The Stories on Bitcoin's Value

[JamesNZ]

You've all probably heard the stories on Bitcoin's value. Stories that portray Bitcoin not only as valuable, but precious. Stories by which buying bitcoins is one of the smartest things you can do. Well, all of that is just cheap propaganda. A bait to lure you to buy something worthless.

Bitcoins cannot be eaten or drunk. They cannot be seen like artwork or heard like music. They cannot be used to operate computers and execute specific tasks like computer software. They cannot be driven like a car or worn like jewelry. In short, bitcoins have no intrinsic value. When you buy them, you only get a short record, e.g. '5.1234 BTC'.

If someone issued a record and offered it to the public, they must redeem it. The record has to have redemption value. Casino chips, fiat currencies, shares, or gift cards are examples of such records. When you hold them, all you can see is a short string of characters written on a digital, plastic or paper media. There is nothing intrinsically valuable to consume or utilize. That's why their issuers must redeem them for something.

Casinos redeem their chips for cash. Banks redeem their currencies for debt servicing and liens release. Namely, the units of fiat currencies are issued as debt owed to banks - individuals and companies owe it to commercial banks based on loans, while governments owe it to central banks based on bonds. That's why the banks redeem deposits and banknotes for reducing or closing that debt and releasing liens on the property that secures it. Corporations, if they decide to end their business operations, redeem their shares for funds from liquidated assets. Finally, retailers redeem their gift cards for goods or services.

On the other hand, Satoshi Nakamoto, as the issuer of bitcoins, does not redeem them. He issues them through the protocol he wrote, but never redeems from anyone. If you invested electricity to make his system work and got bitcoins for it, Nakamoto won't redeem them even for a dime. Everyone who holds bitcoins knows this. They know that bitcoins have neither redemption nor intrinsic value. They know that bitcoins are worthless. That is why they are forced to get rid of them. Sell them to someone else. And to do this successfully, they need to publicly promote Bitcoin as valuable. They need to compare it to gold, diamonds or artwork. They must say it is the superior version of fiat currencies or money in general. That it can save us from greedy banks. That it is revolutionary like the Internet. That it is scarce. That it solves corruption or financial and economic problems. That it can lift poor countries out of poverty. They need to sugarcoat Bitcoin.

All these stories are of course ridiculous. They would be such even if bitcoins were units of equity, like shares or units of debt, like fiat currencies. But bitcoins are units of the number 21 million. Nakamoto came up with it in his imagination and wrote a protocol for assigning its units to online addresses and storing them in a decentralized database.

Numbers, whether they are stored centrally or decentrally, don't have magical powers. They cannot solve corruption, play the role of artwork or precious metals, lift countries out of poverty, save us from banks, or be scarce. They cannot be money if they are non-redeemable because there's nothing to compare with the value of goods and services. Those who make up or spread such stories know very well they are ridiculous. But they do it out of necessity. They invested huge amounts of redeemable or intrinsically valuable items into the scheme and it is necessary for them to get such items back. On the one hand, they don't want to be the bag holders. On the other hand, they want to profit from the scheme as much as possible. And that is literally all the wisdom behind the stories on Bitcoin's value.

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[Tytanowy Janusz]

You have a very shallow version of value "Anything I can't stuff into my belly has no value".
Let's start with gold.

only 7% of the gold supply goes to real applications and these applications were mostly invented in the last 100 years (electronics).  Before this, the only usefulness of gold was the desire to have gold. Using it in jewelry is also nothing more than a "desire to have gold", because gold does not have aesthetic values ​​that other cheaper metals do not have. Tombac worth 1% of the price looks the same on your finger. Gold-plated any metal also. The desire to have gold, something durable, expensive, eternal, desirable, and whats most important - rare - has given it value for thousands of years. Nothing else and definitely not the use in electronics. And bitcoin has all these features and it already have better stock/flow ratio than gold and it will get even better after halving.

unless you believe that gold's entire value is given by 7% of its use and that it is generally a metal we discovered 100 years ago and before that it was worthless.

Now art. An art student is able to paint the mona lisa 1:1 so that only experts will know the difference. So why is his work worth a maximum of $1000 and the original is worth billion? both are equally pleasing to the eye... Because utility is not the only thing that gives value.
Coming back to utility, bitcoin has a better stock/flow than gold, it is divisible to cents, it can be easily transferred, it is easy to sell and buy with low spreads (you don't risk buying a fake like in the case of gold), it cannot be seazed, its secured by through a network that cannot be attacked (tested in battlefield for 14 years) it cannot be printed like fiats and it is an ideal escape from the system but according to you, it has no value because you can't put it in your belly.
Money is moving to bitcoin not because old users are pumping up the marketing machine, but because the current system is bad for the retail investor. Go and buy shares. As soon as something bad starts happening in the company, first the insiders will start selling (you will buy more on the correction), then the insiders' family (you will buy again), then their friends, then the large funds will start selling, which have priority to information and finally everything You'll find out when you're 40% underwater. Go and buy bonds that have had negative real returns for years (adjusted for inflation) and their price is susceptible to changes in rates (TLT investors are short 40% in last 3 years)

[JamesNZ]

You have a very shallow version of value "Anything I can't stuff into my belly has no value".
Let's start with gold.

only 7% of the gold supply goes to real applications and these applications were mostly invented in the last 100 years (electronics).  Before this, the only usefulness of gold was the desire to have gold. Using it in jewelry is also nothing more than a "desire to have gold", because gold does not have aesthetic values ​​that other cheaper metals do not have. Tombac worth 1% of the price looks the same on your finger. Gold-plated any metal also. The desire to have gold, something durable, expensive, eternal, desirable, and whats most important - rare - has given it value for thousands of years. Nothing else and definitely not the use in electronics. And bitcoin has all these features and it already have better stock/flow ratio than gold and it will get even better after halving.

unless you believe that gold's entire value is given by 7% of its use and that it is generally a metal we discovered 100 years ago and before that it was worthless.

Now art. An art student is able to paint the mona lisa 1:1 so that only experts will know the difference. So why is his work worth a maximum of $1000 and the original is worth billion? both are equally pleasing to the eye... Because utility is not the only thing that gives value.
Coming back to utility, bitcoin has a better stock/flow than gold, it is divisible to cents, it can be easily transferred, it is easy to sell and buy with low spreads (you don't risk buying a fake like in the case of gold), it cannot be seazed, its secured by through a network that cannot be attacked (tested in battlefield for 14 years) it cannot be printed like fiats and it is an ideal escape from the system but according to you, it has no value because you can't put it in your belly.
Money is moving to bitcoin not because old users are pumping up the marketing machine, but because the current system is bad for the retail investor. Go and buy shares. As soon as something bad starts happening in the company, first the insiders will start selling (you will buy more on the correction), then the insiders' family (you will buy again), then their friends, then the large funds will start selling, which have priority to information and finally everything You'll find out when you're 40% underwater. Go and buy bonds that have had negative real returns for years (adjusted for inflation) and their price is susceptible to changes in rates (TLT investors are short 40% in last 3 years)

Yeah, that are the stories I am talking about.

[FatFork]

If something doesn't have intrinsic value but is offered to the public, the issuer of that thing must redeem it. The thing has to have redemption value.

That is not true! What about art or collectible items? Do they have intrinsic value? Or redemption value?

It's not right to twist facts to try and make bogus arguments.

[hd49728]

You've all probably heard the stories on Bitcoin's value. Stories that portray Bitcoin not only as valuable, but precious. Stories by which buying bitcoins is one of the smartest things you can do. Well, all of that is just propaganda. A bait to lure you to buy something worthless.

I don't know where you are those 'too good to be true' words but I know one book that is excellent and informative for you to explore Bitcoin and its potential.
The bullish case for Bitcoin

Bitcoins cannot be eaten or drunk. They cannot be seen like artwork or heard like music. They cannot be used for text or image editing like computer software. They cannot be driven like a car or worn like jewelry. In short, bitcoins have no intrinsic value.

Bitcoin is a Proof of Work blockchain and bitcoins are created by Bitcoin miners with their inputs for mining so there are intrinsic values for each bitcoin.

Estimating the Cost of Bitcoin Production
Realized Price chart.

[Blitzboy]

Bitcoin's value doesnt come from its actual features; it comes from its groundbreaking technology and the way it changes the way money works. Take a look: Bitcoin is not controlled by a single entity, which means it challenges established financial systems and provides an option to centralized banking systems. There is no one provider that needs to be redeemed; its a peer-to-peer system that doesnt need to be trusted. Your case is based on old-fashioned ways of valuing assets, without taking into account the new features of blockchain technology and digital scarcity.

Another important point that is missed in the comparison with foreign currencies and stocks is Bitcoin, like these other instruments, gets its value from the opinion and use of many people. Fiat currency is also just numbers and promises, but everyone accepts it. Bitcoin's potential lies in its ability to provide an alternative banking system that is not controlled by a single group. If we just brush it off as numbers, we miss the big effect its already had on how we think about money and value.

[ABCbits]

A warning to other reader, OP recycle his discussion from old thread to this thread. Here are short snippet from his other thread,

Source: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5474861.0

Finally, crypto units cannot be drunk, eaten, built into products, worn as jewelry, viewed as a picture or movie, or listened to as music. In short, they do not have an intrinsic value that creates a certain amount of benefit through the fulfillment of human needs, for this benefit to serve as a reference for the value of these units.

Source: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5472154.0

Let's therefore assume that those 100 units are 100 apples. Apples can fulfill the purpose of nutrion. By knowing that purpose, you can evaluate whether it is worth giving your bike for those 100 units. The same is true for other products that have historically been money - livestock, grain, wine, fur, metals, etc. All these products were able to fulfill purposes beyond serving as a medium of exchange. That was then used for estimating how many other products to give for them.

Source: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5467415.0

For example. By wheat having a nutritional purpose, speculators approximately know how valuable it is to consumers and whether prices are cheap or expensive. Similarly, by fiat currencies having the purpose of paying debt to the banks and by debtors facing foreclosures in case of default, speculators know these currencies are worth to debtors somewhere in the range of pledged collaterals. Meaning, they will not trade houses for a specific number of currency units if they see that banks take cars as collateral when issuing that number of units.

But since OP bother rewrite his points, moderator couldn't just delete/lock the duplicated threads.

[JamesNZ]

If something doesn't have intrinsic value but is offered to the public, the issuer of that thing must redeem it. The thing has to have redemption value.

That is not true! What about art or collectible items? Do they have intrinsic value? Or redemption value?

It's not right to twist facts to try and make bogus arguments.

Art and collectables have intrinsic value because they can be seen and thus satisfy human needs via the sense of sight.

Bitcoin's value doesnt come from its actual features; it comes from its groundbreaking technology and the way it changes the way money works. Take a look: Bitcoin is not controlled by a single entity, which means it challenges established financial systems and provides an option to centralized banking systems. There is no one provider that needs to be redeemed; its a peer-to-peer system that doesnt need to be trusted. Your case is based on old-fashioned ways of valuing assets, without taking into account the new features of blockchain technology and digital scarcity.

Another important point that is missed in the comparison with foreign currencies and stocks is Bitcoin, like these other instruments, gets its value from the opinion and use of many people. Fiat currency is also just numbers and promises, but everyone accepts it. Bitcoin's potential lies in its ability to provide an alternative banking system that is not controlled by a single group. If we just brush it off as numbers, we miss the big effect its already had on how we think about money and value.

Value is benefit that can be provided by the issuer of an item at redemption of that item or benefit that an item itself can provide when consumed for satisfing human needs.

Blockchain technology neither redeems bitcoins(units of the number 21 million) not it is Jesus to be able to turn numeric units into consumable items.

[Kakmakr]

Oh my...... we have one of those "intrinsic value" believers again.    Those people who think a signature of some Treasurer on a piece of  linen/cotton gives it value.  Those people that think that something only has value, when their trusted  ::)government says so.... 

I also want to see what he/she says the difference between the "digital" numbers on a Bank ledger or database is.... compared to the digital numbers in a Blockchain.  (Beyond the fact that the one on the centralized database are heavily manipulated and the one on the decentralized Blockchain are not) 

Wake up .... the world are changing.. 

[Fuso.hp]

There are many reasons why Bitcoin is so valuable to convert to a digital currency. Before Bitcoin there were many other coins in the crypto currency market but all the other coins could not get the attention of the investors and investors did not see anything special in any of the other coins that would make an investor prefer another coin. The value of Bitcoin and the popularity of Bitcoin were not like that in the beginning, if we dig through history we find some information that proves that Bitcoin was not a valuable coin to people at that time. A man paid a huge amount of bitcoins to buy just two pizzas. Imagine the position of the person who paid a large amount of BTC in exchange for two pizzas and the person who received a large amount of BTC in exchange for the pizza. At the current level of popularity of Bitcoin, in a few years its popularity may double.

[FatFork]

If something doesn't have intrinsic value but is offered to the public, the issuer of that thing must redeem it. The thing has to have redemption value.

That is not true! What about art or collectible items? Do they have intrinsic value? Or redemption value?

It's not right to twist facts to try and make bogus arguments.

Art and collectables have intrinsic value because they can be seen and thus satisfy human needs via the sense of sight.

No. That is a flawed argument. Art has no intrinsic value just because it looks real pretty to our eyeballs.  That don't work - if it did, a photo or copy of some famous paintin' would be just as good as the original.  But we all know that ain't the case and  plus, this logic also fails to account for other art forms, such as music or literature, whose value extends beyond sensory perception.

In fact, your interpretation of value suggests a very limited understanding of the concept, as it seems to be centered solely on your personal perspective. But that's not how the world really works. I already mentioned collectables. What gives them value according to your interpretation?

[JamesNZ]

If something doesn't have intrinsic value but is offered to the public, the issuer of that thing must redeem it. The thing has to have redemption value.

That is not true! What about art or collectible items? Do they have intrinsic value? Or redemption value?

It's not right to twist facts to try and make bogus arguments.

Art and collectables have intrinsic value because they can be seen and thus satisfy human needs via the sense of sight.

No. That is a flawed argument. Art has no intrinsic value just because it looks real pretty to our eyeballs.  That don't work - if it did, a photo or copy of some famous paintin' would be just as good as the original.  But we all know that ain't the case and  plus, this logic also fails to account for other art forms, such as music or literature, whose value extends beyond sensory perception.

In fact, your interpretation of value suggests a very limited understanding of the concept, as it seems to be centered solely on your personal perspective. But that's not how the world really works. I already mentioned collectables. What gives them value according to your interpretation?

Artwork has intrinsic value because it in itself provides benefit via the sense of sight. Units of capital(shares ) or units of debt (fiat) provide benefit when issuers redeem them. Units of the number 21 million (bitcoins) do not provide benefit themselves nor their issuer Nakamoto redeems them for something to provide benefit. It's simple. It's reality.

So, try to accept reality and live in hope that you will sell your worthless numeric units at good price to the greater fool. But stop with this stories about art because they are ridiculous and dumb.

[thecodebear]

OP, Bitcoin is a currency. It is scarce and useful and has benefits nothing else on earth has. And for all these reasons it is incredibly valuable. It's value proposition is pretty simple. What aren't you understanding about this?

You spent a lot of words trying to describe what Bitcoin isn't and then for some reason saying that means Bitcoin is worthless for what is isn't. But you never described what Bitcoin is. I just did. And in its description we see why Bitcoin is incredibly valuable to humanity.

[348Judah]

Bitcoins cannot be eaten or drunk. They cannot be seen like artwork or heard like music. They cannot be used for text or image editing like computer software. They cannot be driven like a car or worn like jewelry. In short, bitcoins have no intrinsic value.

Bitcoin may not be used for any of these but indirectly can be used to acquire all of these you have mentioned, there are many opportunities with bitcoin and you could also use this same digital currency to acquire what you want since it's a legal means of making payments and well recognized, what money can do to make life enjoyable for us, bitcoin can do thesame or even better, it's value is always appreciable and we can use it to acquire any necessary life achievement.

[Yatsan]

Bitcoins cannot be eaten or drunk. They cannot be seen like artwork or heard like music. They cannot be used for text or image editing like computer software. They cannot be driven like a car or worn like jewelry. In short, bitcoins have no intrinsic value.

Bitcoin may not be used for any of these but indirectly can be used to acquire all of these you have mentioned, there are many opportunities with bitcoin and you could also use this same digital currency to acquire what you want since it's a legal means of making payments and well recognized, what money can do to make life enjoyable for us, bitcoin can do thesame or even better, it's value is always appreciable and we can use it to acquire any necessary life achievement.

Intrinsic value is the perceived value of a particular thing and for sure demand is enough to support such things. With artwork perhaps, it is just a drawing and anyone could do it but why are some artworks has a huge value? It is because of demand; that there are people who would buy it for an amazing price simply because there are people who appreciates it. Same thing goes with Bitcoin wherein this community perceives high value of it which supports the increase on its price. It may not be having a physical value but there is a community which still generates the demand of it regardless of whether they will just ride the tide or they will use it in actual transaction. As long as there is an appreciation then there's a demand, therefore creating a value.

[GeorgeJohn]

Bitcoins cannot be eaten or drunk. They cannot be seen like artwork or heard like music. They cannot be used for text or image editing like computer software. They cannot be driven like a car or worn like jewelry. In short, bitcoins have no intrinsic value.

Bitcoin may not be used for any of these but indirectly can be used to acquire all of these you have mentioned, there are many opportunities with bitcoin and you could also use this same digital currency to acquire what you want since it's a legal means of making payments and well recognized, what money can do to make life enjoyable for us, bitcoin can do thesame or even better, it's value is always appreciable and we can use it to acquire any necessary life achievement.

Bitcoin is a digital currency I know quite well that have to do with both profit and loss and it's as form of a traditional currency, so therefore  I believe that the development of bitcoin have to do with the development of any other thing, secondly their is nothing a bitcoin can not achieve or buy as traditional currency can get the stuff, many people downgrade bitcoin because they don't know the important of bitcoin, right now investing with bitcoin is even more preferable and understandable than manual business because when you know the input and output of bitcoin you ensure that you abandon other business and face bitcoin,  but the problem is to know the basic concepts of bitcoin.

[JoyMarsha]

Everyone who holds bitcoins knows that.

What you are saying is arrant nonsense and there is no truth in it. And in the same vain believe that you are way backward and lack an understanding of what digital currency is.

It will serve good and be accepted if you are to leave this digital era we are in now to live in an analog way of life because that's what fits you to keep living with.

I can't just imagine someone coming to a bitcoin forum like this to discredit bitcoin when it is a known fact that many people have benefited from it hugely in their financial lifestyle.

Sorry, I sounded blunt but I hate it when someone tries to be irrational to the known fact that Bitcoin is the best thing that has happened to humanity.

[serjent05]

You've all probably heard the stories on Bitcoin's value. Stories that portray Bitcoin not only as valuable, but precious. Stories by which buying bitcoins is one of the smartest things you can do. Well, all of that is just propaganda. A bait to lure you to buy something worthless.

People who have something to impose or promote always make use of propaganda, it is not a new term for us, even governments are making propagandas in order to keep their citizens in check.  Whether Bitcoin is worthless depends on the person, since I believe that a person's junk can be another person's treasure.

Bitcoins cannot be eaten or drunk. They cannot be seen like artwork or heard like music. They cannot be used for text or image editing like computer software. They cannot be driven like a car or worn like jewelry. In short, bitcoins have no intrinsic value.

But Bitcoin can be traded to buy such things.  Bitcoin can be used to exchange for cash to buy food, hire people to create artwork, and compose music.  Buy a text or image editing computer software and even buy a car and property.  In which point does Bitcoin not have an intrinsic value?  You may not see Bitcoin to have intrinsic value but more people than you see Bitcoin have it even a certain country declares that Bitcoin is a legal tender.  As we all know intrinsic value is subjective so you cannot push your argument to others whether Bitcoin has intrinsic value or not.

[JamesNZ]

Stories, stories, stories. Everybody is just telling stories.

Is there any person on Earth who doesn't want to sell their bitcoins at one time in the future? No, no such person exists. Everybody must sell their bitcoins simply because, as explained in the opening post, Nakamoto doesn't redeem them nor they are intrinsically valuable for someone to be able to satisfy their needs with them. So what is the point of all those stories about their value if everybody wants to get rid of them exactly because they know bitcoins have no value? Well, the point is simple: to lure as many suckers as possible and dump them worthless coins at as a high a price as possible.

So, please stop with this nonsense stories. At least in this topic. Just admit why you're all here and move on.

[btc78]

Stories, stories, stories. Everybody is just telling stories.

Is there any person on Earth who doesn't want to sell their bitcoins at one time in the future?

as long as there is someone out there who wants to buy bitcoin, there will always be someone who would want to sell it especially if they can sell it for a higher price than the price they bought it for

if someone still believes in bitcoin’s value then there will always be demand bitcoin is developed in a way wherein inflation has a lesser chance of happening