Is the irreversibility of Bitcoin transactions a downside for an average person?

[adaseb]

Remember ebay/Paypal?

They basically had a system which sided with the buyers generally. It got to the point where many people stopped selling on eBay altogether because there were too many claims opened against sellers and the transactions were easily reversed and the seller was stuck with no product and no money.

This is a bad centralised system where it doesn't work in general. Hence payments like bitcoin are better because if people can trust one another then it can work as a exchange. Its easier to learn how to spot scams and protect yourself to not get your crypto stolen so you don't have to reverse it rather than have not and have to deal with transactions which can get reversed.

[PepeLapiu]

In the end, I like choice. So you have the choice to use your fiat that constantly loses value over time, and basically controlled by someone else looking over your shoulder for every trabsaction.
Or, you have the choice to use Bitcoin and put on your big boy pants when you spend it.

It's up to you. Nobody's got a gun to your head forcing you to use Bitcoin.

In the past, you were forced to use the censorship surveillance money. You had no choice. Now you do.

[libert19]

I like irreversibility because it confirms that once I receive money it's mine and no one can take it away unlike bank and paypal's chargebacks (I have been there).

Those that send money generally want to have an option to reverse the transaction if there's a mistake or if they didn't receive what they wanted.

Stick to trusted merchants, so they refund you if their product is not upto the mark.

In our world a lot more people are senders rather than receivers.

I don't get the statement, every sender implies reciever on the other end.

[Blitzboy]

Remember ebay/Paypal?

They basically had a system which sided with the buyers generally. It got to the point where many people stopped selling on eBay altogether because there were too many claims opened against sellers and the transactions were easily reversed and the seller was stuck with no product and no money.

This is a bad centralised system where it doesn't work in general. Hence payments like bitcoin are better because if people can trust one another then it can work as a exchange. Its easier to learn how to spot scams and protect yourself to not get your crypto stolen so you don't have to reverse it rather than have not and have to deal with transactions which can get reversed.

Without a question, the eBay/Paypal system is the worst example of what can happen when a centralized system isnt working right. Because you pointed out problems with the way things are built that leave sellers open to being ripped off, switching to decentralized currencies like Bitcoin is not only a good idea, its necessary. With Bitcoin, deals are direct and cant be changed. This gets rid of middlemen and reduces fraud. Everyone is responsible for being alert, which builds a sense of independence and duty.

Also, it might be hard to learn how to spot scams and keep your assets safe, but it is an extremely important skill in our increasingly digital economy. You make the case for a financial rebirth even stronger by saying that we need to adapt to this paradigm shift and use cryptographic currencies. We need to get rid of old, centralized methods and replace them with safe, decentralized ones like Bitcoin.

[Dunamisx]

So why should the people who almost always send money praise Bitcoin's irreversibility if they personally don't directly benefit from it? Should they hope that merchants will lower the prices because they won't have to deal with chargebacks?

You also have highlighted the reason why this may not be possible because p2p network is designed to work that way, anyone that cannot completely comply to the bitcoin network protocols may finds another alternative means, this also indicates that an average person should bot have the mindset right from the start that if the bitcoin transaction are going to be possible on reversal, that's why the exchanges perform the escrow service because they are trusted, and when you send money to your own wallet, you cannot afford making mistake.

[AicecreaME]

Making it reversible is much complicated rather than simply double checking if everything is correct before making a transaction.

Even for an average person, that wouldn't be hard enough to do such simple thing to make their transaction safe. It's not that bitcoin's transaction being irreversible is a downside, the problem here is that some people are not concerned about their transaction might gone wrong because of a very simple mistake, they just copy and paste the address then that's it. That's why it's too late before they realized they made a mistake at their end.

[hatshepsut93]

In our world a lot more people are senders rather than receivers.

I don't get the statement, every sender implies reciever on the other end.

This doesn't mean that there's an equal proportion between senders and receivers. Most people have their salary as the main source of income, and they get it typically once per month. Most of their transactions are sending - they are paying for goods and services. Meanwhile merchants are receivers, they receive thousands upon thousands of transactions per month, and in comparison send only a little.

[TimeTeller]

Making it reversible is much complicated rather than simply double checking if everything is correct before making a transaction.

Even for an average person, that wouldn't be hard enough to do such simple thing to make their transaction safe. It's not that bitcoin's transaction being irreversible is a downside, the problem here is that some people are not concerned about their transaction might gone wrong because of a very simple mistake, they just copy and paste the address then that's it. That's why it's too late before they realized they made a mistake at their end.

We can't expect all people to double-check their transactions especially for those who are in a hurry.
This is why for people who are not yet crypto users, they are hesitant to touch this market.
They are worried that they may get it wrong and would waste their funds for nothing.
But even crypto users can make a mistake if they are careless with what they are doing.
Double-check or triple-check what you are doing, and check the network if you are in the right one.

[NeilLostBitCoin]

this is not a topic about whether Bitcoin's irreversibility is objectively good or bad; it's about the perspective of average person today and what they need from their payment system in their life.

It can be confusing why some consider a certain feature a downside when, in fact, it can be an advantage. In the case of payment systems, those who require reversibility can still use PayPal, which offers that option. However, some sellers or receivers prefer the irreversible transaction of Bitcoin because fraudulent buyers tend to use reversible payment methods like PayPal. This is why PayPal has implemented new requirements for this process, which is no longer as simple as just one click, to minimize fraudulent transactions in their system.

[franky1]

for centuries people used cash/coins. where it got physically handed over to a recipient and if you wanted it back you had to plead to the receiver with good reason

with digital bank accounts you still need to ask a bank.. *

With physical money you will likely be able to talk with the receiver, but with digital money you might accidentally send it to someone you don't know, or the receiver might be unresponsive for some reason.

thats a senders problem not a payment system problem

if your willing to hand a suitcase of cash to a complete stranger.. check your mental health
if you dont know enough about the receiver to file a dispute/slap them with rotten fish if they do you wrong.. accept the risk you put on yourself. and be more cautious.

in real life if a stranger called you up and asked you to post $10k in paper-money cash, to a unregistered/unnamed po box where without collateral or identity proof they said they would make you rich in x months.. 99% of people would laugh and hang up the phone after calling them a scammer.. dont be the 1%

for other situations of genuine trust in privacy advocating traders. there are features like multisig and locks where funds cannot be moved unless conditions are met,
those that want some risk mitigation can use these features or use financial services like escrows/ registered trusted custodians/middlemen who act as middlemen for you to have a safeguard..
much like the dollar. banks act as middlemen/custodians and you can request a bank for the refund.. but you cant request the suitcase of dollar bank notes to refund itself, you ask a middleman service

[Abiky]

So I saw this topic about succesfully returned accidental transaction and it provoked some thoughts.

Those that send money generally want to have an option to reverse the transaction if there's a mistake or if they didn't receive what they wanted. Those that receive money want transactions be irreversible to not get scammed by chargebacks.

In our world a lot more people are senders rather than receivers. An average person receives money once or typically a few times per month and then does dozens or hundreds of payments. And since they receive money from an employer, it's unlikely they will get scammed.

So why should the people who almost always send money praise Bitcoin's irreversibility if they personally don't directly benefit from it? Should they hope that merchants will lower the prices because they won't have to deal with chargebacks?


P. S. - this is not a topic about whether Bitcoin's irreversibility is objectively good or bad; it's about the perspective of average person today and what they need from their payment system in their life.

Such things, huh? Bitcoin was created as a digital cash system without third-parties. It is completely normal to have irreversible transactions. Otherwise, BTC would look more like a bank account. I know there are cases when one would like a refund after being deceived by a scammer, but there's nothing we can do about it. Especially if we're using non-custodial wallets to perform transactions on the Blockchain. If it was a centralized exchange or wallet provider, things would've been different. You'd have the ability to get your money back because there's a middleman behind everything.

If you don't want to get robbed, don't send BTC without doing due diligence. This way, you will avoid many headaches in the long run. Take Bitcoin's irreversibility as a feature, not a bug. This is what keeps it decentralized, after all. For refunds, Fiat currencies are the way to go. Just spend wisely and there should be nothing to worry about.

[philipma1957]

So I saw this topic about succesfully returned accidental transaction and it provoked some thoughts.

Those that send money generally want to have an option to reverse the transaction if there's a mistake or if they didn't receive what they wanted. Those that receive money want transactions be irreversible to not get scammed by chargebacks.

In our world a lot more people are senders rather than receivers. An average person receives money once or typically a few times per month and then does dozens or hundreds of payments. And since they receive money from an employer, it's unlikely they will get scammed.

So why should the people who almost always send money praise Bitcoin's irreversibility if they personally don't directly benefit from it? Should they hope that merchants will lower the prices because they won't have to deal with chargebacks?


P. S. - this is not a topic about whether Bitcoin's irreversibility is objectively good or bad; it's about the perspective of average person today and what they need from their payment system in their life.

good idea for a topic. many people do not need btc to send it. They may need it for other reasons.

If I am a seller its good for me as no whole can try to f me by lying.

If I am a buyer it may not be very valuable at all..

Frankly I don't see btc as an ideal currency I see it more as a long term investment or as escape money.

As escape money the irreversible aspect is priceless.

[oktana]

If Bitcoin were reversible, it’ll mean that there is a middle man involved who decides the status of the transaction. But we don’t want that. People want to know that when they receive or send their Bitcoin, it’s gone and no one has the power to make any changes. There’s a feeling of security that it gives especially when you send money very often. So, if you sent a large amount of money in Bitcoin, you can for sure go to sleep with peace of mind. We just need to be careful when carrying out transactions. If we put up a poll to see how many people have lost their crypto just because they sent it to the wrong address, it won’t be a lot compared to those who have never made the mistake.

[Alpha Marine]

The main problem, if Bitcoin was reversible would be when to be reversible and when to be irreversible.
If someone pays for goods and after receiving the goods reverses the payment? What happens then? How do we know when the person makes an honest mistake and needs to reverse the transaction or when it's a fraudulent activity?
Even with the traditional banking system that is centralized and controlled by third parties, you can't reverse a transaction. If you paid money into the wrong account or overpay for instance then the goodwill of the beneficiary will determine what happens next.

I would have loved for Bitcoin transactions to be reversible if it were possible, but there will be too much inconsistency and this can be a very big problem for it.

[Yatsan]

The main problem, if Bitcoin was reversible would be when to be reversible and when to be irreversible.
If someone pays for goods and after receiving the goods reverses the payment? What happens then? How do we know when the person makes an honest mistake and needs to reverse the transaction or when it's a fraudulent activity?
Even with the traditional banking system that is centralized and controlled by third parties, you can't reverse a transaction. If you paid money into the wrong account or overpay for instance then the goodwill of the beneficiary will determine what happens next.

I would have loved for Bitcoin transactions to be reversible if it were possible, but there will be too much inconsistency and this can be a very big problem for it.

Not only with Bitcoin but also with fiat transactions. Reversal of payments would be a bad thing and is prone to abuse from bad people unless there will be ‘something’ to regulate and check each transaction’s legitimacy which is quite of an impossible thing. Even with fiat digital payment, reversal of payments are not absolute. In some instances perhaps with active accounts receiving mistakenly sent amount, they could easily transfer it or withdraw it. I have experienced reversing a transaction before but that is only because the account where I’ve sent it is inactive; can’t imagine if it is. And with Bitcoin wherein transactions are anonymous, I think it would be harder for such function to imply.

[_BlackStar]

I remember one of bitcoin's innovations and that was Dispute mediation. The service allows third parties to approve or reject a transaction in the event of a dispute as explained in its description - so this may be just what you need.

Source: https://bitcoin.org/en/innovation#mediation

Bitcoin can be used to develop innovative dispute mediation services using multiple signatures. Such services could make it possible for a third party to approve or reject a transaction in case of disagreement between the other parties without having control of their money. Since these services would be compatible with any user and merchant using Bitcoin, this would likely lead to free competition and higher quality standards.

OP – there will be pros and cons. Some people need these features developed - while most others don't want them. I don't really need it - but I'm sure others might. This may be subjective - but ideas like these have their uses too.

[BitDane]

Remember ebay/Paypal?

They basically had a system which sided with the buyers generally. It got to the point where many people stopped selling on eBay altogether because there were too many claims opened against sellers and the transactions were easily reversed and the seller was stuck with no product and no money.

This is a bad centralised system where it doesn't work in general. Hence payments like bitcoin are better because if people can trust one another then it can work as a exchange. Its easier to learn how to spot scams and protect yourself to not get your crypto stolen so you don't have to reverse it rather than have not and have to deal with transactions which can get reversed.

I believe reversible and irreversible type of payment has its strength and weakness.  While centralized services that allows payment to be reversed and favors the buyers but create unfavorable environment to seller, irreversible payment also has its flaw when the seller intend to scam its buyer.

If spotting scammers are too easy then client should have easily detected scam offers and can easily avoid them but we have seen many people getting scammed even though they are very careful with  their dealings.

[krishnaverma]

This irreversibility is a book for online goods and services seller as once they get paid by buyer, the buyer cannot charge back. On other payment mediums like PayPal, there is always a chance of charge back which leads to considerable loss for the seller. If we see felm the point of buyer, he might not be happy with this medium as in some cases seller can also cheat.

[bayu7adi]

For some people, it might seem like a good idea if Bitcoin transactions could be reversed without needing the recipient's approval... but I believe that such a feature would not have brought Bitcoin to where it is today. I consider irreversibility to be a fair characteristic of Bitcoin, where a sender needs to be cautious when handling their Bitcoin. We shouldn't send Bitcoin when we are not paying attention and being careful, as it could have serious consequences.

I know that most people in the world really like money... however, Im not sure how many people would want to engage in dishonest practices by taking advantage of the imperfect nature of a product or transaction tool. The truth is, there are still good hearted people who are willing to return their BTC to the original sender because the recipient may not deserve the BTC they received. this means that there are people who appreciate the irreversibility feature, and there are those who do not.

I'm one of the people who appreciate it because this feature is fair for everyone.

[YUriy1991]

The main problem, if Bitcoin was reversible would be when to be reversible and when to be irreversible.
If someone pays for goods and after receiving the goods reverses the payment? What happens then? How do we know when the person makes an honest mistake and needs to reverse the transaction or when it's a fraudulent activity?
Even with the traditional banking system that is centralized and controlled by third parties, you can't reverse a transaction. If you paid money into the wrong account or overpay for instance then the goodwill of the beneficiary will determine what happens next.

In transactions, both payments and purchases cannot be canceled once they have been made and no one can block them. So, to reduce errors, enter the Bitcoin address and amount correctly. This means that the irreversible nature of Bitcoin transactions does give users greater control over their funds, but also responsibility for the mistakes they make. Bitcoin is the way to go. To use Bitcoin, however, we have to know a few things about it first