Request: Disable merits in the Wall Observer thread

[joker_josue]

If I can get some time, maybe can do that this week. I'll try, I don't promise.

Yes, you should definitely do that when you have free time.

As promised, here is the file, compiling the total number of merits received by each user, and the total number of merits that each user gave.
File: https://1drv.ms/x/s!AuWqcTrLK_TciKVm8Z0GKtmpF1rBpQ?e=qyx6gP

Based on this data, let's be honest: do you really think that merit hunting users are really managing to do this on WO?

[SamReomo]

Based on this data, let's be honest: do you really think that merit hunting users are really managing to do this on WO?

You have done a really great thing and now everyone can see that how many merits were sent and received by each user. I really appreciate your efforts on compiling that list because it will be really good to clear doubts. Based on that data I don't think that merit hunters are targeting WO thread that much. Most of the merits were sent to reputed members of the forum  and I don't think that anything is wrong with such meriting approach because someone can send his/her smerits to posts of the ones whose style they like.

The data clearly shows that most of the merits are given to reputed members of the WO thread and I was more than sure that @El duderino_ will be on top in the list, and he's actually on top in both merit sending as well as merit receiving list. All top merit senders and merit receivers on that list are the reputed members of the forum and a few of them spend most of their time on WO thread only. I guess other would also think similarly after going through that list, and I'm quite sure that it will help to clear some doubts.

[Hueristic]

If I can get some time, maybe can do that this week. I'll try, I don't promise.

Yes, you should definitely do that when you have free time.

As promised, here is the file, compiling the total number of merits received by each user, and the total number of merits that each user gave.
File: https://1drv.ms/x/s!AuWqcTrLK_TciKVm8Z0GKtmpF1rBpQ?e=qyx6gP

Based on this data, let's be honest: do you really think that merit hunting users are really managing to do this on WO?

Looks like a list of the Cool Kids to me.

And why the fuck did you make me trust Microshaft Javascript in order to fucking see this data?!?!?!?!

[joker_josue]

The data clearly shows that most of the merits are given to reputed members of the WO thread and I was more than sure that @El duderino_ will be on top in the list, and he's actually on top in both merit sending as well as merit receiving list. All top merit senders and merit receivers on that list are the reputed members of the forum and a few of them spend most of their time on WO thread only. I guess other would also think similarly after going through that list, and I'm quite sure that it will help to clear some doubts.

Exactly! This ends up being in line with what I mentioned previously.
Out of more than 150k merits given, +20% of this value was given by @El duderino_. He, in turn, is one of the biggest merit givers on the entire forum. Let's say that he is not consistent in the merits he gives, just because he is in the WO? It certainly suits your criteria to the type of topic you are on.

[philipma1957]

this is top 77 on the list:









For the record the WO was being trashed by twitter quotes (About 120 days of it) and images that 3 or 4 of the top merit givers were giving merits.

It was an issue.

Do I think they were feeding bots and alts so they could have a dozen signature accounts nope.

Do I think they were being taken advantage of by sleazy  farmers maybe.

I still voted no.

And if you check me you will see I stopped giving the twitter/bots/alts/farmers merits around 90 days may 95 days ago.

[dragonvslinux]

If I can get some time, maybe can do that this week. I'll try, I don't promise.

Yes, you should definitely do that when you have free time.

As promised, here is the file, compiling the total number of merits received by each user, and the total number of merits that each user gave.
File: https://1drv.ms/x/s!AuWqcTrLK_TciKVm8Z0GKtmpF1rBpQ?e=qyx6gP

Based on this data, let's be honest: do you really think that merit hunting users are really managing to do this on WO?

Nice data! Looks a healthy who's who of Wall Observer participants to me. Forgot there were so many, though enough of them are MIA these days.

Chart buddy otherwise didn't make the Top 50 cut, which is reassuring.

[scorrem]

The forum already has the option to report. Restricting giving merit in one section will make these members move to other sections of the forum. So better option is report them so that their account is flagged red and becomes useless.

[Hueristic]

The forum already has the option to report. Restricting giving merit in one section will make these members move to other sections of the forum. So better option is report them so that their account is flagged red and becomes useless.

[nutildah]

Poll has finally ended. 38 for Yes and 59 No. Not completely surprising, but for the 38 people who voted Yes, well let me just say I am proud of you.

There's been a considerable dropoff in merit farming in the WO since I opened this thread (although it still exists to a certain degree). I reckon I will re-open and bump it if it picks back up again.

At least Duderino seems like he's considering being more selective with merits, so that's good.

Just a reminder to all merit sources, you don't need to give away all your source merits! Ideally you are giving them out for good posts that demonstrate the slightest inkling of original thought, and not just for copy/pasted tweets about number going up, or because somebody expresses admiration for you or agrees with you. I dunno, I guess the takeaway is don't let yourself be so easily fooled and manipulated. Its happened to me a few times, nobody's perfect, but let's not consistently reward low effort copy/paste posts. It just leads to a multiplication of such posts in what is arguably the best thread on the forum.

[nutildah]

Reopening this thread as I couldn't think of a better place to post this.

So I got a PM from an account asking if I would reconsider a neutral trust I left them for unattributed copy/pasting in the WO thread, which would be considered plagiarism if it happened in any other thread. I am quite certain the person behind this account runs several other accounts as most of their posts are designed to extract merits from particular merit sources, which suggests they have a high level of familiarity with the forum.

I started reviewing their posts and noticed a pattern... let's see if you can also see it:

...

I agree with everything you said...

...

You’re absolutely right...

...

Yeah, I see your point...

...

Definitely, you made a strong point...

...

True...

...

Solid point...

...

You make a solid point, and I see the logic...

...

Yeah, I get you completely on this one...

Tons more posts like this... Basically at least 25% of their posts are sucking up to JJG or other merit sources.

Perhaps my neutral trust on this account was worded too harshly, but it wasn't a one-off thing for them.

15 years ago yesterday, "29/7/2025''.. Satoshi Nakamoto said: "If you don't believe me or don't get it, I don't have time to try to convince you, sorry."

Today, Bitcoin is now a global currency and store of value..

I mean, is there any conceivable doubt that this is word-for-word plagiarism? For some reason this is OK in the WO thread, and it just encourages merit farming in that thread.

So anyway, I would like the opinion of others for this issue: should I delete the neutral tag as requested, or not? Keep in mind I am certain they have other accounts and the end goal is to get yet another account in another signature campaign.

[Vod]

Merit farming in the WO thread has gotten way out of hand.

I have to reply to give you my support.  Although I see many sources giving 5,10,20+ smerit to posts, my posts can't even get 1.  Even when I can reward a meritable post, how much is 1 merit on a post now anyways?

[lovesmayfamilis]

The same thing happens in the "buy, buy...blah, blah" threads. Page-long JJG quotations and further paraphrasing of his words above can be seen in dozens of so-called "newbies." For many sycophants, the phrase "I agree," although they were talking about themselves as a newbie a minute ago, looks not only funny but also disgusting. How do they know whether to agree or not if you've only been on the forum for two days? I am surprised at the patience of those who read this thread, although it is clear that no one reads it.

Therefore, I would not delete the tag; it is neutral, and the owner has earned it by right. Newbies who learn about the WO thread and all merit-distribution threads should be aware that their stories about their newness are not credible, as they are likely fabricated. And later, when they are caught, their assurances that they realized and will not do it again should be tested by time and not by tears in PM the next day after receiving the tag.

one of them:

I will make sure that this kind of thing doesn't happen in the future.

You are so shamelessly full of shit, its not even funny.

[Don Pedro Dinero]

I haven't read all 8 pages of the thread, but I read the first and last ones to see if anyone had mentioned the idea that had occurred to me. I've seen “+1 WO merit” mentioned a few times in the thread, as a joke, like many of the posts there. One idea would be to create a sort of WO merit that could only be used there. But given that the problem seems to have been reduced, that theymos doesn't seem to care much about how merits are distributed (as long as they're not sold or anything like that), and that it would have to be technically implemented, I don't think it will happen, but since it occurred to me, I wanted to mention it.

I have to reply to give you my support.  Although I see many sources giving 5,10,20+ smerit to posts, my posts can't even get 1.  Even when I can reward a meritable post, how much is 1 merit on a post now anyways?

The thing is, merit distribution is relative. Often, someone is given a lot of merit for a post simply to raise their rank. Other merit sources give a minimum of 4 by default to any post they deem worthy. And in the end, there is always some subjectivity in whether or not to give merit to a post, and how much.

[JollyGood]

It is word for word plagiarism, for that sort of conduct members have received bans and negative tags.

As for the quotes related to that kanftka account, he is serious about trying to get merits in order to rank up as soon as possible.

He is following JJG around, posting compliments in the hope he might get merits for any subsequent posts. The desire to join signature campaigns is their sole purpose to register therefore they will do anything to achieve that goal. When you multiply that behaviour with multiple farmed accounts, it provides an idea of how big the problem actually is and the WO thread plays a huge part as it allows them a free hand to operate seeking merits.

~
I mean, is there any conceivable doubt that this is word-for-word plagiarism? For some reason this is OK in the WO thread, and it just encourages merit farming in that thread.

So anyway, I would like the opinion of others for this issue: should I delete the neutral tag as requested, or not? Keep in mind I am certain they have other accounts and the end goal is to get yet another account in another signature campaign.

[OgNasty]

I would argue that the Wall Observer is the only relevant thread on this site for a vast majority of the Bitcoin community.  I'm not sure that nerfing it is the right thing to do.  If people are complaining that they aren't getting merits in other places on the forum, maybe they should try posting relevant analysis or something of value.  If you aren't getting merits, that's the community letting you know that you aren't providing any value and maybe you need to look at yourself instead of trying to find ways to take merits from the people actually providing value to the community.

[Vod]

If you aren't getting merits, that's the community letting you know that you aren't providing any value and maybe you need to look at yourself instead of trying to find ways to take merits from the people actually providing value to the community.

  The community wants to give the merits, they just don't have any to give!  Maybe look at the accounts that keep passing the merit to each other, for whatever reason, instead of to the posts that are meritable and providing value.  The wall observer thread is garbage, but it is relevant to the greedy part of society (a striking minority in the Bitcoin community).   The vast majority of Bitcoin users I know are content to use their coin and enjoy the volatility, rather than HODL and constrict Bitcoin adoption.    Please realize you don't need to insult every one each time you want to write your individual opinion for sats. 

I'm not sure that nerfing it is the right thing to do.

How would removing merits from the section weaken it?   Everyone posts in their best interest and there are very few posts of quality.  But here's the kicker -the backscratching that happens in that thread (you want to hodl, I want to hodl, let's swap merit) doesn't stay there.  That excess merit spills over to the rest of the forum, making our normal merit contributions irrelevant.    I'm sure removing merit from that section is the best thing for the majority of bitcointalk users.

[stwenhao]

Just a reminder to all merit sources, you don't need to give away all your source merits!

If some source cannot spend all new merits, then usually it means, that their merit allocation is too high. But yes, by spending less than they could, they just give a signal, that their allocation should be lowered.

how much is 1 merit on a post now anyways?

And how much is one like? It is not something to be traded. In the past, people wrote "+1", instead of sending merits. So, how much is worth "I agree" or "+1", inside a post? It has no monetary value, it is only there to improve social interactions, because humans have emotions, and they are not bots.

Also, I think meriting 50 different posts with a single merit is much better, than sending 50 merits to a single post. Because then, you can look at merit history of some people you like, and you always end up reading a lot of good posts, instead of reading only a few great ones.

Another thing, is that if you give a single merit, then all complaints from people around will be binary: they can disagree with you about the fact, that you merited something, but they cannot accuse you of sending too many merits. There is a reason, why Satoshi always wrote "+1", and never "+50". Not to mention the fact, that sometimes you may merit something, and want to take it back later, if it will turn out, that you were wrong, merited some AI spammer, or some misleading answer, which is technically incorrect. Then, if you send just one merit, the "damage" is quite limited.

The community wants to give the merits, they just don't have any to give!

For me, it was always the opposite: I always had more merits, than I needed.

And even when I had none, then it was quite simple solution to that: just try harder. Write better posts. And it always worked, after some time.

Usually, there are more than enough merits. The bigger problem is to find good posts. Because sources always have plenty of merits every month, but the same cannot be said about good posts: they appear every sometimes, instead of coming always at regular intervals. And there are a lot of topics, which are not yet described, so there is still a lot of content, that I would like to see, but it requires some effort, to make such posts (and nobody did it yet, because forum crawlers for some phrases still give zero results, or only single sentences, instead of detailed description).

I'm sure removing merit from that section is the best thing for the majority of bitcointalk users.

And I'm sure, that if it will be done, then people will merit posts from anywhere else, just to avoid these restrictions (which is what happened on other forums). Of course, in other places, the situation was much worse than here, because they also had "negative reputation points" (equivalent of proposed "demerit" here) and it was one of the worst idea, because people constantly send "-20" (they have a range of points from -20 to +20, where everyone is a "source"; I think our merit system is much better, than their "reputation system").

[bitbollo]

...
 If you aren't getting merits, that's the community letting you know that you aren't providing any value and maybe you need to look at yourself instead of trying to find ways to take merits from the people actually providing value to the community.

Wait a minute OG.
There are clearly some patterns in some "communities" of the forum where people get rewarded for crappy comments and useless posts/questions.
Some users, are clearly using merit system to grow their sockpuppets accounts, farming between them and then get enrolled in a signature campaing, make frauds, and so on.

I am able to earn 0 merit... in my local section. 
All my posts worthless ? ALL ?!? ....
And casually all people that write "yes thank you" or "yes I agree with you" .... These deserve merits because I have said something useful or something right?

Come on... it's evident that some "users" are using this specific power to enrich themself and probably to keep some sections like shit.
There are dozens of these accounts with no contribution at all with a ratio of 90-95% of the post merited...
 
Is that because they are so good to say "thank you" ? I don't need the answer since proofs speaks by themselves....
But it must be clear that if you defend a scammer you're defending all scammers.

[nutildah]

The wall observer thread is garbage

I disagree with this statement and if I thought it was garbage then I wouldn't care about the merit farmers there lowering the quality of discussion. Its a bit more sophisticated of a place than most others on this forum, IMHO.

The vast majority of Bitcoin users I know are content to use their coin and enjoy the volatility, rather than HODL and constrict Bitcoin adoption.

I actually fall into this category and have always been of the opinion that Bitcoin was born to be spent. However, I've developed a camaraderie with the regulars there over the years. I appreciate the witty conversation, the humor & jokes, the cultural references and occasionally the spirited discussion. I just don't hold it against anyone who thinks HODL is the way.

I'm sure removing merit from that section is the best thing for the majority of bitcointalk users.

I think this as well but the thread poll results would suggest we are in the minority.

[NotATether]

I would argue that the Wall Observer is the only relevant thread on this site for a vast majority of the Bitcoin community.  I'm not sure that nerfing it is the right thing to do.  If people are complaining that they aren't getting merits in other places on the forum, maybe they should try posting relevant analysis or something of value.  If you aren't getting merits, that's the community letting you know that you aren't providing any value and maybe you need to look at yourself instead of trying to find ways to take merits from the people actually providing value to the community.

Do you think I should make a "WO Explorer" on Talksearch to help with the thread navigation?