Bitcoin and the urban myth of the money of the future

[JamesNZ]

Ten years ago, so-called 'cryptocurrencies' appeared on the market. First Bitcoin, then real inflation followed, which today counts over 20,000 of them. But what are cryptocurrencies actually? If we ask their authors, they will say: "digital money". Each of the authors will present their crypto project as modern money in the form of digital coins or tokens that are transferred quickly and stored securely using innovative blockchain technology. Let's mention right away that this technology is nothing special, but a method of storing data in peer-to-peer controlled databases. For example, one buys that digital token and then instead of some centrally organized system, the data about that purchase is managed by a network of computers.

So, according to the authors' stories, as well as the stories of those who believe the authors, cryptocurrencies are modern and advanced money, i.e. the money of the future. But are these stories true? Well, we can say that they perfectly fit the saying "If something seems too good to be true, it is not true."

Let's start with the following question: how do the crypto authors actually create this 'money'? It's simple - they imagine a number and write a protocol for attributing units of that number to online addresses. The units are initially attributed to system maintainers ('cryptocurrency miners'). They send the units to other users registered in the system, who then send them to each other. And that's basically it. So this 'money' is created by arbitrary declarations. The authors come up with some numbers and that is the 'supply' of cryptocurrencies. With Bitcoin, for example, one unit of such created number currently costs $35,000.

Anyone rational would now ask: how can something like that cost so much money? Seriously, by what logic does some invisible and intangible token created by a mere declaration of an anonymous author cost the equivalent of a new car?

Crypto units do not represent shares in ownership of a company for the size of the company's equity to serve as a value reference for market price fluctuations.

Authors of crypto protocols do not redeem these units for a predetermined amount of money, goods or services, like issuers of casino tokens or gift cards do, for this amount to serve as a value reference.

These authors often compare themselves to banks. They say their units are like bank units, but way better. However, that is not true. Banks issue their units as debt - as loans to individuals and companies or as the purchase of government bonds. That is why the units must be returned to the banks. An individual who received 10,000 units from the bank and used them to buy a new car on the market will have to return goods, services or labor equivalent to that car to the market to get the units and return them to the bank. Otherwise, the bank will seize their car, offer it to the market and return the units by itself. Crypto units are not issued as a debt that must be returned to the authors of crypto protocols, so that during that return market receives goods, services, labor or seized property - for this to serve as a value reference.

Finally, crypto units cannot be drunk, eaten, built into products, worn as jewelry, viewed as a picture or movie, or listened to as music. In short, they do not have an intrinsic value that creates a certain amount of benefit through the fulfillment of human needs, for this benefit to serve as a reference for the value of these units.
 
Why then does one unit of bitcoin cost a whopping $35,000? What serves as a value reference? What can a bitcoin buyer get from a bitcoin author or a bitcoin unit itself that is worth in the range of that dollar amount? Well, the answer is, nothing. The value reference does not exist. Rather, the buyer pays $35,000 only because they believe they will sell the unit at a higher price. There are a lot of such buyers globally, so sellers keep putting higher prices. With such purely speculative behavior, prices went from zero to a high of $69,000.

So what the authors of cryptocurrencies create is not money. Money must have a value reference so that market participants can determine how many monetary units are worth accepting as payment for goods and services. What these authors create is a record of membership in self-governing pyramid schemes. Unlike traditional pyramids, these do not have operators who collect and distribute funds. Instead, individuals pay into schemes by giving funds directly to existing members. The protocols then mark or update them as members by changing numbers next to their online addresses. Finally, members await the entry of new contributors. Without them, they cannot get their funds back - which is how all investment pyramids operate.

As we can see, the story of cryptocurrencies is actually the story of an innovative technology for recording participation in good old pyramid schemes. This technology is significant because it kicked out fraudsters like Charles Ponzi or Bernie Madoff from such schemes. Consequently, all profits remain in the pockets of the participants themselves. However, blockchain technology does not manage any digital money. That money is only simulated with protocols, just like paper money is simulated with the game of Monopoly. So the whole story about the money of the future is just an urban myth and a bait for attracting contributors to modern-day pyramid schemes.

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[franky1]

they imagine a number and write a protocol for attributing units of that number to online addresses.

oh look who it is again.. trolling that bitcoin has no economics/function/utility and is just numbers
even when using AI to hide your normal whiting style, it still seems obvious your the same troll..

havnt you learned anything from the last several accounts you made to fail at basic economics

..
lets dumb it down for you, again

bitcoin doesnt just create numbers. it uses WORK (calculations that cost electric to perform a task that generates bitcoin as a reward for work(cost))
for security... people then trade that reward for money or use that reward for many things... speculating above the most cheapest work cost on the planet, because different people have different work costs to generate bitcoin so some people want to just buy instead of work for it. yep some lucky places can work for $20k/btc. while other island nations its more like $150k work cost to generate fresh bitcoin rewards.. so the market speculates in between value and premium

the reason why bitcoin is above $20k base value and market speculating at $35k.. vs an altcoin of similar PoW method that trades at $1.20.. is that the amount of WORK the altcoin at $1 puts in is 20,000-30,000 less work cost

bitcoin is not just a "unit generator" its purpose is to do many things. the work and reward is for securing the other features bitcoin does and people want to do things on bitcoin using it

there are some crapcoins that market speculate outside of their underlying security cost. even hyper speculate above the most world wide premium of security cost (most PoS coins)..

there are some tokens that dont even have proof of transfer, dont have secure auditing, dont have secure ownership proofs..

bitcoin are not like those PoS or token crap. bitcoin does have many features that make it useful, secure, provable

[JamesNZ]

they imagine a number and write a protocol for attributing units of that number to online addresses.

oh look who it is again.. trolling that bitcoin has no economics/function/utility and is just numbers
even when using AI to hide your normal whiting style, it still seems obvious your the same troll..

havnt you learned anything from the last several accounts you made to fail at basic economics

..
lets dumb it down for you, again

bitcoin doesnt just create numbers. it uses WORK (calculations that cost electric to perform a task that generates bitcoin as a reward for work(cost))
for security... people then trade that reward for money or use that reward for many things... speculating above the most cheapest work cost on the planet, because different people have different work costs to generate bitcoin so some people want to just buy instead of work for it. yep some lucky places can work for $20k/btc. while other island nations its more like $150k work cost to generate fresh bitcoin rewards.. so the market speculates in between value and premium

the reason why bitcoin is above $20k base value and market speculating at $35k.. vs an altcoin of similar PoW method that trades at $1.20.. is that the amount of WORK the altcoin at $1 puts in is 20,000-30,000 less work cost

bitcoin is not just a "unit generator" its purpose is to do many things. the work and reward is for securing the other features bitcoin does and people want to do things on bitcoin using it

there are some crapcoins that market speculate outside of their underlying security cost. even hyper speculate above the most world wide premium of security cost (most PoS coins)..

there are some tokens that dont even have proof of transfer, dont have secure auditing, dont have secure ownership proofs..

bitcoin are not like those PoS or token crap. bitcoin does have many features that make it useful, secure, provable

Let's me educate you a bit. Bitcoin is a system of computers and protocols that manage units of the number 21 million. There's no value, or money in this. The whole thing is just a way to record the participation in an investment pyramid and simulate bank deposits. Your propaganda for attracting contributors to this scheme is just cringe and no one falls for it anymore.

[franky1]

learn that real world costs create value/premium...
value is minimum cost
premium is maximum costs

no one can create for less so wont sell for less thus creating the value suport line
if everyone can create for less than premium, then no one buys above premium creating the premium resistance line

if something has utility. people then desire it and they speculate a PRICE inbetween value and premium

bitcoin does things. provides functionality many uses to people, its not 'just creating numbers'

if you really want to do some value research you can look at the cost bases of mining.
compare that to other tokens and crap coins that have less utility less functionality less security and little/no underlying cost.. then go see why bitcoin is different to them..

if you want to cry about zero value units being speculated at premium prices.. go find the many altcoins/tokens.. but along the way learn what make them different to bitcoin

[FatFork]

Ten years ago, so-called 'cryptocurrencies' appeared on the market.
<snip>

Six years ago, you were spouting the same nonsense under the now-banned fxsurfer account. Since then, you've been on a marathon of creating countless accounts – Snowshow, Antikvark, Antithesis, niwrad – all to cover your tracks. Yet, despite the effort, your ignorance remains impressively intact. Time to break the cycle, maybe?


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2239552.0


Relevant thread: Ban evasion (account fxsurfer)

[kryptqnick]

Let's mention right away that this technology is nothing special, but a method of storing data in peer-to-peer controlled databases. For example, one buys that digital token and then instead of some centrally organized system, the data about that purchase is managed by a network of computers.

"Nothing special" isn't really a good argument because it can be said about tons of things that become important eventually. Mobile phones? Nothing special, just your regular phone without a wire. Smartphones? Nothing special, just a regular mobile phone with a fancy screen. Wi-Fi? Nothing special, just your regular Internet without the cables. Same goes for Bitcoin being nothing special, just a decentralized digital currency.

Finally, crypto units cannot be drunk, eaten, built into products, worn as jewelry, viewed as a picture or movie, or listened to as music. In short, they do not have an intrinsic value that creates a certain amount of benefit through the fulfillment of human needs, for this benefit to serve as a reference for the value of these units.

Well, cash can't be worn, drunk or eaten either, and yet somehow it's not considered a downside.

Overall, it's a really typical take for a sceptical person, so there's nothing surprising here. But this take clearly ignores how fiat money is literally called 'fiat' is a sense 'let it be' because the price is whatever the issuing authority says it is, as long as they can keep it as that level with various policies and people trust in it. And when that fails, the price goes way down, and we have a rapid loss of value.

[buwaytress]

What future? Bitcoin is here and now, and pretty much my past of 7 years. What value definition is based solely on being able to eat/drink/wear it? Bitcoin does everything that money can, with much more freedom of use.

P.S. OP is one reason there's the myth of new users unable to write without AI. Also the reason there's the myth that newbies find it so hard to break into bitcointalk. You can write, without AI. Forum's full of non-native English speakers (hello). You can, as a newbie, break into bitcointalk. Don't be OP.

[franky1]

Six years ago, you were spouting the same nonsense under the now-banned fxsurfer account.

he has had a few accounts over the years, i started to not even bother trying to remember all his accounts.
he keeps doing this every 3-6 months or so. for years.. but he never spends the time actually learning the bitcoin technology or the cost factors or the utility. or economics, or, or, or

the most annoying thing about some trolls that persist for years.. is when they stick to their own story for soo many years even though they get debunked soo easily. and never even use the time they waste to even learn bitcoin read code read blockdata, learn economics, common sense or logic

it like watching a blind person walk into a brick wall. and then just keep doing it.
sometimes you want to help them.
sometimes you want to let them just keep looking like an idiot
sometimes you want to respond not for their benefit but to teach other onlookers what to do to avoid hitting a wall for others benefit

[BlackHatCoiner]

What serves as a value reference?

A unit that is censorship-resistant, denationalized, permissionless, always-available, private and insusceptible to any state intervention. Has value as long as people say so.

What future? Bitcoin is here and now, and pretty much my past of 7 years. What value definition is based solely on being able to eat/drink/wear it? Bitcoin does everything that money can, with much more freedom of use.

Don't bother to engage in discussion with him, he's a stubborn troll who has ignored everything told about Bitcoin's monetary value, around 5 times already. He is completely incapable of comprehending the invaluable properties of Bitcoin as money; his comprehension goes as far as fiat money.

[Upgrade00]

I was almost surei had seen this similar discussion brought up by a troll at some point in the past but couldn't remember where exactly.
The only good takeaway from the constant trolling is that he now and again presents the opportunity for newer members who may be having the wrong perception.

But on a second thought, there should not be members here who are this misinformed about how Bitcoin works or how money works to think in the same way the OP does and possibly share their arguments.

[CryptoHeadlineNews]

Why then does one unit of bitcoin cost a whopping $35,000? What serves as a value reference? What can a bitcoin buyer get from a bitcoin author or a bitcoin unit itself that is worth in the range of that dollar amount? Well, the answer is, nothing. The value reference does not exist. Rather, the buyer pays $35,000 only because they believe they will sell the unit at a higher price.

The value of Bitcoin truly exist, and it's value is in it's scarcity, limited supply and ability to be a coin not easily mined by anyone. Because just as the price of fiat is been given by it's community of users, likewise is the value of Bitcoin been influence by it's community of users, both on and off the forum. Henceforth, the earlier people start getting use to Bitcoin, the digital currency of the 21st century, the  better for these ignorant who claim bitcoin has no value or use case.

So what the authors of cryptocurrencies create is not money. Money must have a value reference so that market participants can determine how many monetary units are worth accepting as payment for goods and services. What these authors create is a record of membership in self-governing pyramid schemes.

The people determined the value of money, and likewise has the people also determined the value of Bitcoin through it's monetary value in dollar, and as such bitcoin do not need a reference point the measure the unit of BTC apart from it's value in btc.

[oktana]

Let's me educate you a bit. Bitcoin is a system of computers and protocols that manage units of the number 21 million. There's no value, or money in this. The whole thing is just a way to record the participation in an investment pyramid and simulate bank deposits. Your propaganda for attracting contributors to this scheme is just cringe and no one falls for it anymore.

Wait a minute. Bitcoin is not a system of computers and protocols that manage units of the 21 units! Instead, it is a decentralized digital currency that runs on the Blockchain. It works the same way as other currencies except in this case, it isn't controlled by anyone. You mention Bitcoin being a pyramid and simulating bank deposits, well, that's not true; when sending Bitcoin we're not being asked: "What Bank" or "What Country" (questions that even the World Bank asks). What do you even mean by propaganda? I think you even know all of these but for some reason, you don't want to admit the truth.

[Bananington]

As we can see, the story of cryptocurrencies is actually the story of an innovative technology for recording participation in good old pyramid schemes. This technology is significant because it kicked out fraudsters like Charles Ponzi or Bernie Madoff from such schemes. Consequently, all profits remain in the pockets of the participants themselves. However, blockchain technology does not manage any digital money. That money is only simulated with protocols, just like paper money is simulated with the game of Monopoly. So the whole story about the money of the future is just an urban myth and a bait for attracting contributors to modern-day pyramid schemes.

BTC has sure opened eyes to other realities that is possible and the fact that it is money that can be spent and increases in value, is what makes it special. Am glad it is also in correspondence with the innovations of these times. The introduction of AI technology, copy trading, web3, metaverse and virtual reality has more than made the statement of it being a money of the future very highly probable.

[JamesNZ]

Ten years ago, so-called 'cryptocurrencies' appeared on the market.
<snip>

Six years ago, you were spouting the same nonsense under the now-banned fxsurfer account. Since then, you've been on a marathon of creating countless accounts – Snowshow, Antikvark, Antithesis, niwrad – all to cover your tracks. Yet, despite the effort, your ignorance remains impressively intact. Time to break the cycle, maybe?


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2239552.0


Relevant thread: Ban evasion (account fxsurfer)

So, you're stalking forum users critical of bitcoin and then accuse them of being some banned dude. Hilarious.

What serves as a value reference?

A unit that is censorship-resistant, denationalized, permissionless, always-available, private and insusceptible to any state intervention. Has value as long as people say so.

What future? Bitcoin is here and now, and pretty much my past of 7 years. What value definition is based solely on being able to eat/drink/wear it? Bitcoin does everything that money can, with much more freedom of use.

Don't bother to engage in discussion with him, he's a stubborn troll who has ignored everything told about Bitcoin's monetary value, around 5 times already. He is completely incapable of comprehending the invaluable properties of Bitcoin as money; his comprehension goes as far as fiat money.

That's not value reference. Let's me help you. Suppose that all current participants of the Bitcoin pyramid transfer all their bitcoin units to you. Question: if no new investors buy your units what can you get from Satoshi Nakamoto or from the units themselves? That's value reference. Given that the answer is nothing, all those features that you mention mean nothing. They just serve as bait to attract new investors in the Bitcoin pyramid scheme.

[retreat]

-snip-
Let's me educate you a bit. Bitcoin is a system of computers and protocols that manage units of the number 21 million. There's no value, or money in this. The whole thing is just a way to record the participation in an investment pyramid and simulate bank deposits. Your propaganda for attracting contributors to this scheme is just cringe and no one falls for it anymore.

You should educate yourself again before educating others. What you said is full of nonsense and even some parts were generated by AI. What you say is nothing more than your personal assumption without any strong basis for it. If you say that Bitcon is ordinary digital money without any economy in it, then you are very wrong and what you write has no meaning whatsoever. Instead of whining like the 13 year olds on this forum saying that Bitcoin is nothing, you better wash your feet and go back to sleep.

[JamesNZ]

-snip-
Let's me educate you a bit. Bitcoin is a system of computers and protocols that manage units of the number 21 million. There's no value, or money in this. The whole thing is just a way to record the participation in an investment pyramid and simulate bank deposits. Your propaganda for attracting contributors to this scheme is just cringe and no one falls for it anymore.

You should educate yourself again before educating others. What you said is full of nonsense and even some parts were generated by AI. What you say is nothing more than your personal assumption without any strong basis for it. If you say that Bitcon is ordinary digital money without any economy in it, then you are very wrong and what you write has no meaning whatsoever. Instead of whining like the 13 year olds on this forum saying that Bitcoin is nothing, you better wash your feet and go back to sleep.

You treat Bitcoin as a person or God, and then get insulted when someone criticizes your behavior with regards to it. Let's me repeat. Bitcoin is a network of computers that manage the units of the number 21 million. Nothing related to economy exists in this. The network just simulates bank deposits (which represent debt - an actual economic resource) and in that way attracts users. The whole thing is a digital version of the Monopoly game. The only difference being, of course, that the properties traded for simulated money are real - which makes Bitcoin a pyramid scheme.

[yudi09]

Let's me educate you a bit. Bitcoin is a system of computers and protocols that manage units of the number 21 million. There's no value, or money in this. The whole thing is just a way to record the participation in an investment pyramid and simulate bank deposits. Your propaganda for attracting contributors to this scheme is just cringe and no one falls for it anymore.

Bitcoin does not require people to invest and people who have invested in Bitcoin quite enjoy their investment. If you are not happy with Bitcoin, for us it is not a problem at all because many other people around the world are interested in Bitcoin, including people with big positions in real life. So, OP doesn't need to educate other people because what needs to be educated is yourself because I see you are experiencing unhealthy thoughts.

[glendall]

-snip-
Let's me educate you a bit. Bitcoin is a system of computers and protocols that manage units of the number 21 million. There's no value, or money in this. The whole thing is just a way to record the participation in an investment pyramid and simulate bank deposits. Your propaganda for attracting contributors to this scheme is just cringe and no one falls for it anymore.

You should educate yourself again before educating others. What you said is full of nonsense and even some parts were generated by AI. What you say is nothing more than your personal assumption without any strong basis for it. If you say that Bitcon is ordinary digital money without any economy in it, then you are very wrong and what you write has no meaning whatsoever. Instead of whining like the 13 year olds on this forum saying that Bitcoin is nothing, you better wash your feet and go back to sleep.

You treat Bitcoin as a person or God, and then get insulted when someone criticizes your behavior with regards to it. Let's me repeat. Bitcoin is a network of computers that manage the units of the number 21 million. Nothing related to economy exists in this. The network just simulates bank deposits (which represent debt - an actual economic resource) and in that way attracts users. The whole thing is a digital version of the Monopoly game. The only difference being, of course, that the properties traded for simulated money are real - which makes Bitcoin a pyramid scheme.

it depends on what you say because everyone makes their own assumptions,
How do you say pyramid scheme?
As far as I know, in a pyramid scheme, the top level is the one who will win and make a profit
I don't see a pyramid scheme here
but I don't want to argue with small children, let's study together again so that we know more and don't just talk about bitcoin issues

[AnonBitCoiner]

Bitcoin does not require people to invest and people who have invested in Bitcoin quite enjoy their investment. If you are not happy with Bitcoin, for us it is not a problem at all because many other people around the world are interested in Bitcoin, including people with big positions in real life. So, OP doesn't need to educate other people because what needs to be educated is yourself because I see you are experiencing unhealthy thoughts.

Bitcoin does not force anyone to use it as an investment but its a people's own decision therefore if someone does not find bitcoin as a better source of earning then he should leave this asset because there is no one who will force another to must buy bitcoin. If someone does not accept bitcoin then it does not mean that bitcoin will reduces in price because there are lots of others individuals who already have bought bitcoin in large number. I think no one will be here who bought bitcoin and never find profit from it but actually it is those individuals who have no patience and without knowledge they are buying and selling bitcoin therefore they put all blame on bitcoin and spread wrong information about bitcoin.

[FatFork]

Ten years ago, so-called 'cryptocurrencies' appeared on the market.
<snip>

Six years ago, you were spouting the same nonsense under the now-banned fxsurfer account. Since then, you've been on a marathon of creating countless accounts – Snowshow, Antikvark, Antithesis, niwrad – all to cover your tracks. Yet, despite the effort, your ignorance remains impressively intact. Time to break the cycle, maybe?


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2239552.0


Relevant thread: Ban evasion (account fxsurfer)

So, you're stalking forum users critical of bitcoin and then accuse them of being some banned dude. Hilarious.

I'm not stalking forum users, especially not someone like you. Why on earth would I bother? You keep coming back to this forum of your own free will. Unless, of course, someone's got you on puppet strings. I wouldn't know that.

I'm just laying out the facts relevant to the discussions. If you're so keen on pretending to be someone else and hiding behind a constant trolling spree with new accounts, well, buddy, that's your mess to sort out, not mine.