Mixers to be banned

[stompix]

I have a feeling it's going to be easier to discuss about making a bomb than how to mix some coins.

- Hey, how can I gain privacy in Bitcoin?
- Use mixers!
- Cool, which one?
- WTF, you want to get banned sir?

No , no, no,

It will go like this:
- I can't tell you but I know this guy who sells drugs and guns, here is his telegram nickname, he will tell you everything about privacy!  

That's been handled by a DT weasel already. 😂 you just haven't paid enough attention.

DT members can't ban you, did 7 negatives stop you from posting your views around? Nobody gives a crap about them!
But grab your popcorn because unlike that, this might become serious, as anyone who has received coins for their sig from that address (you know which I'm talking about) and has used these abbreviations is going to have his rectal examinations result files handed to the DOJ sooner or later.  

Isn't Bitcointalk decentralized forum ?

No it's not!
It's run by a single person, it has a domain registrar which can shut it down in an instant, it has a central server, it has mods that can ban you and can delete your posts!
What made you think the forum is decentralized in any way?

[1714313299]

1714313299

[1714313299]

1714313299

[1714313299]

1714313299

[albert0bsd]

Isn't Bitcointalk decentralized forum where everyone has freedom to talk on any subject even against any government?

The Bitcointalk forum isn't decentralized

[Z-tight]

What will be the punishment if there will be "use mixer" in the post where recipe is discussed? Forum algorithm will get triggered and post deleted?

Now serious question, using word a blender or any other veiled version of mixer will be punished?

You'll not get banned for discussing about mixers, you'll get banned when you link people to a certain mixer or if you advertise them in the forum, using the word 'mixer' is not prohibited by this announcement.

He was probably contacted by a fed, or better to say, blackmailed.

I think so too, but i am sure he would not say that here. As a 'true' bitcoiner it is hard to accept this situation, it is like accepting that 'mixers are tools for criminals and money laundering', something we have vehemently argued against in this forum.

[nutildah]

Strange day but not entirely surprising. I understand theymos gotta do what he gotta do to first and foremost make sure the forum doesn't get taken down... that would be a real blow to the history of Bitcoin.

The one thing I'm not quite sure I understand is the KYC part. There are several exchanges that still do not require KYC, even if they aren't allowed to service U.S.-based customers.

Isn't Bitcointalk decentralized forum where everyone has freedom to talk on any subject even against any government?

No, Bitcointalk has never been decentralized. Theymos has done just about as good a job as possible keeping it "free", however. The absence of strict moderation policies make it appear to be decentralized, but it is owned & operated by just a handful of people.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Isn't Bitcointalk decentralized forum

Not decentralized. It is centralized, administrated by theymos, or apparently, by the US government. It's theymos' property and yes, he can ban Bitcoin discussions in general if he wants to.

where everyone has freedom to talk on any subject even against any government?

I guess everyone has freedom to talk except if the stuff they want to share put the butts who own this place under some legal troubles.

I can't tell you but I know this guy who sells drugs and guns, here is his telegram nickname, he will tell you everything about privacy!

I know a guy, who knows a guy. Who knows another guy.


(from youtube.com)


So, just to clear things out. In a month from now, anyone wearing a mixer signature is officially a terrorist!  

[EarnOnVictor]

I believe this is a wise decision, as governments could shut down the forum because of such services.

Frankly, it's a welcome development and I believe theymos has tried enough despite the bad news and deeds surrounding mixers.

If you noticed, it was because of this issue that disclaimers are being issued beneath some posts and some of those mixers often put Bitcointalk as their forum on their site. The Bitcointalk which is supposed to uphold the value of Bitcoin itself shouldn't be dragged into the mud by mixers.

The whole month to embrace the reality is however a very good one and shows how considerate theymos is.

[dzungmobile]

The one thing I'm not quite sure I understand is the KYC part. There are several exchanges that still do not require KYC, even if they aren't allowed to service U.S.-based customers.

They will be well except if they become bigger, bigger and big enough to attract too many U.S.-based customers, and they will be under serious investigations, lawsuits then sanctions like mixers.

Mixers are like exchanges too, they can have criminal money come in or U.S-based customers come in, but only is well until a day something big happens, they will be seized, shutdown. In other words, problems are always there and it's just when those problems will become actual problems.

[zasad@]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5445490.msg61981665#msg61981665
Personally, after this post it was clear to me that mixers would soon be blocked. I even saved the link to this post.

But I don’t think that advertising for mixers will be completely absent. Links to websites and social networks are prohibited, the word mixer is also prohibited, but in Russia advertising through logos is very often used. Everyone knows what is being advertised, but no one calls it by its real name.

[DaveF]

- Hey, how can I gain privacy in Bitcoin?
- Use mixers!
- Cool, which one?
- WTF, you want to get banned sir?

What about?
-To gain privacy of your UTXOs use the Mix function SomeRandom wallet (Non-custodial wallet)?

what if you just point to those functions in our recomendations? That worth a ban?

Wallet discussion is expressly not banned.

Examples of things that are not banned mixers include exchangers (unless they have a mixing function), CoinJoin-supporting non-custodial wallets, and Monero.

-Dave

[LoyceV]

linking to darknet sites is already not allowed.

To be clear: not all .onion sites qualify as darknet, right? I assume I can still link to non-illegal sites (such as protonmailrmezxxxxxxxxxx.onion). Can you clarify this? I already saw some confusion about it earlier today.

- In most cases, old posts will not be deleted. Nobody should be banned for old posts.

How about old avatars? Many inactive and even banned users still have an avatar from a Bitcoin mixer.

It will continue to be OK to discuss mixers in a general sort of way. Just don't direct people to mixers: don't link to a mixer, don't link to a directory with links to mixers, don't tell people to "Google ASDFmixer", don't link to a mixer's telegram, etc.

How about Scams Bitcoin Mixers List and Services closed: I guess it has to be locked too. Phishing sites are going to love this change! Google has shown ads for fake mixers for years.

Will it come to a time of KYC-mixers?

There's no point. If you want to break the link between input A and output B, any regular KYC Bitcoin exchange will do. Nobody on the planet will know the link, except for the exchange. And they'll keep it for the rest of eternity.

It sounds weird now but maybe in future, it will happen and with KYC, mixers will be allowed by laws. The point is to avoid criminals to use mixers, not good people who want privacy to use mixers.

I'm pretty sure that's already allowed.

It is official now, you cannot stay anonymous on the internet

Sure you can, open Tor browser and start over with a new identity.

By 2030, no privacy, no private assets.

That's the real scary part: IRL privacy is getting worse and worse, and you can't get a new identity there.

"KYC" and "mixers" in the same sentence makes it sound like an oxymoron.

It depends on who you're hiding from: I'm not allowed to hide my money from government, but I am allowed to not let my barista know I just visited the red light district (for coffee, of course). But I see no point in sending your KYC information to an anonymous party, or even a "known" party if they're hiding in the Cayman Islands.

2) Mixer links in signatures are allowed, but the announcement and deal agreement must be outside the forum (since links in signatures are an individual responsibility)

"Pssst! There's this thing we're not allowed to talk about it, but if you click the link under my post, you can read all about it!"
Nope, that's not going to work.

- Hey, how can I gain privacy in Bitcoin?
- Use mixers!

More like: use different wallets for different purposes. Don't use your long-term hodling for buying coffee, and don't mix your coffee money with your weird fetish money.

Would you rather have the entire forum shutdown?

I guess it became inevitable to ban mixers, but I didn't expect it to happen this fast. Just 2 days ago someone (a mixer) asked me in PM about the odds of mixers being banned. Things changed fast!

After CM was kicked off it's top position, many other mixers largely increased their advertising budget, all fighting to be the new #1. This went a lot faster than I expected.

[dzungmobile]

But I don’t think that advertising for mixers will be completely absent. Links to websites and social networks are prohibited, the word mixer is also prohibited, but in Russia advertising through logos is very often used. Everyone knows what is being advertised, but no one calls it by its real name.

theymos forgot about avatars in his announcement. He will add this point (point #5), if he sees your post.

- Any remaining mixer signatures (etc.) may be deleted. Anyone persisting in advertising mixers will be banned.

Maybe it is included in "Anyone persisting in advertising mixers will be banned." but if it clearly includes avatars too, it's more clearly.

[KingsDen]

This announcement isn't a surprise to me. I suspected that theymos will do this long ago. I got a clue of this when one staff member revealed that theymos instructed the staff and moderators not to participate in mixer campaigns. It was then I knew that the days of mixers are numbered in here.

Where else will mixers advertise? I mean where do they advertise apart from the forum. Darknet?

[mistercoin]

Bitcointalk.org aims to allow about as much freedom as is reasonably possible. But this is not a darknet forum, and with mixers looking "grayer and grayer", it's no longer reasonably possible to allow linking to mixers. Even though "a cryptocurrency mixing service is not necessarily illegal," a clear pattern has emerged where mixers pop up, last for a little while, and then get taken down by law enforcement once they get too big. Allowing mixers to be posted on bitcointalk.org before they seemingly-inevitably get declared illegal and seized is not sustainable. Therefore, linking to mixers will no longer be allowed, just the same as linking to darknet sites is already not allowed.

To avoid disruption, there will be a grace period: Nothing will change until Jan 1, 2024.

Starting Jan 1, 2024:
 - Existing mixer announcement topics (and a few topics that have no value without mixer-links) will be locked and archived.
 - Going forward, directing people to mixers in new posts/edits will be totally disallowed, and doing so could lead to a ban. Many mixer URLs will be wordfiltered-out, and if you bypass the wordfilter, then that'll definitely be ban-worthy.
 - Any remaining mixer signatures (etc.) may be deleted. Anyone persisting in advertising mixers will be banned.
 - In most cases, old posts will not be deleted. Nobody should be banned for old posts.

You do not need to go edit/delete your past posts. Links will be automatically wordfiltered-out as of Jan 1, or in a few cases mods will archive or delete posts, but you will not be banned for old mixer-related posts.

It will continue to be OK to discuss mixers in a general sort of way. Just don't direct people to mixers: don't link to a mixer, don't link to a directory with links to mixers, don't tell people to "Google ASDFmixer", don't link to a mixer's telegram, etc.

Definition of a mixer

For clarity, here is a detailed definition of what we mean by a "mixer". Most people know intuitively what a mixer is and don't have to read this.

Something is considered a mixer if it meets all of these requirements:
 1. It has a feature advertised for taking property, improving its privacy somehow, and then returning roughly the same type of property.
     a. Even though you can sometimes use non-mixers to mix coins by depositing and then withdrawing, this doesn't make it a mixer because this is an incidental use of the service; the service isn't advertised as privacy-enhancing.
     b. If a site is not primarily a mixer but has a mixer function, such as a mixer function on a gambling website, then the whole site is considered a mixer.
     c. If the site takes coins, gives you a possibly-transferrable IOU, and will convert this IOU back into mixed coins much later, then the temporary conversion into a different type of property does not prevent it from being considered a mixer.
     d. If the site internally converts your deposit into other things as part of its mixing, but ultimately the point of the product is to get your original type of property back, then that's a mixer, not an exchanger.
 2. It is possible for the mixer to steal property passing through it. Assume that the sender does everything as correctly as possible. Also assume that no miners/verifiers on the base-layer cryptocurrency are evil. But assume that every other actor involved is evil (everyone able to vote in a DAO, every coordination server, every counterparty, every member of a multisig, etc.). Ignore short-term software bugs which are expected to be quickly fixed.
 3. The service does not collect KYC-type info from all users.

Examples of things that are not banned mixers include exchangers (unless they have a mixing function), CoinJoin-supporting non-custodial wallets, and Monero.

Can't blame you. These have always made us look bad, even if they're not necessarily always used for illegal things. People who do need them only need to look on the darknet for 2 minutes to find one. I feel we have outgrown that type of thing here..

[cryptosize]

Oh well, I guess some people will stop (shit)posting...

I know someone who made $1200/month (not a lot of money in the USA, but still plenty enough in poorer countries).

If people don't like Theymos' decision (that's fine), they should start a decentralized forum, because bitcointalk.org has always been centralized. Deal with it.

[albert0bsd]

Oh well, I guess some people will stop (shit)posting...

That is some good part, but there is still some users that will continue their shitpost because its their style life.

This notice made me a little sad. I was hoping to join a new campaign and had already counted that income in my budget. Oh no!! Anyway

[TryNinja]

Oh well, I guess some people will stop (shit)posting...

That is some good part, but there is still some users that will continue their shitpost because its their style life.

AFAIK, alts haven't been banned. Aren't most shitposters from low paying, low quality campaigns, like paying $10 a week or just paying in their useless shitcoins? While I did see some low effort posting from mixer advertisers, most were good enough.

[rat03gopoh]

- Hey, how can I gain privacy in Bitcoin?
- Use mixers!
- Cool, which one?
- ....

- I don't know, I think I wrote my recommendation once. Just look in my post history.

If tomorrow Gov declare Bitcoin btc as a money laundering source then we will see Bitcoin word in blacklist and also we will change domain??

If that were to happen I would suggest the nocointalk dot org domain be reserved, or someone should develop a full TOR version of the bitcoin forum

[alani123]

linking to darknet sites is already not allowed.

To be clear: not all .onion sites qualify as darknet, right? I assume I can still link to non-illegal sites (such as protonmailrmezxxxxxxxxxx.onion). Can you clarify this? I already saw some confusion about it earlier today.

Right?
So many mainly clearnet services have .onion website alternatives to combat censorship.
Facebook is among them.

Online library websites also, Zlibrary. Just off the top of my head.
Also file sharing websites like TBP do this to overcome government DNS blocks. There's so many legitimate anti-censorship uses to the TOR service, it'd be a shame to completely have this blocked in bitcointalk.

[albert0bsd]

AFAIK, alts haven't been banned.

Yes i know it, but i don't see the point to join someone only for 4 weeks or less i was looking for a long term campaign like the new of tumbler.

[Ben Barubal]

  If I understand correctly, all communities here that post related to mixers will be filtered out or deleted automatically starting January 1, 2024. Is that right?

  So does this also mean we won't see signature campaigns related to mixers? And does that also mean that the signature campaigns of the mixers here on the forum platform are only until December? right?