Craig "Faketoshi" Wright saga continues. His team turns against him.

[BlackHatCoiner]

From Craig?

Yes.

But if you're just going to let bullies determine your life why bother living at all?

I mean, absolutely correct. In addition, you guys are more or less the inventors of Bitcoin. Satoshi (the real one) trusted Gavin the project. He was entitled as the main Bitcoin maintainer for a while, and he was chief scientist of the Bitcoin Foundation (which was to promote Bitcoin back in 2012). If I were him, I'd feel pissed off if someone (who I would knew is a liar, don't fool ourselves) confidently going out and suing the people I'd worked with, attempting to steal coins he doesn't own via the court, and ruin Bitcoin development's reputation in general.

I have read he left the project in 2014, so I guess you weren't going well together. Hardforks and the like. I can't have a complete opinion on this matter, as I wasn't into Bitcoin around then.

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[apogio]

Satoshi (the real one) trusted Gavin the project.

I have asked before, but I will ask again, in case anyone knows. Did CSW provide evidence that he was talking to Gavin via email, or at least, anything that can prove that he gave him the project?

If CSW = Satoshi, then CSW was the guy who was talking to Gavin via email and gave him the project.

[gmaxwell]

How high would be the probability that Gavin Andresen was bribed by Craig Wright?

The now published discussion isn't very consistent with that theory.  It's not impossible that there were messages removed or agreements made over the phone or in person, but I think it's an excessively powerful explanation.

The main arguments for it is that it's just so outrageous to imagine he actually believed Wright, but that really is the power of conmen.  As of recently we do know that that group has offered substantial payments (e.g. reporting that a KC was offered $100 million to secure Wright a victory) but if some agreement like that were to have existed there are reasonable odds that it would have been indicated by their private communication and it simply isn't there.

I think someone who wasn't paranoid enough falling for a skilled con would be explanation enough, but we also have the background bitcoin drama to supercharge the situation.  And the continued position is explainable because Wright has legitimately frightened many people (you don't exactly see most of the Bitcoin media seriously covering this nonsense).  All of those points are indisputable. No more explanation is required.

Is it impossible for there to have been greater plots?  No. But there is no end to the speculation-- why assume a bribe when it could have been a sekret deep state black operation to embarass bitcoin? Maybe space aliens don't want us to have P2P money. etc.  We should use the simplest explanation that explains the facts, failing to do so is among the errors people who still believe Wright are themselves making.

I have asked before, but I will ask again, in case anyone knows. Did CSW provide evidence that he was talking to Gavin via email, or at least, anything that can prove that he gave him the project?

He didn't.  You can read Gavin's email discussions with Wright in the archive linked above.

In fact, it's pretty clear today that Wright was not aware of Gavin's discussions with Satoshi.  OTOH, Gavin's discussions with Satoshi weren't actually all that extensive, at least outside of highly to-the-point functional discussions. Satoshi didn't share anything really in the way of personal opinions. Gavin tried to pry a little into Satoshi's identity and Satoshi ignored it.  Ironically Gavin may have perceived a similarity between Satoshi's privacy protection and Wright's evasion-- but Satoshi wasn't being evasive, Gavin was being intrusive.  With Wright the situation was flipped, he was trying to establish his identity and probing questions would have been entitled to straight answers.

In Gavin's email dialog with Wright Gavin didn't challenge Wright's knowledge of Bitcoin in any meaningful way, it's a real shame because any detailed discussion about Bitcoin's programming should have exposed Wright or at least forced him to start suggesting the parts Gavin discussed with him were written by other people.  It's telling that Roger Ver-- who also fell for Wright for a while-- ultimately saw the light when he realized that Wright didn't know Bitcoin addresses had a checksum.  Roger's not an entirely non-technical guy but he's not a serious programmer... but given enough exposure to Wright they eventually stumbled into a subject where Roger knew enough to see through him.

Aside, "gave him the project" is perhaps a bit of an overstatement.  Satoshi gave a number of people access, including Gavin, and then quietly stepped back.  Satoshi's last message to Gavin was wagging is finger at him telling him to give more credit to the other contributors.  It's more accurate to say that Satoshi handed bitcoin over to public collaboration which at the time was being substantially organized by Gavin but the whole point of Bitcoin really depends on there being no one ultimately controlling it. Not even Satoshi.

[o_e_l_e_o]

From Craig?  It's a very realistic concern. OTOH, in his shoes I'd feel honor bound to do the right thing in spite of the risk.

Here's a question, and much like Satoshi I am not a lawyer:

When Gavin was being deposed during the Kleiman trial back in 2020, and therefore both under oath and permitted to break his NDA if required, could he not have said at some point during the deposition "I do not believe CSW is Satoshi" and be protected from any future frivolous retaliation from CSW?

I think the closest he got during the deposition was when he said "Yeah, I've learned things after that give me doubts", referring to things he had learned since the "signing session" which make him now doubt that CSW is Satoshi.

[apogio]

He didn't.  You can read Gavin's email discussions with Wright in the archive linked above.

In fact, it's pretty clear today that Wright was not aware of Gavin's discussions with Satoshi.

In Gavin's email dialog with Wright Gavin didn't challenge Wright's knowledge of Bitcoin in any meaningful way, it's a real shame because any detailed discussion about Bitcoin's programming should have exposed Wright or at least forced him to start suggesting the parts Gavin discussed with him were written by other people.  It's telling that Roger Ver-- who also fell for Wright for a while-- ultimately saw the light when he realized that Wright didn't know Bitcoin addresses had a checksum.  Roger's not an entirely non-technical guy but he's not a serious programmer... but given enough exposure to Wright they eventually stumbled into a subject where Roger knew enough to see through him.

Exactly. I think this can also be a contributing factor to the evidence against CSW claims that he is Satoshi. I mean, I can imagine that writing Bitcoin's code is something that the original developer would remember. Personally, I work as a dev and I can remember lots of code things I 've written in the past 5 years. At least I can easily understand it and why I wrote it - and realise the mistakes I have made. But if I had written something so important like Bitcoin, and having been engaged for multiple years in this project, I would definetely remember it and of course, I would definetely understand every single aspect of it. How fees work, how keys and addresses work, how signatures work, how mining works etc.

[gmaxwell]

When Gavin was being deposed during the Kleiman trial back in 2020, and therefore both under oath and permitted to break his NDA if required, could he not have said at some point during the deposition "I do not believe CSW is Satoshi" and be protected from any future frivolous retaliation from CSW?

I think the closest he got during the deposition was when he said "Yeah, I've learned things after that give me doubts", referring to things he had learned since the "signing session" which make him now doubt that CSW is Satoshi.

Indeed, he was pretty wishy washy in the deposition.

So he would have been protected from being accused of breaching an NDA but that doesn't protect you from someone's ire.  Example, when Wright later sued 'developers' half the defendants hadn't worked on Bitcoin in years (myself included).  Wright just as well could have included Gavin in that lawsuit-- there would be more logic for including Gavin than Eric Lombrozo or Peter Todd (for example)-- at least Gavin had been a committer at one point.   Wright is willing to lie so if he wants to target you he can make something up, and that's just assuming his retaliation would come in the form of a lawsuit and not some other form.  Wright's already willing to ignore the law, ignore ethical behavior, so what might he do if you become a target of his?

Right now Gavin is protected from Wright: other than nChain insiders and Wright's wife no one else is better positioned to mess up Wright's plans.  At any point Gavin could go review all the evidence made public since the ceremony and put out a statement explaining how confident he is that Wright tricked him (which I'm sure he would be if he reviewed the stuff Wright has been putting out), detailed how he was probably tricked, etc.  It would be a mortal wound to Wright's schemes, might even stop him completely if it caused Ayre to realize he was had.  I think that the only reason it wouldn't stop Ayre entirely is that Ayre might dismiss him as having been bribed, especially since Ayre clearly will bribe and coerce people (see the leaked emails re: Lynn Wright).  I'm sure this leverage protect Gavin a lot, but it comes at a cost to everyone else who doesn't benefit from the protection, would really benefit from the truth, and is exposed in part because that endorsement gave Wright an incredible credibility boost.  But if Gavin does too much to undermine Wright then then that protection is gone.

[franky1]

Was Gavin Andresen really bribed, or is that just a presumption from some people? "Tin-foil hats on", yes it's very possible, BUT is there confirmation that he was bribed?

Merely an assumption I have made. We obviously don't have evidence when bribing happens, but it seems extremely likely to be the case here, IMO.

I mean, we have a Bitcoin developer who is known to having technical expertise with Bitcoin in general, publicly stating he thinks CSW could be Satoshi, because... He was invited in his place to get shown cryptographic evidence privately from altered software? Didn't it cross his mind to request digital signature over the Internet? What kind of desire to do this privately is that, if Craig doesn't mind Gavin publicly stating he was shown cryptographic evidence? Can the rest of us confirm? Wild conspiracy, but they might have exchanged more than "digital signatures".  

gavins main point of initial approval. was that CSW read the public messages of satoshi and the emails and then wrote emails to gavin in that satoshi style mentioning things mentioned in early satoshi messages. which intrigued gavins curiosity

Andresen had been in touch with Satoshi in the early days and would have records of their conversations. He would presumably be able to ask Wright questions that only Satoshi could answer. In December, after Wired published the story about Wright possibly being Satoshi, Andresen told the magazine he’d never heard of Craig Wright. But he began to believe in Wright once he started corresponding with him by email in early April. At one point, Wright sent him two emails, one written in his own Craig Wright way, and another one, with essentially the same content, written as Satoshi would have written it. They discussed maths and the history of the invention and the problems it had faced.

^ gavin also tweeted/blogged the same sentiments

Within a week, Andresen was sufficiently convinced to get on a plane to London. He was ready to see Wright sign a message to him using the original Satoshi cryptographic keys.

^gavin revealed they signed NDA and paid for gavins time and costs for the session

gavin was invited to do the "signing proof" engagement but the session the proof was not for bitcoiners it was for CSW's investors to see someone approve CSW. with all the NDA's there is always some compensation arrangement to stay quiet. no one ever signs something just offering threats if you speak, because they just wont get involved in the first place. you only get involved if there is some payment to accept the terms

Andresen crossed the Atlantic overnight, arriving at the Covent Garden Hotel at 11 a.m. on 7 April. He went to his room – which had been booked, as had his flight, by nCrypt –
..
MacGregor and Matthews turned up. ‘They gave me a lot of the background and explained their involvement,’ Andresen told me. When Wright turned up at the hotel, Andresen found it easy to talk to him, ‘although I was so jet-lagged at one point,’ he wrote, ‘I had to stop him from diving deep into a mathematical proof he’d worked out related to how blocks are validated in bitcoin.’
Matthews had booked a conference room in the basement, and MacGregor could see that Wright was very emotional when he entered the room. ‘He knew this was it,’ MacGregor said to me. ‘It’s one thing to prove his identity to you and me, but the bitcoin community is something else. He knew that they would believe Gavin. He knew this was it – that he would have no plausible deniability after he’d talked to Gavin and shown him the keys.’ Before the meeting in the basement properly started, Andresen said to MacGregor – as he said to me – that some of the phrases Wright had used in their email exchange had been ‘familiar’ to him; he sounded like the Satoshi he had been in contact with before. Andresen asked MacGregor and Matthews a few questions about what nCrypt hoped to achieve with this in the future. They didn’t go into detail about the company’s business plans, but they spoke about the future of bitcoin and alternative projects. Wright and Andresen quickly started scribbling on pieces of paper.

so as you can see the signing session was not about proving to the community but to prove to ncrypt investors MacGregor and Matthews
which.. invested $15m into CSW to set up in london, with the proof to gain ncrypts confidence would release further money to CSW
whereby matthews and macgregor paid gavin for his time and costs
'scribling on pieces of paper' = more NDA's wrote to benefit matthews and macgregor
gavin in other communications admitted there were several NDA signing sessions before during and after the 'proof' session

Within a few months, according to evidence later given to me by Matthews and MacGregor, the deal would cost MacGregor’s company $15 million. ‘That’s right,’ Matthews said in February this year. ‘When we signed the deal, $1.5 million was given to Wright’s lawyers. But my main job was to set up an engagement with the new lawyers … and transfer Wright’s intellectual property to nCrypt’ – a newly formed subsidiary of nTrust. ‘The deal had the following components: clear the outstanding debts that were preventing Wright’s business from getting back on its feet, and work with the new lawyers on getting the agreements in place for the transfer of any non-corporate intellectual property, and work with the lawyers to get Craig’s story rights.’ From that point on, the ‘Satoshi revelation’ would be part of the deal. ‘It was the cornerstone of the commercialisation plan,’ Matthews said, ‘with about ten million sunk into the Australian debts and setting up in London.’

all of this drama is to fake proof. to the pretend to offer "rights" of satoshi to his investors
book rights: O’Hagan
movie rights: ayres and stevens
IP rights mathews and macgregor

[Isuru_]

The defection of Craig Wright's team is a major setback for his claims to be Satoshi Nakamoto. This comes at a time when he is already facing significant legal challenges. It remains to be seen whether he will be able to maintain his credibility in the face of this new evidence.

Wright has been involved in a number of lawsuits related to his Bitcoin claims. He has also been accused of plagiarizing the work of others. In 2019, he was sued by Dave Kleiman, the estate of his former business partner. The lawsuit alleged that Wright had stolen billions of dollars worth of Bitcoin from Kleiman.

In January 2023, a Florida jury found in favor of Kleiman's estate, awarding them $100 million in damages. Wright has appealed the verdict.

What about his next steps 

[gmaxwell]

and then wrote emails to gavin in that satoshi style mentioning things mentioned in early satoshi messages.

Some people thought that-- and indeed Gavin implied it--, but we now have Gavin's communication w/ Wright (it was made public as a result of the Norway trial).  I don't think it supports that description.

At one point, Wright sent him two emails, one written in his own Craig Wright way, and another one, with essentially the same content, written as Satoshi would have written it.
 

Read the messages yourself and see if you agree with that description.

Wright has appealed the verdict.

No he didn't. To appeal he would have had to post the >$100 million (actually over $140 million due to interest).  The *estate* appealed.

[apogio]

I may sound silly but, wouldn't it be great if satoshi appeared, just once, to sign a message saying that CSW is fraud? Of course the main point behind this action would be to save Core Devs from paying absurd money in legal expenses

[pawel7777]

I may sound silly but, wouldn't it be great if satoshi appeared, just once, to sign a message saying that CSW is fraud? Of course the main point behind this action would be to save Core Devs from paying absurd money in legal expenses

Nah. I don't think that would really make much difference in terms of CSW's ability to drag people through the courts. It would be a solid proof for the community (not that we really need it) and maybe it could be used in a court as a proof, but they'd still have to go through trials and therefore incur legal costs.
And of course, crashing the market would be an undesirable side effect.

[apogio]

And of course, crashing the market would be an undesirable side effect.

What do you mean by that? How would the market crash?

[BlackHatCoiner]

I may sound silly but, wouldn't it be great if satoshi appeared, just once, to sign a message saying that CSW is fraud? Of course the main point behind this action would be to save Core Devs from paying absurd money in legal expenses

It wouldn't help, because Craig has made it abundantly clear "his" keys were compromised. So, essentially, he's trying to nullify the validity of any real Satoshi evidence, as proving you're Satoshi requires cryptographic proof, and he's revoked their keys with the excuse they're compromised.

But, he does have claimed ownership of addresses which were funded in the early days. If that doesn't serve as evidence he's a fraud, I don't know what does.  

Code:

"Craig Steven Wright is a liar and a fraud. He doesn't have the keys used to sign this message.

The Lightning Network is a significant achievement. However, we need to continue work on improving on-chain capacity.

Unfortunately, the solution is not to just change a constant in the code or to allow powerful participants to force out others.

We are all Satoshi"



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[apogio]

But, he does have claimed ownership of addresses which were funded in the early days. If that doesn't serve as evidence he's a fraud, I don't know what does.  

Code:

"Craig Steven Wright is a liar and a fraud. He doesn't have the keys used to sign this message.

The Lightning Network is a significant achievement. However, we need to continue work on improving on-chain capacity.

Unfortunately, the solution is not to just change a constant in the code or to allow powerful participants to force out others.

We are all Satoshi"



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Why the hell can't this be used as strong evidence? I mean what else is needed? Anyway...

[Doan9269]

And of course, crashing the market would be an undesirable side effect.

What do you mean by that? How would the market crash?

I guess from his context, what he meant was the market bear and not that the bitcoin network crashing as the thought might have shown in his expression, though we all have different ways of expressing ourselves but crashing in this regard could either mean the price crashing or the network completely going down crashing, which i believe that was not his intention on that.

As for Craig Wright and his fake teams, the table is turning around already by the table shaker, preys are now hunting after their hunter, law of karma.

[apogio]

Aside from what other member already said, each Satoshi action in public could be used to de-anonymize Satoshi.

Yeah you have a strong point here. Although satoshi knows well how to hide.

I also don't understand. If such action could affect the market, what might happen is further BSV crash.

Anyway, I don't see how this action could affect bitcoins price. But it's such an unrealistic scenario, so ...

[o_e_l_e_o]

Many people operate under the mistaken premise that any coins which have not moved in x number of years are permanently lost, and therefore removed from the supply. Many people also assume that Satoshi owns in excess of 1 million bitcoin. A message signed from the genesis block public key would lead many people to realize that assuming coins are lost with zero proof is a mistake, and worry that in excess of a million coins could be about to be sold, leading to them selling their own coins for fear of the price falling. I don't agree with this logic, but many people do.

I believe this is what pawel is referring to above.

[apogio]

Many people operate under the mistaken premise that any coins which have not moved in x number of years are permanently lost, and therefore removed from the supply. Many people also assume that Satoshi owns in excess of 1 million bitcoin. A message signed from the genesis block public key would lead many people to realize that assuming coins are lost with zero proof is a mistake, and worry that in excess of a million coins could be about to be sold, leading to them selling their own coins for fear of the price falling. I don't agree with this logic, but many people do.

I believe this is what pawel is referring to above.

I don't think so. Permanently lost means permanently lost. As long as there is a possibility higher than 0 to retrieve the PK that derives those addresses, then they are not permanently lost, if we wanna be accurate

[pawel7777]

Many people operate under the mistaken premise that any coins which have not moved in x number of years are permanently lost, and therefore removed from the supply. Many people also assume that Satoshi owns in excess of 1 million bitcoin. A message signed from the genesis block public key would lead many people to realize that assuming coins are lost with zero proof is a mistake, and worry that in excess of a million coins could be about to be sold, leading to them selling their own coins for fear of the price falling. I don't agree with this logic, but many people do.

I believe this is what pawel is referring to above.

Precisely. BTC price is decided by buy and sell orders. If, all of a sudden, a risk appears that an additional 1 million bitcoins can be dumped on the market, that would cause a panic.
And if you're money motivated, you not only have to consider what is likely to happen, but also what other traders think would happen and how will they react.

However, on second thought, I think that such event would reflect negatively on the price, but it wouldn't necessarily trigger a proper crash. After all, if someone had access to that 1 mil btc and didn't sell for all those years, what is the likelihood of them selling now all at once?

[o_e_l_e_o]

I don't think so. Permanently lost means permanently lost. As long as there is a possibility higher than 0 to retrieve the PK that derives those addresses, then they are not permanently lost, if we wanna be accurate

Correct. The number of provably lost bitcoins, such as those sent to OP_RETURN outputs, those sent to invalid locking scripts, those which miners failed to claim in the first place, etc., is very small, and numbers around 2,828 BTC. But we frequently see the figure of around 4 million "lost" bitcoin be thrown around on this forum, on Reddit, on Twitter, on various crypto blogs and clickbait sites, and so on. It is a widely held belief, even if it is completely incorrect.

And so I have no doubt that if a signed message appeared from the genesis block public key which included a recent date, lots of people would panic sell and the price would indeed fall.