Oilacris
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March 04, 2024, 01:41:41 AM |
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Every day, thousands of dollars enter or leave the treasury of casinos, and we always hear about a gambler who wins or loses a large sum of money.
The thing that caught my attention is that the casino never loses. The money that you win is not the property of the casino, but of another player. The casino is in the process of recycling the money that the players have invested. There is always a winner and a loser, and when you bet with an amount of money, you bet against the money of all the other players. If you win, they will pay you from their money, and if someone else wins, they will pay himBTCBTC from your money.
So the casino remains the biggest beneficiary, right?
A casino owner can benefit from having this advantage in gambling platforms. Due to which the gambling industry has also seen a rising moment. But an owner definitely needs big money while establishing a casino. Suppose you have built a casino company, your platform has just started, a number of gamblers have joined and are gambling, how will you pay when one of them wins a big win or jackpot? Of course an owner needs a large amount of money to act as a backup. Here he can either add big reward bets late to reduce his risk and keep small gambling games so that he can get regular money. However, a casino owner gets passive income from the casino or gambling platform due to which he can quickly become the owner of huge amount of money. A gambler can never compete with the house. Running or building a casino business is never been cheap and one of the main risks is that you dont even know if it turns out to be a successful one or would really be a complete failure( im talking online casinos) but if we do speak about those physical places then it wont really be that so easy on building one. Aside from being costly or expensive, you cant still assure the rate of success. Despite on the rising numbers of casinos existence but it doesnt mean that it would really be that so simple for you to be able to make or able to have that some share of slice of the pie. This is why it would really be that so hard to make some assurance that you would really be able to succeed into this industry. This is why it would really be that best that you should really know about those factors needed. Into the words about on whose winning? Then it wont be so hard to determine that obvious answer. We do know that gamblers would really be always the losers in the end of the line. Also, gambling isnt really that for the sake of making some income. People do usually mess up on the time that they would really be making out those assumptions on trying out to make something happen towards gambling which we know that it cant be possible.
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danherbias07
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March 04, 2024, 02:06:05 PM |
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logically if the business is not profitable then it will go bankrupt, and in my opinion casinos will get more profits from their customers, and moreover it can be compared with companies and their staff which of course have companies that receive more profits
While some casinos go bankrupt others are striving and making big bucks. I'm not sure if we can check anywhere how many casinos there are in the world, how many of them go bankrupt every year, and how many of them are making a big profit, I guess it's even trickier to follow up some stats on crypto casinos. So who is winning more... I would say casinos! If it were otherwise there would be more winners around and fewer casinos! Simple as that... ![Smiley](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/smiley.gif) Yeah, and we will see a lot of testimonies from gamblers that they won against online casinos almost every day. It's so obvious because those are rare circumstances. This forum itself would see more about gamblers who are losing every day and I bet fewer can tell that they won. Casino games are meant to make us lose, the winning percentage is way low that it's almost impossible to win against it. But still, gamblers would take that risk just to have a shot at that low chance. Who doesn't like that kind of adventure? ![Grin](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/grin.gif) I've played so long in most of the casino games in the online gambling industry and I've seen red marks in my graph more than the green ones. It's always bloody. So, I could also say that casinos are the winning and I bet there will be more that will be created in the future because of how fast the growth of the industry is becoming. Sports have advertisements on gambling sites from time to time and there are more new names coming out in the market.
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Yatsan
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March 04, 2024, 02:30:25 PM |
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Casino for sure. Only a few gamblers are lucky enough to hit the jackpot or even win games. On the other side, Casino will earn both on gambler's loss and win by means of 'taxes' and fees and those will be with technical discussions about how a gambling site or a landbased casino works. Now, another question may arise, why does a casino or gambling site got bankrupt? Every platform has its maintenance, employees they are paying and other services necessary to run the whole thing. If they won't get enough from their players then that would be the only time they will be 'losing' not against the gamblers but the circumstances of running one. This is the reason why they need as much as possible gamblers to play on their platform if it is an online gambling site, and establishment if it is a land based casino. However, it is not a one is to one ratio between a gambler and th casino such as if the gambler won, it would be an instant loss to the platform. It is more of a casino to number of players ratio.
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tech30338
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March 04, 2024, 02:44:34 PM |
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casino's have high chance of winning although i have heard a person who have been ban from playing because he always wins i don't know if its just for the views name is mikki he always wins no matter what, but us i don't know we have bigger chance to lose, maybe he knew the system.
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TheUltraElite
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So anyway, I applied as a merit source :)
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March 04, 2024, 02:48:27 PM |
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The casinos bankroll is used to fund the games and thus any win the player has is paid out from that and any loss is added to that bankroll. If you analyze the bankroll volume in the long run, it is ever increasing with the losses balancing out lesser than the wins. However the casino exists for the players because without them the money will never flow in and thus the casino is for the players to play in. Of course the winner will always be the casino owners. ![Grin](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/grin.gif) So players to minimize losses should manage "their" bankroll properly.
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Solosanz
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March 04, 2024, 02:49:12 PM |
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casino's have high chance of winning although i have heard a person who have been ban from playing because he always wins i don't know if its just for the views name is mikki he always wins no matter what, but us i don't know we have bigger chance to lose, maybe he knew the system.
If he played skill based games, he's just better than average gamblers, that's why he can win more than the others. If he played lucky based games, it's hard to believe if you said he knew the system because when you play lucky based games, you won't know the multipliers you will get on the next bet. Most probably he was lucky, the gambler allow him to withdraw, but the casino choose to ban his account because they hope to not see it happen again.
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YOSHIE
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March 04, 2024, 03:04:44 PM |
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So the casino remains the biggest beneficiary, right?
Casinos act as intermediaries between users and users in terms of gambling, just like physical casino house owners, they do not provide money, they only provide space and take a percentage of the money won by users, As with online casinos, they only provide casino applications, to make it easy for users to bet. Sometimes there are also casino owners who have a lot of capital to compete with users, of course this kind of casino has a slim chance of winning for bettors, because they have full control over the operator who controls the game, Apart from profiting through a percentage, they can also earn money from user losses, for that you can see the biggest and most investors in online casinos.
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Issa56
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March 04, 2024, 03:13:24 PM |
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casino's have high chance of winning although i have heard a person who have been ban from playing because he always wins i don't know if its just for the views name is mikki he always wins no matter what, but us i don't know we have bigger chance to lose, maybe he knew the system.
I haven’t heard about things like this before. How will a gambling site block someone’s account just because the person is always winning? It doesn’t make any sense to me because when the person is losing, they won’t block the person’s account just to stop gambling. Any gambling site that can do something like this is not a reliable one and should be avoided. If you don’t have enough money, then you shouldn’t start a gambling site, but why will you start blocking people just because they win a large amount of money? I don’t know how true it is, but I know some gambling sites are capable of doing anything for their own selfish interests.
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Dewi Aries
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March 04, 2024, 03:30:23 PM |
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While some casinos go bankrupt others are striving and making big bucks. I'm not sure if we can check anywhere how many casinos there are in the world, how many of them go bankrupt every year, and how many of them are making a big profit, I guess it's even trickier to follow up some stats on crypto casinos. So who is winning more... I would say casinos! If it were otherwise there would be more winners around and fewer casinos! Simple as that... ![Smiley](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/smiley.gif) Yeah, and we will see a lot of testimonies from gamblers that they won against online casinos almost every day. It's so obvious because those are rare circumstances. This forum itself would see more about gamblers who are losing every day and I bet fewer can tell that they won. Casino games are meant to make us lose, the winning percentage is way low that it's almost impossible to win against it. But still, gamblers would take that risk just to have a shot at that low chance. Who doesn't like that kind of adventure? ![Grin](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/grin.gif) I've played so long in most of the casino games in the online gambling industry and I've seen red marks in my graph more than the green ones. It's always bloody. So, I could also say that casinos are the winning and I bet there will be more that will be created in the future because of how fast the growth of the industry is becoming. Sports have advertisements on gambling sites from time to time and there are more new names coming out in the market. However, the winning percentage is always much lower than the losing percentage, meaning that this is what makes most gamblers lose more than they win, there is absolutely no winning streak, although there are but it is very rare, usually in 10x attempts they will only get 1 or 3 wins and the rest lose, but it is a fact that the winning situation can cover the disappointment of a gambler for the previous defeat, or what it means is that 5 defeats can be covered by just getting one win but this is not about them making a recovery amount but rather the sensation they get can make them forget that the amount they lost is still much greater. On the other hand I would just believe that whoever it is will only be able to win occasionally and by "chance" and there are no lucky wins in the long run, because after all this is a business for the casino where your losses are the casino's profits. I think it is a fact that casinos will always have the upper hand because after all they are the ones who create and organize all the systems in every type of game provided, or simply they are the ones who manage your wins and losses, so it is impossible for casinos to always give you a win while on the other hand their goal of building gambling is to benefit themselves, and this is also the reason why we are always advised to gamble in moderation and not to overdo it because it is like you are wasting money and time on something that has no certainty.
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borovichok
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March 04, 2024, 03:47:08 PM |
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casino's have high chance of winning although i have heard a person who have been ban from playing because he always wins i don't know if its just for the views name is mikki he always wins no matter what, but us i don't know we have bigger chance to lose, maybe he knew the system.
I don’t believe such stories because it is difficult to win consistently at casinos. Stories of unbeatable gamblers often circulate within gambling communities and media, but they should be taken with a grain of salt. No doubt, some gamblers may experience short-term success in gambling but then in the long run you will observe that the gambler has gambled away all or almost all of his winning. No matter how a gambler tries, the casino always has an edge. A casino cannot ban a player before he is winning consistently. What I know is that most bookies reduce the odds of a specific gambler who has recorded significant wins but banning a player? Not sure. There are various reasons why someone might be banned from a casino, including suspected cheating, counting cards in games like blackjack, or exploiting vulnerabilities in the system. However, without concrete evidence, it's challenging to determine the validity of such claims.
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arimamib
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March 04, 2024, 04:20:06 PM |
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casino's have high chance of winning although i have heard a person who have been ban from playing because he always wins i don't know if its just for the views name is mikki he always wins no matter what, but us i don't know we have bigger chance to lose, maybe he knew the system.
I haven’t heard about things like this before. How will a gambling site block someone’s account just because the person is always winning? It doesn’t make any sense to me because when the person is losing, they won’t block the person’s account just to stop gambling. Any gambling site that can do something like this is not a reliable one and should be avoided. If you don’t have enough money, then you shouldn’t start a gambling site, but why will you start blocking people just because they win a large amount of money? I don’t know how true it is, but I know some gambling sites are capable of doing anything for their own selfish interests. Gambling sites operate on the principle of randomness and chance, where players have an equal opportunity to win or lose. Blocking accounts based solely on winning streaks would undermine the integrity of the platform and erode trust among its users. Any platform that engages in such practices risks losing its reputation. Maybe those gambling sites have ethics to not allow their users to put excessive bets that makes their financial accounts get messy. However, It's well-known that gambling sites do have measures in place to prevent fraudulent activities, such as cheating or exploiting loopholes in the system. They always put financial safety as their prime priority. These measures may include account verification processes and monitoring for suspicious betting patterns. If a player is found to be engaging in dishonest behavior, such as collusion or using automated software to gain an unfair advantage, the gambling site may take appropriate actions, including account suspension or closure.
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Frankolala
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![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
March 04, 2024, 04:25:08 PM |
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The casinos bankroll is used to fund the games and thus any win the player has is paid out from that and any loss is added to that bankroll. If you analyze the bankroll volume in the long run, it is ever increasing with the losses balancing out lesser than the wins. However the casino exists for the players because without them the money will never flow in and thus the casino is for the players to play in. Of course the winner will always be the casino owners. ![Grin](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/grin.gif) So players to minimize losses should manage "their" bankroll properly. I agree with you on what you said. The casino is making more profit than the gamblers. This is because, the casino can have a high number of gamblers using the casino, and only few wins big. If you look at it from this side, I think in gambling we have more of addicted gamblers, or let me say that gamblers that sees gambling as a means to make profit, and such gamblers will keep on playing regularly chasing their loses, because they want to hit it big. Just the way that casino pays their winner that won big, and announce it, it is the same way that gamblers lose a big amount of money to the casino but they will not announce it, because they know that it will scare their customers away. If one person wins $1m today, more than three persons will lose $1m that same day. Casinos are making huge profit from gamblers and that is why you see that the business is flourishing.
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..Stake.com.. | | | ▄████████████████████████████████████▄ ██ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ ██ ▄████▄ ██ ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀ ██████████ ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀ ██ ██████ ██ ██████████ ██ ██ ██████████ ██ ▀██▀ ██ ██ ██ ██████ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██ ██████ ██ █████ ███ ██████ ██ ████▄ ██ ██ █████ ███ ████ ████ █████ ███ ████████ ██ ████ ████ ██████████ ████ ████ ████▀ ██ ██████████ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ ██████████ ██ ██ ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀ ██ ▀█████████▀ ▄████████████▄ ▀█████████▀ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄███ ██ ██ ███▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ ██████████████████████████████████████████ | | | | | | ▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄ █ ▄▀▄ █▀▀█▀▄▄ █ █▀█ █ ▐ ▐▌ █ ▄██▄ █ ▌ █ █ ▄██████▄ █ ▌ ▐▌ █ ██████████ █ ▐ █ █ ▐██████████▌ █ ▐ ▐▌ █ ▀▀██████▀▀ █ ▌ █ █ ▄▄▄██▄▄▄ █ ▌▐▌ █ █▐ █ █ █▐▐▌ █ █▐█ ▀▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▀█ | | | | | | ▄▄█████████▄▄ ▄██▀▀▀▀█████▀▀▀▀██▄ ▄█▀ ▐█▌ ▀█▄ ██ ▐█▌ ██ ████▄ ▄█████▄ ▄████ ████████▄███████████▄████████ ███▀ █████████████ ▀███ ██ ███████████ ██ ▀█▄ █████████ ▄█▀ ▀█▄ ▄██▀▀▀▀▀▀▀██▄ ▄▄▄█▀ ▀███████ ███████▀ ▀█████▄ ▄█████▀ ▀▀▀███▄▄▄███▀▀▀ | | | ..PLAY NOW.. |
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South Park
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![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
March 07, 2024, 08:32:36 PM |
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The casinos bankroll is used to fund the games and thus any win the player has is paid out from that and any loss is added to that bankroll. If you analyze the bankroll volume in the long run, it is ever increasing with the losses balancing out lesser than the wins. However the casino exists for the players because without them the money will never flow in and thus the casino is for the players to play in. Of course the winner will always be the casino owners. ![Grin](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/grin.gif) So players to minimize losses should manage "their" bankroll properly. I agree with you on what you said. The casino is making more profit than the gamblers. This is because, the casino can have a high number of gamblers using the casino, and only few wins big. If you look at it from this side, I think in gambling we have more of addicted gamblers, or let me say that gamblers that sees gambling as a means to make profit, and such gamblers will keep on playing regularly chasing their loses, because they want to hit it big. Just the way that casino pays their winner that won big, and announce it, it is the same way that gamblers lose a big amount of money to the casino but they will not announce it, because they know that it will scare their customers away. If one person wins $1m today, more than three persons will lose $1m that same day. Casinos are making huge profit from gamblers and that is why you see that the business is flourishing. The question answers itself, if casinos were not the ones making the most gains, there will not be any way for them to remain in business for long and they will eventually disappear, but since that is not the case and each year we see more casinos appearing all over the world, this means that casinos are in fact incredibly profitable, something that should not surprise anyone as they have the math on their side, and as long as the owners administer their casino well, making money is a given for them.
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Fatunad
Sr. Member
![*](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/star.gif) ![*](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/star.gif) ![*](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/star.gif)
Offline
Activity: 2310
Merit: 359
PredX - AI-Powered Prediction Market
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![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
March 07, 2024, 08:58:56 PM |
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The casinos bankroll is used to fund the games and thus any win the player has is paid out from that and any loss is added to that bankroll. If you analyze the bankroll volume in the long run, it is ever increasing with the losses balancing out lesser than the wins. However the casino exists for the players because without them the money will never flow in and thus the casino is for the players to play in. Of course the winner will always be the casino owners. ![Grin](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/grin.gif) So players to minimize losses should manage "their" bankroll properly. I agree with you on what you said. The casino is making more profit than the gamblers. This is because, the casino can have a high number of gamblers using the casino, and only few wins big. If you look at it from this side, I think in gambling we have more of addicted gamblers, or let me say that gamblers that sees gambling as a means to make profit, and such gamblers will keep on playing regularly chasing their loses, because they want to hit it big. Just the way that casino pays their winner that won big, and announce it, it is the same way that gamblers lose a big amount of money to the casino but they will not announce it, because they know that it will scare their customers away. If one person wins $1m today, more than three persons will lose $1m that same day. Casinos are making huge profit from gamblers and that is why you see that the business is flourishing. The question answers itself, if casinos were not the ones making the most gains, there will not be any way for them to remain in business for long and they will eventually disappear, but since that is not the case and each year we see more casinos appearing all over the world, this means that casinos are in fact incredibly profitable, something that should not surprise anyone as they have the math on their side, and as long as the owners administer their casino well, making money is a given for them. Yeah, this kind of question could really be answered out with just simply making use of your own common sense on which same as you said that if these casinos werent making money then we wont really be seeing a significant numbers as of todays on which we are seeing there are tons which do solidly means that they are indeed making money. Basing up with those industry growth which this is really that a multi-billion business on which does means that there are tons of losers who do keep on feeding these casino owners. ![Cheesy](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/cheesy.gif) This is why as a gambler then you should really be that responsible on the things that you are dealing specially with gambling.Dont make yourself that getting addicted through it. Its not bad to gamble as long you do make yourself that responsible because if you dont then you would really be finding yourself at such great trouble and this is something that you must be avoiding in the first place. Gamble for fun and not for money.
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livingfree
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![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
March 07, 2024, 09:24:38 PM |
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It's always the casino that are winning. It's true that when someone wins, on the other hand, there's someone who's losing.
And all the money that's inside the casino is what we call cashflow and they're just like the mediator of it and taking commissions out of our bets everytime we lose.
So, as a gambler we win sometimes but there are more moment that we're losing so take that in mind that we're not lucky at all times. And when is in luck, do not waste that opportunity for you to enjoy and take that money.
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ShowOff
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 2716
Merit: 1193
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March 07, 2024, 09:34:18 PM |
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It's always the casino that are winning. It's true that when someone wins, on the other hand, there's someone who's losing.
And all the money that's inside the casino is what we call cashflow and they're just like the mediator of it and taking commissions out of our bets everytime we lose.
So, as a gambler we win sometimes but there are more moment that we're losing so take that in mind that we're not lucky at all times. And when is in luck, do not waste that opportunity for you to enjoy and take that money. It's an open secret about the gambling industry, so it's nothing new or surprising. We don't even need to argue about who wins and who loses between casinos and gamblers, that's because the answer is already known. It is true that some casinos go bankrupt because they don't have enough budget to pay their customers' winnings, but this rarely happens in thriving casinos where web traffic is very dense with thousands of players every day. Casinos are the winners in the gambling industry, that's true and it's an undeniable reality. The logic presented by the OP is correct, so there is no debate on my part because all gamblers know it too.
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entertheabyss
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![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
March 07, 2024, 10:50:50 PM |
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It's always the casino that are winning. It's true that when someone wins, on the other hand, there's someone who's losing.
And all the money that's inside the casino is what we call cashflow and they're just like the mediator of it and taking commissions out of our bets everytime we lose.
So, as a gambler we win sometimes but there are more moment that we're losing so take that in mind that we're not lucky at all times. And when is in luck, do not waste that opportunity for you to enjoy and take that money.
Gamblers focused on their sector and make the best out of it while casino gamblers do generate quite huge amount of profits in the system. I can't place my thoughts right but ensuring I reap every possible means of doubling our streams in the system because I'm quite aware how difficult it can be. Making money is part of the plan. In the current space, I can't indulge in activities that doesn't appear to be running in massive profits. At our happiest moment, that's someone craving sorrows and remorseful for the wrong choices made that led to heavy losses in the system.
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livingfree
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![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
March 07, 2024, 11:06:00 PM |
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It's always the casino that are winning. It's true that when someone wins, on the other hand, there's someone who's losing.
And all the money that's inside the casino is what we call cashflow and they're just like the mediator of it and taking commissions out of our bets everytime we lose.
So, as a gambler we win sometimes but there are more moment that we're losing so take that in mind that we're not lucky at all times. And when is in luck, do not waste that opportunity for you to enjoy and take that money. It's an open secret about the gambling industry, so it's nothing new or surprising. We don't even need to argue about who wins and who loses between casinos and gamblers, that's because the answer is already known. It is true that some casinos go bankrupt because they don't have enough budget to pay their customers' winnings, but this rarely happens in thriving casinos where web traffic is very dense with thousands of players every day. Casinos are the winners in the gambling industry, that's true and it's an undeniable reality. The logic presented by the OP is correct, so there is no debate on my part because all gamblers know it too. Yeah right. Everybody knows that it's always the casino that wins at the end. And those winners that have bagholding profits might just go back to the casino and let them lose all of it. I haven't seen an established casino that went bankrupt because of their customers winning. They always have backup plans. But I've seen casinos that went out of business because it's a corporate decision and they can no longer cope up with the competition in the market as this industry is thriving and too many new big players coming in.
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SmartGold01
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March 07, 2024, 11:33:54 PM |
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It's always the casino that are winning. It's true that when someone wins, on the other hand, there's someone who's losing.
And all the money that's inside the casino is what we call cashflow and they're just like the mediator of it and taking commissions out of our bets everytime we lose.
So, as a gambler we win sometimes but there are more moment that we're losing so take that in mind that we're not lucky at all times. And when is in luck, do not waste that opportunity for you to enjoy and take that money.
You are correct but most times they lose heavily as well let say when someone hit more than the total percentage they have received from the casino they will have to pay from their personal pocket to those groups of people that win such sets of games, and again what you must consider about casino is that in everyday people wins it may not from your region or being you that wins but someone wins. Therefore all this couples together, they pays out their commissions to people who are winning so what we must find out is to know how many percentage they are taking from people in every single bets and how much in total for the months / year then you would know how lucrative gambling business or not maybe to know if they are losing or gaining in the business.
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livingfree
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![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
March 08, 2024, 08:33:21 PM |
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It's always the casino that are winning. It's true that when someone wins, on the other hand, there's someone who's losing.
And all the money that's inside the casino is what we call cashflow and they're just like the mediator of it and taking commissions out of our bets everytime we lose.
So, as a gambler we win sometimes but there are more moment that we're losing so take that in mind that we're not lucky at all times. And when is in luck, do not waste that opportunity for you to enjoy and take that money.
You are correct but most times they lose heavily as well let say when someone hit more than the total percentage they have received from the casino they will have to pay from their personal pocket to those groups of people that win such sets of games, and again what you must consider about casino is that in everyday people wins it may not from your region or being you that wins but someone wins. Therefore all this couples together, they pays out their commissions to people who are winning so what we must find out is to know how many percentage they are taking from people in every single bets and how much in total for the months / year then you would know how lucrative gambling business or not maybe to know if they are losing or gaining in the business. Yeah, that's one thing for this business. When someone hits big, they have to pay that of course and that's going to be out of their budget which is already allotted for big wins. They're a casino and they've got money for that matter and that's the reason why it is normal that we see them pay big because that's part of the business. There is no need to know the metrics and numbers about commissions or winnings that they're getting, it's a common knowledge that the actually are winning at most times.
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