Mixers to be banned

[suchmoon]

Well, it is what it is. What strikes me as very odd is the severity of the ban. It sounds like we can't mention any mixer names even in casual/news/discussion context. Like if next year I wanted to say that some xyzmixer is sketchy AF and should be avoided, looks like I can be banned under the new rules.

I doubt it will be this much; warning about using x mixer isn't exactly the same as "pointing someone" to use it.

If saying "google xyz" is not allowed, I don't see how saying "xyz" in any context would be allowed, unless we think that everyone here is an idiot and wouldn't know you can google things if not specifically told to do so.

Like "hey I found this website xyz, is this legit", happens sometimes on this forum. If this is allowed, it's a loophole that will get abused.

Keep in mind that this is not just about services that are called "xyzmixer" but also sites that are "not primarily a mixer but has a mixer function". This puts a lot of burden on the user having to know if some site they link to or mention might have a mixer function.

Edit: theymos posted a revision of the new rules that allows mentioning a mixer (without a url) https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5476162.msg63255213#msg63255213

[1714233816]

1714233816

[1714233816]

1714233816

[1714233816]

1714233816

[yhiaali3]

Uncle Sam wins...Satoshi loses

This would be a great title for an article that I may write later, or I will leave it open source for anyone who wants to write it!!!

[Mahdirakib]

Will crypto non KYC casinos be next as they too can be used for mixing.

The terms of the casino won't allow the user to use it as a mixer. Because, casino doesn't allow the user to deposit and withdraw their coin without wagering the deposit 'X' times (X= 1, 2, 3, ...,10, ...). There is a high chance of losing small to big amount of the deposits during the wagering process. Moreover, the number of No-KYC casinos have decreased significantly as the regulations have increased widely in the crypto gambling industry. Even unlicensed casinos have the KYC and AML policy now to follow the local laws (to reduce the legal risks) of some countries.

However, it will be a mixer for sure if you see any new casinos with No-KYC rules advertising in Bitcointalk forum, (1) with the capability of processing large withdrawals, (2) without any wagering requirement.

[digaran]

Uncle Sam wins...Satoshi loses

This would be a great title for an article that I may write later, or I will leave it open source for anyone who wants to write it!!!

Nope, Satoshi is still strong, back in 2010 he felt alone when he saw the swarm of giant hornets coming his direction because Bitcoin was 1 year old, but now we can see theymos is dropping the sword after seeing a tiny little bee, so I'd say if Satoshi was here, we'd be popping open the bottles in the middle of the wall street by now.

Welcome to everyone to BSV
Stable. Compliant. Scalable. Shoveable. Scammable

I fixed it for you by adding the hidden features you forgot to add.

[suchmoon]

casino doesn't allow the user to deposit and withdraw their coin without wagering the deposit 'X' times (X= 1, 2, 3, ...,10, ...)

Bet 1% of your bankroll 300 times and at the end you'll have 3x rollover and your original deposit minus house edge, give or take some variance, not too different from mixing with variable fees/donations.

I hope this doesn't get me banned.

[Hamza2424]

14 years have passed, and we have not built anything truly decentralized

- No decentralized forum/community platform
- No truly decentralized exchange
- No truly decentralized mining pool
- No truly decentralized mixer

But belive me, there one entity truly decentralized from over 14 years and getting more decentralized day by day called Bitcoin which sufficient enough but the services cant be decentralized it has been proven time to time.

[mikeywith]

Keep in mind that this is not just about services that are called "xyzmixer" but also sites that are "not primarily a mixer but has a mixer function". This puts a lot of burden on the user having to know if some site they link to or mention might have a mixer function.

I am no lawyer, but I think that message is just to show compliance and to free theymos/the forum from any liabilities related to mentioning mixers here, but he clearly stated

It will continue to be OK to discuss mixers in a general sort of way. Just don't direct people to mixers: don't link to a mixer, don't link to a directory with links to mixers, don't tell people to "Google ASDFmixer", don't link to a mixer's telegram, etc.

Reading the "Google ASDFmixer" in contexts gives a clear comprehension of the intent, there is a huge difference between replying to someone who is asking "What mixer should I use" and then you reply with "Google ASDFmixer" and another post where people discuss, the risks of using mixers and you say something like " Bad things could happen, be careful, Google ASDFmixer", the former is an obvious violation, the latter is probably not.

[LoyceV]

I don't know a casino that's completely KYC free anymore. freebitco.in used to be one but they even get to them so, they will indeed ask for your papers when the gov wants it from them. Mixers on the other hand weren't doing any KYC for the obvious reasons.

Not only casinos, exchanges started the same way: some Bitcoin enthousiasts created something new, then it quickly grew over their head, and eventually they disappeared or matured. Bitcoin is growing up, and growing up comes with regulation.

and just like that crypto dies.

You can submit your post for the Bitcoin Obituaries

I guess that the FIOD have known that already longer what they will be doing , and dont know if that Account is legit or not.
So as long that there is not a notice on there official Website that this Account belongs to them i have my doubts.

Their number is on their website. You can ask them

What wins has the Bitcoin community had over the government?

Bitcoin still exists! That's the biggest win, and it's still growing in popularity. No government can stop it.

[franky1]

its not like i havnt been telling the mixer folk for months in their many topics, they need to think outside of the box about the way mixers function and brand themselves to not poke at regulations and business policy

[NotATether]

So that is your decentralized forum?  

Why don't you fuck off to Craig Wright's foxhole.

[digaran]

It would be more honorable to tell us, either STFU, or GTFO. No need to post a wall of sad excuses. This is not about getting paid or not getting paid, you are betraying us!
We do agree that we should not use or promote darknet mixers, but they are a BITCOIN service, if you are banning a Bitcoin service, then YOU are the ENEMY of Bitcoin. simple as that.

[mv1986]

Well, it is what it is. What strikes me as very odd is the severity of the ban. It sounds like we can't mention any mixer names even in casual/news/discussion context. Like if next year I wanted to say that some xyzmixer is sketchy AF and should be avoided, looks like I can be banned under the new rules.

I doubt it will be this much; warning about using x mixer isn't exactly the same as "pointing someone" to use it.

If saying "google xyz" is not allowed, I don't see how saying "xyz" in any context would be allowed, unless we think that everyone here is an idiot and wouldn't know you can google things if not specifically told to do so.

Like "hey I found this website xyz, is this legit", happens sometimes on this forum. If this is allowed, it's a loophole that will get abused.

Keep in mind that this is not just about services that are called "xyzmixer" but also sites that are "not primarily a mixer but has a mixer function". This puts a lot of burden on the user having to know if some site they link to or mention might have a mixer function.

This is really the biggest problem because the forum might turn into a place for those being good at acrobatics in legal rhetoric. If two people mean exactly the same and one can get banned and the other can't, aren't we going the wrong way then? Because I think this is what all of this will result in.

Do we get warnings before we get banned? Will everyone be treated the same? Who decides who gets banned for imprecise/dumb/unintended "illegal" wording? And what is even illegal wording because that is again the issue. It will all be about the wording.

For instance, I like to use swapspace.co. Now I have never checked whether they have the word "mixer" somewhere on their website. They don't ask for KYC and I have used it in the past because sometimes it is quick and simple and not too expensive to get some USDT (for example). They also offer BTC->XMR. You can use them to mix coins not in the form of BTC to BTC, but you could use two steps and go from BTC->USDT->BTC.

The worst thing would be that someone really unintentionally uses some wrong wording and finds themselves banned the next morning. I am also wondering whether someone with 5000 merit would be treated the same as someone with 500 merit.

If we go this way, we should have some transparent process and something like a jury because if this is nontransparent and an account can be nuked with one click because not every single word was thoroughly reconsidered five times before the message was sent, it would be really bad. There could be delicate topics and many slippery slope decisions along this way.

The thing is that someone asking for a good and reliable mixer is still not the same as someone asking for a reliable heroin source or for someone who sells automatic machine guns without questions asked. It would totally make sense to ask a community that knows what's going on in the mixing business where to find a reliable service with good experience and lower counterparty risk.

So is Reddit also going to announce free speech restrictions? maybe I don't know enough about Reddit, but they should have probably been taken down before Bitcointalk decides to restrict free speech. You can find all kinds of shit there.

[JeromeTash]

I guess a day is going to come when anything sanctioned or likely to be sanctioned by the Governments will be banned, and can't be mentioned in these forums, or you get banned.
Like "Binance, bisq or localcoinswap has been sanctioned by the US government for non-compliance, well nobody should post or link the above services, or they will be banned."

I didn't see this coming, but here we are.

[PureMixerio]

It sucks...

[Igebotz]

Hosting the forum on a US jurisdiction was a wrong move after all. Move the danm thing to NK where the government don't give a fuck!!

I do not think this is a wise idea, because later, theymos and those that are behind this forum will be the government target as they will be seen as the ones promoting mixers.

theymos has always been the focus since the forum was transferred to him. Since the forum does not directly gain from mixers or signature campaigns, why would the government shut it down when everything is done through a third party? Do you know what goes down on Reddit? Drugs, firearms, and other nonsense are traded on that forum, and it's still expanding.

theymos have already folded, which is a weakness; soon, they will come for casinos, and before you know it, the forum will be gone.

Bitcoin still exists! That's the biggest win, and it's still growing in popularity. No government can stop it.

Did you read what theymos wrote? "If Bitcoin is banned in the United States, I'm closing down the forum," I quote, "no danm shit about other countries and Bitcoin." His dear country is what matters to him. 

If the oldest Bitcoin forum is shut down what do you think would happen to Bitcoin adoption?

[mikeywith]

if you are banning a Bitcoin service, then YOU are the ENEMY of Bitcoin. simple as that.

You can criticize theymos as much as you want, but you should at least be fair.

The forum does not exist in a vacuum, it sits on a computer probably physically located in the U.S, owned by a U.S based company, the same thing goes for the domain, it's not truly owned by anyone as long as the government can seize it, it only takes a two-line letter for law enforcement and then you will be a welcomed with

This forum has been seized as part of coordinated law-enforment ... and you know the rest

So what do you expect? do you want him to risk the whole forum along with his freedom for BTC mixers advertisement? ya that would make him a hero but a stupid one, because the government would want any excuse they can use against the forum to take it down.

He probably gave them a bit more than they would have wanted "banning everything mixers" but he managed to run the forum for all these years, he probably knows some things that you and I don't, it's not easy to be his place, it's a place I sure wouldn't want to be at.

I understand the ambition and "fuck the police" kind of stuff, but this is the real world, you need to live -- to fight another day. When and if enough time has passed, and we as BTC community start engaging in real legislation, we would write the new laws accordingly, as it stands right now, the legislators are just old farts controlled by banks and large corporations, and we are just a minority that the majority of the world view as "Crazy group of nerds wasting their precious dollars on some imaginary internet coins", it's way too early to flex against governments, this is the sad reality that we need to live with.

[cryptofrka]

This will be a hot topic in the coming days.
Not that I'm trying to stir the pot, I'm just wondering - is it actually OK that in a forum of such size and significance we have authoritative leadership that simply makes a decision like this without any sort of consulting?

I can understand the sig campaigns ban - that was coming since CM went down. But even normally discussing mixers? That's a step too far. Most of them are yet to be proven fraudulent.
Free speech should be something we take for granted here - and decisions like these don't really bode well for the future of the forum.

[BlackHatCoiner]

I can understand the sig campaigns ban - that was coming since CM went down. But even discussing mixers?

I mean, that. Advertising illegal sites, or linking to darknet sites is reasonably forbidden, because the feds could use it as an excuse to shut it down. But, we are generally forbidden from even talking about it?

What's next? Banning me for saying "Pirate Bay", "Breached", "1337x"?

I understand that theymos wants the forum to be legally protected, and how is he going to show compliance without imposing such rules?

He can't, but I never understood one thing: why is this forum hosted in the draconian USA? It surprises me that mixers were allowed for so long already.

So what do you expect? do you want him to risk the whole forum along with his freedom for BTC mixers advertisement? ya that would make him a hero but a stupid one, because the government would want any excuse they can use against the forum to take it down.

Not only would this pose risk to the forum, but perhaps to us individually. If theymos believes there's a sensed chance to have 5% of the active users sanctioned, then we look after our butts, shall we?

[digaran]

Sad.... excuses

Stop making them, this is a coordinated attack on Bitcoin, theymos is compromised. Law enforcements wouldn't just shut down a forum because people talk about and promote mixers, they go after the mixers, they won't shut down Bitcoin network because criminals use Bitcoin, they go after criminals, oh wait, I just revealed their next plan. oops!

Next thing you know, pools, miners, exchanges, all will be equally compromised. But who cares, lets slowly cash out for now before the world realizes this fact.  oops, another plan revealed.

Lets live to become their little bitch for the rest of our lives.
Show us  a written law stating that the use of and mentioning the Bitcoin mixing services is illegal. Welcoming this idea is going to encourage them to send another bee to scare him into submission for the next ban on BITCOIN services.

I know, @theymos, if I'm unhappy, I should leave. Unless talking is also banned here, I rather stay.

[philipma1957]

I do believe in a right to privacy. But time and time again mixers were caught moving stolen coins.

So I will keep this signature till dec 31 because people do have rights to privacy.