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Author Topic: Mempool Observer Topic  (Read 12179 times)
joker_josue
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June 09, 2024, 07:48:00 AM
 #1001



What a funny graph, because of that rate madness that occurred 2 days ago.  Roll Eyes

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BlackHatCoiner
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June 09, 2024, 11:14:12 AM
 #1002

be aware that if you want to continue with your cult scripts... be aware we do not live in the 19th century.. its now 2024 where internet service providers are currently expanding internet speeds to reach above 1gb/s.. so go play with running realistic scenarios based on real world possibilities..
The fact that you think the small block size is solely a matter of technical obstacles proves my point. It isn't just a matter of bandwidth, latency and throughput. It's an economic problem. Bitcoin relies on transaction fees, not on subsidies. Therefore, there has to be fee market competition, or else you're risking with the long-term security.

If you rise the block size by a factor of x, then you should expect that the on-chain volume will rise accordingly, otherwise you're off.

I took my time to read the proposal which seems like a good idea but yet to understand it completely.
Which proposal did you read?

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FeeBuddy
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June 09, 2024, 01:59:52 PM
 #1003

     
  • fastestFee: 34 sat/vB
  • halfHourFee: 33 sat/vB
  • hourFee: 31 sat/vB
  • economyFee: 12 sat/vB
  • minimumFee: 6 sat/vB

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franky1
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June 09, 2024, 02:39:27 PM
 #1004

be aware that if you want to continue with your cult scripts... be aware we do not live in the 19th century.. its now 2024 where internet service providers are currently expanding internet speeds to reach above 1gb/s.. so go play with running realistic scenarios based on real world possibilities..
The fact that you think the small block size is solely a matter of technical obstacles proves my point. It isn't just a matter of bandwidth, latency and throughput. It's an economic problem. Bitcoin relies on transaction fees, not on subsidies. Therefore, there has to be fee market competition, or else you're risking with the long-term security.

not true, fee market competition in the cults mind is "pay more", however more transactions per block can cover any extra costs in total without costing individuals more
 
also mining hashrate has NO relation to block size.. no matter the block size, an asic performs difficulty rounds of hashs of the same length of block header hash no matter the block size

so how dare you even act like an idiot to even suggest more transactions costs asics hashing to cost more.. you have been in the bitcoin community for enough years to know better than the cult crap you copy

escape the cult narrative and run some actual scenarios, for yourself, to learn how things work.. stop just reciting cultish scripts thats make you look stupid

and lastly
when you want to abuse the "latency" argument, most nodes pre validate and add to mempool transactions and all they need is a blockheader and merkle tree. they dont need to be provided with a full block of all tx data when a block is confirmed by a mining pool
now please go do your research

this topic alone teaches you that nodes have no issue holding onto 300mb of transactions ready to compare to a blockheader+merkletree
so please i dare you to learn how bitcoin works

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
BlackHatCoiner
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June 09, 2024, 03:00:10 PM
 #1005

not true, fee market competition in the cults mind is "pay more", however more transactions per block can cover any extra costs in total without costing individuals more
Correct. If 1000 median transactions currently pay 1 BTC in fees, then each pays 100,000 sats. The miner would be equally satisfied if 10000 median transactions each paid 10,000 sats, or if 100M transactions each paid 1 sat.

The problem is that you can't be certain there will be 100 million transactions in each block. If you're wrong, you cannot be held accountable. If there aren't 100 million transactions every 10 minutes, then you're off and your system is not sustainable over the long term.

also mining hashrate has NO relation to block size.. no matter the block size, an asic performs difficulty rounds of hashs of the same length of block header hash no matter the block size
If the block size is 4 MB, then there is fee market competition, because there are more than 4 MB in total data broadcasted every 10 minutes on average. If you rise the block size to 1 GB, then you kill this competition, and now transactions can pay as little as 1 sat each. (Assuming the mempool's size is less than the block size limit)

Killing the competition is the equivalent of killing the miner's income from collecting transaction fees, which is directly related with the hashrate.

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pakhitheboss
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June 09, 2024, 03:12:31 PM
Last edit: June 09, 2024, 03:24:10 PM by pakhitheboss
 #1006

Mempool is experiencing disruptions and we are unable to control or prevent this abuse due to our ineffective community.

Someone here is getting funded by someone or some other. Still, you both are using AI to verify your outcome and banking that were trying to create something useful as in tutorials using AI or something that can lead to a scam.

Have any of you tried it, or are you guys old enough to know that it is useless now? I do not support them, but I think they make a hell of a tutorial, and in the coming months, Google searches will become irrelevant.


This is a test if you guys can find my post to be AI-generated. Please try!!

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franky1
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June 09, 2024, 03:46:50 PM
 #1007

not true, fee market competition in the cults mind is "pay more", however more transactions per block can cover any extra costs in total without costing individuals more
Correct. If 1000 median transactions currently pay 1 BTC in fees, then each pays 100,000 sats. The miner would be equally satisfied if 10000 median transactions each paid 10,000 sats, or if 100M transactions each paid 1 sat.

The problem is that you can't be certain there will be 100 million transactions in each block. If you're wrong, you cannot be held accountable. If there aren't 100 million transactions every 10 minutes, then you're off and your system is not sustainable over the long term.

also mining hashrate has NO relation to block size.. no matter the block size, an asic performs difficulty rounds of hashs of the same length of block header hash no matter the block size
If the block size is 4 MB, then there is fee market competition, because there are more than 4 MB in total data broadcasted every 10 minutes on average. If you rise the block size to 1 GB, then you kill this competition, and now transactions can pay as little as 1 sat each. (Assuming the mempool's size is less than the block size limit)

Killing the competition is the equivalent of killing the miner's income from collecting transaction fees, which is directly related with the hashrate.

again you are using extremes of irrationalness
100m transactions.. again you stupidly are implying gb blocks and 1.4billion tx a day in some non-sense fantasy of one world currency of everyone using bitcoin and no other fiat or crypto exists
wake up to the real world.. no one wants a one world currency
try real world scenarios

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
BlackHatCoiner
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June 09, 2024, 04:11:38 PM
 #1008

again you are using extremes of irrationalness
I'm using numbers close to what Satoshi envisioned: https://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography@metzdowd.com/msg09964.html.

100m transactions.. again you stupidly are implying gb blocks and 1.4billion tx a day in some non-sense fantasy of one world currency of everyone using bitcoin and no other fiat or crypto exists
1.4 billion transactions per day is pretty reasonable guess for the global reserve currency. Visa processes around 65,000 transactions per second. That's more than 5.6 billion per day, and that's Visa alone.

I want from Bitcoin to be able to scale to those numbers through the development of L2 solutions. You want it to not be able to even achieve a small fraction of what Visa achieves. Who wants the best for Bitcoin?

Edit: Sorry, I forgot I was talking to the person who thinks LN isn't Bitcoin.

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franky1
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June 09, 2024, 07:06:19 PM
Last edit: June 10, 2024, 04:43:51 PM by franky1
Merited by stompix (1), ABCbits (1)
 #1009

LN creates its own currency and is a different network. LN can even function without any references to bitcoin utxos..
grow up and learn that bitcoin never leaves the bitcoin network and realise any other network pretending to be bitcoin is the lie

as for your cult mentor taking words of satoshi and twisting it to then then form your mentors scripts.. ill just laugh at the failure. and ill laugh at your attempts to even dare try to say your motives are based on satoshis words. because you have no clue about what was actually said nor how it applies to the reality of bitcoin today

as for you wanting bitcoin to scale.. YOU DONT! ... you just follow a cult of stupidity that does not understand how bitcoin works but wants people to stop using bitcoin to then be moved to another network. you do this by using extreme LEAPING statements of irrational numbers to then speak ofreasons bitcoin should not scale and instead people should use another networl that lies about its promises of its functions and lies by pretending to be bitcoin

oh and visa does not do 65,000tx a second.. and 65k tx is not even close to 100m tx per 10min... DO THE MATH not even visa does 100m per 10 min(~1 blocktime)..

here is more of a rational stat
Quote
Roughly 266 billion purchase transactions worldwide involved Visa payment cards that year. That would equal approximately 0.72 billion Visa transactions per day in 2023. Note that all figures provided are estimates on general-purpose cards.
720m a day /24 = 30m an hour
30m an hour /6 = 5mill per block
5m /600 = 8,333 per second

and thats not based on one network of one data set..(quote: general purpose cards((plural) meaning of different systems))
Visa has multiple networks handling multiple currencies(£$Є¥₴) and also multiple systems (debit and credit)
in short the visa stat of 266billion purchases worldwide using the multiple currencies and networks and systems under brand of visa, is like saying cryptocurrency does X transactions per sec/hour/day/year.. its not comparable to bitcoin alone

so you are comparing an orange to a whole vineyard farm
so you are also suggesting people should not enjoy using an orange nor should an orange even try to grow and instead use grapes that pretend to be an orange

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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June 09, 2024, 09:59:51 PM
 #1010

     
  • fastestFee: 23 sat/vB
  • halfHourFee: 22 sat/vB
  • hourFee: 22 sat/vB
  • economyFee: 8 sat/vB
  • minimumFee: 4 sat/vB

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Lidger
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June 10, 2024, 05:21:10 AM
 #1011

25 sat/vB, 26 sat/vB, 27 sat/vB are the minimum medium and maximum Mempool at the moment. This process of transaction free changes every time. The current state may be increased or decreased after a few hours. But a few days ago when I donated some amount of btc to the ambulance campaign, after a few days the bitcoin transactions were very low. 
Max Mempool was like 9 sat/vB. But the current situation is not an unusual situation because it may cost five to seven dollars worth of bitcoins to trade bitcoins from this situation.

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June 10, 2024, 05:59:51 AM
 #1012

     
  • fastestFee: 31 sat/vB
  • halfHourFee: 29 sat/vB
  • hourFee: 27 sat/vB
  • economyFee: 14 sat/vB
  • minimumFee: 7 sat/vB

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stompix (OP)
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June 10, 2024, 01:33:15 PM
 #1013

1.4 billion transactions per day is pretty reasonable guess for the global reserve currency. Visa processes around 65,000 transactions per second. That's more than 5.6 billion per day, and that's Visa alone.

Look what you made me do, I merited Franky1...how are you going to compensate for this?
https://annualreport.visa.com/financials/default.aspx
So Visa does only 582 million on average so you're off by a factor of ten, and then you complain this is too much, this is that and impossible and everything! How about we stop with approximation and talk about real numbers, proven numbers?


The problem is that you can't be certain there will be 100 million transactions in each block. If you're wrong, you cannot be held accountable. If there aren't 100 million transactions every 10 minutes, then you're off and your system is not sustainable over the long term.

But if there are no 100 million transactions there will be no 1000Petablocks either, right??  Wink
Also, seems like you fail to understand we need only 20x the amount of transactions at exactly 1 sat/vb to compensate for the block having on average 20sat/vb, and again, if you think we can't have 10 million (funny how again you're off by an order of magnitude) tx in a day 12 years from now then you don't need a crystal ball to recognize a failure.

 

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June 10, 2024, 01:59:52 PM
 #1014

     
  • fastestFee: 42 sat/vB
  • halfHourFee: 38 sat/vB
  • hourFee: 34 sat/vB
  • economyFee: 18 sat/vB
  • minimumFee: 9 sat/vB

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June 10, 2024, 02:57:28 PM
 #1015

Look what you made me do, I merited Franky1...how are you going to compensate for this?
Frankly, I don't care. If I see something wrong, I'll speak up. End of story.

So Visa does only 582 million on average so you're off by a factor of ten, and then you complain this is too much, this is that and impossible and everything! How about we stop with approximation and talk about real numbers, proven numbers?
The average transactions per second is not equivalent to the capacity. Capacity is the maximum transactions it can handle per second, and it's more than 65,000, just google "visa transaction capacity".

And you're both missing the point. Visa can increase its capacity if there is a need for more than 65,000 transactions per second because it is a single, centralized system. Decentralized systems do not function this way. This is intended to be a "peer-to-peer cash system", remember? Clients must verify everything.

Beyond that, let's not repeat the same arguments about the burden of running a node. I'm focusing on the economic aspect of small block sizes. If you want to compete with Visa, you need gigabytes of block size. If you recognize the sustainability issues that arise from "scaling" to gigabytes of block size, you need to stop comparing it with Visa and find another way to scale the system.

But if there are no 100 million transactions there will be no 1000Petablocks either, right??
Wrong. You can create transactions that have arbitrary data. It's nowadays called "spam".

Also, seems like you fail to understand we need only 20x the amount of transactions at exactly 1 sat/vb to compensate for the block having on average 20sat/vb, and again, if you think we can't have 10 million (funny how again you're off by an order of magnitude) tx in a day 12 years from now then you don't need a crystal ball to recognize a failure.
So, is 80 MB the ideal size? Or should it double with every halving? I can't keep up with the changing goalposts!



Try taking a shot every time we've made this conversation and you've made your Friday night.

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June 10, 2024, 04:22:32 PM
Last edit: June 10, 2024, 05:00:46 PM by franky1
 #1016

Beyond that, let's not repeat the same arguments about the burden of running a node. I'm focusing on the economic aspect of small block sizes. If you want to compete with Visa, you need gigabytes of block size. If you recognize the sustainability issues that arise from "scaling" to gigabytes of block size, you need to stop comparing it with Visa and find another way to scale the system.

again..
you are exaggerating visa.. by not understanding your visa measures are based on:
a. multiple networks of separate currencies and payment systems branded as "visa" and then trying to compare that to bitcoin as one network..
b. extremities of a failed comparison to suggest bitcoin becomes a "one world currency"
c. exaggerations of numbers of actual transactions performed by visa

also your exaggerations are based on a concept of LEAPING to extremities of "gigabyte" as a way to AVOID conversations of SCALING
you have been trained by an idiot to make arguments against SCALING bitcoin by using stupidity statements about scenarios of other networks and also of stupidity statements of leaping

as for the "node burden"
you promote that your favoured other network(LN) can handle millions of transactions a second.. which. via their own mechanisms of gossip updates and routing onion messages means if they want to suggest their nodes can handle millions of datapackets a second.. then its not a device, internet, user, node issue to handle millions of transaction lengths per second

also looking at the mempool quota.. (300mb-500mb) nodes already do and have the ability to relay and verify hundreds of megabytes thus nodes can handle it.
and like said and said by many, blocks dont need to propogate every transactions again at a mining pools block solution event. something you could learn if you took the time to learn about bitcoin instead of wasting time learning about how to promote your favoured other network(LN)

but like many people are trying to tell you, leaping to a block of 300mb-1gb is never been the argument for any year of bitcoiners tryin to teach you reality.. scaling is about adjustable incremental additions over time.. and guess what, mining pools get to decide how much they fill a block. if the propagation of their filled block causes delay that can cause their block to orphan due to a faster competitor block.. then pools will decide the safe amount..
yep the actual economics is that even if we did lean to allow a 1gb block.. and it was found that the first mining pool that tried it had their block orphaned due to latency issues.. the next block they try even if protocol limit stayed at 1gb, would be they would only fill 500mb
and if those blocks orphan, they would try 250mb, then 125mb
infact if there was a 1gb protocol limit.. pools would start from 4mb and increment to 8mb and see if that block orphans, then try 16mb and see if that block orphans all the way to a amount that does orphan to know current network ability.. even if there was a protocol limit of 1gb
meaning there is actually an economic incentive that mining pools would perform to SCALE blocks even if the protocol hard limit was 1gb
mining pools would decide their own safe limit via scaling/incrementing of blocksize growth below the hard limit to pretend their blocks being orphaned
its like 2009-2015 where even though the 32mb-1mb limit existed.. the network 2009-2013 only filled blocks in increments upto 0.5mb then upto 1mb leading to 2015, .. thus your statements of pretending the network would fail if there was a large limit, is false

as for the revenue for miners.. you are stupidly ignoring the ACTUAL market of the bitcoin (fiat price), you dont need people to be forced to pay more sat fee, the actual fiat market price increases how much each sat is worth as a way to compensate miners without increasing the number of sats people pay as fee

yep the actual economics of bitcoin is FIAT market price of sats.. not how many sats are needed to be spent to afford the fiat costs

also another failed script of your mentor(hardware cost of PC to be a node) is that if he thinks people who transact on bitcoin daily should pay $20+ per tx as being reasonable fee.. then he is also saying its reasonable for people to pay $7200 a year to use bitcoin.. so any arguments about paying just $500 every 5 years for a PC become moot point about affordability if he thinks paying $36000 every 5 years on fee's alone is "fine and reasonable"

so learn about how bitcoin works(block creation/propagation/tx relay/mining pools/mempools/nodes/asic miners) and the economics of bitcoin(the deflationary effect of the market price)



I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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June 10, 2024, 06:54:03 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1), ABCbits (1)
 #1017

Imagine if Satoshi tried to have a democratic poll back in 2008 about how Bitcoin should be... how many coins, issuance schedule, algo etc.

Bitcoin still wouldn't exist to this very day due to constant & multiple disagreements! Grin

So if you expect various people to agree on the "ideal" block size, then this debate won't even end in 1000 years from now.

Bitcoin was set in stone long time ago. It is what it is.

My personal subjective opinion is that Bitcoin shouldn't have been made to store arbitrary data in the first place, but clearly Satoshi wanted that (see: bank bailout genesis message).

Yes, I know it's possible to use 256-bit addresses to store arbitrary data indirectly (kinda like using ASCII art to store/transmit images if JPEG didn't exist), but just like ASCII art, it will never be particularly efficient or attractive for mainstream usage. That's why most people use JPEG these days (we don't live in the 80s anymore).

So ideally I believe the BTC blockchain should just host financial transactions and nothing more than that. No scripting ability either. As lightweight as possible (too bad MimbleWimble didn't exist back in 2008).

If that was the case, then perhaps scalability would be a lot better today.

Regarding arbitrary data, there should be an optional sidechain where you can host all sorts of stuff.

The last thing we want (it may have happened already, I don't know) is a malicious actor/butthurt no-coiner to store pedo pr0n or even copyrighted material in the immutable BTC blockchain and make it really hard to run a BTC node without breaking the law.

Also, another thing that hurts adoption these days is that you have to spend money to get BTC.

Back in 2009-2010 not only mining was easy-peasy, but also there were multiple faucets where you could get 1-2 BTC with minimal effort.

Fiat/CBDC money on the other hand can be provided for free under certain circumstances (i.e. COVID stimmy checks back in 2020-2021 and UBI in the future).

How do you expect Bitcoin to compete against CBDC? Most no-coiners are not willing to spend a single dime on it and most Bitcoiners are not willing to hand out satoshis to anyone.
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June 10, 2024, 09:59:51 PM
 #1018

     
  • fastestFee: 29 sat/vB
  • halfHourFee: 29 sat/vB
  • hourFee: 28 sat/vB
  • economyFee: 16 sat/vB
  • minimumFee: 8 sat/vB

bitcoindata.science - Donate here bc1qvq66kccea2fdqft6kss2zyn8y32z8xyy9rzhp0
Data from mempool.space.
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June 11, 2024, 05:59:51 AM
 #1019

     
  • fastestFee: 33 sat/vB
  • halfHourFee: 31 sat/vB
  • hourFee: 29 sat/vB
  • economyFee: 14 sat/vB
  • minimumFee: 7 sat/vB

bitcoindata.science - Donate here bc1qvq66kccea2fdqft6kss2zyn8y32z8xyy9rzhp0
Data from mempool.space.
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June 11, 2024, 07:43:09 AM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #1020

Yes, I know it's possible to use 256-bit addresses to store arbitrary data indirectly (kinda like using ASCII art to store/transmit images if JPEG didn't exist), but just like ASCII art, it will never be particularly efficient or attractive for mainstream usage. That's why most people use JPEG these days (we don't live in the 80s anymore).
Storing arbitrary data is not attractive in general, be it in 256-bit chunks or otherwise. It's expensive and inefficient. People who permanently want to store their garbage will find the way to do it.

So ideally I believe the BTC blockchain should just host financial transactions and nothing more than that. No scripting ability either. As lightweight as possible (too bad MimbleWimble didn't exist back in 2008).
Being programmable is the beauty behind Bitcoin. Without Script, sidechains and Layer 2 solutions would not be possible, and the system wouldn't be able to scale. And not only that. Nearly every change would require a hardfork. Being programmable provides the flexibility to support the creation of solutions that have yet to be conceived.

Or, read this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=195.msg1611#msg1611.

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