Mixers to be banned

[Solosanz]

Someone drew a comparison between Silk Road I think and how someone was sentenced to life in prison, but come on. Nobody here is trading weapons, drugs, or contracting assassinations. Mixers are one of those things that some will use for good, and some will use it for evil.

I believe that casinos will be the next because everything else would make zero sense. Casinos can be launched with bad intent and relatively low funding, be operated with high risk, ran into the ground and then pull the rug. Advertise gambling with no KYC, and ultimately function like a mixing service.

This is not about trading weapons, drugs, etc, but this is about whether the government accept it or not.

The casino you mentioned where they don't ask KYC and has a mixer feature is considered a mixer. But most of big casinos have a mandatory KYC rule and they're comply with the regulations.

     b. If a site is not primarily a mixer but has a mixer function, such as a mixer function on a gambling website, then the whole site is considered a mixer.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against mixer and support about privacy. But if the house don't want to accept it, how can we, as an user can change his action?

Solutions if theymos is really ban mixer:
1. Migrating to other place.
2. Create your own forum.

theymos could still allow mixer in this forum, but with a consequence. He will work with the police or court to catch everyone who promote mixer.

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[Haunebu]

Crazy, unexpected decision. Totally understandable considering that the cons associated with mixers outweigh the pros. Sad to see many members getting their livelihood getting affected by this, but it is what it is.

The forum will keep moving forward as usual and mixer related discussions(mostly) will be a thing of the past.

[hugeblack]

I think it is not as important for the safety of theymos to BAN Mixers straight away as it is to rather promote a strong statement against the use of criminal funds with existing Mixers.  I imagine the Dutch Local Authorities would not be too happy to find out theymos has banned Mixers only to continue promoting Coin Joins but will instead be much happier if theymos made it clear every single time that Mixers are NOT to be used with illegal funds.

+1
I completely agree, the current wording of the ban is “fundamentally flawed”, but given what is called “existing mixing services” we find that they themselves are not true mixing services “dark web mixers” and have restrictions on conducting some transactions. It is true that this is wrong and a mixing service should not do this. But look at the conditions of use for these two blenders:

https://[banned mixer]/en/terms-and-conditions

You agree that You will not use the Services to perform any type of illegal activity of any sort or to take any action that adversely affects the performance of or the provision by the Service Provider of the Services. Furthermore, You agree that You will not use the Services on Bitcoin that is created, received or given in exchange for, or as a result of, any type of illegal activity. Use of the Services in a manner contrary to local law is generally prohibited.

The prohibition of this paragraph includes, but is not limited to, the following prohibited activities:

sales of narcotics, research chemicals or any controlled substances;
items that infringe or violate any intellectual property rights such as copyrights, trademarks, trade secrets, or patents;

https://[banned mixer]/en/pages/terms

User may never use the [banned mixer] if his activity related to:

Activity which would violate, or cause a violation of, economic or financial sanctions, trade embargoes, and restrictions imposed, administered or enforced from time to time by governmental authorities, including, without limitation, the U.S. Department of the Treasury’s Office of Foreign Assets Control, the U.S. Department of State, the U.S. Department of Commerce, and any other governmental authorities with jurisdiction over you (collectively, “Sanctions”); and activity which would violate, or assist in violation of, laws, statutes, ordinances, or regulations regarding the publishing, distribution or dissemination of any unlawful material or information.
Drugs, and tools specifically intended for the production of drugs, Drug paraphernalia Illegal Drugs, substances designed to mimic illegal drugs, and/or other psycho active products (e.g.,K2, salvia divinorum, nitrate inhalers, bath salts, synthetic cannabis, herbal smoking blends, herbal incense, and HCG/HGH-like substances)

So even the providers of these services cooperate with the authorities and payments may not be processed if they are on the OFAC list, yet they are mixing services.

Frankly, I was hoping that several proposals would be put forward and voted on. In the end, it is a community-run forum and not controlled by a single individual, and I do not think that anyone will help in promoting illegal services.

[fruktik]

theymos could still allow mixer in this forum, but with a consequence. He will work with the police or court to catch everyone who promote mixer.

If forum users are wanted for advertising the mixer, then the financial regulator from the states has completely blown the roof off its hinges. And where, then, is the freedom of choice that is so boasted in America?
Well, everyone uses these services for illegal purposes. Where is the logic here? Where did she go? Has the system really degraded so much that we are seeing all this in real life? What kind of chaos is this, actually?
Are all those who use the services or have at least some indirect connection to these sites already a criminal? Are people in power out of their minds? Isn't it time for them to undergo a psychiatric examination to determine their sanity?

Frankly, I was hoping that several proposals would be put forward and voted on. In the end, it is a community-run forum and not controlled by a single individual, and I do not think that anyone will help in promoting illegal services.

Exactly, I guarantee 100% that before the creation of not only mixers, but also Bitcoin, no one had ever bought prohibited substances, weapons, carried out terrorist activities, or the like. Everyone lived in peace and complete harmony. But for some reason the government decided to get to the bottom of some sites that provide crypto mixing services. Or maybe it would be better for them to do something really real and not waste money on such proceedings? Do taxpayers know about all this? What is their money used for, what absurdity?

Thanks for reminding me I had a gambling thread lying somewhere, but I wasn't been able to get any addicts into it last time so let's try again proselytize a few into horse races gambling, after all, it's just newbies losing their money, a prefect legit business.
But is this forum hosted in Georgia or Delaware, just to know before I get myself banned ?!  

You're right. In this case, all casinos and lotteries controlled by the government should be banned. And what? Are they weak? Or is the thirst for money much greater than rationality? That's what I'm talking about. What happened to America? Where is she headed? Toward dictatorship and totalitarianism? A little more and it will become a reality.

-------------

If we think logically from the regulator's point of view. Let me give you an example. There is some gathering of people. It doesn't matter on what issue. 100 people came. Among them are: maniac, pedophile, terrorist, drug addict, serial killer and hacker. All other law-abiding citizens do not even know that there are such characters among them. Therefore, everyone at this meeting should be punished, because they, by the same logic, are also criminals. Is everything clear to everyone? Well, what will we come to in this case?
-------------

A few years ago there were no mixers, but criminal acts were still committed. Now, I suppose, I have become too lazy to lift my ass from the chair.

But what about those people who live in a totalitarian state under a strict dictatorship and want to send donations to opposition bloggers? With such a decision you destroy not only the will of people for change and freedom, but also the personality as a whole. Threat of physical destruction if the government finds out about the sponsorship of such opposition people. All hope for any positive changes disappears. Good fucking democracy.

[jokers10]

So even the providers of these services cooperate with the authorities and payments may not be processed if they are on the OFAC list, yet they are mixing services.

Yeap, I guess that probably that was mentioned in FIOD article under the point about KYT policy:

In the case of Sinbad.io, more than 50 percent of all mixed cryptocurrencies were found to have a criminal origin. In the case of Sinbad. io, there are no measures in place to implement and enforce a Know Your Customer (KYC) or Know Your Transaction (KYT) policy.

Of course we don't support criminal activity in Bitcoin or crypto, but according to the Chainalysis data just 0.12-0.24% of Bitcoin transactions is probably related with crime; and as for Bitcoin mixing, then more than 90% mixing is made by law-abiding people. So if mixers don't let to use their service for those who stole money by hacking different projects etc, most of mixer users will even not find that out ever.

[joker_josue]

Here is the idea if someone wants to dictate their own rules on this forum, what if someone advertises mixers on porn sites which are available on this forum?  Since mixers are not illegal, what if mixers try to put their ads on everything crypto related? Then we can never link to any source. this is a self crippling tactic @theymos. Even though we all agree it could be good for community to do this, but I guess you rushed it, didn't think this through.
Edit :
Maybe you might wanna think about vanity addresses with the names of mixers, ban them as well? You realize there are so many ways to mess with Bitcoin if a Bitcoin service is banned?

There are no restrictions on websites that advertise mixers, because it is practically impossible to control this.
What is not authorized will be promoting sites that are camouflaged mixers.

Imagine that a ChipNews (formerly ChipMix) appeared now, with news about crypto, and there was a mixing option, which did not take to any third party website, and the person could mix directly on ChipMixNews? This is a camouflaged mixing site.

[mindrust]

C'mon guys. Why the grim faces? It is not the end of the world. There is a world outside this forum too.

You can still flip burgers. It is not that bad.



Cheer up 

[ABCbits]

On bright hide, i hope mixer will make new innovation where they offer non-custodial privacy-enchanting service. Or maybe they should switch business where they fork Wasabi Wallet and run their own WabiSabi coordinator without any blacklist.

Spot on! Talk about killing two birds with one stone.

Why stop at Wasabi though? A Whirlpool coordinator would also be cool, assuming such a thing can be extensible.

I mentioned that since AFAIK only Wasabi Wallet support WabiSabi coordinator. As for Whirlpool, user have choice between Samourai and Sparrow wallet. Although in practice, running either would be nice.

[KTChampions]

C'mon guys. Why the grim faces? It is not the end of the world. There is a world outside this forum too.

You can still flip burgers. It is not that bad.



Cheer up 

If the cryptans are so stupid that they don’t see the difference between “catch/punish criminals” and “deprive all people of their rights to avoid potential crimes,” then this is a completely fair outcome.
And by the way, the money received for flipping hamburgers can only be spent with permission from officials, so as not to increase the carbon footprint or anything else. But this is not slavery, this is all for your good!  

[JohanM]

And what about something liker a Trezor hardware wallet? They now have a built-in service called "coinjoin" which in my view is nothing else but a mixer. So will anything about Trezor also be banned

[cryptosize]

Are you willing to do that publicly? Judging by your username, and judging by what I've read about you, you value your privacy. I don't think Bitcointalk's Admin isn't as anonymous as you are, which means there can be real-life consequences.

I do agree there can be real life consequences.  This is why I am thinking of a different approach.  I think censoring from the start is drawing a very thin line and makes the future even more uncertain for Bitcoin Talk,

A better route would have been maybe requiring Mixers to advertise on Bitcoin Talk only if the links direct you first to a page where you are shown some sort of warning about using the Service for criminal purposes.  Or requiring such warning to be included in the Signature Campaign.  Some body who WANTS to use a Mixer will look for it anyway, whether the link is available on Bitcoin Talk directly or not.  After all, you can not oblige some body to not break the law.  But you can show a preventive warning.

I think it is not as important for the safety of theymos to BAN Mixers straight away as it is to rather promote a strong statement against the use of criminal funds with existing Mixers.  I imagine the Dutch Local Authorities would not be too happy to find out theymos has banned Mixers only to continue promoting Coin Joins but will instead be much happier if theymos made it clear every single time that Mixers are NOT to be used with illegal funds.

Otherwise it sets a dangerous precedent.

I think of it like smoking ads.  You are being told cigarettes can destroy your health.  Now you know the risk and continuing to do so will only decline your health.  Even at a first glance, it would make Bitcoin Talk much less suspicious to Authorities than the version we have today.  Then the possible consequences are much lower for theymos too.  What can they do to some body who has explicitly publicly stood against the criminal use of Mixers?  Now compare that to what they can do to some body who banned Mixers only to continue supporting the one thing they hate the MOST.  Coin Joins and Monero.  They would have a much better case to form that way.

I guess.

Coin Join / Monero is not the way to go here.

My opinion is don't do Coin Join / Monero

State they are not allowed on the forum 2024.

Leave hiding shit alone.

Wait til the 2024 election. Maybe Next  President admin alters rules.

Pot was illegal in most USA states now lots of states make it legal.

So maybe by Feb 2025 mixers are not so bad.

Well, let's just say many people on this forum hate Trump with a passion (despite Biden being 1000 times worse than Trump's presidency)...

C'mon guys. Why the grim faces? It is not the end of the world. There is a world outside this forum too.

You can still flip burgers. It is not that bad.



Cheer up 

Some people don't like working (neither cooking), but they do like food delivery from McDonalds and other sources.

That's why they need their mixer income...

And by the way, the money received for flipping hamburgers can only be spent with permission from officials, so as not to increase the carbon footprint or anything else. But this is not slavery, this is all for your good!  

They will flip eco-friendly burgers made from bugs/insects/worms. (yet another "conspiracy theory" according to some folks on this forum)

[nelson4lov]

And what about something liker a Trezor hardware wallet? They now have a built-in service called "coinjoin" which in my view is nothing else but a mixer. So will anything about Trezor also be banned

Here's your answer:

... Examples of things that are not banned mixers include exchangers (unless they have a mixing function), CoinJoin-supporting non-custodial wallets, and Monero.

So unless Trezor explicitly markets it as a mixing service, that's when it is no longer allowed. Otherwise, it's good to go.

More and more things are getting censor in the forum as long as government dislikes them. This means sometime in the near future, the number of things we can freely talk about and link to will be tiny.

[garlonicon]

I wonder, how Lightning Network is classified. Is it a mixer or not? Because:
1. You can open a channel (a decentralized equivalent of putting coins into some mixer).
2. You can send your coins inside LN (this is where "mixing" phase can happen).
3. You can close a channel, or even get your coins back, without closing your channel (because of swaps, and you can end up with different on-chain coins than you started with).
And then, the question is: if you have some LN wallet, that allows you to get your on-chain coins, without closing your channel, and that is the default behavior of this wallet (for example Phoenix wallet did that), then is it a mixer or not?

[cryptosize]

I wonder, how Lightning Network is classified. Is it a mixer or not? Because:
1. You can open a channel (a decentralized equivalent of putting coins into some mixer).
2. You can send your coins inside LN (this is where "mixing" phase can happen).
3. You can close a channel, or even get your coins back, without closing your channel (because of swaps, and you can end up with different on-chain coins than you started with).
And then, the question is: if you have some LN wallet, that allows you to get your on-chain coins, without closing your channel, and that is the default behavior of this wallet (for example Phoenix wallet did that), then is it a mixer or not?

It probably is:

[digaran]

Now, this is what I'm talking about, the perfect opportunity to introduce LN to the world. Now ban this if you can.😅

Edit: @gmaxwell , we need your opinion officially on this matter please. We are about to cripple everything Bitcoin related.

[garlonicon]

Also, there are more things that can be related to "mixing". One of them is called "Silent Payments". Another thing is called cut-through. Because it is possible to send Alice->Bob->Charlie as two on-chain transactions, and have a service, that will batch it, and put Alice->Charlie into the final block. Is it called mixing or not?

It meets the definition, because:

1a. It is advertized as something that can improve your privacy.

1b. It has a mixer function by definition, because the real address is always a mix of what both users provided: the recipient, and the sender. And in case of cut-through, some data from the middle can be removed, or placed as a commitment, by tweaking R-value of a signature.

1c. I wonder if unconfirmed on-chain transaction can be considered a "possibly-transferrable IOU", if it is created in a way, that allows being joined with other transactions, without modifying signatures. For example, is SIGHASH_SINGLE|SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY considered a "possibly-transferrable IOU"? Because the final transaction can be different than sent by the user in this case.

1d. The transaction can be written with Homomorphic Encryption. Which means, even if it is P2P-based mixing, it is still mixing, right?

2. In case of Lightning Network, it is possible to broadcast the old state of the channel, so yes, "it is possible for the mixer to steal property
passing through it". Even though it may be hard, it is still possible, because you have no guarantee, that the attacker is not a mining pool. And it is not that kind of a bug, which can be "fixed", because you need a pair of unidirectional channels, to prevent stealing (and people won't do that, because that would cause more on-chain transactions, than if one channel can transfer coins in both directions). Which means, even if it will be fixed, it will not be "just a quick fix".

3. No KYC is collected in Lightning Network, Silent Payments or cut-through. This requirement is weird, because that means if it would be collected, it could be allowed. But what if we have Alice->Bob->Charlie, and Bob passed through KYC, but the final on-chain transaction is just Alice->Charlie?

About not banned things: yes, Lightning Network can be treated as an exchange, but it has a mixing function, so is it allowed, or not?

[ABCbits]

I wonder, how Lightning Network is classified. Is it a mixer or not? Because:
1. You can open a channel (a decentralized equivalent of putting coins into some mixer).
2. You can send your coins inside LN (this is where "mixing" phase can happen).
3. You can close a channel, or even get your coins back, without closing your channel (because of swaps, and you can end up with different on-chain coins than you started with).
And then, the question is: if you have some LN wallet, that allows you to get your on-chain coins, without closing your channel, and that is the default behavior of this wallet (for example Phoenix wallet did that), then is it a mixer or not?

I would say no for these reasons,
1. LN usually mentioned as solution towards scaling or microtransaction.
2. LN is non-custodial, unless you use custodial service.
3. LN doesn't offer that much privacy unless you believe other party doesn't keep log and LN software you use have additional privacy feature (e.g. use Tor by default).
3. IIRC by default some statistic of LN channel shown on website such as https://1ml.com/.

[garlonicon]

Another example: is advertizing Full-RBF allowed or not? Because guess what: you can have a service, that will allow batching mempool transactions, just by using Full-RBF and nothing else. What then? If you have a lot of on-chain transactions, paying below one satoshi per virtual byte, and you will have a full node, that will batch all of that, and broadcast a single batched transaction with the minimal fee (because it will take less on-chain space, so feerate will pass the minimal allowed value), is it considered "mixing" or not?

[NotATether]

Also, there are more things that can be related to "mixing". One of them is called "Silent Payments". Another thing is called cut-through. Because it is possible to send Alice->Bob->Charlie as two on-chain transactions, and have a service, that will batch it, and put Alice->Charlie into the final block. Is it called mixing or not?

No because Silent Payments are not seized by the Feds. Mixers are centralized websites which do get seized. Theymos is banning mixers because they keep getting targeted by law enforcement, not because they are used for criminal activity (otherwise all scammers and Ponzi schemes would've been banned from here a long time ago).

same with full-rbf.

[Lucius]

~snip~
USA will have their elections in 2024 so a year from now we may have a different leader and go in a different direction.
It is annoying but we can survive it.

People change in your country, but the fact is that politics remains the same - so I don't see anything changing when it comes to Bitcoin and mixers. Right now you have a president who invites dead people to join him on stage and shakes hands with the air, and you can choose between him or the one who attempted a coup in his term. I don't see an opportunity for any changes, only for more new chaos, whichever of the two becomes president again.