Mixers to be banned

[Little Mouse]

No, I don't think it's that anonymous and I don't think people will blame that other campaign manager. If I had to bet on someone I would bet on my current campaign manager Little Mouse, as it is widely known that Royse777 and him are friends, and when Royse777 talks about "the" other campaign manager I think it is clear who he is talking about..

Don't make a wild guess, specially when it can create a chaos. I don't care what theymos is allowing here or not (I'll just follow the rules). It's theymos's forum and icopress's business, none of my business. That's how I think.
I never had a discussion about Jambler with Royse. We discussed about strategies to get sig campaigns. I asked for same kind of suggestion from yahoo62278, Hhampuz and julerz.

But I doubt that many people will blame him, since at least in public he keeps away from any controversy. I don't remember him intervening when I had big arguments with Royse777 neither in icopress or Gazeta vs Royse, or in other controversies

I dont like controversy. Besides, I have worked with both Royse and Gazeta. It was a nice experience. Regardless of my trades with Royse and Gazeta, we talked a lot about lots of other things but no dirty forum discussion.

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[The Sceptical Chymist]

I remember years ago there was an EU project to require every user to identify themselves to access online social networks that could include forums, and theymos said something like that he was not going to pay any attention if a "Bolshevik" EU requirement came for that. In view of what's happened recently, I am not so sure what he would do now if such a requirement came, especially from the USA.

This forum is hosted in the US if I'm not mistaken, and at the time of Theymos's first statement that you referenced he hadn't yet been challenged/intimidated/whatever by any government as of yet.  But you only really know how one is going to react in a stressful situation once that situation happens.  Before that, it's all talk.

Plus I don't think Theymos would have to abide by anything the EU decreed.  Not that Europe and the US don't cooperate, but whatever.  This whole situation is just frustrating.

[PowerGlove]

Sort of makes you wonder if the rest of the stuff I say that people immediately try to dismiss is worth taking a closer look at...

Dude. That helping-yourself-to-airdrops thing stunk up your reputation bad. You went behind theymos' back and used the coins that you were entrusted with for personal gain; I'm not talking about the minor forkcoins you were gifted, I'm talking about the airdrops that you somehow concluded you were personally entitled to. If at any point you said something along the lines of: "You know what? That was actually wrong of me, and I'm sorry that I did that.", then, I think more people would take you seriously. (If you have already apologized, and I missed that, then please accept my apology for still giving you shit about it, but all I've ever read about it from you has been the insistence that you did nothing wrong.)


On-topic: In the context of the existing mixer ban, I think theymos made the right call here. Technically, Jambler is doing the mixing, not the partner site(s). If you read their FAQ, /faq.php#faq-2.6]2.6 states (emphasis mine): "[banned mixer] conducts and provides all financial transactions, for this reason a letter of guarantee is issued by the platform itself."; the fact that their model makes you interact with their backend through a third party, doesn't really change anything. I mean, it's a bummer, and I hate this the-cypherpunks-won-the-battle-but-lost-the-war road that Bitcointalk seems to be heading down, but, yeah, it is what it is... (It's not like theymos can thumb his nose at the regulators and the ongoing crackdown on privacy; decisions made long ago mean that Bitcointalk's whole technical and legal setup is too fragile to withstand a conflict of that nature.)

[philipma1957]

you need to look at it in terms of US Law. Bitcointalk and theymos is subject to US Law.  


Jambler aids and abets a mixer = fact

if bitcointalk aids and abets Jambler they could be charged with US federal law violations.

Best case I can explain it with is this article

 https://www.hrw.org/report/2013/12/05/offer-you-cant-refuse/how-us-federal-prosecutors-force-drug-defendants-plead


it is about federal crimes mostly drugs ,but read the techniques the government used against people.

Theymos does not want any part of this.

I can't say that I blame him in the least.

@logfiles (good name) yep we are living in 1984 pretty much.


What I like is :
all audio
all images
all video
can be Ai'd should be considered Ai'd and not 'real'

A great way to live is it not.

Matrix coming up soon.

The forum is a breeding ground for fake yuaunty meme coins and everything that steals money from people. You should know this, but the jambler thread was created in 2019 and their business is successful and there seem to be no complaints.

the law in question for the usa went into effect Jan 1st this year.

it is federal law and is a felony to receive 10000 usd worth of any crypto without reporting full kyc to the feds.

So any usa person using a mixer and receiving $10,000 usd worth of coin would need full disclosure from the sender of the coin.

It is very likely why bitcointalk is not advertising mixers.

I ended my mining in clifton due to the new laws. we earned 19000 four way spilt in Dec 2023.

under new 2024 laws I would have been subject to  much stricter reporting laws. thus the mining ending.

I certainly would think not every mixer will give its kyc to the receiver of the mixed coins thus Theymos decided it is in the best interest of bitcointalk to not promote mixers.

to further explain the problem. oh 10000 rule for one tranaction.  I will do 2500+2500+2500+2500

that would quadruple the law breaker as they will say you did four moves in 4 days to avoid the 10,000 rule


https://www.anaford.com/articles/new-crypto-reporting

the law was passed in 2021 but is getting inforced  starting Jan 1 2024.

Even worse the exact reporting procedure is yet to be released by the IRS.


Ie what is a legit amount that repeats and adds to beyond 10,000 but is not reported.

Ie 1200 a month for 10 months is 12 grand but really spread out. very likely okay.

1200 a day for 10 days is 12 grand but not spread out very likely not okay.

So You used jambler over and over maybe always under 1000 but a lot when did you start breaking the 10000 rule. Right now no one knows. Maybe they do full guidelines and the issue ends.

[Poker Player]

Don't make a wild guess, specially when it can create a chaos.

Well, I think it's not bad to have clarified it, as I'm sure I wasn't the only one who was thinking of you.

Plus I don't think Theymos would have to abide by anything the EU decreed.  Not that Europe and the US don't cooperate, but whatever.  This whole situation is just frustrating.

I do believe that he would have to abide. When you offer services to the people of a country you have to abide by the laws of that country even if you are not headquartered there.

[FinneysTrueVision]

Wasabi wallet performs blockchain analysis, that's why I asked this question but Jumbler doesn't performs that.

Both perform blockchain analysis. The difference is that Wasabi performs and funds blockchain analysis for "the sake of the children", whereas Jambler does it to ensure the investors won't cheat and earn from their investments.

The mental gymnastics to try and differentiate Jambler and Wasabi’s use of blockchain analysis and blacklisting is unnecessary. Jambler isn’t acting in a morally superior way, it’s always been about trying to cover their ass from regulators. You admitted this already.

It's very likely that they're having strict terms to avoid sanctioning as they are considered money transmitting service.

The only real difference between them is that with custodial mixers your coins can be stolen, your activity may be logged, and the mixer can link your post-mix outputs to your prior history.

[Little Mouse]

Well, I think it's not bad to have clarified it, as I'm sure I wasn't the only one who was thinking of you.

Clarification of what? Which doesn't exist?


Right now, options for getting a client as sig camp manager is limited to casino mostly. If mixer wasn't banned, we would have one more industry as a campaign manager. If Jambler was classified as allowed, we would have one more industry and it would potentially bring us clients (be it me, icopress, Royse, yahoo or Hhampuz or any other campaign manager).

[LoyceV]

I remember years ago there was an EU project to require every user to identify themselves to access online social networks that could include forums, and theymos said something like that he was not going to pay any attention if a "Bolshevik" EU requirement came for that.

You mean this statement: I intend to ignore all stupidity coming out of the EUSSR?

In view of what's happened recently, I am not so sure what he would do now if such a requirement came, especially from the USA.

You can't really expect theymos to break the law. This comes to mind:

Maybe Bitcoin will be banned in the US someday, and then I'll have to either shut down bitcointalk.org or find a way of moving it to some remaining territory of freedom in the world. That's the problem with centralized forums. I wish that more work was being done on creating decentralized, uncensorable, but also usable forums. I would love nothing more than to be able to shut down bitcointalk.org due to some decentralized solution making it obsolete. Find me a 501(c)(3) nonprofit working on this, and I'll donate to it.

it is federal law and is a felony to receive 10000 usd worth of any crypto without reporting full kyc to the feds.

That sounds like an impossible law to follow. You have a Bitcoin address in your profile. Anyone can send you $15000, and you'll have no way to find out who it was. Then what? It's the digital equivalent of throwing a pile of money in the mailbox of a random house.

[examplens]

You can't really expect theymos to break the law. This comes to mind:

Maybe Bitcoin will be banned in the US someday, and then I'll have to either shut down bitcointalk.org or find a way of moving it to some remaining territory of freedom in the world. That's the problem with centralized forums. I wish that more work was being done on creating decentralized, uncensorable, but also usable forums. I would love nothing more than to be able to shut down bitcointalk.org due to some decentralized solution making it obsolete. Find me a 501(c)(3) nonprofit working on this, and I'll donate to it.

I still do not see the presence of mixers on the forum as a violation of the law.

Kucoin founders were recently indicted for not having KYC implemented. Is this an alarm for theymos to start banning all no-KYC services from the forum?
As far as I know, Kucoin is much more important in the crypto ecosystem than the mixers that caused the ban decision.

This forum is slowly turning into Gamblingtalk.

it is federal law and is a felony to receive 10000 usd worth of any crypto without reporting full kyc to the feds.

That sounds like an impossible law to follow. You have a Bitcoin address in your profile. Anyone can send you $15000, and you'll have no way to find out who it was. Then what? It's the digital equivalent of throwing a pile of money in the mailbox of a random house.

Aren't all money transfers over $10k, regardless of origin and whether cash or crypto under the radar of federal authorities?

[mindrust]

Aah the United States… the big country on a big continent full of British, African and Spanish prisoners/criminals…

https://mises.org/free-market/founding-fathers-smugglers-tax-evaders-and-traitors

During patriotic holidays, the news media applaud the Founding Fathers. But rarely does anyone mention some important facts about them: that they were smugglers, tax evaders, and traitors.

The Revolution is often said to have begun in 1775 at the Battle of Lexgton. In truth, it began in the 16th century when the first colonists began traveling to the New World.

…

Many of these tiny, primitive vessels went down, yet as the years passed, more and more colonists risked their lives to make the journey.

Why? What in Europe could have been so horrible that rational people would risk their lives and their children's lives to escape it?

Socialism. It wasn't called socialism in those days, but that is what it was—unlimited government control and taxation of everything and everybody. There were no free markets and no free enterprise. Regardless of how honest or hard working a person was, it did him little good unless he was in bed with the government.

…

Where are we running to next? Another planet?

Elon???

No, nowhere to run this time. Either there will be a huge civil war and people who demand freedom will fuck these retards up or… we will suck it up like we have always been doing for the last 100 years

[worldofcoins]

Jambler created a full-cycle software and sells its software to those who want to have a mixing business. And if you type “mix bitcoins” into Google and somehow end up on their website, you will not be able to make a mix as an ordinary user. You will need to deploy an affiliate node, which is 99.9% likely to deploy only if you want to become a real partner of the jumbler.

1. Is Jambler holding all the funds, or is the Partner Mixer? and partner mixer is responsible for mixing the coins?
2. I am learning to code right now and don't have the knowledge of how affiliate node works but i can only guess "and others may correct me if i am wrong"
    Do these affiliate nodes reward Partner Mixers or Jambler? (Jamber gets the percent commissions or the Mixing partner?)

Although Mixer Money advertise a different PGP but in the LOG everyone has same PGP.


The LOG template is identical. The variables are replaced by the partners information. Information like their Bitcoin address and individual partners name, mixing valid hours, mixing time.

Other mixers who are using Jambler have identical PGP, I think Jamble is doing the mixing and using other Mixers like MixTum as the front-end "Correct me if I am wrong here"

[Synchronice]

Wasabi wallet performs blockchain analysis, that's why I asked this question but Jumbler doesn't performs that.

Both perform blockchain analysis. The difference is that Wasabi performs and funds blockchain analysis for "the sake of the children", whereas Jambler does it to ensure the investors won't cheat and earn from their investments.

Jambler performs blockchain analysis for investors' funds, it's never said that they perform blockchain analysis for mixing coins (i.e. if I send coins for mixing to one of their partner, they will not undergo blockchain analysis). At least it's never said on their and their parters' websites.

Kucoin founders were recently indicted for not having KYC implemented. Is this an alarm for theymos to start banning all no-KYC services from the forum?
As far as I know, Kucoin is much more important in the crypto ecosystem than the mixers that caused the ban decision.

This forum is slowly turning into Gamblingtalk.

If there is an exchange that operates illegally and is in money laundering, then media will publish many articles about them and such exchanges should be banned from bitcointalk. Before such news are made, there should be no problem to promote them and talk about them.

I still maintain that the mixer ban is a long-term bad decision for the forum.

It's bad because they were paying a lot and that payrate was motivation for many good people to stay active on this forum. If we don't ban mixers, then long-term, this forum won't exist. Mixers don't follow any regulations, accept any kind of money and it's a reason for government to say that mixers participate in money laundering. So, since too many mixers help people to launder money, their existence on this forum is a serious threat.

[cryptosize]

Aah the United States… the big country on a big continent full of British, African and Spanish prisoners/criminals…

https://mises.org/free-market/founding-fathers-smugglers-tax-evaders-and-traitors

During patriotic holidays, the news media applaud the Founding Fathers. But rarely does anyone mention some important facts about them: that they were smugglers, tax evaders, and traitors.

The Revolution is often said to have begun in 1775 at the Battle of Lexgton. In truth, it began in the 16th century when the first colonists began traveling to the New World.

…

Many of these tiny, primitive vessels went down, yet as the years passed, more and more colonists risked their lives to make the journey.

Why? What in Europe could have been so horrible that rational people would risk their lives and their children's lives to escape it?

Socialism. It wasn't called socialism in those days, but that is what it was—unlimited government control and taxation of everything and everybody. There were no free markets and no free enterprise. Regardless of how honest or hard working a person was, it did him little good unless he was in bed with the government.

…

Where are we running to next? Another planet?

Elon???

No, nowhere to run this time. Either there will be a huge civil war and people who demand freedom will fuck these retards up or… we will suck it up like we have always been doing for the last 100 years

Australia was also founded by criminals and convicts! Iceland too by Norwegian murderers.

I guess the only continent left to colonize is Antarctica (assuming the ice cap melts)...

Regarding revolutions, they're a product of "toxic masculinity" and testosterone levels have fallen quite a bit during the last 100 years.

[philipma1957]

I remember years ago there was an EU project to require every user to identify themselves to access online social networks that could include forums, and theymos said something like that he was not going to pay any attention if a "Bolshevik" EU requirement came for that.

You mean this statement: I intend to ignore all stupidity coming out of the EUSSR?

In view of what's happened recently, I am not so sure what he would do now if such a requirement came, especially from the USA.

You can't really expect theymos to break the law. This comes to mind:

Maybe Bitcoin will be banned in the US someday, and then I'll have to either shut down bitcointalk.org or find a way of moving it to some remaining territory of freedom in the world. That's the problem with centralized forums. I wish that more work was being done on creating decentralized, uncensorable, but also usable forums. I would love nothing more than to be able to shut down bitcointalk.org due to some decentralized solution making it obsolete. Find me a 501(c)(3) nonprofit working on this, and I'll donate to it.

it is federal law and is a felony to receive 10000 usd worth of any crypto without reporting full kyc to the feds.

That sounds like an impossible law to follow. You have a Bitcoin address in your profile. Anyone can send you $15000, and you'll have no way to find out who it was. Then what? It's the digital equivalent of throwing a pile of money in the mailbox of a random house.

yep and you have two weeks to fill out the form and send it in to the IRS.

If you do not do it you did a felony. If you report the funds and list the sender as unknown no one know what will happen.

Here is a pool

https://pool.laurentiapool.org/#/miners

I mine here but I know he is usa based and I have pruchased 100000 worth of gear from him. So I point a miner there as I will be able to do a proper form.

here is or was my main pool

https://www.viabtc.com/

I shut my mining down because I am not sure how to comply with the law if I mine 20k a month and split 4 ways with my partners.

I don't know if viabtc will give me all the info I need to comply.

So I turned off 150000 usd in gear and I am selling it on eBay piece by piece.

The law is fucked up.

I no longer mine here

https://solo.ckpool.org


as I may not be able to comply if I hit a block.

You can't really expect theymos to break the law. This comes to mind:

Maybe Bitcoin will be banned in the US someday, and then I'll have to either shut down bitcointalk.org or find a way of moving it to some remaining territory of freedom in the world. That's the problem with centralized forums. I wish that more work was being done on creating decentralized, uncensorable, but also usable forums. I would love nothing more than to be able to shut down bitcointalk.org due to some decentralized solution making it obsolete. Find me a 501(c)(3) nonprofit working on this, and I'll donate to it.

I still do not see the presence of mixers on the forum as a violation of the law.

Kucoin founders were recently indicted for not having KYC implemented. Is this an alarm for theymos to start banning all no-KYC services from the forum?
As far as I know, Kucoin is much more important in the crypto ecosystem than the mixers that caused the ban decision.

This forum is slowly turning into Gamblingtalk.

it is federal law and is a felony to receive 10000 usd worth of any crypto without reporting full kyc to the feds.

That sounds like an impossible law to follow. You have a Bitcoin address in your profile. Anyone can send you $15000, and you'll have no way to find out who it was. Then what? It's the digital equivalent of throwing a pile of money in the mailbox of a random house.

Aren't all money transfers over $10k, regardless of origin and whether cash or crypto under the radar of federal authorities?

no I can buy a lot of gear with a cc say 20K and no issue.

I can buy a lot of gear with a check say 30k and no issues.

Now 10 k cash or 10 crypto is equal and I need full kyc from the entity that sent me the cash or the crypto.

This is a hard ship for medium size miners like me.

Yeah a good year I get 20-30k a month sent by the pool. I have to report it on a special form within 2 weeks or a felony.
So I really get more paperwork.

 I also  do not have guidance on what if avoid the 10k limit. I do 4k a week or 5k a week rather then wait for a month to move 20-30k a month.

 All of this would apply to all mixer coin coming to you in the usa.

No guidance on doing 1 or 2 or 3 k a week from a mixer as to whether you are breaking the 10k rule. The US is a reporting nightmare for a guy like me. I do over 100k in coin year after year as high as 300k some year.

My profits are about 50% spilt 4 ways.

So a 300k year means 4 guys split it and they split 150k after expenses.

So for a shitty $37.5k in my pocket I may end up doing 12 or more felonies a year. Thus I ended my mining partnership.

[bitmover]

You can't really expect theymos to break the law. This comes to mind:

Maybe Bitcoin will be banned in the US someday, and then I'll have to either shut down bitcointalk.org or find a way of moving it to some remaining territory of freedom in the world. That's the problem with centralized forums. I wish that more work was being done on creating decentralized, uncensorable, but also usable forums. I would love nothing more than to be able to shut down bitcointalk.org due to some decentralized solution making it obsolete. Find me a 501(c)(3) nonprofit working on this, and I'll donate to it.

I still do not see the presence of mixers on the forum as a violation of the law.

Kucoin founders were recently indicted for not having KYC implemented. Is this an alarm for theymos to start banning all no-KYC services from the forum?
As far as I know, Kucoin is much more important in the crypto ecosystem than the mixers that caused the ban decision.

But Kucoin is still operational and legal. It wasn't seized, and certainly it is not a darknet website like SB became.

This is the reason why mixers were banned. They are not having just small legal problems, they were getting seized and that may be a problem for the forum.

Bitcointalk.org aims to allow about as much freedom as is reasonably possible. But this is not a darknet forum, and with mixers looking "grayer and grayer", it's no longer reasonably possible to allow linking to mixers. Even though "a cryptocurrency mixing service is not necessarily illegal," a clear pattern has emerged where mixers pop up, last for a little while, and then get taken down by law enforcement once they get too big. Allowing mixers to be posted on bitcointalk.org before they seemingly-inevitably get declared illegal and seized is not sustainable. Therefore, promoting mixers will no longer be allowed, similarly to how darknet sites are already disallowed.

[cryptosize]

I remember years ago there was an EU project to require every user to identify themselves to access online social networks that could include forums, and theymos said something like that he was not going to pay any attention if a "Bolshevik" EU requirement came for that.

You mean this statement: I intend to ignore all stupidity coming out of the EUSSR?

In view of what's happened recently, I am not so sure what he would do now if such a requirement came, especially from the USA.

You can't really expect theymos to break the law. This comes to mind:

Maybe Bitcoin will be banned in the US someday, and then I'll have to either shut down bitcointalk.org or find a way of moving it to some remaining territory of freedom in the world. That's the problem with centralized forums. I wish that more work was being done on creating decentralized, uncensorable, but also usable forums. I would love nothing more than to be able to shut down bitcointalk.org due to some decentralized solution making it obsolete. Find me a 501(c)(3) nonprofit working on this, and I'll donate to it.

it is federal law and is a felony to receive 10000 usd worth of any crypto without reporting full kyc to the feds.

That sounds like an impossible law to follow. You have a Bitcoin address in your profile. Anyone can send you $15000, and you'll have no way to find out who it was. Then what? It's the digital equivalent of throwing a pile of money in the mailbox of a random house.

yep and you have two weeks to fill out the form and send it in to the IRS.

If you do not do it you did a felony. If you report the funds and list the sender as unknown no one know what will happen.

Here is a pool

https://pool.laurentiapool.org/#/miners

I mine here but I know he is usa based and I have pruchased 100000 worth of gear from him. So I point a miner there as I will be able to do a proper form.

here is or was my main pool

https://www.viabtc.com/

I shut my mining down because I am not sure how to comply with the law if I mine 20k a month and split 4 ways with my partners.

I don't know if viabtc will give me all the info I need to comply.

So I turned off 150000 usd in gear and I am selling it on eBay piece by piece.

The law is fucked up.

I no longer mine here

https://solo.ckpool.org


as I may not be able to comply if I hit a block.

So Satoshi is a criminal for hitting multiple 50 BTC blocks and not submitting KYC...

The most ironic fact here is that the state indirectly admits that BTC has some (inherent) value.

10k worth of BTC isn't worth... zero, as no-coiners would love you to believe (reminds me of "The Fox and the Grapes" by Aesop).

Deep inside their (depressed?) soul they know BTC is worth a lot...  the market has put a price on it, even if it fluctuates on a daily basis.

[Poker Player]

You mean this statement: I intend to ignore all stupidity coming out of the EUSSR?

Well, it must be that one but I misremembered it, as I thought it was a much more recent statement and confused the word ("Bolshevik" instead of "EUSSR").

You can't really expect theymos to break the law.

I did not say that I expect him to break the law. But what was in the past a categorical statement saying that he was not going to do that if he got a requirement from Europe, as the overton window shifts it may come from the US, and so I don't think he's going to say he's going to ignore the requirements that come from USASSR.

[examplens]

Now 10 k cash or 10 crypto is equal and I need full kyc from the entity that sent me the cash or the crypto.

I'm referring to this, the rule "everything over $10k (from an unknown source) must be explained" existed long before the creation of the first mixer, nor is it specifically aimed at mixing Bitcoin.

But Kucoin is still operational and legal. It wasn't seized, and certainly it is not a darknet website like SB became.

This is the reason why mixers were banned. They are not having just small legal problems, they were getting seized and that may be a problem for the forum.

Seized, because an anonymous person is behind it. If the mixer were legal, it would also be subject to fines in the event that it does not have KYC.
The SEC is now suing Uniswap because of similar reasons and the epilogue of this will be very important for the further development of decentralization and maintaining privacy. If Uniswap loses this case (this will affect all Defi platforms), they must be closed/seized, because they have no way to implement KYC.

I suggest that Bitcointalk ban all Defi platforms as soon as possible, and wordfilter their domains, why wait for a verdict and risk the forum being identified as a place where such services are desirable?

There is increasing pressure on privacy, it is sad to see a forum that "aims to allow about as much freedom as is reasonably possible", the first to take such drastic steps.

Not that I'm talking about this because of fucking profit from signature campaigns, the ban could only refer to promotion, it didn't have to be a complete expulsion from the forum. (I already suggested this earlier)

[LoyceV]

I suggest that Bitcointalk ban all Defi platforms as soon as possible, and wordfilter their domains, why wait for a verdict and risk the forum being identified as a place where such services are desirable?

DeFi was supposed to stand for "Decentralized Finance". If they can be shut down, they're not decentralized and don't deserve to use that name.

[bitmover]

I suggest that Bitcointalk ban all Defi platforms as soon as possible, and wordfilter their domains, why wait for a verdict and risk the forum being identified as a place where such services are desirable?

DeFi was supposed to stand for "Decentralized Finance". If they can be shut down, they're not decentralized and don't deserve to use that name.

I agree, you are right.

However,  the front end can be banned, and the developers can be punished, like tornado cash...

But the smartcontract can still be used , their api is still running in ethereum blockchain for those who knows how to use it.