Mixers to be banned

[Porfirii]

I doubt the member you know that earned $1200 per month was a sole case by being on a customised deal. If I recall correctly, for a short period at one stage all the Chipmixer participants were getting paid more than $1200 per month because the price of Bitcoin was high enough to take them over $300 per week.

I know someone who earned $1200 per month from ChipMixer.

We are going meta at this point, but it's a little incorrect - It was max 0.0375BTC per week until some time in 2021, and then up to $300 per week after that.

So in any case, it was quite a number of people, not just one.

If I'm not wrong, those 0.0375BTC meant over 3k USD a month at the time CM decided to fix it to the dollar. mv1986 is right, so apply it to 3k: it is a high salary in most countries, very high in mine, and unconceivable in regimes like Cuban. The perfect complement for many, and perhaps a lifesaver for some. The best posters were there, so it's not so surprising.

There’s already some campaign like from @icopress that doesn’t have minimum post requirements to get payment. Campaigns is now adjusting to employ quality poster like you in the forum by removing the hassle of meeting post quota.

Livecasino signature campaign, managed by the Cro2 team, doesn't have a minimum quota either. They are very critical with the quality, instead, which is perfect to avoid spam.

[1714552418]

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[1714552418]

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[AbuBhakar]

Now that you are saying that, I am pretty sure that I was getting my months and weeks mixed up... so I was thinking $300 per month and it was probably something closer to $300 per week.. so yeah, my own memory was down playing the payment amounts... and therefore shows why so many members are inclined towards wearing signatures, and I did have a couple of years of wearing signatures, but after a while, I just was finding it to be too much of a hassle.

There’s already some campaign like from @icopress that doesn’t have minimum post requirements to get payment. Campaigns is now adjusting to employ quality poster like you in the forum by removing the hassle of meeting post quota.

You mean @JayJuanGee? You might want to rethink, he won't he was just making a point.

Someone who was not tempted to join any campaign when the m!xers are active with a big money, I don't believe he can be interested this time. Is it for the money? I believe that someone like him should go for a special package among the campaigns if at all he wants to earn from campaigns. He might talk to any of the CMs and I believe a good deal would be achieved since he has all it takes.

But I don't think JayJuanGee is ready for that and his activity on the forum during the thick and thin times is highly commendable.

I’m not trying to convince him to join on a campaign. I’m just trying to share that signature campaign now is already evolving to make natural quality poster attracted to join due to relax rule of no post quota which he just use to make a point on his post.

I follow JJG for a long time and I saw him joined signature campaign before when I’m still newbie here in forum last 2016.

[PrivacyG]

I zoned out for a while and now have a lot of pages of unread messages.  I wonder if this kind of website would be considered a Mixer.  It might fit 1c from the modified OP but maybe it does not.  I do not understand 100 percent.

What if a Service pops up.  They take your Bitcoin and send you a Monero Private Key.  It looks like an Exchange but it is not.  They never call themselves a 'Mixer' nor do they seem like one at first glance.  The functionality is exactly like Chip Mixer but the Currency you receive in the end is not Bitcoin but Monero instead.

But the Service has two sides.  The first side of the website where they take Bitcoin and give you Monero.  Then there is another page where they take Monero and give you Bitcoin.  When you enter their website there is a clickable link for Privacy Enhancement where they provide tips for who wants to use their rights to Privacy.  They do not advertise themselves as Mixer or Privacy Enhancement tool but they advise to swap between Bitcoin and Monero regularly to keep up with their Privacy.

Is this considered a Mixer or does it avoid the definition and implicitly the ban?

[digaran]

If all of what you said happens on the same site, it is a mixer, unless they have 2 sites with different names, one changing BTC for Monero, the other changing your Monero for Bitcoin. You see? There are many ways to bypass bans, I have been saying this for years, banning things is not the solution.

[d5000]

It looks like an Exchange but it is not.

For me, that's clearly an exchange. If you get a private key, then you have got coins - that means, you just have exchanged Bitcoin to Monero. These coins are now under your control. While in the exchange process, the exchanger could have stolen your coins, it was clearly an exchange process.

From my point of view, it would be only a mixer if the website presents itself as if the point of the operation was to return to Bitcoin later. For example, if on the landing page you see the heading "Step 1: Exchange to Monero", and then a button is displayed leading you to a "Step 2: Exchange back to Bitcoin". That would be perhaps the kind of service that theymos described in rule 1d.

I'm not even sure about that, because in theymos' rules there is the following interesting word:

d. If the site internally converts your deposit into other things as part of its mixing

Thus, if you get Monero coins in the process and have control over them, that can't be described as "internally". You are the one who takes the decision to exchange them back.

What you write here:

When you enter their website there is a clickable link for Privacy Enhancement where they provide tips for who wants to use their rights to Privacy.  They do not advertise themselves as Mixer or Privacy Enhancement tool but they advise to swap between Bitcoin and Monero regularly to keep up with their Privacy.

... in my opinion isn't enough for the service to be considered a mixer, or directing you to use it as a mixer, because it's simply common sense and you could read it as an advice in every Bitcoin blog or forum. The point of the website model you describe, is still to exchange one coin to another.

In other words, if the described service was a mixer, probably all non-KYC exchanges would be mixers - and theymos' rules clarify clearly that exchangers are not mixers.

[philipma1957]

I doubt the member you know that earned $1200 per month was a sole case by being on a customised deal. If I recall correctly, for a short period at one stage all the Chipmixer participants were getting paid more than $1200 per month because the price of Bitcoin was high enough to take them over $300 per week.

I know someone who earned $1200 per month from ChipMixer.

You recall correctly! But it wasn't because the Bitcoin price was high enough, it was guaranteed over $300 per week if someone made the allowed 50 posts to be paid as it was a flat rate for every participant of $6 per post. Depending on the month, it was ~ $1300-1350 per week month. In many places of the world, an account in that signature campaign would get them above average income per month.

Yep thats why this thread is so long. I have no Idea of the exact amounts given away by all the mixer signatures on bitcoinalk. But there were hundreds of people doing the signatures. So say 500 x 150 =

75000 a week . I am sure that is lower but its is a loss form a lot of people .

[digaran]

I just realized mixer threads are not bumped to the top of the list when you post in there, which is a good thing, wish we had that feature on all altcoin boards, and other ponzi/scam boards, then unsuspected souls would also be saved from them.😉

[BitcoinGirl.Club]

All members who advertised mixers will be banned from Jan 1, 2024.

Why is no one worried about it 😂

[garlonicon]

Why is no one worried about it 😂

You do not need to go edit/delete your past posts. Links will be automatically wordfiltered-out as of Jan 1, and nobody should be banned for old mixer-related posts. You should remove any mixer signatures/avatars/etc. soon after Jan 1, though.

Which means, there is no need to worry. Some people will just clear their signatures, or replace them with something else. It is not a big deal, some campaign managers already switched to the new signatures, which will be allowed. And users will also do that soon.

[BitcoinGirl.Club]

Now we are talking about it. 😉

[LoyceV]

What if a Service pops up.  They take your Bitcoin and send you a Monero Private Key.  It looks like an Exchange but it is not.  They never call themselves a 'Mixer' nor do they seem like one at first glance.  The functionality is exactly like Chip Mixer but the Currency you receive in the end is not Bitcoin but Monero instead.

Why give users a private key, instead of sending Monero to an address? It sounds like an exchange with increased risk.

[garlonicon]

It sounds like an exchange with increased risk.

Because centralized mixers are just "like an exchange with increased risk". They collect funds first (equivalent to "deposit" on exchanges), and then you have an option to "withdraw" them. But yes, some services, for example ChipMixer, simply give users some private key.

Why give users a private key, instead of sending Monero to an address?

https://web.archive.org/web/20210826060722/https://chipmixer.com/faq

Do you know withdrawn private key?

Sadly, yes, we have created them and as long as two people knows private key, either of them can move funds. When you withdraw a chip, you receive a copy of private key encrypted on the mixer's server. You are free to sweep it yourself, ask us to send it to your address or keep it on chip for a while. Only the last option keeps your funds vunerable to our dishonesty, but it also extends your privacy. If you sweep funds from chip in first 12h after your input, you receive same privacy as you would get from standard mixer. If you trust us (as you already did when you sent coins into mixer) and spend chip when you need it, then you achive maximum privacy you can get.

And yes, they are partially right. Partially, because it is possible to create a transaction, that will be flexible, for example signed with SIGHASH_SINGLE|SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY. But then, anyone in the network can tamper with that, not only the receiver of those coins. Also, they could use Homomorphic Encryption, and allow the user to change the transaction in this way, but it is hard.

Another option is to allow the user to construct the withdrawal transaction, and just sign the coins from the mixer. And then, if that kind of transaction would be known upfront, then it could be trustless (but then, it is possible to attack the mixer, and find out, which coins they own, by attempting many unsuccessful queries).

[LoyceV]

simply give users some private key.

With Bitcoin, there's a argument to do so. But PrivacyG was talking about Monero, where it doesn't make sense to give a private key instead of making a transaction.

[philipma1957]

What if a Service pops up.  They take your Bitcoin and send you a Monero Private Key.  It looks like an Exchange but it is not.  They never call themselves a 'Mixer' nor do they seem like one at first glance.  The functionality is exactly like Chip Mixer but the Currency you receive in the end is not Bitcoin but Monero instead.

Why give users a private key, instead of sending Monero to an address? It sounds like an exchange with increased risk.

My guess is he thinks his method is not a mixer.

Your idea would be a mixer.


ie he thinks he has a workaround.

[Little Mouse]

But the Service has two sides.  The first side of the website where they take Bitcoin and give you Monero.  Then there is another page where they take Monero and give you Bitcoin.  When you enter their website there is a clickable link for Privacy Enhancement where they provide tips for who wants to use their rights to Privacy.  They do not advertise themselves as Mixer or Privacy Enhancement tool but they advise to swap between Bitcoin and Monero regularly to keep up with their Privacy.

Didn't theymos cover this? I think he was pointing out this with the below quoted part.

    c. If the site takes coins, gives you a possibly-transferrable IOU, and will convert this IOU back into mixed coins much later, then the temporary conversion into a different type of property does not prevent it from being considered a mixer.

wish we had that feature on all altcoin boards, and other ponzi/scam boards, then unsuspected souls would also be saved from them.😉

Altcoin Announcement has the same feature.

[theymos]

Note that the timeline will be something like this:
 - Sometime on Jan 1 (at an arbitrary time, not midnight), the wordfilters will be put into place, the announcement threads will be locked, and mixer-run accounts will be put into PM-only-mode. If any threads/accounts are missed after all of the other ones are affected, please report them. If new wordfilters should be added, please post in a topic in Meta about it.
 - Sig-campaign (etc.) threads which appear not to be soliciting new promotion might not need to be locked at all, and wrap-up-related posts can still happen there. We don't plan on going through all of the sig-campaign threads and locking them all. But if they're continuing to generate promotion, they will be locked.
 - Mixer sigs will be affected by the wordfilter on Jan 1. After a few days (ie. not immediately on Jan 1), signatures containing any of the wordfiltered URLs will be blanked. I haven't decided yet whether I'll remove old mixer avatars: if I do, it won't be for at least a few weeks after Jan 1. (New mixer avatars definitely aren't allowed.)

Generally, please only report new stuff: not old posts, remnant signatures, posts related to merely wrapping up a campaign, etc. And remember that merely talking about mixers is not banned.

What about a service like [banned mixer]?

Jambler is not itself a mixer, so it'll be allowed. (It's pretty borderline, though, so I might later reevaluate whether it's exploiting a loophole which should be closed.)

What if a Service pops up.  They take your Bitcoin and send you a Monero Private Key.  It looks like an Exchange but it is not.  They never call themselves a 'Mixer' nor do they seem like one at first glance.  The functionality is exactly like Chip Mixer but the Currency you receive in the end is not Bitcoin but Monero instead.

That sounds to me like a mixer using Monero as part of an internal mixing system, but it's difficult to say with just a hypothetical.

[Igebotz]

I haven't decided yet whether I'll remove mixer avatars: if I do, it won't be for at least a few weeks after Jan 1.

Does this imply that mixer avatars have not yet been banned? And it could be worn after January 1st.

[suzanne5223]

I haven't decided yet whether I'll remove mixer avatars: if I do, it won't be for at least a few weeks after Jan 1.

Does this imply that mixer avatars have not yet been banned? And it could be worn after January 1st.

Yes, since Theymos hasn't decided yet about the removal of the mixer avatar. However, things may change weeks later.

[theymos]

Does this imply that mixer avatars have not yet been banned? And it could be worn after January 1st.

No. They're definitely not allowed after Jan 1. But I might not bother to remove old ones.

[digaran]

With your permission I will be exploring all possible loopholes to bypass the ban, publicly, in order to find exploits and eliminate them.