A Simple Reason Why Bitcoin is not Money

[moneystery]

stones, metals, gold, money it is a means of exchange depending on where it is widely accepted. you said that bitcoin is not money and that is very true, but it is a means of exchange used by users on the bitcoin network and it is accepted by everyone. whatever your arguments about bitcoin, people will still say that it is a means of exchange and not money.

and bitcoin is a pyramid scheme? what about money, gold, diamonds? is it not a pyramid scheme created by the government? it's all just a bunch of paper and rocks, what makes it valuable is that it's regulated and needed by people and it takes effort to get it. and this also applies to bitcoin, it is decentralized and it is not easy to mine bitcoin and because the amount is limited and in line with people's demand for it makes it valuable and traded to this day.

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[traderethereum]

This is becoming bizarre. Literally all responders vehemently refuse to the address the argument even when it was expressed in the simplest possible form. And they just talk about irrelevant stuff, do ad hominem attacks, or misrepresented the argument.

Let's me repeat the crux of the argument:

Due to the lack of a practical purpose whose fulfilment would generate a specific amount of benefit, there's no pivot for estimating how many bitcoins to accept for goods or services and it is impossible for market participants to perform a rational trade.

Just repeating the mantra: Bitcoin is money, Bitcoin is money, Bitcoin is money .... cannot change the above described reality.

It's okay if you keep saying bitcoin is not money. But it's also okay if people think bitcoin is money. Each person will certainly stick to their opinion.
But we would probably agree that Bitcoin is a digital currency that is (for the time being, more usable on the internet) than in offline life.
There may be countries that have legalized Bitcoin, but that doesn't mean the government uses bitcoin as currency because that country has its own currency.
Bitcoin may become a currency when all countries recognize bitcoin as a currency so that bitcoin can be used to buy goods offline and online.

For now, it is better to make bitcoin a new investment alongside gold. We prefer to save bitcoins rather than spend them.
To use bitcoin as money or currency, it may require approval from all countries.

[Blitzboy]

stones, metals, gold, money it is a means of exchange depending on where it is widely accepted. you said that bitcoin is not money and that is very true, but it is a means of exchange used by users on the bitcoin network and it is accepted by everyone. whatever your arguments about bitcoin, people will still say that it is a means of exchange and not money.

and bitcoin is a pyramid scheme? what about money, gold, diamonds? is it not a pyramid scheme created by the government? it's all just a bunch of paper and rocks, what makes it valuable is that it's regulated and needed by people and it takes effort to get it. and this also applies to bitcoin, it is decentralized and it is not easy to mine bitcoin and because the amount is limited and in line with people's demand for it makes it valuable and traded to this day.

Without a doubt, anything can be used as payment if its accepted by a group of people, from bitcoin to valuable metals. Bitcoin is valuable because there arent many of them and making them is hard, just like gold and diamonds are valuable because they are hard to get.

But it seems strange to compare traditional assets like gold and fiat currencies to a pyramid scam. These are assets that are backed by governments and financial institutions and whose value has been stabled over hundreds of years of trade and business. But the value of bitcoin changes wildly because it is based on supply and demand. Isnt this lack of uniformity a big departure from what you'd expect from a "means of exchange"?

[CageMabok]

It's important to note that the views expressed in this passage are a matter of interpretation, and there is ongoing debate regarding the nature and value of cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin. Some argue that Bitcoin has value as a digital asset, a store of value, and a decentralized currency, while others share concerns about its volatility and speculative nature. Ultimately, the value and nature of money, as well as the role of cryptocurrencies, are complex topics that continue to evolve and be discussed in the financial and economic communities.

This discussion will never end because every time a new person starts to like Bitcoin and wants to own it, they will continue to ask questions and discuss things related to its volatility and speculative nature. Although on the one hand, new people who are interested in Bitcoin have also understood things related to digital assets, stores of value, and decentralized currency in Bitcoin so they are starting to believe in it for the long term for the investment sector. This is something that is quite normal to be discussed and debated normally because everyone needs to know all these things before there is a feeling of regret after owning any asset, including Bitcoin.

[Agbe]

currency is anything used as a medium of exchange

I also disagree with you on this. Now are you telling us that trade by barter is a Currency? franky1 I know that you know what you are saying but you were in  hurry or thinking of another thing to do so you missed what you wanted to say. Currency is not anything but it is a well designed paper or coin that is use to exchange goods and services. And from your definition yam with sugarcane exchange is also a Currency and that is wrong. Trade by barter is not a Currency but it is goods to goods exchange. As for the Op. Wow!! This is the second time I am seeing someone that doesn't understand the meaning of bitcoin and a anti bitcoin in the forum. For your information all the exchange you mentioned and the definition of Currency and the all the features of money and currency are found in bitcoin. Any unit of money you used in buying things, bitcoin can also be used to bitcoin that thing with the same price. Example. If you you used $20 to buy something, you can use 0.0006 bitcoin  to pay for that thing if the seller accepting bitcoin. So bitcoin automatically a Currency and nothing can change that fact. Please don't confused yourself and other newbies.

[benalexis12]

What is your basis for what you said here? So for you, Bitcoin is not money, right? Bitcoin is not the same as physical money, but it is still money for me, which is why it is called digital currency.

The decentralization of Bitcoin is its uniqueness compared to fiat, where it was created at the central bank. Whereas Bitcoin is not related to any bank, And I am pretty sure you know that too somehow; I just don't understand why you say that. Or maybe you just have the wrong understanding of Bitcoin.

[Aanuoluwatofunmi]

Money is defined as a commodity that can be used to buy any other commodity. Or as a medium of exchange, a store of value and a unit of account. But these definitions are generic. They say nothing about the most important thing - the value of money.

Maybe you're the one mistaken this together, all you have said are part of what you can discover with bitcoin, because it has a multiple application in the financial economy, fiat money couldn't perform as how far bitcoin could help in the economic performance, bitcoin is a digital currency, an asset, medium of exchages, store of value, profitable investment and many more other benefits which fiat couldn't achieve giving.

[DooMAD]

Literally all responders vehemently refuse to the address the argument even when it was expressed in the simplest possible form. And they just talk about irrelevant stuff, do ad hominem attacks, or misrepresented the argument.

Let's me repeat the crux of the argument:

Due to the lack of a practical purpose whose fulfilment would generate a specific amount of benefit, there's no pivot for estimating how many bitcoins to accept for goods or services and it is impossible for market participants to perform a rational trade.

Again, you're misrepresenting your own argument.  You are artificially imposing the condition that the only way money can supposedly have a "benefit" is if it is returned to banks.  See your words here:

it is the purpose, not the form, what gives value to something. If an item can be used for a concrete purpose besides being exchanged on the market it has value. With fiat currencies, that purpose is - the return to the banks.

Your (absurd) assertion is that money is only useful if banks are involved.  That is the crux of your argument.  So quit moving the goalposts.  It's pretty clear that none of us accept that premise.  Which is why you're not convincing anyone.


Looking forward to your next account in a few months time and we'll do this merry little dance again.   

[kryptqnick]

When you're using a currency, you don't normally care about its value. One fiat currency can have a lot less purchasing power than a different fiat currency, but if you're in a country there one is used and the other isn't, you'll use the one with less purchasing power because what matters is its liquidity, not purpose. I don't think the whole 'return to the banks' purpose bit is convincing.
When you buy a bicycle for 100 units, you need to be sure that you'll be able to exchange these 100 units for something else, that people will be willing to take it. Exchanging Bitcoin for goods directly can be tricky, but selling BTC for something else is really simple, so it does have high liquidity and can function as a medium of exchange.

[Franctoshi]

Money is defined as a commodity that can be used to buy any other commodity. Or as a medium of exchange, a store of value, and a unit of account. But these definitions are generic. They say nothing about the most important thing - the value of money. How do we know the worth of money?

I disagree with you, Based on your definition of money Because Bitcoin possesses such characteristics as a medium of exchange and also as a store of value you mentioned and as well categorized as a commodity by SEC.  Money in other terms can be defined as a belief system that works, Do people believe and trust in the Bitcoin network or as a system that works? The answer is Affirmative,  Bitcoin is a revolutionary internet form of money and people use Bitcoin to trade goods and services both running local and international transactions, just as the traditional fiat monetary system

[Alpha Marine]

A lot of incorrect things you said in your post I don't even know where to start from. Normally I don't reply post like this but this time I'm going to.

Trying to use the fact that 10,000 Bitcoin bought only a pizza a while ago and today it could make you a millionaire is a very lame attempt.
Is the worth of a thousand dollars in the 90s the same value it is today? What $1000 can afford then, is not the same thing it can afford now. The difference is, in the case of Bitcoin, it's value appreciated because it wasn't affected with inflation like you're lovely fiat. The value of currencies is always fluctuating same as Bitcoin.

If you had said Bitcoin is not legal tender because it has not been accepted legally, then you'll have a point, but Bitcoin belongs to no government in particular so nobody can make it legal tender world wide. They can only accept it as legal tender in their countries, like El Salvador. There as people who accept Bitcoin as a medium of exchange.

Also, trying to say money is only money if it can be returned to the banks is quite ridiculous and laughable. So assuming there were no banks the there will be no money?

[Renampun]

...
Now we finally come to Bitcoin. Bitcoin is said to be money. But is that true? Given the above, we can determine this quite easily. All we need to do is answer the following question: can Bitcoin be used for a concrete, practical purpose besides being traded? And here the answer is resolutely - no. Namely, the way Bitcoin was created, is that its author came up with a protocol that assigns virtual points (bitcoins). Points are assigned to bitcoin addresses and stored in a peer-to-peer database. However, whichever owner of an address holds the points, cannot do anything with them except send them to another bitcoin address. They can only exchange them on the market, i.e. use them as a means of exchange. Therefore, no practical purpose exists for which bitcoins would be withdrawn from the market and whose fulfillment would generate a specific amount of benefit to the holders. Consequently, there is no value to estimate. Due to the absence of a value as a reference for how many bitcoins is worth accepting for goods or services, market participants do that blindly. For example, they used to give two pizzas for 10 thousand bitcoins, and today they give the equivalent of a whooping 1,000 houses for the same number of bitcoins. This is a nice practical confirmation of the fact that Bitcoin is not money. It works as money because it is exchanged but is not money because it is purposeless.

If Bitcoin is not money, then what is it? Well, it is a means of recording membership in some kind of decentralized and self-governing pyramid scheme. Members invest purposeful items in it - goods, services and money. They then get recorded by the peer-to-peer network with a certain number of points. Finally, they wait for new investors so they can get out of the scheme. Without new investors, they cannot get purposeful items back - which is how all pyramid schemes operate. Since the Bitcoin scheme is online and thus global, early members made huge profits, which caused great public interest and created a considerable membership base. It is estimated that today the scheme has more than 200 million members.

I really spent a lot of time reading your article where in the end you said bitcoin is a pyramid scheme lol

to understand bitcoin, you won't be able to just use a general understanding of money, bitcoin is future money which means money and also an investment tool. Bitcoin is like gold, even though it has no physical form, every bitcoin that is traded is recorded on the blockchain ledger. always remember that a pyramid scheme or what is called a ponzi scheme will not have fluctuations in value, so it is only a fool who classifies bitcoin as one of the types of pyramid schemes lol.

[_BlackStar]

JamesNZ - say whatever you want to say, but anything misleading won't be easily believed here. Everyone here believes that bitcoin is the one that qualifies as a currency - then you come along and reverse that fact. It's clear you've already lost before the game - someone that doesn't need to shout to say you are wrong and misleading.

[BitDane]

Now we finally come to Bitcoin. Bitcoin is said to be money. But is that true? Given the above, we can determine this quite easily. All we need to do is answer the following question: can Bitcoin be used for a concrete, practical purpose besides being traded?

Umm, You can't buy anything if you don't trade your fiat money, yes?  The act of buying and selling commodities is trading.  Money is use for that, same goes with Bitcoin.  If we pay our bills with Bitcoin, we trade Bitcoin for the services.  If we buy candies with Bitcoin, we trade Bitcoin for that chocolate.  Since some merchant does not accept BTC directly(same goes with local currencies), we convert/trade our Bitcoin to fiat that is internationally recognized to purchase things.  Bitcoin having the feature of being used as currency to purchase and buy things, and being globally recognized to be traded with fiat money, isn't that enough proof that Bitcoin can be use for concrete and practical use?

Money is a medium of exchange; it allows people and businesses to obtain what they need to live and thrive.
Bartering was one way that people exchanged goods for other goods before money was created.
Like gold and other precious metals, money has worth because for most people it represents something valuable.
Fiat money is government-issued currency that is not backed by a physical commodity but by the stability of the issuing government.
Above all, money is a unit of account - a socially accepted standard unit with which things are priced.

source

[JamesNZ]

I am still waiting for someone to address my argument:

Due to the lack of a practical purpose whose fulfilment would generate a specific amount of benefit, there's no pivot for estimating how many bitcoins to accept for goods or services and it is impossible for market participants to perform a rational trade.

But for some odd reason, everyone vehemently refuse to address it. It's hilariously funny to watch this show.

[Fivestar4everMVP]

So here we have the same problem as in my previous thread - the responders are ignoring my arguments and talk about completely irrelevant stuff.

Let's repeat the arguments in the simplest form.

A) Why's Bitcoin not money?
Because it is purposeless. Meaning, when bitcoins are bought they can never be used for anything, and whoever holds them must ultimately sold them - dump them on someone else.

Due to the lack of a purpose whose fulfilment would generate a specific amount of benefit, there's no pivot for estimating how many bitcoins to accept for goods or services and is, thus, impossible to perform a rational trade.

B) Why is Bitcoin a pyramid-style scheme?
Because whoever invested purposeful items in it cannot get such items back without new investors.

So, it's not about definitions. It's about reality. In reality Bitcoin is purposeless and existing investors need new investors to get out. Definitions cannot change reality.

Well, as convincing enough as this looks, I definitely will want to agree with you that bitcoin is not money per say, in general terms though, most especially, when we try to look at what the true definition of money is.
But coming back to other vices, Bitcoin is still a medium of exchange and an asset that can be invested in, and i completely disagree that bitcoin is a pyramid style scheme, this argument of yours is completely false
Think about investing in gold, think about investing in shares, think about investing in real estate, think about investing in landed properties, houses, think about investing in precious stones and metals like silver, diamond and the likes. All this I mentioned requires new investors for previous investors to get out in profit, does this make all of them a pyramid scheme? i need a NO or a YES answer from you.
if your answer is NO, then it means bitcoin is not a pyramid scheme, but if your answer is YES, then, indeed, Bitcoin is a pyramid scheme to you and people with the same mindset as you.

[JamesNZ]

So here we have the same problem as in my previous thread - the responders are ignoring my arguments and talk about completely irrelevant stuff.

Let's repeat the arguments in the simplest form.

A) Why's Bitcoin not money?
Because it is purposeless. Meaning, when bitcoins are bought they can never be used for anything, and whoever holds them must ultimately sold them - dump them on someone else.

Due to the lack of a purpose whose fulfilment would generate a specific amount of benefit, there's no pivot for estimating how many bitcoins to accept for goods or services and is, thus, impossible to perform a rational trade.

B) Why is Bitcoin a pyramid-style scheme?
Because whoever invested purposeful items in it cannot get such items back without new investors.

So, it's not about definitions. It's about reality. In reality Bitcoin is purposeless and existing investors need new investors to get out. Definitions cannot change reality.

Well, as convincing enough as this looks, I definitely will want to agree with you that bitcoin is not money per say, in general terms though, most especially, when we try to look at what the true definition of money is.
But coming back to other vices, Bitcoin is still a medium of exchange and an asset that can be invested in, and i completely disagree that bitcoin is a pyramid style scheme, this argument of yours is completely false
Think about investing in gold, think about investing in shares, think about investing in real estate, think about investing in landed properties, houses, think about investing in precious stones and metals like silver, diamond and the likes. All this I mentioned requires new investors for previous investors to get out in profit, does this make all of them a pyramid scheme? i need a NO or a YES answer from you.
if your answer is NO, then it means bitcoin is not a pyramid scheme, but if your answer is YES, then, indeed, Bitcoin is a pyramid scheme to you and people with the same mindset as you.

Why is it so hard for you people to address the actual argument? If the OP is to complex for you to comprehend, if the summary is to complex, if one sentence is to complex, let me express the argument in a single word: purpose.

A pyramid scheme means investing purposeful items, and being unable to return such items without new investors. Real estate, precious stones and metals are purposeful so you don't need new investors to get purposeful items back - you already have them.

Money means purposeful item because the fulfilment of a purpose generates a specific amount of benefit that is then compared with the amount of benefit generated by good and services.

Virtual points (bitcoins) that a protocol assigned to an address have no purpose that can be fulfilled. So, if you trade something purposeful for these points, by definition, you need new investors to give you something purposeful - and that's pyramid-style scheme. Also, due to the lack of a purpose there's no pivot for comparing these points with goods and services which is why they are not money.

Can you now start addressing the argument or a single word is to complex as well?

[savetheFORUM]

B) Why is Bitcoin a pyramid-style scheme?
Because whoever invested purposeful items in it cannot get such items back without new investors.

So, it's not about definitions. It's about reality. In reality Bitcoin is purposeless and existing investors need new investors to get out. Definitions cannot change reality.

That's not true. People around the world are using Bitcoin to buy houses, properties, groceries, and even cars as some companies are now accepting Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies through third-party payment gateways, if I remember correctly, Honda company is doing that now. So, what you say isn't correct, Bitcoin isn't purposeless nor it's a pyramid scheme because if you can use Bitcoin to pay for buying some good or a service, you are basically using it like money, and money does have a purpose.

Even if Bitcoin isn't money, yet, since governments aren't legalizing the use of Bitcoin which is what's required for it to be called money, it still has a purpose, it provides an opportunity for the unbanked to be their own bank and be able to store their own wealth safely and in a decentralized manner.

[Rikafip]

I am still waiting for someone to address my argument

All your arguments were addressed numerous times before and every time you come back with yet another alt sharing the same old stuff. What I don't understand is how are you not bored with it and do you really believe that you will change anyone's opinion here?

It's hilariously funny to watch this show.

I do agree that its funny to watch this show but not for the reasons you might think.  

[Lucius]

~snip~
But for some odd reason, everyone vehemently refuse to address it. It's hilariously funny to watch this show.

If you find it funny to watch yourself make a fool of yourself, then you can continue to enjoy it as much as you want. If I were you, I would seek professional help, considering that for years you have been trying to prove something about which you obviously do not have enough knowledge, and you are not intelligent enough to remember the passwords of your old BTT accounts, but you create new ones and write the same nonsense.

The only thing we can hope for is that at some point you will have to get off the pocket money that mom and dad give you and that you will have to start earning a living - and then maybe you will understand some things and won't have too much time for nonsense.