[100 dots] seed phrase backup

[LoyceV]

After reading n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable), Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers, Stainless steel Bitcoin Recovery Seed Plate, m2017's post and ColorSEED Or how to simply hide your seed phrase, I think it's time to post an idea I've had for a while. I came up with a combination that doesn't require a 3D-printer or laser engraving. Just a normal printer is enough.

For security:

I prefer to have 2 different backup systems in place for the same data. I do of course test both systems independently, to see if I can recover them (before funding).

Printing on paper and transparent sheets
You may need to adjust the printer setting. There are 2 types of transparent sheets, either for laser printers or for ink jets.

Template

Tape the paper sheet on a metal plate, get your center punch, and hammer the first 4 characters of each seed word with one dot per character. Then hammer 4 more dots in the red "oo" for alignment.
Remove and burn the paper sheet.
The size isn't perfect, it might be too small, but I don't want 24 seed words to take up a very large sheet of metal either. Maybe someone with better graphics skills than me can improve this.
Using exact 5 mm squares should make it possible to decipher the dots using only a ruler and a pencil, without printing on a transparent sheet. But that would make the required metal sheet size at least 13x24 cm for just 12 words. With accurate measuring, it should still be possible to decipher the dots without printing again.

100 dots
For 24 seed words, you'll end up with exactly 100 dots.

50 dots
For 12 seed words, use only "o" instead of "oo" just because 52 dots sounds less nice

Deciphering
Tape the transparent sheet at the right location, and read back the seed words.
With accurate measuring, it should be possible to decipher the dots without transparent sheet.

Hiding in plain sight
Who's going to suspect a metal plate with "random" holes to hold your money?

Do I dare use it?
I haven't tested this yet (due to the lack of clean sheet metal), and wouldn't use it as the only backup for real funds.

No spam
Self-moderated against spam. Discussion is of course allowed.

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[Findingnemo]

Transparent sheet is necessary? Why not a white sheet?

Definitely possible for anyone to try this if they want to secure seeds in a secret way but hope when someone finds the metal plate will not see this thread.

Anyone who is going to try this method needs to work on their accuracy in hammering skills ( I am too bad at that).

Seems like the idea is inspired by the famous series 'Breaking Bad' - Hector Salamanca's Communication Method.

[LoyceV]

Transparent sheet is necessary? Why not a white sheet?

Editing my text from more than a year ago failed slightly. It's fixed now.

Seems like the idea is inspired by the famous series 'Breaking Bad' - Hector Salamanca's Communication Method.

My other seed backup is burried at +34° 59′ 20″, -106° 36′ 52″.

[o_e_l_e_o]

So there are lots of companies which already produce metal plates with this hole punch design, but I'm not sure if I've seen one without the template etched on to the metal.

You can easily reduce the size of the plate and/or increase the size of each box by overlaying words 13-24 on top of words 1-12. For example, one dot in a box for words 1-12, two dots for words 13-24, or three dots if the letters overlap. Or a vertical line, horizontal line, and a cross. Or any other such arrangement. Or even do the same with 1-6 overlaid with 7-12, since 12 word seeds are perfectly adequate.

[LoyceV]

I'm not sure if I've seen one without the template etched on to the metal.

There's not much to sell that way. The etched ones are good looking, the benefit from bare steel is that the seller has no idea you own Bitcoin.

one dot in a box for words 1-12, two dots for words 13-24, or three dots if the letters overlap.

I like it If it's not too close together: 3 dots in one square and 2 dots in the next square can get confusing.

[DireWolfM14]

So there are lots of companies which already produce metal plates with this hole punch design, but I'm not sure if I've seen one without the template etched on to the metal.

You can easily reduce the size of the plate and/or increase the size of each box by overlaying words 13-24 on top of words 1-12. For example, one dot in a box for words 1-12, two dots for words 13-24, or three dots if the letters overlap. Or a vertical line, horizontal line, and a cross. Or any other such arrangement. Or even do the same with 1-6 overlaid with 7-12, since 12 word seeds are perfectly adequate.

Excellent suggestions in theory, but a hammer and a punch aren't the most precise implements, and from experience I can tell you that attempting to punch centering holes in close proximity to one another is nearly impossible without making a mess of things.  Especially if you're starting with a small substrate, like credit-card sized ones I used for my seeds.

[m2017]

That's what I like most about this forum: by sharing our experiences and opinions, knowledge and ideas, we can combine it and use it to create something new and better. The strength of the BTC-community lies precisely in this, in interaction. I'm glad to see that my useless post inspired (partially) the generation of this idea.

Hiding in plain sight
Who's going to suspect a metal plate with "random" holes to hold your money?

Who, you ask? Now every man after your post will try to see the plate with dotes.

How do you plan to store this piece of metal? Hide or fit into interior and decorative elements, furniture or other elements in the house or garage?

In my opinion, it is best to put it somewhere where it will not stand out, but will blend in with the surrounding objects. For example, a box on a desktop or cabinet in the garage along with other pieces of metal, blanks and other metal junk. I hope I haven't revealed anyone's storage secret.

Just don’t throw it away by accident like James Howells (or your relative or husband / wife), so you don’t have to tinker with the landfill.

Do I dare use it?
I haven't tested this yet (due to the lack of clean sheet metal), and wouldn't use it as the only backup for real funds.

You can experiment with a test amount of money to tickle your nerves (when money is at stake, this experiment will be the closest to real conditions). Create the 100 dots backup and place it in a place where it will not be intrusively visible. See how others (friends and random guests) will react to this and how quickly the money will disappear from this wallet how successfully the process of restoring access will go using the 100 dots backup. I think we should try it to identify possible bugs.

When a dilemma arises: to be or not to be to try or not to try, then it is better to choose the second. Until you try, you won't know.

[LoyceMobile]

How do you plan to store this piece of metal? Hide or fit into interior and decorative elements, furniture or other elements in the house or garage?

I'm now thinking it can be the furniture. The 100 dots can be in the side of a fridge or washing machine. It may not be sturdy enough to hammer though. Maybe an old PC will do, at least I can take the sheet metal off and place it on an anvil.

[Findingnemo]

Excellent suggestions in theory, but a hammer and a punch aren't the most precise implements, and from experience I can tell you that attempting to punch centering holes in close proximity to one another is nearly impossible without making a mess of things.  Especially if you're starting with a small substrate, like credit-card sized ones I used for my seeds.

With such a small surface it is an almost impossible task or at least for me to have accurate 100 dots.

I can see a few other ideas to keep our seeds private from community members in the last couple of days but I am asking myself how many people are going to take this risk with their primary wallet seeds? Even with multiple backups, the secret innovative storage of keys or seeds seems risky to me.

[NotATether]

How do you plan to store this piece of metal? Hide or fit into interior and decorative elements, furniture or other elements in the house or garage?

I'm now thinking it can be the furniture. The 100 dots can be in the side of a fridge or washing machine. It may not be sturdy enough to hammer though. Maybe an old PC will do, at least I can take the sheet metal off and place it on an anvil.

You mean the enclosure of a PC case to punch the holes in? That won't work, because the composition includes plastics in addition to metals.

Sheet metal strips are dirt cheap, especially those in smaller dimensions.

Also there are punching machines which can be programmed to punch holes in a certain pattern (google: "TRUMPF"), but these are designed for long slabs of sheet metal and are expensive. Are you sure a hammer can make the small holes regularly sized?

[DireWolfM14]

I can see a few other ideas to keep our seeds private from community members in the last couple of days but I am asking myself how many people are going to take this risk with their primary wallet seeds? Even with multiple backups, the secret innovative storage of keys or seeds seems risky to me.

Lol, totally agree.  Even after using number and letter stamps to encode my seed phrases onto those stainless steel credit cards, I still keep old-fashioned paper copies in my gun safe.  The fear of losing the spreadsheet, or forgetting how I encoded the seeds, or croaking before I can teach my kids how to decode my seeds would keep me up at night for sure.

google: "TRUMPF"

Lol, one of my first jobs out of college was programming CNC machines including a Trumpf laser cuter.  Have you priced those precision punches and laser engravers?  A bit over-kill I think.

[LoyceMobile]

You mean the enclosure of a PC case to punch the holes in? That won't work, because the composition includes plastics in addition to metals.

Also there are punching machines which can be programmed to punch holes in a certain pattern (google: "TRUMPF"), but these are designed for long slabs of sheet metal and are expensive. Are you sure a hammer can make the small holes regularly sized?

My old PC has a metal only top lid.

Programmable machines are a tad too expensive to burn after using them

The size of the holes doesn't really matter, but since the force required increases with the square of the diameter, I expect them to be quite similar. Or get an automatic center punch.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Excellent suggestions in theory, but a hammer and a punch aren't the most precise implements, and from experience I can tell you that attempting to punch centering holes in close proximity to one another is nearly impossible without making a mess of things.

Depends on your tools, I suppose. Lopp managed it: https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/reviews/bitplate/

I'm now thinking it can be the furniture.

Buy 20 such plates. Use one to stamp your seed phrase. Then use all 20 in a building project, such as to join two pieces of wood together, with the seed phrase obviously pointing inwards so it appears no different to any of the others. Or go in to your roof/cellar/foundations/crawl space/floorboards/whatever and just screw it (face down) on to some beam/joist/rafter/truss/whatever. No thief is going to stumble across that by mistake, and will only know to look for it if your opsec has completely failed.

[satscraper]

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I appreciate your solution on the given  matter.

In my view,  it can be even advanced and instead of applying  punches to relevant places one could drill the small holes there. Then, at decoding, one can illumine the face site of the plate and get the optical   signals from reverse side, head those signals to CCD matrix and get the restored SEED. Sure, some extra decoding soft would be needed to perform the final operation but to develop it is not a matter at all.

[LoyceV]

one could drill the small holes there.

In my experience, I'd break too many 1 mm drill bits doing this.

[satscraper]

one could drill the small holes there.

In my experience, I'd break too many 1 mm drill bits doing this.

It is not a problem if you have a mini drill press (I have such machine, acquired for  less than $100 on Amazon) and  the drilling bits made from the hardened steel. One - two bits would be enough to make one hundred holes. Sure, it would take some time to make 100 holes but the advantages of them over depressions on the plate surface are obvious for all  potential cases when such encrypted plate could be used.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Sure, it would take some time to make 100 holes but the advantages of them over depressions on the plate surface are obvious for all  potential cases when such encrypted plate could be used.

The disadvantage being your plate no longer has a blank rear side, so cannot be bolted on to something "face down" to make it appear like any other metal bracket or joint.

I'm also not convinced that trying to line up your plate with a printed template and line up a powerful enough light with each hole to get a clear point projected on the template in the right place is going to be any easier than just doing as Loyce has suggested.

[Yamane_Keto]

https://jlopp.github.io give it a good review  https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/reviews/attenuo/ with Crush, Corrosion, Heat Tests You must be careful in choosing the thickness so that the hammer can make a clear impact and at the same time be very deep to appear in case of shocks like this.

My eyesight is not good so I like the Steel Washer. It takes up less space, can be easily hidden, and gets the job done.

[satscraper]

[
I'm also not convinced that trying to line up your plate with a printed template and line up a powerful enough light with each hole to get a clear point projected on the template in the right place is going to be any easier than just doing as Loyce has suggested.

As I have mentioned in my first message  one can project the light that has passed trough holes on the surface of  CCD matrix, then assign coordinates of that matrix to   letters that correspond to the certain holes . This way you eliminate the need to use a printed template.

And don't worry about the luminous intensity needed for this. The plates with drilled holes are used to map the  long-distance galaxies of Universe  by exactly  the same technique I have suggested.  

[apogio]

Is it only me that find it extremely difficult to find a nice, clean, proper-sized cut piece of metal?

I want to test this idea, as my secondary backup method for my single sig wallet.

If this works properly, I would also try to generate a similar pattern for my passphrase. Only problem is that I would need to add symbols, numbers and both capital and small letters. I will think about it and I will let you know.