The fate of the leftover fund

[1miau]

I'm a sucker for strict rules, but it's difficult to take all possible scenarios into account before they happen. This is one of the reasons I don't actively offer escrow services (although I've done it a few times when asked). Yahoo62278's suggestion is a good disclaimer to add if it happens again.

Definitely, covering all possible scenarios is a very difficult task but at least covering 95% is already a benefit. Even if it takes some time to figure out how to do it because we'll always have a learning curve.

Maybe every project doing a Signature campaign can provide an escrow fund and in case of an exit scam, losses could be covered.

Eddie's post comes to mind again:

Should never have put the temporary illusion of safety above personal liberty..
~
This forum started acting like protecting idiots is more important than letting users express their free wills..
~
A new startup can’t come here and start a signature campaign for example without completely being bullied into “trusting” some escrow they have probably never heard of, so heaven forbid they couldn’t possibly scam some users willing to take the risk..

What eddie13 said there, sounds good but doesn't work in reality for most cases. And nobody gets "bullied". 
Yes, services should be able to decide which way to go - but some ways will end in a big mess.
We have seen that for signature campaigns managed in-house, like YoBit or right now 1xbit and the result is not desirable.
Bitcointalk recommends to select a trusted campaign manager to avoid spamming the forum due to Shitposts or similar issues. No one complains that selecting a campaign manager is something bad or services are getting "bullied" to select a proven campaign manager.
Selecting a know campaign manager is beneficial for the service, the forum and all participants.

Same applies to arrange an escrow fund.

Of course, providing some BTC into a trusted escrow for signature campaigns should be voluntarily - and will very likely attract more participants compared to a competitor, where no such escrow fund is offered.

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[dkbit98]

The purpose of this thread isn't to put some sauce on the issue. The issue has been in discussion randomly in ChipMixer ANN thread, in a thread in Meta. That's why I thought of creating a new thread so that users can discuss here instead of being off topic in other discussion.

I totally forgot that something similar happened with CM, only difference is that WW website is still working (sort of).
We can have many theories and speculations what happened with both of them, but we know for a fact they are both gone from forum.
Coins in CM were meant for future campaign payments, so it would probably be fair to see them equally distributed to ex-participants (if they want it).
Situation is a bit different with WW because funds are used as safety backup, but I don't see any reason to keep this funds frozen forever.

The deal was between Campaign manager and the project owner, none of the campaigners get anything (or at least demand anything). Have you been paid for the week/weeks you wore the signature. The answer is yes. Case close for campaigners.

Why should managers and escrows be any different?
They also got paid for their work as they agreed, so I don't understand why would they deserve bonus money...
I never saw any manager posting in public how much they earn, but they sure posted how much money they lost when scam project hired them and than gone missing  
I think it's better to have partial terms clearly posted in public to avoid future calamities, because I am sure we are going to see more meltdowns and busted projects in future, one way or another.
For example, in case something happens with XXX service, this ___ will happen with leftover funds, that way all parties will have more clarity.
Small change, but it makes a huge difference.

[GazetaBitcoin]

I would not like that my post to look like some pressure placed on purpose on DarkStar_'s shoulders, but I believe that, at least, he should come up with a resolution for the funds he is keeping.

The situation is even more intriguing, as the funds remaining after CM was seized were moved on August 18th to another address, which holds 50 BTC. The entire amount moved was 1.30807482 BTC. CM's address used for payments was 1ChipWGhJtEWCeSq3cra4HmKhvYqe8Tvty.

At same time, this address also hold some fork coins, such as 1.99 bcash for instance (I did not check for other fork coins, but I believe they are also available). In any case, the amount is low.

At least as long as the 1.3 BTC were kept inside the same address I thought that DarkStar_ has some plans with them and, perhaps, he would take a decision at a later time and come up with a few words about his decision. But seeing the funds were moved and there is still just silence from his side -- this brings a lot of questions...

I will repeat myself -- I don't want this to sound as an extra pressure for DS_. Perhaps he also does not know what to do with the money. And, at same time, I believe that is a very trustworthy forum user. But a few words from him would be nice.


Regarding the other funds, kept by MJ / HHampuz, I believe they are still kept in case other victims will show up. But again, it would be helpful if they would also think about a plan for what to do with those funds in case no other victims will show up for a certain amount of time from now on.

[chigo]

I think escrows and managers should put up a disclaimer saying if money goes unclaimed for a certain period of time, then the companies forfeit the funds. As long as the person who has the funds did their job anyways. We cannot really expect them to just hold the funds for years and hope someone shows up. Just my opinion

It makes sense, just imagine if the owner of the fund has not shown up for years, should the owner of the escrow have to keep silent about managing the money, even though it is very likely that in the future someone will appear trying to take the money, I think the manager of the escrow should make a rule that the fund those that are not taken for 1 year will be deducted, then accumulated if the owner of the funds has not taken them for many years.

[bananaunana]

I totally forgot that something similar happened with CM, only difference is that WW website is still working (sort of).
We can have many theories and speculations what happened with both of them, but we know for a fact they are both gone from forum.
Coins in CM were meant for future campaign payments, so it would probably be fair to see them equally distributed to ex-participants (if they want it).

dkbit98 is right, should have been distributed during last payment directly among CM campaign members right away.
It is not really difficult what to do. It is Bitcoin left from CM campaign.
Send it to campaign members, manager keeps managing fee, done.
Issue solved.
Sometimes, it is not very complicated.

I don't know about WW money, have not read enough to make a statement here.
Just really concerning how after WW promised HHampuz to come back and solve problems but it did not happen.

[Mr.right85]

I think escrows and managers should put up a disclaimer saying if money goes unclaimed for a certain period of time, then the companies forfeit the funds. As long as the person who has the funds did their job anyways. We cannot really expect them to just hold the funds for years and hope someone shows up. Just my opinion

Better still, escrow is a service that has more to do with safeguarding a fund for a fee and don't necessarily have much to do with the business of the company. À term like this would be to the detriment of the company and personally, that ain't such a fair practice.
Since one can't predict what strikes might be fall a company in tbe future, I'll rather edit your suggestion in quote to something that takes the nature of a periodic deduction;

* In the event that a campaign or project is paused with left over funds, there would be periodic debit on available funds in _% within _% of holding until the promotion is resumed.

After all, your deal is to hold and not mind there business.

Either ways, participants in there promotions don't get to decide. You worked with them gor a week, your paid for the week, that's your take!

[NotATether]

1. We all know whirlwind.money has left no path for a comeback. They aren't active for a long time now. But what they have left; $40k DAI in escrow with minerjones. MJ has already distributed more than half of the funds and is still holding ~$17k. What's going to happen to this? Who will be the owner of this fund if whirlwind never  comes back?

That fund was a collateral for if whirlwind suddenly disappeared (they did), and if they ever come back, this is all they are entitled to.

2. ChipMixer has been seized and DarkStar_ said all the outstanding payment will be sent. Has he sent the outstanding payment? I can't see any update on the thread. Nevertheless, there was ~1.30 Bitcoin on the ChipMixer signature campaign escrow address which has been later sent to another address. Who has received the fund?

See:

If it is for him, according to his last comment that the payments for the last week will be sent, did you receive any payments for the last week?

Yes, we all did, two weeks after the seizing event. There's no reason to talk about that anymore.

The person holding the funds in escrow has discretion to make a decision regarding the funds as he sees fit in the event that the service and contact disappears. Most likely case I think is that the outstanding balance goes to a charity maybe. It helps to avoid legal issues around the reception of funds for these services that have been unspent or improperly spent.

[Saisher]

There are some possible ways:

1. Do nothing and high likely will lost.
2. It's become an extra bonus for the escrow.
3. Share it to every users who're involved.
4. Donation e.g. this forum, the one who needs etc.

This is only possible if both parties have no deal and the escrow has no terms about leftover funds, It's for the escrow party to address or not this issue because this is a deal of two parties involved, but the escrow party could send a message to the other party or make a public announcement here specifying a claiming period or they will consider this a lost fund and a lost fund is considered finder's keeper under specific time to claim the funds and can decide on what to do with the funds.

[JollyGood]

In this thread it has not been made clear what The fate of the leftover fund will be. The Whirlwind forum representative has was last online in July 2023. Has there been any comment or statement made in any thread in the forum that can indicate what is happening (or will happen) to the remaining escrow funds?

[BitcoinGirl.Club]

Edited: Deleted for wrong understanding.

The Whirlwind forum representative has was last online in July 2023. Has there been any comment or statement made in any thread in the forum that can indicate what is happening (or will happen) to the remaining escrow funds?

If you are genuinely interested and not spamming for signature payment then go and find yourself. No one is working for you to bring you an executive summary.

It helps to avoid legal issues around the reception of funds for these services that have been unspent or improperly spent.

What possible legal issue you think it could have? I don't think we even should suggest anything. It's completely depend on the person who provided the service. Even if he decides to use the fund for his own, I see no issue.

[GazetaBitcoin]

I would not like that my post to look like some pressure placed on purpose on DarkStar_'s shoulders, but I believe that, at least, he should come up with a resolution for the funds he is keeping.

The situation is even more intriguing, as the funds remaining after CM was seized were moved on August 18th to another address, which holds 50 BTC. The entire amount moved was 1.30807482 BTC. CM's address used for payments was 1ChipWGhJtEWCeSq3cra4HmKhvYqe8Tvty.

At same time, this address also hold some fork coins, such as 1.99 bcash for instance (I did not check for other fork coins, but I believe they are also available). In any case, the amount is low.

At least as long as the 1.3 BTC were kept inside the same address I thought that DarkStar_ has some plans with them and, perhaps, he would take a decision at a later time and come up with a few words about his decision. But seeing the funds were moved and there is still just silence from his side -- this brings a lot of questions...

I will repeat myself -- I don't want this to sound as an extra pressure for DS_. Perhaps he also does not know what to do with the money. And, at same time, I believe that is a very trustworthy forum user. But a few words from him would be nice.

I am coming back on this thread, as it seems that DarkStar_ became to be sort of active again. Maybe not in term of posts, but I see that he also merited some users recently, inside his loans thread.

In case he did not see this topic while he was inactive, maybe he'll see it now...

Perhaps, for more visibility, it would be better if OP would also change topic title from "The fate of the leftover fund" to "The fate of the leftover fund from ChipMixer / WhirlWind" (although the part about Whirlwind has been solved).

[Rikafip]

I am coming back on this thread, as it seems that DarkStar_ became to be sort of active again. Maybe not in term of posts, but I see that he also merited some users recently, inside his loans thread.

What I don't understand is why he needs to say anything about leftover money. I mean, since that was signature campaign money and all signature campaign participants got paid for their work, why should we care what he does with the money, and why should he give us any explanation after all?

The way I see it, its between him and the person who hired him and gave him the money to run signature campaign.

[GazetaBitcoin]

What I don't understand is why he needs to say anything about leftover money.

It's a question asked by OP and it's a question which stays on the tip of the tongue of many other users, be them ex-CM participants or not.

[AliErkic]

Interesting how ChipMixer leftover fund is pretty legitimate and not sanctioned at all and SinBad leftover fund is not okay at all...

[digaran]

Interesting how ChipMixer leftover fund is pretty legitimate and not sanctioned at all and SinBad leftover fund is not okay at all...

You should contact the agency taking down chipmonkey mixer and consult about the funds, if they say it's Ok to spend it by distributing it among the participants, you can come here and say it's good to go, but if they say it's illegal money, then the CM should return it to the government.

But isn't obvious? They were involved in illegal activities, that money is dirty already whether anyone tells you, it should be obvious for anyone.

[GazetaBitcoin]

Interesting how ChipMixer leftover fund is pretty legitimate and not sanctioned at all and SinBad leftover fund is not okay at all...

Nobody said that CM leftover funds are legitimate or not. But the main difference between these 2 cases is the fact that one manager (Royse) came immediately with a statement for the funds from Sinbad campaign, while the other one (DarkStar_) did not bother to do same thing even 8 months after CM was shut down. As a plus, he also moved the leftover funds from CM campaign (1.3 BTC) to another address, which contains 50+ BTC. I believe that if he would come up with an explanation as well all things would become more clear about what he had (has) in his mind.

[digaran]

Well what he has on his mind is to slide that money into his own pocket, unless you can ask him for explanation here, but who cares, right? After all it WASN'T declared illegal by AUTHORITIES, so he decided to be the authority, this is normal and accepted behaviour around these woods.
~karenprime2

[Igebotz]

Interesting how ChipMixer leftover fund is pretty legitimate and not sanctioned at all and SinBad leftover fund is not okay at all...

Nobody said that CM leftover funds are legitimate or not. But the main difference between these 2 cases is the fact that one manager (Royse) came immediately with a statement for the funds from Sinbad campaign, while the other one (DarkStar_) did not bother to do same thing even 8 months after CM was shut down. As a plus, he also moved the leftover funds from CM campaign (1.3 BTC) to another address, which contains 50+ BTC. I believe that if he would come up with an explanation as well all things would become more clear about what he had (has) in his mind.

Personally, I believe that the receiving address bc1q29xpuw8mx9933xed7t6r03yge42zf2rqmevntm belongs to chipmixer, that he had a manager-to-client agreement outside the forum, and that whatever is left in escrow is between the manager and his client. We don't have right over it.

Whatever the manager does with the escrow fund once a campaign is over should not be our concern. Same with Royse777

[digaran]

Interesting how ChipMixer leftover fund is pretty legitimate and not sanctioned at all and SinBad leftover fund is not okay at all...

Nobody said that CM leftover funds are legitimate or not. But the main difference between these 2 cases is the fact that one manager (Royse) came immediately with a statement for the funds from Sinbad campaign, while the other one (DarkStar_) did not bother to do same thing even 8 months after CM was shut down. As a plus, he also moved the leftover funds from CM campaign (1.3 BTC) to another address, which contains 50+ BTC. I believe that if he would come up with an explanation as well all things would become more clear about what he had (has) in his mind.

Personally, I believe that the receiving address bc1q29xpuw8mx9933xed7t6r03yge42zf2rqmevntm belongs to chipmixer, that he had a manager-to-client agreement outside the forum, and that whatever is left in escrow is between the manager and his client. We don't have right over it.

Whatever the manager does with the escrow fund once a campaign is over should not be our concern. Same with Royse777

Well, you better keep your personal opinions separate from your official opinions "sherrif" or whatever that means anyways, besides just a heads up, you just slapped your boss with a red tag, so much of a "sherrif". Lol
And of course it's not our business, right? It's not like they have been keeping 1.3 BTC on their own address for more than 8 months.

Around here, people only have the balls to tag someone for $50-$100  any amount above that makes their head feel dizzy.
So yeah, you all should wait for orders from above, because you can't obviously decide on your own, after all, you could all be some teenagers behind a desk, for all we know, right?

[Igebotz]

Well, you better keep your personal opinions separate from your official opinions "sherrif" or whatever that means anyways, besides just a heads up, you just slapped your boss with a red tag, so much of a "sherrif". Lol
And of course it's not our business, right? It's not like they have been keeping 1.3 BTC on their own address for more than 8 months.

Around here, people only have the balls to tag someone for $50-$100  any amount above that makes their head feel dizzy.
So yeah, you all should wait for orders from above, because you can't obviously decide on your own, after all, you could all be some teenagers behind a desk, for all we know, right?

You really need to work on yourself and learn how to have peaceful discussions without being an asshole who is always trying to put others down. What Royse777 and DS have in their possession is none of your concern if you were appropriately compensated for the period of your work.

I'm not a compromised Sherrif so shove your  "official opinion" in your a$$..

Learn how to not talk about Other people's money