Do we even need bitcoin mixers?

[FinneysTrueVision]

DeFi exchanges, as you call them, don’t take custody of user’s funds

Can you prove it? From my experience with DeFi, the software is closed-source. You can export private keys and the like, but you can't know with certainty if another entity holds your keys as well. And in my opinion, if another entity holds my keys, it isn't self-custodial, regardless of what I do.

Uniswap which is the biggest DEX, and the one which most other DEXs base their code on has been open source from the beginning. Starting from V3, their code was released under a business source license which meant it can be reviewed but not copied for commercial use until after 2 years when it becomes open source.

Nobody holds the keys to your wallet but you do have to give permission for smart contracts to pull a specified amount of funds from your wallet. By default the limit is usually set to allow an infinite amount of funds that can be used by a specific contract. If the contract is immutable and developers renounced ownership, which can be done by setting the owner to a burn address, then there is very minimal risk of getting rugpulled.

[dkbit98]

I think we need to have as much tools as possible to achieve better privacy with bitcoin transactions.
Using something decentralized would be ideal, but most centralized exchanges already acted similar like mixers for years.
People who use centralized exchanges, don't use mixers, say they dont have anything to hide, and say they care about privacy are nothing more than hypocrites. 

Whoever keeps millions on a centralized exchange is an idiot, period.

All big traders are holding coins on centralized exchanges, and if you didn't notice Coinbase exchange is custodian for most Bitcoin ETF's so far 
https://blockworks.co/bitcoin-etf

[NeuroticFish]

I think we need to have as much tools as possible to achieve better privacy with bitcoin transactions.

Completely agreed.

Whoever keeps millions on a centralized exchange is an idiot, period.

All big traders are holding coins on centralized exchanges, and if you didn't notice Coinbase exchange is custodian for most Bitcoin ETF's so far 
https://blockworks.co/bitcoin-etf

 
Coinbase is probably acting already like a bank. And businesses keep billions at banks. I hope that Coinbase are not idiots and have those coins in cold storage and also insured.

Of course, examplens is also 99% correct. Most exchanges cannot be trusted (I would not trust Coinbase either, but that's me). For us, here on Bitcointalk, self custody is the best option. For the big companies there's no difference they keep their wealth in a bank or at Coinbase.

[nakamura12]

For some people, they do need bitcoin mixers to have a privacy when transferring funds but as you can see that many bitcoin mixers are taken down by the FBI because using bitcoin mixers is already an act of money laundering if you talk about the law even though your aim of using it is to have a privacy in the first place. Anyway, about the situation where you exchange your btc to xmr and then xmr to btc is not applicable in my opinion for small amount of funds since you have to pay a fee everytime you exchange a crypto in an exchange. I have tried it myself and the value I got at the end is not the same value as I have it before and there's also the spread of buy and sell price.

I think we need to have as much tools as possible to achieve better privacy with bitcoin transactions.

Completely agreed.

I second the motion.

[Upgrade00]

Whoever keeps millions on a centralized exchange is an idiot, period.

All big traders are holding coins on centralized exchanges, and if you didn't notice Coinbase exchange is custodian for most Bitcoin ETF's so far 

It has been proven time and again that keeping significant amounts of money on centralized exchanges is not safe, no matter how reputable that exchange is. Trading has always been the most speculative topic in this regards cause decentralized platforms don't offer the liquidity required and traders wisely cannot keep withdrawing and then depositing back when they want to trade.

So, I can understand why one would want to keep funds there, but would still advice against it.

[The Cryptovator]

To be honest, I don't see reasons for me to mix my Bitcoin. That doesn't mean I don't care about my privacy. Of course, I am concerned about my privacy, but how will others know about my holdings? Let's say I withdraw from Binance to my BTC address. So they know who owns this bitcoin. What makes that risky for me?

just a few examples
Your government can ask for insight in order to collect taxes.
Some insiders can sell your information to bad people from your environment, so if you have a significant amount, it can create a lot of inconvenience in life. If you were to sell the house and get cash, you certainly wouldn't feel safe if everyone around you knew you had xx amount in your hands.

I can understand, but let's be honest. Do we have the best place to trade crypto without providing your identification documents? There are a few decentralised exchanges, but they are not very popular. So most people have been using centralised exchanges, and funds have been traced. We can simply cut the transaction by doing a P2P trade. It's not necessary to depend on mixers alone. Exchange can trace only where you withdraw, but they don't know actually who owned the address. Just use multiple addresses and cut the transaction history. 

[panganib999]

There are alternatives for people who prefer to keep their privacy intact. The use of Bitcoin mixers is not the only way for a user to stay private. Having said this I think we really don't need Bitcoin mixers. We need ways to provide us privacy but Bitcoin mixers don't have the monopoly of this kind of service. The example given in the OP also provides privacy. CoinJoin also provides privacy in a manner that is legally acceptable. During these times when mixers are perceived negatively, there remains other ways to achieve what one can achieve with mixers.

Between mixers and airgapping a perfectly usable device to act as you wallet, mixing your cryptocurrencies is definitely going to be the more appealing option.

You have to consider the fact that the reason why mixing is so prevalent even after getting some leering eyes from the international global scene, is because it's the most convenient way out there to secure your cryptocurrencies, and to protect your identity. Sure, converting your bitcoins/crypto to monero's an equally appealing ordeal but the concept is not explored to its fullest capacity just yet, forcing people into instead following what the norm is, which is mixing. Airgapping and other forms of cryptocurrency anonymity tactics are cumbersome as well in the face of completely obscuring your footsteps with the single press of a button. Which is why at the end of the day, mixing will remain existent even though we don't technically need them anymore.

[fuguebtc]

In addition, if owning a large amount of assets is very dangerous for us . So, people with assets up to tens of millions of dollars, billions of dollars still trade on those centralized exchanges. Are they in danger and are they unaware of those dangers? I mean it could still happen but it wouldn't be as severe as you describe.

Whoever keeps millions on a centralized exchange is an idiot, period.

I'm not talking about whether they store their bitcoins on centralized exchanges or not . What I just want to say is that there are many sharks with millions of dollars still using centralized exchanges as a place for trading and liquidity because we all know that only centralized exchanges provide such massive liquidity to the market. And when we use centralized exchanges, it doesn't always put us in danger just because some people know we own bitcoin . I understand that we will definitely lose privacy when using centralized exchanges but there will be no danger like you are mentioning .

Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating or encouraging people to use centralized exchanges because it is everyone's choice but there is not too much danger when using them properly.

[Nrcewker]

The idea that you gave looks really interesting and easy, but we are forgetting about the conversion fees and the transaction fees. If someone wants his Bitcoins instantly, then definitely he will have to go through a long process, and has to speed up the transaction in order to get his coins. Moreover it’s also very difficult to find a trustworthy non-KYC exchange. As all the reputable exchanges ask for KYC now, hence we have to do again a lot of hardwork. We need to find other good alternatives according to me.

[8rch7]

I can understand, but let's be honest. Do we have the best place to trade crypto without providing your identification documents? There are a few decentralised exchanges, but they are not very popular. So most people have been using centralised exchanges, and funds have been traced. We can simply cut the transaction by doing a P2P trade. It's not necessary to depend on mixers alone. Exchange can trace only where you withdraw, but they don't know actually who owned the address. Just use multiple addresses and cut the transaction history. 

Right now difficult to trade cryptocurrency without providing identification documents except with dapp exchange market such as Uniswap, Pancakeswap and many kinds of dapp exchange. However when using dapp exchange always needed CEX exchange for withdrawing cryptocurrency fund to fiat or cash money trough the bank, use third party but difficult to get which one trusted seller want to buy or cryptocurrency assets and has lower fees transaction such as selling trough P2P on CEX exchange market.

For market exchange easily to trace which one our assets come from, have regulation for all top exchange required identification documents and difficult to get trusted CEX exchange with much volume transaction without required KYC, just small exchange have loer volume transaction and limited amount for withdrawing in daily day.

[Kruw]

If everyone uses bitcoin to avoid taxes , what would the country be like without taxes?

It would be a free country.

There are alternatives for people who prefer to keep their privacy intact. The use of Bitcoin mixers is not the only way for a user to stay private. Having said this I think we really don't need Bitcoin mixers. We need ways to provide us privacy but Bitcoin mixers don't have the monopoly of this kind of service. The example given in the OP also provides privacy. CoinJoin also provides privacy in a manner that is legally acceptable. During these times when mixers are perceived negatively, there remains other ways to achieve what one can achieve with mixers.

Between mixers and airgapping a perfectly usable device to act as you wallet, mixing your cryptocurrencies is definitely going to be the more appealing option.

How is mixing a more appealing option than coinjoining?  Mixing sites take custody of your Bitcoins and are trusted with your transaction history, but coinjoins are completely non custodial and do not leak data to any trusted third parties.

[bigvilley]

You bring up some good points about using non-KYC exchanges to swap BTC for XMR and back for privacy. It’s true that this method can work well for making your transactions more anonymous. However, it does require a bit more time and effort, and there’s always the risk of the exchange flagging your transaction, especially if you’re using a KYC platform.

In my experience, using a service like /_/kariane-shanahan]Yomix Bitcoin Mixer was much simpler and quicker for achieving the same goal. It was straightforward and effective, allowing me to get untraceable Bitcoin without having to jump through too many hoops.

[OgNasty]

I am not in favor of mixers, predicted their demise here, and laughed at the clowns who were defending them for a paycheck. That being said, mixers can’t be replaced with non-KYC exchanges. The thing about non-KYC exchanges is that when they get enough user funds, they turn into KYC exchanges and then steal everyone’s money. If this hasn’t happened to you yet, it will if you keep using them.

[mindrust]

I am not in favor of mixers, predicted their demise here, and laughed at the clowns who were defending them for a paycheck. That being said, mixers can’t be replaced with non-KYC exchanges. The thing about non-KYC exchanges is that when they get enough user funds, they turn into KYC exchanges and then steal everyone’s money. If this hasn’t happened to you yet, it will if you keep using them.

Getting weekly fat pay checks from mixers clouded some users judgement. I noticed that too but me being right wasn't going to change anything so I didn't say it too often (I think i did it once or twice at least though) and I didn't have to. It would only upset the people who were carrying the mixer signatures even more.

Those mixing services were centralized and nobody knew what data they were logging. It could be anything. As far as I know none of them were open source even if they were, it still wouldn't make any sense to use them because you still wouldn't know the actual code they were running on their servers. To function, they needed other people's coins so them being open source wouldn't make any difference.

If you need privacy, use monero. Bitcoin mixing services never made any sense to begin with. I guess it is all resolved now. I don't think anybody would argue otherwise because nobody is getting paid by any mixers around here anymore

That said, if you go to shitcointalk forum and keep talking the same stuff, they will pitchfork you. How dare you say that to our employers! Heretic.

-Mixers are fiiinee privacy privacy come and buy some privacy buy 2 and get 1 free privacy I'mma sellin the best privacy special offer-

Now when you think about it, theymos actually improved the forum by banning the mixers as they probably weren’t really providing any real privacy. (At least we had no chance to know it for sure)

[m2017]

I am not in favor of mixers, predicted their demise here, and laughed at the clowns who were defending them for a paycheck. That being said, mixers can’t be replaced with non-KYC exchanges. The thing about non-KYC exchanges is that when they get enough user funds, they turn into KYC exchanges and then steal everyone’s money. If this hasn’t happened to you yet, it will if you keep using them.

Well, then what solution can be devised to satisfy the privacy rights of bitcoin users? Mixers were a "good" tool.

Forum users always "defend" various service providers with paycheck, be it mixers or casinos, but one can't but agree that mixers are necessary for the BTC-community. You know, I would not refuse a function offering a choice of "public transactions" and "private transactions" in the BTC-network, so that everyone could choose which to use, although I realize that a publicly accessible blockchain is a "feature" of bitcoin.

There is nothing to discuss about exchanges with KYCs. Nothing can be more harmful for the BTC-community, but these exchanges have already won.

[FinneysTrueVision]

Getting weekly fat pay checks from mixers clouded some users judgement. I noticed that too but me being right wasn't going to change anything so I didn't say it too often (I think i did it once or twice at least though) and I didn't have to. It would only upset the people who were carrying the mixer signatures even more.

Those mixing services were centralized and nobody knew what data they were logging. It could be anything. As far as I know none of them were open source even if they were, it still wouldn't make any sense to use them because you still wouldn't know the actual code they were running on their servers. To function, they needed other people's coins so them being open source wouldn't make any difference.

Even the mixers that moved to the altcoin forum, some of them turned out to be a scam and some of them disappeared without any notice. There have been some very obvious red flags with some of these mixers but due to users’ sensitivities it has been a subject that is almost impossible to discuss in good faith. Even the mildest criticism is enough to get people enraged and making accusations against you.

[icalical]

Due to the fact that they make it possible for people to send huge quantities of Bitcoin very fast and simply, mixers are still necessary in a few ways. During 2020, more than $1.6 billion worth of Bitcoin passed through mixers which shows the role they play. Even though non-KYC exchanges may seem safer, these platforms also carry a lot of danger. Centralized platforms can be hacked or forced into compliance by government, therefore they are prone to hacking and regulatory pressure. For instance, in 2021, Bitmart (a non-KYC exchange) was hacked leading to loss of $150 million. In contrast, there is no single point of failure in mixers.

Moreover, changenow.io claims not needing KYC services; however, this is not always true since suspicious activity could lead them wanting your information at a later date. This way, bitcoin mixers offer you the simplest method to remain anonymous without having to worry about these dangers behind them.

[kro55]

Getting weekly fat pay checks from mixers clouded some users judgement. I noticed that too but me being right wasn't going to change anything so I didn't say it too often (I think i did it once or twice at least though) and I didn't have to. It would only upset the people who were carrying the mixer signatures even more.

Those mixing services were centralized and nobody knew what data they were logging. It could be anything. As far as I know none of them were open source even if they were, it still wouldn't make any sense to use them because you still wouldn't know the actual code they were running on their servers. To function, they needed other people's coins so them being open source wouldn't make any difference.

Even the mixers that moved to the altcoin forum, some of them turned out to be a scam and some of them disappeared without any notice. There have been some very obvious red flags with some of these mixers but due to users’ sensitivities it has been a subject that is almost impossible to discuss in good faith. Even the mildest criticism is enough to get people enraged and making accusations against you.

Even governments and banks can go bankrupt or scam you, so it's no surprise that some mixer services are scams. Everything is run by people and for business purposes so anything can happen.

I am not for or against bitcoin mixers but we cannot claim that all are scams or not worth using just because some projects are scams, there are still reputable projects.

But I agree with you, mixer topics are difficult to discuss in a friendly and fair manner, we are vulnerable to attack if we express opposing views to those who are wearing the signature of a mixer signature campaign. That is understandable because their income is generated from there and they would not be comfortable if their source of income was threatened. If we were in their shoes, we would do the same.

[examplens]

I am not in favor of mixers, predicted their demise here, and laughed at the clowns who were defending them for a paycheck. That being said, mixers can’t be replaced with non-KYC exchanges. The thing about non-KYC exchanges is that when they get enough user funds, they turn into KYC exchanges and then steal everyone’s money. If this hasn’t happened to you yet, it will if you keep using them.

What is the alternative?
Any service at some point when it gathers enough users can turn into a scam. What is the suggestion to avoid this scenario?
we assume that p2p cannot be a solution for all cases.

[2Pizza410000BTC]

Mixing sites have been promoted on this forum for a long time but I have never used them. I know how they work but I haven't needed to use them. And now mixing platforms have been banned by Theymos due to many illegal activities being done in them. So I'm not encouraged to use the mixer platform. these platforms are useful for those who want to make large transactions secretly but not important for users like me.

It's true that mixer platform is not much needed for us because we haven't mixed anything from mixer platform so far, not sure if we will in future but those who do big transactions can use mixer platform. But if mixer platform is approved in bitcoin forum then it will be a little benefit for us that mixer campaign will be running in this forum so people can work on mixer campaign there and earn money. In past days we have seen mixer campaign forum approval so signature campaign was constantly coming and people could participate in it and earn money. I hope mixer approval in forum.