[100 dots] seed phrase backup

[o_e_l_e_o]

Is it only me that find it extremely difficult to find a nice, clean, proper-sized cut piece of metal?

Any decent hardware store should either have something in stock, or be able to order/cut something to your specifications. I prefer to use a local store, but even the generic big brand stores here will have something suitable: https://www.lowes.com/search?searchTerm=metal+plate

Don't know where you live, but I would assume most people would have a store somewhere in their local area which could provide a suitably sized piece of stainless steel. And if not, then I guess you could order one of the proprietary devices: https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/

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[1714528297]

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[apogio]

Is it only me that find it extremely difficult to find a nice, clean, proper-sized cut piece of metal?

Any decent hardware store should either have something in stock, or be able to order/cut something to your specifications. I prefer to use a local store, but even the generic big brand stores here will have something suitable: https://www.lowes.com/search?searchTerm=metal+plate

Don't know where you live, but I would assume most people would have a store somewhere in their local area which could provide a suitably sized piece of stainless steel. And if not, then I guess you could order one of the proprietary devices: https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/

Well it's not so easy here. But thanks. I was mainly just expressing a difficulty I have, rather than actually asking. But I appreciate the answer!

In regards to Jlopp's reviews, I have been thinking about buying this one: https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/reviews/cryptonumeris-plate-s/ since I have the metal letters already.

For the time being, I have created a custom backup with the washers (I 've seen it a lot in this forum). Looks good, but kind of difficult to read.

[LoyceV]

Is it only me that find it extremely difficult to find a nice, clean, proper-sized cut piece of metal?

You're not alone. It's not something you find at the local Home Depot here. I could order aluminium online, in any size I want, but haven't tried it. Next best would be an old oven plate (impossible to clean) or the side of the washing machine. Both are bad for my marriage

I want to test this idea, as my secondary backup method for my single sig wallet.

Do post the results on recovery when you did it!

I have created a custom backup with the washers (I 've seen it a lot in this forum). Looks good, but kind of difficult to read.

That just means you have to use a bigger hammer

[FatFork]

Is it only me that find it extremely difficult to find a nice, clean, proper-sized cut piece of metal?

You're not alone. It's not something you find at the local Home Depot here. I could order aluminium online, in any size I want, but haven't tried it. Next best would be an old oven plate (impossible to clean) or the side of the washing machine. Both are bad for my marriage

What about local blacksmiths' or metalworkers' workshops or artisans? They typically have a stash of scrap metal in their stockpiles, which could be perfect for this project.
Aluminum is a good choice due to its ease of processing, but, of course, stainless steel is a much better solution in case of a disaster. Most aluminum plates would likely be completely destroyed in a typical house fire, although they're still a much better choice than paper, wood, or plastic by a long shot.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Aluminum is a very poor choice, and I wouldn't recommend ever using it for this purpose. It is weak and highly malleable, meaning it is easily deformed, bent, or broken. It has a low melting point, well below temperatures reached in an average domestic fire. It is highly reactive and very prone to corrosion.

Have a look at how aluminum based devices fared with Lopp's stress tests: https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/reviews/ellipal-mnemonic-metal/

Good quality stainless steel is the best trade off between price and durability. If price is no object, then go for titanium.

[apogio]

If price is no object, then go for titanium.

You can find plenty of titanium nowadays. Just buy an iPhone and get the titanium for your seed backup. It's going to give the iPhones a reason to exist.  (Feel free to NOT comment, I just don't like iPhones a lot)

Do you guys have any idea in regards to copper? I found some washers made of copper and I thought, why not give it a try? It is more easy to carve than stainless steel.

[LoyceV]

Good quality stainless steel is the best trade off between price and durability. If price is no object, then go for titanium.

I didn't know I can just order titanium sheets online

Do you guys have any idea in regards to copper?

See Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers, and CTRL-F "copper". I can imagine it looks quite nice to have 100 dots in copper.

[AprilioMP]

This is what I love about this forum. Get useful knowledge freely as long as I am willing to read one post after another like the one in this thread.
I don't have enough memory for all the knowledge you have.
You always care about security and other things that are important to discuss by providing great discussions.

For me, discussions about wallet security and securing seed transactions are more important than other confusing discussions.

If my post is annoying and ruins your great discussion, please delete it.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Do you guys have any idea in regards to copper?

Better than aluminum, worse than stainless steel. Copper's melting point, reactivity, and durability, all lie between the relevant numbers for aluminum and stainless steel.

Here's a copper product which Lopp tested: https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/reviews/safe-seed/

As you can see, it does show far more damage than a stainless steel product, but the data was still readable. Although that might not be the case depending on how you stamp/engrave/whatever your data, though.

I didn't know I can just order titanium sheets online

I just did a quick eBay search and found a 10cm x 10cm x 4mm titanium plate for $20. That's even cheaper than I imagined. I'm sure you can probably find similar.

[apogio]

Better than aluminum, worse than stainless steel. Copper's melting point, reactivity, and durability, all lie between the relevant numbers for aluminum and stainless steel.
Here's a copper product which Lopp tested: https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/reviews/safe-seed/
As you can see, it does show far more damage than a stainless steel product, but the data was still readable. Although that might not be the case depending on how you stamp/engrave/whatever your data, though.

See Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers, and CTRL-F "copper". I can imagine it looks quite nice to have 100 dots in copper.

LoyceV, yeah it will look nice, but considering o_e_l_e_o's comment, I will stick with my stainless steel. Btw, I have edited the picture to look nicer  But still I only paid 20 euros for this whole setup.

[m2017]

Is it only me that find it extremely difficult to find a nice, clean, proper-sized cut piece of metal?

You're not alone. It's not something you find at the local Home Depot here. I could order aluminium online, in any size I want, but haven't tried it. Next best would be an old oven plate (impossible to clean) or the side of the washing machine. Both are bad for my marriage

What about local blacksmiths' or metalworkers' workshops or artisans? They typically have a stash of scrap metal in their stockpiles, which could be perfect for this project.
Aluminum is a good choice due to its ease of processing, but, of course, stainless steel is a much better solution in case of a disaster. Most aluminum plates would likely be completely destroyed in a typical house fire, although they're still a much better choice than paper, wood, or plastic by a long shot.

There is only one way out - to combine solutions for different conditions. That is, select the metal that will be most resistant to the conditions you expect. If you are afraid of a fire that could harm your plate, then it is better to choose a stainless steel type that has the best fire resistance. If there is no threat of ignition, then you can limit yourself to aluminum, but you should take into account the fact that aluminum is susceptible to alkalis, which dissolve the oxide (protective) film on the surface of the aluminum. For example, alkali may be present in the soil and therefore, it is a bad place to store an aluminum plate. Or you will have to think about a way to protect this metal with additional means (paint or other protective coating).

And even better - diversification: several plates from different types of metal. Paranoid people (who believe that the more backups there are, the higher the chances that one of them will be found by strangers.) can hide them all in one place.

If price is no object, then go for titanium.

Do you guys have any idea in regards to copper? I found some washers made of copper and I thought, why not give it a try? It is more easy to carve than stainless steel.

The density of copper is 2.5-3 units on the Mohs scale, and stainless steel is 4.5, and here you are right in saying that stainless steel is more difficult to process. But you weren’t going to do this manually, right? Now it is not a problem to find a power tool for these purposes that will allow you to easily interact even with titanium.

[apogio]

There is only one way out - to combine solutions for different conditions. That is, select the metal that will be most resistant to the conditions you expect. If you are afraid of a fire that could harm your plate, then it is better to choose a stainless steel type that has the best fire resistance. If there is no threat of ignition, then you can limit yourself to aluminum, but you should take into account the fact that aluminum is susceptible to alkalis, which dissolve the oxide (protective) film on the surface of the aluminum. For example, alkali may be present in the soil and therefore, it is a bad place to store an aluminum plate. Or you will have to think about a way to protect this metal with additional means (paint or other protective coating).

And even better - diversification: several plates from different types of metal. Paranoid people (who believe that the more backups there are, the higher the chances that one of them will be found by strangers.) can hide them all in one place.

The density of copper is 2.5-3 units on the Mohs scale, and stainless steel is 4.5, and here you are right in saying that stainless steel is more difficult to process. But you weren’t going to do this manually, right? Now it is not a problem to find a power tool for these purposes that will allow you to easily interact even with titanium.

Very helpful post, thanks. No I wasn't gonna do it manually, but I don't have super efficient hardware as well. I only have the basic tools (hammer etc).

To be absolutely honest with you, I personally choose paper (for fast back-up) and metal for durable back-up. So I back up my wallets twice (paper & metal).

[LoyceMobile]

I just did a quick eBay search and found a 10cm x 10cm x 4mm titanium plate for $20. That's even cheaper than I imagined. I'm sure you can probably find similar.

I found 25x25 cm at 1 mm thickness for 22 euro. It turns out there are different grades of titanium, I guess they're different alloys with different characteristics.

[apogio]

I found 25x25 cm at 1 mm thickness for 22 euro. It turns out there are different grades of titanium, I guess they're different alloys with different characteristics.

Yeah and depending on the application you can choose your desired grade. Take a look at this page: https://www.titaniumprocessingcenter.com/tips-choose-right-titanium-grade/

[FatFork]

I found 25x25 cm at 1 mm thickness for 22 euro. It turns out there are different grades of titanium, I guess they're different alloys with different characteristics.

Yeah and depending on the application you can choose your desired grade. Take a look at this page: https://www.titaniumprocessingcenter.com/tips-choose-right-titanium-grade/

From what I understand, Grade 5, also known as Ti-6Al-4V or TC4 (titanium-aluminum-vanadium alloy), is the most commonly available commercially and generally provides better characteristics compared to pure titanium (Grades 1-4). The price is only slightly higher than that of pure titanium plates.

[apogio]

From what I understand, Grade 5, also known as Ti-6Al-4V or TC4 (titanium-aluminum-vanadium alloy), is the most commonly available commercially and generally provides better characteristics compared to pure titanium (Grades 1-4). The price is only slightly higher than that of pure titanium plates.

Yes, that's what I saw too.

I think when it comes to corossion resistance, then Grade 5 is the winner.

When it comes to heat, I saw this on the internet:

Metal	Melting point (C)
Aluminum	660
Copper	1084
Stainless Steel	1510
Titanium	1670

I guess that according to titanium grade you can only go higher than 1670 Celcius.

Anyway, according to Wikipedia there are 38 grades for Titanium alloys, so.........

[o_e_l_e_o]

And even better - diversification: several plates from different types of metal.

This is unnecessary.

For all the qualities of the metal we are interested in for our purposes here - durability, strength, malleability, reactivity, melting point - then titanium is better than stainless steel, which is better than copper, which is better than aluminum. If a piece of aluminum will survive certain conditions, you can be certain the same sized piece of stainless steel would also survive those conditions and more.

To be absolutely honest with you, I personally choose paper (for fast back-up) and metal for durable back-up. So I back up my wallets twice (paper & metal).

I've said this before, but I think people who use these metal options generally worry about the wrong things. Far more important than having one super durable metal back up, is having two back ups. I'd much rather have two paper back ups in separate locations than one metal back up stored in the same place as my wallets themselves (i.e. at home), which in reality is no back up at all.

I guess that according to titanium grade you can only go higher than 1670 Celcius.

House fires hit around 1000 Celsius, so you are quite safe with either stainless steel or titanium.

[apogio]

I've said this before, but I think people who use these metal options generally worry about the wrong things. Far more important than having one super durable metal back up, is having two back ups. I'd much rather have two paper back ups in separate locations than one metal back up stored in the same place as my wallets themselves (i.e. at home), which in reality is no back up at all.

In fact, I have lost money before. I have opened a relevant thread. It didn't matter how well I had backed up my wallet. I made more severe mistakes.

Having two backups is vital. We don't discuss about this actually. The only wallet for which I have no dual backup is my multisig vault where I have the necessary redundancy with 3 cosigners backed up once.

Finally, I also have two backups of my passphrase. I don't trust my memory at all. So I have 2 wallets (2 seeds + 2 passphrases). I have backed them up as follows:

Place 1: Seed A + Passphrase B
Place 2: Seed B + Passphrase A
Place 3: Seed A + Seed B
Place 4: Passphrase A + Passphrase B

Losing 1 packet, I have no problem. If an attacker steals 1 packet they cannot take my funds from any wallet.

Even losing 2 packets, I have a small chance of not losing all my money.

House fires hit around 1000 Celsius, so you are quite safe with either stainless steel or titanium.

It is the last thing I will worry about. It must be devastating, seeing your house on fire.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Losing 1 packet, I have no problem. If an attacker steals 1 packet they cannot take my funds from any wallet.

Provided your passphrases are strong enough. You strike me as someone who does indeed use long and complex passphrases, but as we know many people use weak passwords, use names or dates, reuse passwords across multiple accounts, and so on, and the same applies to wallet passphrases as well.

It is the last thing I will worry about. It must be devastating, seeing your house on fire.

It would also be the last thing I worry about, not because I use metal but because I know I have other back ups off site. Should your house burn down, are you going to sit and sift through the debris looking for your steel plate back up? Will it be safe to do so? Will the fire service or similar even allow you to do that? What about if you live in an area prone to flooding or hurricanes, and your steel plate back up ends up a few kilometers away? How are you ever going to find it? An off site back up is significantly more important than using metal over paper.

[apogio]

Provided your passphrases are strong enough. You strike me as someone who does indeed use long and complex passphrases, but as we know many people use weak passwords, use names or dates, reuse passwords across multiple accounts, and so on, and the same applies to wallet passphrases as well.

This is why I back them up. I was born in 1994. If my passphrase was 1994, why would I bother backing it up? I mean I can safely assume that I will remember it. As a software engineer, but more importantly as a rational person, I can state that on the internet there is no such thing as "100% security" or "100% privacy". We can only try to diminish single points of failure and avoid silly mistakes. We can educate ourselves to think calmly and rationally. If I have a single backup (in the strongest material of the world), if I lose it, I am done... At the same time, if I have two backups at the same geographical place, it's stupid. I know these things are trivial and super simple to realise but I come across people that don't understand them. A friend of mine told me the other day that he had two backups of his seed phrase, in the same drawer. He said "two is better than one". I felt I had to explain the simplest thing, but apparently I had to do it. He also had his passphrase backed up in the same drawer all together. The back up was something like "my birth year". Anyone who stole this paper could just try all the years from 1923 to 2023 (assuming he is not older than 100yo and not younger than 1yo ). Just observe how many mistakes were made by my friend, that have nothing to do with Bitcoin, but it's just common sense.

But, at this point, I would like to merit you personally, because you have helped me a lot in this journey. And LoyceV too. As I have stated in other threads, I also have a multisig vault. The backing-up idea of the XPUBs in a cyclical manner along with the seeds wasn't so obvious to me at first, but it is a great idea after all.

What I try to say with these two paragraphs is, we must think rationally. Establish the proper precaution measures, that are trivial to everyone. Then, take small steps to ameliorate things even more.