Wasabi Wallet - Total Privacy For Bitcoin

[Wind_FURY]

I hope they mention/talk about the "disputes" that have been happening in the topic.

Spoiler: We didn't.

No shout out to the Bitcoin users of BitcoinTalk? That's utterly disappointing.

I'm still in the part when you're talking about Drivechains. I will continue listening during my lunch break. Plus it's nice to hear about your thoughts on the limitations and weaknesses of Wasabi. I respect the honesty, ser.

You also showed your face! I had to change apps from Spotify to YouTube.

[dkbit98]

Vlad probably should have included some of you and it would absolutely become more entertaining.

He can always come back and join the never ending dispute ''fun'' in forum.
Vlad has account in bitcointalk forum, but I think he is much more active in twitter and youtube than in bitcointalk forum, he was last active back in October of last year:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=3493228

[BlackHatCoiner]

I watched some parts of the podcast. It just doesn't feel like the troll I have been arguing for two years is the same guy in this video. While I didn’t find the podcast particularly profound or intellectual, I couldn't reconcile the person in the video with someone who would wish death on others or go to great lengths to avoid addressing the point. He seems to handle the questions well enough. If only he were the same way here.

Never judge a book by its cover I guess.

[Kruw]

Wasabi v2.2.0.0 is out! Download from https://wasabiwallet.io/

Release highlights: https://github.com/WalletWasabi/WalletWasabi/releases/tag/v2.2.0.0

🥕 Taproot receive addresses
🚀 Faster transaction broadcasting
🔍 Help to setup and find a coordinator
⏫ More accurate CPFP fee estimation
📉 Safer protocol
🪲 Backend optimizations

In this version, paying fees to coinjoin coordinators is discontinued, free coordinators are still supported. Read more here: https://blog.wasabiwallet.io/killing-coordination-fee/

[Wind_FURY]

Vlad probably should have included some of you and it would absolutely become more entertaining.

He can always come back and join the never ending dispute ''fun'' in forum. Vlad has account in bitcointalk forum, but I think he is much more active in twitter and youtube than in bitcointalk forum, he was last active back in October of last year: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=3493228

I'm quite sure he does. Someone should probably tell Vlad in X to read this topic. I'm very confident that he will find it very laughable in some parts and probably thought-provoking in others. Although, there's frequent nit-picking in the topic.

I watched some parts of the podcast. It just doesn't feel like the troll I have been arguing for two years is the same guy in this video. While I didn’t find the podcast particularly profound or intellectual, I couldn't reconcile the person in the video with someone who would wish death on others or go to great lengths to avoid addressing the point. He seems to handle the questions well enough. If only he were the same way here.

Never judge a book by its cover I guess.

He may be trolling us, but he was never a troll, not like -------. But he probably believes that there's hypocrisy in us because we joined some of those mixers' signature campaigns, or he probably assumed that we're "Samourai idealists".

[Kruw]

He may be trolling us, but he was never a troll, not like -------. But he probably believes that there's hypocrisy in us because we joined some of those mixers' signature campaigns, or he probably assumed that we're "Samourai idealists".

I have never used the term "Samourai idealist", I was explicitly clear by using the term "Scammer".

[Wind_FURY]

He may be trolling us, but he was never a troll, not like -------. But he probably believes that there's hypocrisy in us because we joined some of those mixers' signature campaigns, or he probably assumed that we're "Samourai idealists".

I have never used the term "Samourai idealist", I was explicitly clear by using the term "Scammer".

I believe that that may be too severe a word, no? Because you may disagree with the design decisions made by those Samurai developers, and they may actually be flawed, but I believe they come from a position of honesty. If indeed wrong, it will definitely come from a position of learning even though it will be learning the HARD WAY. But scammers? I believe not.

 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Although Vlad made a good point of asking where did the Samourai idealists go after the developers were detained.

[Kruw]

I believe that that may be too severe a word, no? Because you may disagree with the design decisions made by those Samurai developers, and they may actually be flawed, but I believe they come from a position of honesty. If indeed wrong, it will definitely come from a position of learning even though it will be learning the HARD WAY. But scammers? I believe not.

Samourai has nothing to do with the "mixing sites" advertised by scammers here.

[Wind_FURY]

I believe that that may be too severe a word, no? Because you may disagree with the design decisions made by those Samurai developers, and they may actually be flawed, but I believe they come from a position of honesty. If indeed wrong, it will definitely come from a position of learning even though it will be learning the HARD WAY. But scammers? I believe not.

Samourai has nothing to do with the "mixing sites" advertised by scammers here.

How are random people displaying advertisements of mixers in exchange for some Bitcoins = scammers? The campaign managers vouched for them as actually not "scams", many of the mixers advertised were actually not "scams", and no one in BitcoinTalk actually wanted people to get "scammed".

 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Plus centralized mixers indeed provide a service, no?

[Kruw]

How are random people displaying advertisements of mixers in exchange for some Bitcoins = scammers?

Because there's no service at all, a "mixing site" is just someone else's Bitcoin wallet. By using someone else's wallet to aggregate the stolen money, the scammers who are paid to spread the deposit link can keep repeating the process of stealing without ever getting banned:

It doesn't matter if they "couldn't have known" that Chipmixer would scam everyone, it matters that they "could've guessed" it would. After the Chipmixer scam, its promoters immediately switched to promoting the next scamming site. And after that mixing site scam predictably took everyone's money, guess what? These same promoters would move on to post ANOTHER mixing site scam in their signature.

These scammers understand a mixing site is just someone else's Bitcoin wallet. This allows forum users participating in these signature promotions to scam over and over and over again by just blaming their boss for taking all the money (while they get paid their cut of the scam up front for helping spread the scam's deposit link across the forum).

[Wind_FURY]

How are random people displaying advertisements of mixers in exchange for some Bitcoins = scammers?

Because there's no service at all, a "mixing site" is just someone else's Bitcoin wallet. By using someone else's wallet to aggregate the stolen money, the scammers who are paid to spread the deposit link can keep repeating the process of stealing without ever getting banned:

It doesn't matter if they "couldn't have known" that Chipmixer would scam everyone, it matters that they "could've guessed" it would. After the Chipmixer scam, its promoters immediately switched to promoting the next scamming site. And after that mixing site scam predictably took everyone's money, guess what? These same promoters would move on to post ANOTHER mixing site scam in their signature.

These scammers understand a mixing site is just someone else's Bitcoin wallet. This allows forum users participating in these signature promotions to scam over and over and over again by just blaming their boss for taking all the money (while they get paid their cut of the scam up front for helping spread the scam's deposit link across the forum).

If we're talking about ChipMixer, did they actually scam? Or did some government entities merely didn't spprove of their service?

I'm very confident to say that the participants of their signature campaign don't know or never had knowledge of the internal operations of the mixing service. They merely want to be incentivized in Bitcoin by joining the campaign.

Plus about "aggregation of stolen money", entities could also do that through JoinMarket and through those coordinators, no? It merely preserves Bitcoins's fungibility if you ask me. Crime doesn't exist in the blockchain. The coins are coins.

[Kruw]

If we're talking about ChipMixer, did they actually scam? Or did some government entities merely didn't spprove of their service?

Yes, Chipmixer was an actual scam:

~snip~
Even my chips which I had in chipmixer service for which they claimed to "delete private" keys after 7 days or whatever, were seized/transfered.
and these transactions took place good 3 months ago.

It seems that you are right, whoever had vouchers or chips was left without them. I checked some old wallets older than 1 year that only contained chips from CM, and they were all emptied. Yes, it's a bit stupid that I didn't spend them, but honestly I forgot about a few $ in those old wallets. It's really strange that it wasn't all deleted, but now we at least know where even 7GB of data came from.

Can confirm, they stole a chip of mine a friend of mine that he hadn't yet spent. :/ Really fucking bad practice of ChipMixer to keep private keys, not gonna lie.
It was still there today morning and even when the news broke here; I he had not considered that private keys may have been backed up on CM servers to be honest.

Plus about "aggregation of stolen money", entities could also do that through JoinMarket and through those coordinators, no?

No they can't because coinjoins are non custodial. In fact, you often see these "mixing site" scams advertise themselves as coinjoin services in order to gain more victims, here's an example: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5483310.0

You can see icopress is promoting custodial sites "Whirto", "Tengri", "Mixero" and "Unijoin" as coinjoin services. Now everyone who sends their money there will assume coinjoins are scams because they got their money stolen by yet another "mixing site".

[Wind_FURY]

If we're talking about ChipMixer, did they actually scam? Or did some government entities merely didn't spprove of their service?

Yes, Chipmixer was an actual scam:

~snip~
Even my chips which I had in chipmixer service for which they claimed to "delete private" keys after 7 days or whatever, were seized/transfered.
and these transactions took place good 3 months ago.

It seems that you are right, whoever had vouchers or chips was left without them. I checked some old wallets older than 1 year that only contained chips from CM, and they were all emptied. Yes, it's a bit stupid that I didn't spend them, but honestly I forgot about a few $ in those old wallets. It's really strange that it wasn't all deleted, but now we at least know where even 7GB of data came from.

Can confirm, they stole a chip of mine a friend of mine that he hadn't yet spent. :/ Really fucking bad practice of ChipMixer to keep private keys, not gonna lie.
It was still there today morning and even when the news broke here; I he had not considered that private keys may have been backed up on CM servers to be honest.

 

OK, I didn't know that part of the situation.

Plus about "aggregation of stolen money", entities could also do that through JoinMarket and through those coordinators, no?

No they can't because coinjoins are non custodial. In fact, you often see these "mixing site" scams advertise themselves as coinjoin services in order to gain more victims, here's an example: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5483310.0

You can see icopress is promoting custodial sites "Whirto", "Tengri", "Mixero" and "Unijoin" as coinjoin services. Now everyone who sends their money there will assume coinjoins are scams because they got their money stolen by yet another "mixing site".

I truly believe icopress is one of the good-actors in BitcoinTalk. Plus campaign managers are incentivized to be honest, because if they're dishonest, someone could give them a negative trust-rating and that would destroy their reputation, making their clients hire another campaign manager with a better reputation.

Perhaps he merely doesn't know that the actual CoinJoin is a decentralized protocol that mixes/obscures outputs? Inform him, so he can post a warning about the difference between traditional mixers and CoinJoins.

[Pmalek]

In fact, you often see these "mixing site" scams advertise themselves as coinjoin services in order to gain more victims, here's an example: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5483310.0

That's a bad example. There isn't a single mention of the word coinjoin in that thread by icopress. However, the word is mentioned on his website. There is a "CoinJoin" tag assigned to mixing services. But those services are grouped under the category of "Mixers".

@Wind_FURY
Haven't you figured out Kruw's logic yet?
If a scammer uses Kruw's coordinator and Wasabi to "clean" their stolen coins, that's ok and there is no problem there. Kruw and Wasabi aren't scammers for allowing that to happen. Everyone advertising Wasabi are heroes and privacy advocates.
If a scammer uses a mixer that later gets seized by the government, then the people paid to advertise said mixer are scammers and it's all their fault. They must also return all the coins the government seized.

Where the logic stops, Kruw begins.

[Kruw]

In fact, you often see these "mixing site" scams advertise themselves as coinjoin services in order to gain more victims, here's an example: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5483310.0

That's a bad example.

Why is it a bad example? It's a smoking gun that proves they are intending to scam: Coinjoins are non custodial, these sites are not.

[Wind_FURY]

@Wind_FURY
Haven't you figured out Kruw's logic yet?
If a scammer uses Kruw's coordinator and Wasabi to "clean" their stolen coins, that's ok and there is no problem there. Kruw and Wasabi aren't scammers for allowing that to happen. Everyone advertising Wasabi are heroes and privacy advocates.
If a scammer uses a mixer that later gets seized by the government, then the people paid to advertise said mixer are scammers and it's all their fault. They must also return all the coins the government seized.

Where the logic stops, Kruw begins.

My viewpoint - I don't care. Normal users, nefarious entities, government entities, business entities have the freedom to use, and/or the the risk to use, a censorship-resistant, permissionless protocol for any purpose that they want for themselves. 

In fact, you often see these "mixing site" scams advertise themselves as coinjoin services in order to gain more victims, here's an example: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5483310.0

That's a bad example.

Why is it a bad example? It's a smoking gun that proves they are intending to scam: Coinjoins are non custodial, these sites are not.

Perhaps it's better to merely inform icopress and have him remove the "CoinJoin" descriptions from what are not supposed to be CoinJoin applications/services. This is merely a misunderstanding and probably a lack of knowledge on what actually is the protocol called "CoinJoin".

[Pmalek]

My viewpoint - I don't care.

Perhaps not because you weren't affected personally.

But take a look at the following flawed logic.
You advertise an online casino in your signature. Without checking how exactly that casino works, I would guess that it's like any other gambling site: it has custody of your coins, it can freeze them, you can lose them, the money can be hacked, and essentially there is trust involved.

I, on the other hand, operate a casino that is (by some miracle) trustless. I can never confiscate your money, you have control of it at all times, and I can only take the wagers you lose.

The casino you advertise gets raided and seized by the feds for whatever reason, and the feds confiscate everyone's money because it's all deposited wallets that the casino control. Using flawed logic and pure viciousness, I start to claim that people who wore a Shuffle signature are scammers who should be ashamed of themselves because they tricked unknowing players into depositing money into a casino that was a scam. You, Wind_FURY, are a scammer. When will you return the money you stole?

Welcome to Kruw's mind.   

[BlackHatCoiner]

If a scammer uses Kruw's coordinator and Wasabi to "clean" their stolen coins, that's ok and there is no problem there. Kruw and Wasabi aren't scammers for allowing that to happen. Everyone advertising Wasabi are heroes and privacy advocates.
If a scammer uses a mixer that later gets seized by the government, then the people paid to advertise said mixer are scammers and it's all their fault. They must also return all the coins the government seized.

It's a pretty messed up situation, actually. His reasoning is that any privacy service that takes custody is a scammer, because you could have used Wasabi instead. I do however remember him claiming that throwing a criminal in a dungeon and denying him access to privacy is justified. It's safe to assume that his opinions are highly influenced by what he's shilling.

It's needless to say that censorship resistant money should come with censorship resistant privacy, and therefore everyone should have access to it, despite ethics. I've noticed some of us arguing the opposite when it comes to stolen coins, which opens up the Pandora box to start censoring.

[Wind_FURY]

My viewpoint - I don't care.

Perhaps not because you weren't affected personally.

But take a look at the following flawed logic.
You advertise an online casino in your signature. Without checking how exactly that casino works, I would guess that it's like any other gambling site: it has custody of your coins, it can freeze them, you can lose them, the money can be hacked, and essentially there is trust involved.

I, on the other hand, operate a casino that is (by some miracle) trustless. I can never confiscate your money, you have control of it at all times, and I can only take the wagers you lose.

The casino you advertise gets raided and seized by the feds for whatever reason, and the feds confiscate everyone's money because it's all deposited wallets that the casino control. Using flawed logic and pure viciousness, I start to claim that people who wore a Shuffle signature are scammers who should be ashamed of themselves because they tricked unknowing players into depositing money into a casino that was a scam. You, Wind_FURY, are a scammer. When will you return the money you stole?

Welcome to Kruw's mind.  

 

You misunderstood my viewpoint and you're going out of context from your original post. This is your post,

If a scammer uses Kruw's coordinator and Wasabi to "clean" their stolen coins, that's ok and there is no problem there. Kruw and Wasabi aren't scammers for allowing that to happen. Everyone advertising Wasabi are heroes and privacy advocates.

If a scammer uses a mixer that later gets seized by the government, then the people paid to advertise said mixer are scammers and it's all their fault. They must also return all the coins the government seized.

You were talking about CoinJoin coordinators, centralized mixers, and "Kruw's logic". The people from both sides of the debate have their viewpoints, but personally I don't care if a "criminal" or a "normal user" uses a Wasabi coordinator, a centralized mixer, or the Lightning Network to obtain more privacy. Bitcoin is a permissionless system. ANYONE can use it and its applications/services.

[Kruw]

I do however remember him claiming that throwing a criminal in a dungeon is justified. It's safe to assume that his opinions are highly influenced by what he's shilling.

Why isn't throwing criminals in prison justified?