Do we even need bitcoin mixers?

[moneystery]

since the first time i found out about these mixers i kept wondering why this service appeared and even more so since one of the most popular mixers went down. but after seeing how many people were discussing these mixers, i finally understood that mixers were needed by people to be able to mix their transactions so it was very difficult to track. it seems that this service is needed by people who want ease in washing their transactions, because users only need to send their bitcoins to the designated wallet and put their destination wallet and then the mixer will work to mix the transactions.

but the question is, if the transaction is from a clean thing, why is there any need to be afraid? unless the transaction is so dirty that it needs to be covered. so my conclusion is that we don't really need these mixers services, only those who want privacy to cover their transactions need this.

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This is the only alternative I can see for now, but nowadays, it's rare to find a non-KYC exchange. The fully decentralized ones are becoming scarce. DEX tends to be complex and not very user-friendly, which is why some still prefer CEX. I heard that Binance is planning to stop supporting Monero. As for ChangeNow, it appears to operate under a KYC-lite model, requesting documents only in cases of suspicious transactions. What about Kraken, CoinEx, and Changelly?

[NotATether]

The amount of ignorance in this thread is despicable. Did you think only signature campaign users use mixers?

If you want an accurate description of why you (the community) would need a mixer, you should read https://bitmixlist.org. And before you hit the Report button, yes I am allowed to post my resource on Bitcointalk.

The relevant section:

Why Bitcoin Mixers Are Necessary

It’s Much Easier To Create A Website Than A Wallet
Firstly, when I say wallet, I mean wallet software. Wasabi and Samourai in their current form, used up a lot of R&D before their developers made them. Developers have put years of research into these wallets so they can have the best and latest privacy features. From 2015 up to now, there have only been three bitcoin wallets with CoinJoin. Compare that with about ten times as many bitcoin mixers during that timeline. Additional mixers and CoinJoin wallets ensure decentralization of privacy.

Exchanges Might Block Coordinator Deposits
Remember how I said there are only three coinjoin wallets? That makes it easy for exchanges such as Binance to block their destination addresses. This is despite the fact that they are not bitcoin mixers and are just privacy technologies. The rate of the number of mixers appearing will overwhelm some exchanges, who won’t have time to identify their addresses as a result. I know some people who sent mixed coins to an exchange without any issue. But obviously not all mixers are treated equally, so do your research.

Countries Could Censor Coordinators
If you live in a censorship-heavy country, chances are that all of the CoinJoin wallets are blocked by domain and IP addresses. Normally in this case, you would download Tor Browser. But if their website is not accessible too, then you’ll need to look for a bitcoin mixer that is available.

Ease Of Use
This is not a strong reason since CoinJoins are just as easy to use in Wasabi and Samourai wallets. However, there’s no software you have to install in order to use a mixer. This means you can send the mixed coins to any wallet, while saving on transaction fees needed to sweep your coins otherwise.

Other Reasons Why You Might Use A Bitcoin Mixer
But sometimes, you need to mix some bitcoin quickly, maybe you don’t trust the person who gave you the coins. Maybe you are taking a stand against “blockchain taint”. Or maybe you are an activist or some other kind of person who police unfairly go after. Or perhaps you are just an ordinary person who is not savvy in bitcoin. All in all, if you find the wallet interfaces too clunky,

Here is a very good thread from 2014 which explains why people should use mixers, and look one up on a bitcoin mixer list to protect themselves. This is especially true for people who keep their coins on an exchange. By the way, recent events must have shown you that’s not a safe place to keep them in the first place.

The TL;DR of this TL;DR is that mixers help keep the privacy solutions available decentralized. Would you like for all mixers to close, so that the feds can start criminalizing CoinJoin wallets and Monero instead?

[BlackHatCoiner]

I asked that why do we need bitcoin mixers, if there is Monero. We can change BTC to XMR and vica versa on no-KYC exchanges, and make an XMR to XMR transaction between the changes.

From my experience, when using a mixer, just as with coinjoining, you want from the observers to know you're mixing. Swapping BTC for XMR and XMR for BTC obviously provides better levels of privacy if used properly, but the outputs do not look as if they're private (from a blockchain perspective).

The next level of a fungible currency is for the coins to look the same, not only from the users to treat it likewise. For example, in whirlpool you cannot distinguish which coins comes from which user. Or, you can simply swap BTC for XMR and just stay there, which is completely fungible for obvious reasons.

[Solosanz]

As I see it, there are non-KYC services where you can change BTC to XMR or XMR to BTC.
According to my research, e.g. changenow.io seems a KYC exchange, but they don't ask your documents, only in case of suspicious transactions. Or do you know surely non-KYC echanges with BTC <-> XMR change possibility?

Decentralized exchange: Bisq
Instant swap: exch.cx

You need to read the terms of service too, some exchange even though not asking KYC but they're combating against illegal funds, but if it just for protecting privacy, it's fine.

[Z-tight]

This is the only alternative I can see for now, but nowadays, it's rare to find a non-KYC exchange. The fully decentralized ones are becoming scarce.

I know decentralization is now like a buzzword and there are many exchanges that portray themselves as being decentralized, but they actually are not, but then you still have enough options if you are looking for p2p exchanges, you can find them here:
https://kycnot.me/?type=exchange

but the question is, if the transaction is from a clean thing, why is there any need to be afraid? unless the transaction is so dirty that it needs to be covered. so my conclusion is that we don't really need these mixers services, only those who want privacy to cover their transactions need this.

People need privacy for many reasons, it is ridiculous to question why people want privacy. Dirty or clean coins is nothing but an attack on the fungibility of BTC, and that is why the government and centralized services label BTC in that way, all BTC's are the same. Needless to say that mixers and privacy tools are very important in the BTC network, and you must not have something to hide before you use them.

[amishmanish]

It is funny how times change. At one point, mixers were celebrated as the harbingers of liberty and privacy on the forum. Yet, the way that they started to be used  to obfuscate the origin of a Bitcoin has led that to change completely. The origins need to be obfuscated so if ill-gotten/ hacked BTC is to be cashed out, you eventually need to go for a CEX which will probably need KYC.

With the ban, i suppose there is little to support that cause anymore.

Mixers would have been a good idea in a world where you only used it to hide your tracks for the sake of privacy. Yet, i think few people do it to keep it that way. On top of that, if one really wants to maintain anonymity, it can still be done if you do P2P transactions/ trading only.

As far as the question that whether we need bitcoin mixers, i think those who use them will continue to use them. Its just sensible for the forum to stop association with them because of the nuisance the criminals create with them.

[BlackHatCoiner]

At one point, mixers were celebrated as the harbingers of liberty and privacy on the forum.

At that point, we didn't have tested, decentralized privacy tools in our disposal. Using a mixer was the easiest and sort of most reputable manner to receive fungible coins. It no longer is. Decentralized tools like Bisq, Monero, or self-custodial coinjoin software like whirlpool, are developed and used every day.

The origins need to be obfuscated so if ill-gotten/ hacked BTC is to be cashed out, you eventually need to go for a CEX which will probably need KYC.

If you really need to go through a CEX, you can still retain your privacy without buying taint. Just convert them to XMR (via Bisq) and sell the XMR.

[franky1]

The amount of ignorance in this thread is despicable. Did you think only signature campaign users use mixers?

If you want an accurate description of why you (the community) would need a mixer, you should read https://bitmixlist.org. And before you hit the Report button, yes I am allowed to post my resource on Bitcointalk.

The relevant section:

Why Bitcoin Mixers Are Necessary

Other Reasons Why You Might Use A Bitcoin Mixer
But sometimes, you need to mix some bitcoin quickly, maybe you don’t trust the person who gave you the coins. Maybe you are taking a stand against “blockchain taint”. Or maybe you are an activist or some other kind of person who police unfairly go after. Or perhaps you are just an ordinary person who is not savvy in bitcoin. All in all, if you find the wallet interfaces too clunky,

so you dont trust the person who gave you coins
so you want to avoid taint

so you then decide you will use a mixer to get coins from someone you dont know nor trust when using a mixer
so you then decide you will use a mixer to get yourself tagged as a higher threshold worth monitoring further, thus they get more involved in looking at the taint(history) of the inflows and the spending path of the outflows

maybe you need another year to work out that mixers do the opposite of your intentions

[BIT-BENDER]

Well as for me I don't think I would be using a mixer for now, or maybe I have not just gotten the need to use a mixer and this doesn't criminalize those who makes use of mixer.
The main aim of using a Crypto-currency mixer is to achieve anonymity in your Bitcoin transaction yes the level of anonymity is high but it's to high for me and it's unnecessary, I already have the level of anonymity I need on Bitcoin and for now I see no reason using a mixer just yet, maybe cause I am still broke. Lol

[pinggoki]

I don't think that need is the right word though, to me it feels like mixers are something that should exist not out of necessity but because it can exist, that's how I see them. Mixers are so privacy oriented that it's being abused by criminals to launder their money or to evade their taxes which is the reason why authorities are on the hunt for these services that caters to these criminals, it just so happens that this forum doesn't want to be complicit in the promotion of this service so they chose the hard way which is to ban the advertisement of this altogether even the recommendation of one is not tolerated. I'm weirded from what I'm reading right now, I don't exactly know who's who but there's some names in the thread that's promoting mixers before and at the same time have talked about the use of it in a positive and has gone now at criticizing the use of it like their trying to wash their hands of the dirt that mixers have left behind.

[NotATether]

so you then decide you will use a mixer to get coins from someone you dont know nor trust when using a mixer
so you then decide you will use a mixer to get yourself tagged as a higher threshold worth monitoring further, thus they get more involved in looking at the taint(history) of the inflows and the spending path of the outflows

You already get yourself tagged as a higher threshold when you use any kind of on-chain obfuscation or swapping with XMR.

You might as well require everyone submit their ID papers before they can create a bitcoin address.

[SamReomo]

The ones who use the mixers already know that they can do what OP shared with us in this thread but still they prefer to use mixers. The mixers have some extra perks and they can reduce someone's precious time and the reliable ones never run with your money.

The exchanges especially decentralized exchanges can't be trusted because they can be rug-pull schemes. I have seen many decentralized exchanges that scammed their users and took a rug-pull type of exit. That's another reason to not trust the decentralized exchanges.

The game is totally different with centralized exchanges as they are already connected with the governmental organizations and as soon as they receive a suspicious transaction, they will freeze the accounts that receive such transactions.

If your coins are clean then you may not need to fear anyways but if you bought coins from someone whom you don't know then you can still face some problems if those coins come from a suspected address. The mixers solve issues for such innocent people who buy coins from unknown people and may otherwise get strong actions against them just for the purchase.

I believe that's another reason which is stopping people to invest in Bitcoin because the big investors might fear that if the coins that they have bought somehow come from a tagged address then they might face legal issues in future. That's why they prefer to use mixers to be safe from such legal issues.

[BlackHatCoiner]

The exchanges especially decentralized exchanges can't be trusted because they can be rug-pull schemes. I have seen many decentralized exchanges that scammed their users and took a rug-pull type of exit. That's another reason to not trust the decentralized exchanges.

Then they weren't truly decentralized. If you're referring to the well-known DeFi, 99.9% of it is not decentralized; it is not even exchange. It is just a manner to use blockchain, so you can call your activity "decentralized", where it's just you who makes up the rules.

If you want to make use of a truly decentralized exchange, check out Bisq. It runs for years and is as decentralized as it gets with the operation of a DAO: https://bisq.wiki/Main_Page.

[Z-tight]

and the reliable ones never run with your money.

All mixers start off as being 'reliable', mixers are good but you must understand that you lose custody of your coins when you use them, so if a mixer suddenly stops being 'reliable' as we've seen it happen often, there is a chance you may lose your coins. This is why people prefer self custodial privacy solutions like CoinJoin implementations.

The exchanges especially decentralized exchanges can't be trusted because they can be rug-pull schemes. I have seen many decentralized exchanges that scammed their users and took a rug-pull type of exit. That's another reason to not trust the decentralized exchanges.

Can you name a few? True p2p exchanges do not hold the funds of their customers', so there is no way for them to rug-pull them. Take note that you don't 'trust' true decentralized exchanges, it is trustless, just like BTC. Because all they do is connect you to your trading peer, you don't have to 'trust' them with your data or your funds.

[0t3p0t]

I see your point of view and you are right, I totally agree. But your answer has nothing to do with the original question.
I asked that why do we need bitcoin mixers, if there is Monero. We can change BTC to XMR and vica versa on no-KYC exchanges, and make an XMR to XMR transaction between the changes. This is a theoretical question.

It could be that users of Bitcoin mixers wanted a much more convenient way of changing the image of their Bitcoin holdings instead of using the tricky BTC-XMR-BTC way or they are just making sure things will work accurate or else their funds will be compromised most specially if it was from a "dirty money".

[Synchronice]

Now, that the mixers are banned from this forum, I wonder, why do we even need BTC mixers.

If you need mixer, you need mixer. The fact that forum banned it doesn't decide whether you need to use it or not.

1. If you have bitcoin which is connected to you and you want an untraceable one, you should:

Bitcoin is getting very decentralized. There you have blockchain analysis firms that can't even detect accurately whether your coins are clean or dirty, so, they can claim your coins dirty any time and you'll be forced to submit KYC documents, then they'll apologize by saying that it was a false positive. To be honest, I believe that over time blockchain analysis companies will improve their capabilities and accuracy. If you want to leave no traces, use just Monero, nothing else.

[franky1]

so you then decide you will use a mixer to get coins from someone you dont know nor trust when using a mixer
so you then decide you will use a mixer to get yourself tagged as a higher threshold worth monitoring further, thus they get more involved in looking at the taint(history) of the inflows and the spending path of the outflows

You already get yourself tagged as a higher threshold when you use any kind of on-chain obfuscation or swapping with XMR.

You might as well require everyone submit their ID papers before they can create a bitcoin address.

i been here 12 years, never used a mixer. ive moved coins alot. even in exchanges, i have a healthy stash of coins (not my vanity address) .. dare you to find my stash

[SamReomo]

If you want to make use of a truly decentralized exchange, check out Bisq. It runs for years and is as decentralized as it gets with the operation of a DAO: https://bisq.wiki/Main_Page.

Without any doubt Bisq is the only decentralized exchange that we can call truly decentralized. I would consider it as a P2P decentralized exchange rather than a decentralized exchange simply. The Bisq is surely a safe and trusted option that works like a charm for everyone. I would never say anyone to avoid a decentralized exchange Bisq but other decentralized exchanges aren't that safe as we consider them.

Can you name a few? True p2p exchanges do not hold the funds of their customers', so there is no way for them to rug-pull them.

I think one of those rug-pull decentralized exchanges is Swaprum’s that did a rug-pull exist and stole funds of the users. They did that by adding a backdoor function which allowed them to steal the funds from the LP of the users.

You may read this article to know further about their rug-pull exit scam.

Another rug-pull scam from a decentralized exchange was done by Merlin Dex, they also stole the funds of the users.

[GeorgeJohn]

If mixers is been ban in the forum that doesn't necessarily mean that you can not make use of mixers if you wishes to make use mixers, the reason while all the mixers in bitcointalk are there before theymos ban them is to create awareness of their platforms and we have a different mixers that is in existence and I believe if you want make use of mixers you can visit their site and make your exchange that is untraceable with them.