Signature mixers question

[takuma sato]

You can keep records taking screenshots, and archiving webpages too I guess. However, the problem remains: The taxman may not enjoy that you promoted mixers, considering the bad rep they have nowadays, increasingly bad it seems, since they talk about passing anti mixer laws, so you would be promoting the same thing they want to ban. If you hodl on this capital, by the time you cash it may be even worse by then. This is the main problem here. It is only reasonable to think in advance and try predict what the response will be when you show up with mixer sig campaign earnings.

If you insist on seeing problems instead of solutions, it is not surprising that you only see problems.

What is clear is that you don't have a fucking clue about law. What the IRS likes or dislikes doesn't matter. If you file taxes for signature campaigns mixers he can't take legal action against you because they are not illegal. And if in 5 years they are declared illegal he can't act retroactively against you for having filed the taxes of this year.

You can continue to insist on seeing a problem while the rest of us will continue without any problems because of our signature campaign earnings.

Why is it that some people assume everyone is under IRS jurisdiction? The IRS may not care, I don't know how they operate there. I do know tho, that exchanges like Coinbase and co use chainalysis type databases so if you get paid from a mixer, who is to say the tx doesn't contain a tainted address that you now link to with your dox as you make the deposit? This problem applies under any jurisdiction as long as you use KYC exchanges with enough liquidity to matter.

This is why in the future withdrawing or depositing coins into exchanges will be a problem due the lack of fungibility of BTC, and will eventually probably be outlawed. In part this is why they want to approve ETFs, to move liquidity from exchange into proxies.

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[Poker Player]

Why is it that some people assume everyone is under IRS jurisdiction?

And why are you quoting me when you say that? I am not under the jurisdiction of the IRS and what I say does not apply only to what the IRS does or does not do. There are general principles of law that apply to all countries unless you live in a dictatorship, and they are that you cannot be penalized for something that is not illegal today, no matter what the taxman thinks or doesn't think, and that you cannot be penalized retroactively if it is declared illegal tomorrow.

But you keep on looking for problems instead of seeing solutions, while the rest of the forum has been years without any problem for the signature campaign earnings.

[LoyceV]

You can keep records taking screenshots, and archiving webpages too I guess.

I've also made private deals. I don't see a problem with that for "my" taxman.

However, the problem remains: The taxman may not enjoy that you promoted mixers

I don't care what the taxman enjoys or not. Maybe he doesn't like garlic either, none of that is my problem as long as I don't do anything illegal.

considering the bad rep they have nowadays, increasingly bad it seems, since they talk about passing anti mixer laws, so you would be promoting the same thing they want to ban.

I stopped promoting mixers after CM, but "wanting to ban something" doesn't make it illegal right until the moment they ban it.

If you hodl on this capital, by the time you cash it may be even worse by then. This is the main problem here. It is only reasonable to think in advance and try predict what the response will be when you show up with mixer sig campaign earnings.

See:

An ex post facto law[1] is a law that retroactively changes the legal consequences (or status) of actions that were committed, or relationships that existed, before the enactment of the law.
~
Ex post facto laws are expressly forbidden by the United States Constitution in Article 1, Section 9, Clause 3 (with respect to federal laws) and Article 1, Section 10 (with respect to state laws).
~
Ex post facto criminalization is prohibited by Article 7 of the European Convention on Human Rights, Article 15(1) of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights,[2] and Article 9 of the American Convention on Human Rights.[3] While American jurisdictions generally prohibit ex post facto laws, European countries apply the principle of lex mitior ("the milder law"). It provides that, if the law has changed after an offense was committed, the version of the law that applies is the one that is more advantageous for the accused. This means that ex post facto laws apply in European jurisdictions to the extent that they are the milder law.

There's also the direct risk of depositing coins that came from sig campaign earnings into an exchange, or any mixed amounts for that matter.

That's true. The exchange may ask questions, just like my bank asked questions. My bank doesn't like that any more than I do (and spying on their customers is expensive), but governments demands them to do so.

But for bigger amounts, you'll have problems trying to do anything with that stored capital, which may require some more creative solutions which include additional risks.

That's why I report my taxes: it prevents bigger problems in the future.

Why is it that some people assume everyone is under IRS jurisdiction?

It might help if you start by sharing which jurisdiction you live in. If your government can criminalize things retroactively, you have other things to worry about than just signature earnings.

This problem applies under any jurisdiction as long as you use KYC exchanges with enough liquidity to matter.

My bank gets a lot more nervous if I'd use P2P trading instead of an established exchange. That would mean I have financial transactions with people I don't know.

[takuma sato]

You can keep records taking screenshots, and archiving webpages too I guess.

I've also made private deals. I don't see a problem with that for "my" taxman.

However, the problem remains: The taxman may not enjoy that you promoted mixers

I don't care what the taxman enjoys or not. Maybe he doesn't like garlic either, none of that is my problem as long as I don't do anything illegal.

considering the bad rep they have nowadays, increasingly bad it seems, since they talk about passing anti mixer laws, so you would be promoting the same thing they want to ban.

I stopped promoting mixers after CM, but "wanting to ban something" doesn't make it illegal right until the moment they ban it.

If you hodl on this capital, by the time you cash it may be even worse by then. This is the main problem here. It is only reasonable to think in advance and try predict what the response will be when you show up with mixer sig campaign earnings.

See:

An ex post facto law[1] is a law that retroactively changes the legal consequences (or status) of actions that were committed, or relationships that existed, before the enactment of the law.
~
Ex post facto laws are expressly forbidden by the United States Constitution in Article 1, Section 9, Clause 3 (with respect to federal laws) and Article 1, Section 10 (with respect to state laws).
~
Ex post facto criminalization is prohibited by Article 7 of the European Convention on Human Rights, Article 15(1) of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights,[2] and Article 9 of the American Convention on Human Rights.[3] While American jurisdictions generally prohibit ex post facto laws, European countries apply the principle of lex mitior ("the milder law"). It provides that, if the law has changed after an offense was committed, the version of the law that applies is the one that is more advantageous for the accused. This means that ex post facto laws apply in European jurisdictions to the extent that they are the milder law.

There's also the direct risk of depositing coins that came from sig campaign earnings into an exchange, or any mixed amounts for that matter.

That's true. The exchange may ask questions, just like my bank asked questions. My bank doesn't like that any more than I do (and spying on their customers is expensive), but governments demands them to do so.

But for bigger amounts, you'll have problems trying to do anything with that stored capital, which may require some more creative solutions which include additional risks.

That's why I report my taxes: it prevents bigger problems in the future.

Why is it that some people assume everyone is under IRS jurisdiction?

It might help if you start by sharing which jurisdiction you live in. If your government can criminalize things retroactively, you have other things to worry about than just signature earnings.

This problem applies under any jurisdiction as long as you use KYC exchanges with enough liquidity to matter.

My bank gets a lot more nervous if I'd use P2P trading instead of an established exchange. That would mean I have financial transactions with people I don't know.

Im on a jurisdiction that's considered first world, so you would expect a stable set of rules whose cannot change arbitrarily and to not be applied retroactively, however, I think it's a good principle to never trust the government and lawmakers in general when it comes to crypto, they hate it by default and they have some of the best lawyers out there trained to make your life miserable if they want to. Even if you managed to win a case, the amount of stress and money spend fighting them may wreck you financially in the process. So I would like to avoid these situations.

You report your taxes, but what do you do if the address that pays you had tainted coins, and once you deposit them on an exchange, it activates an alarm next to your dox. Not a great situation to be at. This is the main problem I believe, or at least the first one you want to solve, because this is automated. The government or bank or both may or not ask about context of the money, but if the coins are tainted and you deposit them, it will be guaranteed that you'll face some problems there.

[LoyceV]

You report your taxes, but what do you do if the address that pays you had tainted coins, and once you deposit them on an exchange

Give me the official definition of tainted coins. I'll help you: it doesn't exist. There are several companies trying to sell the idea of taint, but it only exists when you believe it. And I don't believe it.
Most banknotes contain traces of cocaine, and that doesn't matter. Fungibility means all banknotes are equal. The same applies to Bitcoin. And just like banks don't want to take banknotes from criminals, exchanges don't want to take Bitcoins from criminals. If you're not a criminal, you'll be able to prove you legally earned those Bitcoins. And you should be okay.

it activates an alarm next to your dox. Not a great situation to be at.

True, it's annoying having to deal with this.

[yhiaali3]

For me, the good thing is that there are no laws related to Bitcoin or mixers yet. The government in my country completely ignores Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies and there are no regulatory laws, so there is no concern about taxes or the like.

Personally, I receive payment from mixer campaigns to the wallet and then convert it to local currency in my country through a local intermediary and therefore I do not have any problem with the IRS, basically they do not know anything about my work.

[zasad@]

You report your taxes, but what do you do if the address that pays you had tainted coins, and once you deposit them on an exchange

Give me the official definition of tainted coins. I'll help you: it doesn't exist. There are several companies trying to sell the idea of taint, but it only exists when you believe it. And I don't believe it.
Most banknotes contain traces of cocaine, and that doesn't matter. Fungibility means all banknotes are equal. The same applies to Bitcoin. And just like banks don't want to take banknotes from criminals, exchanges don't want to take Bitcoins from criminals. If you're not a criminal, you'll be able to prove you legally earned those Bitcoins. And you should be okay.

Have you ever encountered the compliance procedure of crypto exchanges?
Do you know how many basic questions you will be asked at the beginning and how many additional ones?
This procedure can only be completed if the coins were purchased legally on a large exchange; in other cases this is very difficult to do.

[LoyceV]

Have you ever encountered the compliance procedure of crypto exchanges?

Yes.

Do you know how many basic questions you will be asked at the beginning and how many additional ones?

I got one question. In short: "explain the origin".

This procedure can only be completed if the coins were purchased legally on a large exchange; in other cases this is very difficult to do.

It wasn't difficult, but it's annoying. I hate how governments force companies to spy on customers.

[NotATether]

You don't pay taxes until you "cash out" your bitcoins into the appropriate fiat currency.

So Bitcoin transactions don't have to be declared.

Deposits and withdrawals do have to be declared (i.e. how much BTC you bought and sold).

[LoyceV]

You don't pay taxes until you "cash out" your bitcoins into the appropriate fiat currency.

So Bitcoin transactions don't have to be declared.

That depends on where you live. Here, all earnings must be reported, and there's an annual wealth tax. I really live in the wrong country

Deposits and withdrawals do have to be declared (i.e. how much BTC you bought and sold).

We don't have a capital gains tax, so I don't have to report any of this.

[zasad@]

Have you ever encountered the compliance procedure of crypto exchanges?

Yes.

Do you know how many basic questions you will be asked at the beginning and how many additional ones?

I got one question. In short: "explain the origin".

This procedure can only be completed if the coins were purchased legally on a large exchange; in other cases this is very difficult to do.

It wasn't difficult, but it's annoying. I hate how governments force companies to spy on customers.

I use centralized exchanges without KYC, but I transfer a few coins there at a time so that I can answer any request: “Go to hell.”

You don't pay taxes until you "cash out" your bitcoins into the appropriate fiat currency.

So Bitcoin transactions don't have to be declared.

Deposits and withdrawals do have to be declared (i.e. how much BTC you bought and sold).

Don't you think that this is an intermediate stage?
If Bitcoin becomes a global cryptocurrency, then permits or licenses will be required for its storage, or citizens will be allowed to store Bitcoins only in custodial bank wallets.

[LoyceV]

I use centralized exchanges without KYC, but I transfer a few coins there at a time so that I can answer any request: “Go to hell.”

Do you use those exchanges for fiat transfers? In that case they'll know your bank account details.

[zasad@]

I use centralized exchanges without KYC, but I transfer a few coins there at a time so that I can answer any request: “Go to hell.”

Do you use those exchanges for fiat transfers? In that case they'll know your bank account details.

Not using. For P2P transfers, KYC is required, but for trading cryptocurrencies, KYC is not needed.

In Russia there are no criminal penalties for people who open a bank account and sell their bank cards.
Such a set with a SIM card costs $50-100, but if you only withdraw cash from an ATM, then blocking can happen very quickly, after withdrawing 2-5 thousand dollars.

[Lucius]

~snip~
In Russia there are no criminal penalties for people who open a bank account and sell their bank cards.
Such a set with a SIM card costs $50-100, but if you only withdraw cash from an ATM, then blocking can happen very quickly, after withdrawing 2-5 thousand dollars.

One member of the forum offers such "No KYC cards" at a price of around 1000 EUR per year of use, and it seems to be quite a lucrative business. Of course, there are some rules for using the card so that it would not be blocked. However, regardless of the fact that the sale of bank cards is not punishable in Russia, I wonder who is responsible if such a card is involved in a criminal offense - the owner of the card or the one who actually uses it?

[zasad@]

~snip~
In Russia there are no criminal penalties for people who open a bank account and sell their bank cards.
Such a set with a SIM card costs $50-100, but if you only withdraw cash from an ATM, then blocking can happen very quickly, after withdrawing 2-5 thousand dollars.

One member of the forum offers such "No KYC cards" at a price of around 1000 EUR per year of use, and it seems to be quite a lucrative business. Of course, there are some rules for using the card so that it would not be blocked. However, regardless of the fact that the sale of bank cards is not punishable in Russia, I wonder who is responsible if such a card is involved in a criminal offense - the owner of the card or the one who actually uses it?

If this bank card is involved in petty fraud or cash-out or a minor crime, then it all depends on what testimony the person who sells the bank card will give. If he says that he sold the card to an unknown person, hiding it in the specified place. And the reason was an acute financial need, and there was not enough money for food, then the seller will not have criminal and administrative liability, except for a red mark in the bank.

But if this bank card is involved in a serious crime, such as terrorism, extremism, then the seller may have very big problems, even a long criminal sentence. Such criminal cases are closed and classified, so it is difficult to say the exact result.

[dansus021]

I'm supposed to do a report every time I get paid - which means every week, which is completely insane. Therefore, if someone makes such an insane request, I think we can agree that paying taxes on the earnings from signature campaigns is by no means an option for people in my situation.

Given that I live in an extremely corrupt country where in the last 8 years about 30 ministers have been fired or resigned due to corrupt actions, believe me I sleep peacefully when I know that my money did not go into their pockets.

What is that real you need to file a report every time you get paid, here in my country Just the same as zasad@ that you need to fill in a year.
What country do you live in bro? just curious 

and maybe if I were Op I would not going to record any money that comes from the mixer neither from signature or my personal fund since the mixer in my opinion is kinda in a grey area at least for the regulator. so better opt-out.

[zasad@]

I'm supposed to do a report every time I get paid - which means every week, which is completely insane. Therefore, if someone makes such an insane request, I think we can agree that paying taxes on the earnings from signature campaigns is by no means an option for people in my situation.

Given that I live in an extremely corrupt country where in the last 8 years about 30 ministers have been fired or resigned due to corrupt actions, believe me I sleep peacefully when I know that my money did not go into their pockets.

What is that real you need to file a report every time you get paid, here in my country Just the same as zasad@ that you need to fill in a year.
What country do you live in bro? just curious 

and maybe if I were Op I would not going to record any money that comes from the mixer neither from signature or my personal fund since the mixer in my opinion is kinda in a grey area at least for the regulator. so better opt-out.

I understand that tax authorities in different countries are improving tax collection, but I don’t think that everything is so serious that they would waste resources on users who earn about $100 a week. I think that the spent resources of the tax authorities will not pay off. If my tax office required me to report for each payment, then I would receive bitcoins for the subscription campaign to an unofficial address, and then every quarter or year I would transfer bitcoins through an exchange for Monero from the unofficial address to the official one and pay taxes.
But sometimes it is better not to report coins, and you will not be asked questions.

[takuma sato]

You report your taxes, but what do you do if the address that pays you had tainted coins, and once you deposit them on an exchange

Give me the official definition of tainted coins. I'll help you: it doesn't exist. There are several companies trying to sell the idea of taint, but it only exists when you believe it. And I don't believe it.
Most banknotes contain traces of cocaine, and that doesn't matter. Fungibility means all banknotes are equal. The same applies to Bitcoin. And just like banks don't want to take banknotes from criminals, exchanges don't want to take Bitcoins from criminals. If you're not a criminal, you'll be able to prove you legally earned those Bitcoins. And you should be okay.

it activates an alarm next to your dox. Not a great situation to be at.

True, it's annoying having to deal with this.

It doesn't really matter we believe in or not isn't it. What matters is the consequences of having said alarm to get triggered once you deposit your coins into an exchange next to your full name, address and so on. Now you are screwed. This is the problem. One doesn't know who is paying you, where the coins come from. Only coins that come from a regulated exchange or are freshly mined I would consider safe to deposit into an exchange.

If someone pays you and these enable some sort of a trigger when you go into an exchange and deposit them, now you are audited, and have a case. You have to prove you are innocent. The authorities hate people that deal with cryptos by default, and now you have to prove to them that you didn't sell any drugs for them or something, that you just were part of an advertiser campaign and you are just chilling talking on a forum, but the thing is, you don't want to be involved into such situation. You said the phrase *should* be okay. Keyword should. You never know so I would prefer not to.

[zasad@]

Only coins that come from a regulated exchange or are freshly mined I would consider safe to deposit into an exchange.

I will upset you, but you should know that as soon as you transfer even the "whitest coins" to the exchange, it will not save you from exchange blocking.
My buddy transferred 1-2 thousand coins to the exchange from one address, there were no questions from the exchange, but when he transferred 40000 dollars worth of coins, he immediately got blocked.
He lost this money because his address has a lot of transactions, where he can not explain the reasons.
If you decide to take such a step, you should have a wallet where you can give an explanation for each transaction, even if it was several years ago.

[takuma sato]

Only coins that come from a regulated exchange or are freshly mined I would consider safe to deposit into an exchange.

I will upset you, but you should know that as soon as you transfer even the "whitest coins" to the exchange, it will not save you from exchange blocking.
My buddy transferred 1-2 thousand coins to the exchange from one address, there were no questions from the exchange, but when he transferred 40000 dollars worth of coins, he immediately got blocked.
He lost this money because his address has a lot of transactions, where he can not explain the reasons.
If you decide to take such a step, you should have a wallet where you can give an explanation for each transaction, even if it was several years ago.

That's pretty crazy. Was it Coinbase? I've heard Coinbase is insanely strict nowadays, to the point is just nonviable to deposit any coins that don't come from Coinbase itself, as in back and forth from Coinbase into your wallet back to Coinbase is ok, but anything else adds additional steps of complexity that may lock you out of the coins until you deliver some context. But with a lawyer you may find a solution. The real problem here would be with the taxman. Because most people will not be able to explain every satoshi ever on his wallet, so these are the ones that are expert in screwing innocent people up that just obtained some coins here and there along the years, then you want to cash out and they treat you like you are El Chapo or something.