReomo]

I think the only way to make merit different would be policing it, but that's just going to create new issues as well.

I think merit policing can cause way more issues in the forum than merit farming. It's a sad truth but the merit farming can't be eradicated 100% even if we take every action against it. Even if we implement new rules for merit sources but that can make the situations worse than they're right now. I don't want to take this topic very longer but if we closely speculate the situation of merit farming on this forum then we will have to disable meriting system on many boards and sub-boards not only the WO thread. I know that there are many posts in WO thread which really doesn't deserve the merits that they received but there are more posts in some other boards where newbies and low rank users got so many merits with a few  posts only.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5185736.300

The above thread by LoyceV is the way to check all those members who got so many merits without putting much efforts.
There are some members of the forum who are trying their best to create helpful content on daily basis but still they aren't getting the merits that they deserve to get.

The real question should be that how to prevent the misuse of merit system by the newbie or low rank members? The answer to that question should be to pose a limit on number of merits a user can receive when his/her account is newbie in rank and such limit should also be posed on those accounts who are newly created. That way the merit farming can be controlled, but I'm quite sure that many members would oppose a system like that and that's why implementing of a system like that may also not be possible due to many opposing votes.

[_BlackStar]

I agree that there has been merit abuse in the WO thread so far regardless of how bad it is now - but disabling merit in the thread is not the decision I would most hope for. Merit sources need to make adjustments between who actually posts to discuss something or who posts to get merit. It's true that not fun - but disabling the merit system there is a bit harsh in my opinion.

Tightening distribution is the solution that I think about the most - but all of that must be supported by each merit source to go according to plan.

[nutildah]

I would agree that it's a good idea, but what will be the new merit farming thread? I pretty much think it will just move to a new thread and we will still have the same issue.

That's fine, I don't care if it moves to another thread. Every other thread has more stern moderation standards, and the offending shitposts I described in the first post here would be deleted as spam. Just tired of seeing my favorite thread being taken advantage of by an ever-expanding army of merit farmers.

Look at the vote, I wonder how many who voted no are part of the farming?

Probably a lot, and I considered that. But the fact that 30 users voted "yes" so far is also somewhat compelling... Its not a completely lopsided poll.

[Antisthenes]

How about instead of restricting low level accounts from posting there we disable the meriting of these accounts or halt merits from the thread altogether?

How about you actually read the above post? Do allow me:

They farmed Merits through that same means but do not want anyone else to do the same.

Spot on, me thinks. +1000 merits.


That said, y’ all know how I feel about the merit system in general: