Bitcoin ETF

[hZti]

Yesterday several Bitcoin ETF launched in the US and had a trading volume of 4.6 billion USD. I think we can all see that this is market changing volume since people that traded the Bitcoin ETF are probably not yet invested in Bitcoin. Interestingly the huge volume was not represented on popular bitcoin exchanges, which made me wonder where the bitcoins are actually being both/sold. Does somebody has information about that topic?
Do you think that overnight/weekend gaps from the ETF are potential trading opportunities? In my mind there should be huge gaps, if for example the bitcoin price changes a lot over the weekend.

[OmegaStarScream]

From my understanding and from what I have seen on the ETF commercials, you should be able to buy them and sell them on the popular stock exchange apps. I did read however that Vanguard[1] and another company decided to block these transactions.

[1] https://blockworks.co/news/vanguard-disallows-bitcoin-etf-trading

[Oshosondy]

Interestingly the huge volume was not represented on popular bitcoin exchanges, which made me wonder where the bitcoins are actually being both/sold.

They are buying the token that tracks the bitcoin price and not bitcoin itself, although the token provider bought bitcoin and pegged the token to bitcoin spot price. All those companies that provide the ETF have bought bitcoin in the past and bitcoin price increased at the time. But bitcoin ETF token itself has no effect on bitcoin price unless those bitcoin spot ETF provider buy more bitcoin for storage and this would be if more people are buying the ETF token. Only what we are expecting now is halving sentimental effect.

[Lakai01]

[...]
which made me wonder where the bitcoins are actually being both/sold. Does somebody has information about that topic?

The institutions behind the ETFs already had to have a certain amount of BTC before approval, so the purchases of BTC happened some time ago and were therefore already priced in. This is also one of the reasons why the +20% predicted by some crypto influencers did not materialize.

Further purchases will also not take place via traditional exchanges such as Binance and co. but OTC, which is what Binance and co. offer for institutional clients.

[hZti]

I have read a lot about the ETF and how it works. Some people claim that it is not allowed for an ETF to simply sell already existing stocks/bitcoins. In general this also seems also like a pretty bad idea, since the ETF profit for the bank is pretty slim. They only get a small management fee and maybe the spreads. If they hold large quantities of bitcoin that profit would be gone in seconds if bitcoin moves in the wrong direction. So I dont see why the would go trough the hassle of creating a Bitcoin ETF if the profit would come form a Bitcoin investment.
Are there any sources that proof that the institutional investors really already hold relevant amounts of bitcoins?

[bettercrypto]

[...]
which made me wonder where the bitcoins are actually being both/sold. Does somebody has information about that topic?

The institutions behind the ETFs already had to have a certain amount of BTC before approval, so the purchases of BTC happened some time ago and were therefore already priced in. This is also one of the reasons why the +20% predicted by some crypto influencers did not materialize.

Further purchases will also not take place via traditional exchanges such as Binance and co. but OTC, which is what Binance and co. offer for institutional clients.

But it doesn't seem like that's what I saw in that regard, especially with the approved companies in the bitcoin spot. Is it like they haven't prepared how much allocation they will allocate for their purchase of bitcoin?

It's just that they don't seem to be buying Bitcoin all at once to hold it. Although the other institutional investors are already buying and selling Bitcoin using the stocks they are used to,.

[Bushdark]

Bitcoin ETF is just like tradinh fake Bitcoin. This does not have any effect on the market and that is what many people that had been agitating on the approval of the Bitcoin ETF do not know. These people are not even interested in sending the price of Bitcoin to the moon because they are not literally trading the real Bitcoin. This is just a reflection and not real to the market.
I know many investors would soon know this and understand the concept of Bitcoin ETF in the market.

[mindrust]

It looks like Bitcoin ETF was just another hype on the hype-train and it was priced in way way earlier but people didn't notice it. They expected a bull run to $100k... which hasn't happened yet... a bull run to $100k may still happen but it probably won't be triggered by the ETF. The next halving is a better bet now. Remember BAKKT was yuuge too but once it happened, nothing has happened. Nowadays nobody even remembers wtf BAKKT was. Seriously wtf was it about again?

[logfiles]

Yesterday several Bitcoin ETF launched in the US and had a trading volume of 4.6 billion USD. I think we can all see that this is market changing volume since people that traded the Bitcoin ETF are probably not yet invested in Bitcoin. Interestingly the huge volume was not represented on popular bitcoin exchanges,

More huge trade volumes reported today. I think North of $7Billion since the trading of ETFs started but no upward price movement for Bitcoin, instead we are just seen a downtrend which.

which made me wonder where the bitcoins are actually being both/sold.

The ETFs are trading on exchanges like Nasdaq, NYSE Arca... Please bear in mind that what is being trade are not actual Bitcoins.

The excitement was mostly about "adoption" where people thought now that these companies reorganize Bitcoin, it would mean that more investors would get more exposure to Bitcoin.

[MusaMohamed]

Yesterday several Bitcoin ETF launched in the US and had a trading volume of 4.6 billion USD. I think we can all see that this is market changing volume since people that traded the Bitcoin ETF are probably not yet invested in Bitcoin.

Those companies that were approved to launch their Bitcoin Spot ETFs have to use money to buy bitcoin. Their Bitcoin Spot ETF shares will be launched with bitcoin as an asset to back those shares. They can not launch shares without buying bitcoins.

This will increase demand on Bitcoin because Bitcoin Spot ETFs will give institutional investors which don't want to store bitcoin self custodial to buy Bitcoin Spot ETF shares and cause big new capital to Bitcoin market.

Effects will need time to be seen and it's hard to see great effects after one or just a few days. Like QEs, inflation, we only can see effects after a few months or years.

[hZti]

They can not launch shares without buying bitcoins.

I don`t think that this is true! There is not a single proof that any ETF provider bought bitcoins before the ETF was launched.

If the would buy bitcoins before the ETF is launched they will essentially go long on bitcoin. This would mean that they are exposed to a very large risk.
Also what happens when they run out of bitcoins:
Will they buy again a very large sum until they run out?
Will they then buy everyday?

Also what nobody talks about is a bear market. Will they again store the bitcoin and not sell them into the market?

[slaman29]

Lol at everyone who said ETF was gonna push BTC to the moon. Yes it will at leat in the short term they said.

What's funny is the fake news pushed it much higher than the actual real news. So you know the hackers are totally the same people manipulating price at exchange.

What's funnier is despite $4B volume on Day 1 trading, price is going all the way to 42k. ETF is for gamblers, not Bitcoin users.

[logfiles]

I don`t think that this is true! There is not a single proof that any ETF provider bought bitcoins before the ETF was launched.

Mate, what they say is actually true

In a Spot, Bitcoin ETF invests directly into Bitcoins, meaning they must have bought bitcoins at one point before they filed and got approved by SEC. Do you think SEC would go that low into approving an ETF the Government still hates, minus following the actual rules to the book? I don't think so.

Maybe you are confusing Spot ETFs with derivative based ETFs or futures contracts.

If the would buy bitcoins before the ETF is launched they will essentially go long on bitcoin. This would mean that they are exposed to a very large risk.

But look how far the Bitcoin price has come, don't you think part of it is the effect of these companies buying Bitcoins?

The first spot Bitcoin ETF was applied for a long time ago

Also what happens when they run out of bitcoins:
Will they buy again a very large sum until they run out?
Will they then buy everyday?

What happens when an exchange "runs" out of Bitcoins to sell?  
Price spikes!
There is always someone willing to sell at a higher price. That's how the market works. Exchanges don't run out of assets to sell, it's a game between the buyers and sellers. It's all about demand and supply.

[Mr. Magkaisa]

Yesterday several Bitcoin ETF launched in the US and had a trading volume of 4.6 billion USD. I think we can all see that this is market changing volume since people that traded the Bitcoin ETF are probably not yet invested in Bitcoin.

Those companies that were approved to launch their Bitcoin Spot ETFs have to use money to buy bitcoin. Their Bitcoin Spot ETF shares will be launched with bitcoin as an asset to back those shares. They can not launch shares without buying bitcoins.

This will increase demand on Bitcoin because Bitcoin Spot ETFs will give institutional investors which don't want to store bitcoin self custodial to buy Bitcoin Spot ETF shares and cause big new capital to Bitcoin market.

Effects will need time to be seen and it's hard to see great effects after one or just a few days. Like QEs, inflation, we only can see effects after a few months or years.

    -     This is what you said, right? That's why they were approved to give them permission to buy bitcoin and hold it according to the allocation they want to allocate for it. Others thought that when there was approval, the price of Bitcoin would automatically kick in.

Apparently, their excitement was immediately preceded by the SEC's approval of the spot ETF, so when the current approval came, it didn't have much of an impact; they had already exhausted their excitement. But it will take a few months before we feel the impact of the SEC approval on them.

[EL MOHA]

Lol at everyone who said ETF was gonna push BTC to the moon. Yes it will at leat in the short term they said.

What's funny is the fake news pushed it much higher than the actual real news. So you know the hackers are totally the same people manipulating price at exchange.

What's funnier is despite $4B volume on Day 1 trading, price is going all the way to 42k. ETF is for gamblers, not Bitcoin users.

The thing is this anticipation of getting will definitely have an impact as we known they some people who will trust bitcoin more now with it been in the hands of an institution but do we really think that this buys or say demands will outweigh the selling price,  not for now at least maybe in a long run. As for the institutions although I don’t buy the ETF idea they wouldn’t themselves just jump in and buy all the bitcoins they want no, they will definitely have to wait and study around look for more people coming to get the spot and probably wait for a retracement and then buy. This people are not in for a quick 2x they have their Plans mostly for a longer term and then they execute it. One thing I usually say is bitcoin is different from pump and dump coins just go in for a long term and That’s when you will probably be in profits. Short term investors are always the ones panicking.

[rdbase]

From my understanding and from what I have seen on the ETF commercials, you should be able to buy them and sell them on the popular stock exchange apps. I did read however that Vanguard[1] and another company decided to block these transactions.

[1] https://blockworks.co/news/vanguard-disallows-bitcoin-etf-trading

This is what caused the dump in price.
Once one rejects the ETF then others question their decision.

It seems unlikely since there were so many that got approved I counted 11 at one point but probably more since now the floodgates have opened for all this institutional money to be applied to the bitcoin revolution on the global financial system.

[Lucius]

~snip~
Are there any sources that proof that the institutional investors really already hold relevant amounts of bitcoins?

I read in some posts on the forum that BlackRock bought a certain amount of BTC in the months before the approval, and that all the funds had the right to do so, but I have not seen the exact amounts and who bought how much. What is known is that Grayscale has practically been converted into an ETF, and that it has (so they claim) more than 600 000 BTC in its possession. Given that they have been buying BTC for years, they are probably in the best position compared to other companies.

In the first day of trading of the long anticipated U.S.based spot bitcoin exchange traded funds, investors began buying and selling shares among ten SEC approved funds. Based on early volume numbers (see table below) the largest bitcoin fund, $28 billion Grayscale BitcoinBTC 0.0% Trust, saw the most shares change hands with volume surpassing $2 billion.

[slaman29]

Lol at everyone who said ETF was gonna push BTC to the moon. Yes it will at leat in the short term they said.

As for the institutions although I don’t buy the ETF idea they wouldn’t themselves just jump in and buy all the bitcoins they want no, they will definitely have to wait and study around look for more people coming to get the spot and probably wait for a retracement and then buy. This people are not in for a quick 2x they have their Plans mostly for a longer term and then they execute it. One thing I usually say is bitcoin is different from pump and dump coins just go in for a long term and That’s when you will probably be in profits. Short term investors are always the ones panicking.

Now people are coming up with all theories of why the crash happened. I mean, liquidations? And then news like Vanguard deciding not to offer ETF? Come on.

ETFs were supposed to according to everyone bring in longterm investors. But now we see speculators selling off and even small fish like Vanguard denying ETF is to blame?

I always said ETFs were hype. Bitcoin will rise longterm because of utility, not speculation.

[livingfree]

People need to calm down and stop expecting that the effect of the ETF is going to be asap and on an instant, no. Like what they're saying whenever we're in doubt, we need to zoom out.

We get to see and compare these ETFs with what it has done to gold and that's why we need to look at that picture for the longer effect of it.

Right now, we don't see some movements right? It doesn't mean that the market hasn't reacted, it did actually even before the results came out, remembeR?

[sana54210]

I don`t think that this is true! There is not a single proof that any ETF provider bought bitcoins before the ETF was launched.

Mate, what they say is actually true

In a Spot, Bitcoin ETF invests directly into Bitcoins, meaning they must have bought bitcoins at one point before they filed and got approved by SEC. Do you think SEC would go that low into approving an ETF the Government still hates, minus following the actual rules to the book? I don't think so.

Maybe you are confusing Spot ETFs with derivative based ETFs or futures contracts.

I do agree with this, they can't do it otherwise so it is not going to really be approved unless they can provide proof that it could be done, they need to make sure that they can do what they are saying they can do and SEC needs to see that it can be done and proven with factual data. This is why it is taking so long, it is not like some guaranteed thing, it takes time to prove that possibility and that is why it is taking time.

Eventually, maybe soon or maybe in many years, it doesn't matter when, but eventually it will get approved, and when it does, we can be certain that those companies have a lot of bitcoins without a doubt, which would help the market even more because they would be buying a lot from us and holding it and not selling it.