Ledger's laying off employees. Thoughts?

[shortveggie]

They deserve bankruptcy! You don't go from "the seed phrase never leaves the device" to "oh yeah it's fine we'll keep your seed for you" without consequences.

I don't have a ledger and I want to ask is this about ledger update i read about. they offer storing your seed ``securely``? it sounds like huge security hazard that could happen. i agree with you if this is it.

[LoyceV]

they offer storing your seed ``securely``?

See: Ledger Recovery - Send your (encrypted) recovery phrase to 3rd parties entities.

it sounds like huge security hazard that could happen.

Of course it is! But the much bigger problem is that Ledger Live can extract the seed from the hardware wallet.

[Findingnemo]

They deserve bankruptcy! You don't go from "the seed phrase never leaves the device" to "oh yeah it's fine we'll keep your seed for you" without consequences.

They will eventually and basically Ledger company is a sinking ship and with their actions, I don't think they will ever gonna regain the lost trust. Their story of longevity just proves that they need financial sources to survive as long as they can since they are not making any profits.

I think it is time for them to build something other than hardware wallets like USB Humping Dog

[Z-tight]

I also wasn't aware that there were very negative opinions about Ledger's CEO.  Very interesting.

And I still don’t know. Why is this gossip here if negative opinions about Ledger's CEO only if it doesn't concern their devices and the users of their products? I am ready to listen to information of this nature if it is related to ledger products (hardware wallets, apps and so on) and related topics.

I don't know if you know this, but the negative opinion about Ledger's CEO directly concerns their devices, people criticize him and Ledger as a whole for saying for many years that your wallet secrets can't leave the secure element, but it turned out to be a lie. The discussion here is very objective, it isn't about guesses or gossips, it is a fact Ledger lies about stuffs concerning their devices and it is not a recommended hardware wallet to use.

[o_e_l_e_o]

and I do not know how he knows the percentage of securing 20% of global crypto assets.

Because if you use Ledger Live, then Ledger are spying on you.

Here's a quote from their Privacy Policy about what data Ledger Live collects:

Device session identifier, IP address*, clicks, actions (e.g. launching the application, use of transactional functionalities, pages viewed), properties (e.g. type, version, language and region recorded for your operating system), currency, time stamp, amount and status of transactions, transaction identifier, identifier used by our partners to identify you (when you use their services)

"Amount and status of transactions" therefore includes all your transactions and balances.

Tie that in with a general slowdown in crypto and they were going to lay off X number of people anyway. But now it's X+Y people. Which is worse, yes. But how much worse?

But also shows terrible management.

Bitcoin has booms and busts. There are bull markets where hundreds of thousands of people are scrambling to buy hardware wallets for the first time, and bear markets with a tiny fraction of that kind of action. This has been the case since before Ledger existed. To fail to see this coming is just another decision to add to the growing list of terrible decisions made by Ledger management, such as Ledger Stax, Ledger Recover, poor security practices and database leaks, lying to your users for a decade, trying to redefine open source, and so on.

Since the current management took over at Ledger, it's been constantly downhill. They are riding on the coattails and the money of the original management and the devices they created, while making bad decision after bad decision.

[LoyceV]

"Amount and status of transactions" therefore includes all your transactions and balances.

To be fair: that kinda comes with relying on a centralized server. The moment you connect to an Electrum server, the server also knows all this information about you.
Of course, they shouldn't be keeping this information after you disconnect, but then they wouldn't have bragging rights of "securing" 20% of all crypto assets.

[o_e_l_e_o]

To be fair: that kinda comes with relying on a centralized server. The moment you connect to an Electrum server, the server also knows all this information about you.

Yes, of course. As Z-tight points out on the previous page, if you aren't using your Ledger device exclusively via your own node, then someone is spying on you, whether that is Ledger themselves or the owner of whichever third party server you are connecting to.

There is no need for Ledger to keep this data for 5 years though (which is what the Privacy Policy states), nor for them to share it with a bunch of third parties.

[Lucius]

They deserve bankruptcy! You don't go from "the seed phrase never leaves the device" to "oh yeah it's fine we'll keep your seed for you" without consequences.

They definitely deserve some kind of punishment from the community that bought their devices, but I sincerely doubt that they will go bankrupt considering that (unfortunately) most of the people who have their hardware wallets or those who are about to buy them do not understand the risks they are exposed to considering that their seed can be shared with Ledger and at least two other companies. As if the hacking of the data of hundreds of thousands of their clients was not enough of a warning that someone in that company is behaving very irresponsibly.

They will eventually and basically Ledger company is a sinking ship and with their actions, I don't think they will ever gonna regain the lost trust. Their story of longevity just proves that they need financial sources to survive as long as they can since they are not making any profits.
~snip~

We will only see in the coming years how much trust has actually been lost, but the fact is that Ledger is maintained on the surface only for the reason that no other company has adequately responded to the opportunity that appeared on the market. I am not saying that there are no alternatives when it comes to other hardware wallets, but it seems to me that they are still a step or two behind, whether it is marketing or competitiveness when it comes to the price of the product.


I think that the number of employees of the company will perhaps be the best indicator of how successful (unsuccessful) the company will be in the future. Bad business results always fall on the backs of ordinary workers.

[Z-tight]

I am not saying that there are no alternatives when it comes to other hardware wallets, but it seems to me that they are still a step or two behind, whether it is marketing or competitiveness when it comes to the price of the product.

I think another reason is that the BTC community (not just on this forum alone) has promoted Ledger (and Trezor too) for a very long time as recommended hardware wallets, i am talking of before the community knew they were lying about wallets secrets never leaving the secure element and a lot of other lies and security flaws from Ledger.

So it is kind of difficult to convince people now that Ledger isn't recommended, especially people who don't know what they are doing and can't do their own research. I've had to answer a couple of questions from newbies who query why Ledger is 'no longer' recommended and i am sure it won't be the last time.

[Synchronice]

The reddit thread also mentioned that Ledger has something like 500 employees, which seems like a hell of a lot for a company that basically makes 3-4 products (unless a lot of programming/coding is needed).

Yes, 500 employees are really a lot for this type of company. I was expecting their number to be between 50-70 employees. By the way, it's interesting to know what's their net profit, how much they profit from each product. But I think from these 500 employees, many will be contract employees from overseas. They save tons of money this way.

If anyone was a little lazy to read the whole article, I picked some good quotes from that.

The events of the last year and a half have helped the market appreciate Ledger’s fundamentals: “If not self-custody, why crypto?”

What a hypocrisy, they have no shame. They ask, if not self-custody then why crypto and at the same time offer Ledger Recover service that makes your device totally controlled by them. That's far from self-custody, it's everything else other than self-custody.

We will soon launch our subscription service Ledger Recover, which will enable millions to securely back up their Secret Recovery Phrase. This is a necessary service for the next wave of new users to join self custody

Hypocrisy again on another level. As it seems, Ledger Recover is a necessary service for those who are looking for self-custody device. How is that? I just can't understand. Is there anyone who doesn't laugh when reads this?

As announced, in response to the recent crises of lack-of-governance and trust, we are adding TRADELINK, a trading network built with the participation of regulated custodians, with over 20+ partners already signed on.

Oops, didn't saw a post about tradelink on this forum. Did everyone miss that?

Have we been perfect in all matters? No. We have made mistakes along the way.

Yes, Ledger Recover was the biggest mistake. Did they really realize that? No, they think that fail is part of the process and positive side (probably of Ledger Recover) will outweigh the negative sides. Ledger CEO remains N1 Dhead again.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

But now without as much movement in crypto, we can safely assume that they aren't doing as well. I tried to look at their financial statements but it seems like they haven't published a new one since 2016!?

Dude, that was one of the most helpful posts I've read in a long time--seriously!  As to the financial reports I'm sure you know that since they're a private company (and I assume a small one at that, despite all of that massive funding), they don't have to report anything to anyone aside from their investors and whoever else requires that info.  That doesn't raise a red flag in my mind necessarily, nor does it concern me and wouldn't even if I was using any of their wallets.

In that reddit thread, someone said that they'd had far, far fewer employees not too long ago before they ballooned up to the 500+ mark.  I don't get why a company that makes a few established products would need that many workers, because as far as I can tell (and I could be wrong) they're not doing any extensive R&D or anything of the sort.  I mean that's a lot of employees, no?

The feeling I get is that those layoffs aren't mainly due to the crypto "bear market" which I don't think is an accurate description of how the crypto market is doing unless the present state is only being compared to 2020.  It isn't as though prices are constantly dropping or that enthusiasm for crypto is waning.  The Recover debacle was a huge deal, and I think it caused far more people to not buy Ledger wallets than their subreddit would indicate.  Anyone who understands what Ledger's disclosure about the secure element means and is in any way concerned that one's private keys are not at all private anymore when using a Ledger would look elsewhere for a HW wallet.  

I don't know if you know this, but the negative opinion about Ledger's CEO directly concerns their devices, people criticize him and Ledger as a whole for saying for many years that your wallet secrets can't leave the secure element, but it turned out to be a lie. The discussion here is very objective, it isn't about guesses or gossips, it is a fact Ledger lies about stuffs concerning their devices and it is not a recommended hardware wallet to use.

Yeah, I completely get that.  I guess what I'm wondering is why, when I read their subreddit, there are still so many people who appear to be blissfully unconcerned about that.  There was outrage after the Recover announcement and then it kind of switched back to normal discussion--and even during the outrage there were members vehemently defending Ledger.  There might be shills, of course, but I find it hard to believe there are that many in the subreddit.  I also know a lot of people are ignorant or just plain stupid, but the defenders of Ledger didn't seem to fall into either category.  They just seemed to be very trusting with respect to what Ledger has or will do with their customers' private keys and the info they obviously have access to.

I'm very curious to see how this all plays out, because I think Ledger cut its own throat and just hasn't bled out yet.

[o_e_l_e_o]

They definitely deserve some kind of punishment from the community that bought their devices, but I sincerely doubt that they will go bankrupt considering that (unfortunately) most of the people who have their hardware wallets or those who are about to buy them do not understand the risks they are exposed to considering that their seed can be shared with Ledger and at least two other companies.

Agreed. People continue to use a variety of centralized exchanges despite them selling data, insider trading, seizing coins, etc. People continue to use a variety of closed source software wallets despite them having glaring security flaws and suffering from massive hacks. People continue to use other hardware wallets with poor security or poor privacy. People continue to use lending platforms and other DeFi nonsense despite millions of users losing everything in various scams and bankruptcy. They will continue to use Ledger devices despite significant risks in doing so. Best we can do is warn them not to.

I am not saying that there are no alternatives when it comes to other hardware wallets, but it seems to me that they are still a step or two behind, whether it is marketing or competitiveness when it comes to the price of the product.

I think this will change. As I said above, Ledger are currently surviving based on their previous good reputation and name recognition, but they have failed to make a single real innovation in the hardware wallet space in years. Their latest product - Stax - is an absolute joke. Newer companies are only behind in marketing because Ledger have been around for a decade.

[Lucius]

~snip~

As announced, in response to the recent crises of lack-of-governance and trust, we are adding TRADELINK, a trading network built with the participation of regulated custodians, with over 20+ partners already signed on.

Oops, didn't saw a post about tradelink on this forum. Did everyone miss that?

This is the first time I'm hearing about it, although honestly all the information I get about them comes from this forum - and apparently everyone missed it, or no one considered it something worth mentioning. For those who want to know a little more, there is some information on the official website, but also on some news portals.


@o_e_l_e_o, as they say, old habits die hard even when we are aware that we should change them. This is exactly what keeps Ledger still in the competition, regardless of all the scandals they produce. As you say yourself, if someone buys BTC and keeps it in something they consider an online crypto bank (CEX), then I'm sure that Ledger can sell them the story that their new service is actually good, and it's also optional.

I hope that a company (or maybe an existing one) will appear that will offer a product that will be safe, attractive and competitively priced in relation to Ledger HW. It always seemed to me that the Ledger Nano S or X models owe their success to their design, which resembles a regular USB stick, and when I was in doubt between the Nano S and the Trezor, I was somehow more attracted to the design made by Ledger.

[o_e_l_e_o]

I hope that a company (or maybe an existing one) will appear that will offer a product that will be safe, attractive and competitively priced in relation to Ledger HW.

I think such a product already exists in the Foundation Passport.

They relatively recently dropped the price to $199, making it cheaper than both the Ledger Stax and Trezor T. And when you consider it comes with an industrial grade SD card, then it also works out cheaper than the same bundle from ColdCard. Add in that it is entirely airgapped and entirely open source, and it is a very attractive device indeed.

I think the biggest issue for someone like yourself would be the shipping fees and any import taxes you would have to pay, although they do have a number of official resellers: https://foundationdevices.com/resellers/

[Lucius]

~snip~

I agree that Passport is an excellent solution for those who only have BTC, and here Ledger or Trezor have an advantage, considering that they are multicurrency HW, which for some is a crucial thing when buying such devices. As for us in the EU, the price is of course a little higher (about 260 EUR - a little more than $270), and there are really quite a sufficient number of resellers, and for me it's a shame that one from my country stopped selling this HW.

Considering the events of the past, my first option would be to buy HW directly for cash, and the second option would be to use a PO box, I am not even thinking about the third one.

[o_e_l_e_o]

considering that they are multicurrency HW

I always forget that people care so much about shitcoins. When your entire coin can be rug pulled at any time, or when its entire set up is one massive scam or Ponzi, or when its so centralized it can be shutdown at any time or your coins can even be unilaterally frozen or seized from your wallet, or perhaps if you make the "wrong" transaction then the entire chain will be re-orged to remove your transaction, then people worrying about which hardware wallet will support it is completely missing the point in my opinion.

On the other hand, being bitcoin only means a smaller attack surface and less possibilities for vulnerabilities and bugs. Although it is a shame that nothing seems to have come of the Monero fork of the Passport firmware: https://github.com/mjg-foundation/passport2-monero

[dkbit98]

No surprise here that ledger is laying off their employees, village garage is getting smaller and smaller every day  
Let's not forget they also fired their co-founder aka reddit evil moderator BTChip for doing ''amazing'' work in last few years  

By the way, I don't think I mentioned that I used to be a fan of Ledger despite the warnings by dkbit98 in particular but now have turned 180 degrees....so that makes me an anti-fan, I suppose.  

I didn't force anyone to hate ledger, I just presented information from my research, and something was stinking from start.

[Meuserna]

Let's not forget they also fired their co-founder aka reddit evil moderator BTChip for doing ''amazing'' work in last few years  

That guy was toxic.

If you asked questions on the Ledger sub, he would respond by lying.  And if you quoted him, he'd cry foul and then ban you.

Here's one of my favorite BTchip quotes.  He was asked if there are any backdoors in Ledger's code.  He said:

There's no backdoor and I obviously can't prove it

Note that he removed the reply to his comment.  He then edited his comment and added a disclaimer saying he was quoted out of context.  So, hey BTCIP!  In case you see this, here's the context:

QUESTION: "Is there a backdoor? Yes or No"

BTCHIP: "There's no backdoor and I obviously can't prove it (because it's not possible to prove a negative)"

Noooo...  he can't prove it because Ledger's code isn't open, which means they can't prove anything.  Is their code even safe?  They can't prove it.

Here's another one of my favorite BTchip quotes:

Your keys are always stored on your device and never leave it

btchip, May 14th, 2023

Notice the date on that quote.  May 14th 2023.  How long do you think they'd been working on Ledger Recover by that point?  "Recover" is a huge undertaking that includes Ledger working with other companies (because 3 companies will hold extracted seeds from Ledger wallets).  How long do you think it took to come up with that plan, negotiate deals with the other companies, finalize those contracts with the lawyers from all three companies, not to mention writing and testing the code.

Seriously, how long do you think it took to do all that work?

I guarantee there are signed documents for Recover from long before May 2023.  I bet there are signatures from 2022, not to mention emails, texts and other electronic data.

So, long after Ledger was working on a system for key extraction and recovery over the internet, BTchip was still saying keys never leave Ledger devices.

How is that not fraud?

[o_e_l_e_o]

That guy was toxic.

I remember listening to him in one of the damage control live streams Ledger hosted in the days and weeks following the launch of Ledger Recover, and he came across as completely condescending and as if everyone raising issues about Ledger Recover should just be ignored.

Direct quote from Nicolas Bacca (BTChip, Ledger VP): "I'm not sure what's not to like."

Absolutely unbelievable. This forum, Reddit, Twitter, literally everywhere pointing out the massive issues with this, and the VP responds by sticking his head in the sand and saying "Everything is great!"

Your seed phrase will be extracted and shared with third parties. What's not to like!?

If you asked questions on the Ledger sub, he would respond by lying.

This seems to be a common theme throughout Ledger management now. They are all quite willing to lie to promote their products. For example: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5452900.msg62267909#msg62267909. Or when they claimed they were making their code open source, and then invented a new license which isn't open source at all.

[so98nn]

That doesn't seem good to me considering the fact that I am having Ledger bought in late 2018. Since then I have never explored other wallets considering I will have to invest more money in my wallet than I could save up in it. Instead, I am using the same wallet to date. In the past, I even lost it once due to home shifting and careless handling of the same _{(learned lesson already).}

Now is not the time for this company to shit around like that.

Should I be worried about its ongoing operations?

What I read on the website tells me they are also in the process of launching a new feature that can help us restore the ledger if we ever forget seed phrases. They have not explained it in very much detail but it seems they are going to do that based on "Identity verification".

Pretty much fucked up when we call it a decentralized system. However, it's not available for everyone, meaning you have to enroll in the program.

Anyways, if they have an ongoing project, but they are also laying off the employees, what future does it have?

Fact: My ledger is still holding pretty awesome, I turn it on rarely. Sometimes I have to turn it on to check if it's still operational or not. Lolz.