[SOLVED] Cannot send sats from my LN node (lnd)

[NotATether]

Hi guys, I've started trying out Lightning a few months ago and I am able to receive sats just fine. However, I am having an issue with sending sats to any LNURL, because it keeps failing with "insufficient_balance".

Currently my node has 4300 sats. But even micropayments of 100 sats fail with this error.

I have one channel open to Voltage.cloud, which you can see in my Thunderhub control panel:



I also have an LNbits control panel that shows largely the same thing as this. And a macaroon that is capable with interfacing with the LND node itself.

I went to Amboss.space to see if I could buy some additional channels, but all of them have a "min size" of 0.0005BTC or more so I was turned off by that.

What should I do?

[Mia Chloe]

Check if your funds are tied up in outbound channels. Most times it's difficult to route payments if you have insufficient inbound funds. Also check if the the provider you are using supports that channel. If not try reestablishing your connection.

[nc50lc]

I have one channel open to Voltage.cloud, which you can see in my Thunderhub control panel:

I don't use Thunderhub but if you can find an option to check your channel's "local reserve", see if it's almost as much as your local balance.
If yes, that's what causing it to be short on available balance since it needs to keep that amount for future on-chain fees.

[NotATether]

Check if your funds are tied up in outbound channels. Most times it's difficult to route payments if you have insufficient inbound funds.

How do I do that?

I've received the balance in one transaction, and that slider on the right says 4300 on my side vs (5m - 4300) on the other channel's side.

Also check if the the provider you are using supports that channel. If not try reestablishing your connection.

That channel was automatically opened by Voltage themselves who are also hosting my node.

I don't use Thunderhub but if you can find an option to check your channel's "local reserve", see if it's almost as much as your local balance.
If yes, that's what causing it to be short on available balance since it needs to keep that amount for future on-chain fees.

I can't seem to find it but I do find a section for "Local balance" which is 4306 sats and "Remote balance" is 492,224 for the 500,000 sat channel.

LNbits shows I have 0 sats, maybe that is related.

[DaveF]

Check if your funds are tied up in outbound channels. Most times it's difficult to route payments if you have insufficient inbound funds.

How do I do that?

I've received the balance in one transaction, and that slider on the right says 4300 on my side vs (5m - 4300) on the other channel's side.

Also check if the the provider you are using supports that channel. If not try reestablishing your connection.

That channel was automatically opened by Voltage themselves who are also hosting my node.

I don't use Thunderhub but if you can find an option to check your channel's "local reserve", see if it's almost as much as your local balance.
If yes, that's what causing it to be short on available balance since it needs to keep that amount for future on-chain fees.

I can't seem to find it but I do find a section for "Local balance" which is 4306 sats and "Remote balance" is 492,224 for the 500,000 sat channel.

LNbits shows I have 0 sats, maybe that is related.

I am mobile at the moment so can't do a good cut & paste, but google 'lightning network channel reserve'. More or less you keep 1% or so of your balance in a reserve that cannot be spent. If both parties trust each other when you setup the channel it's not needed, but for the most part opening up with an unknown peer LN will automatically have that.

So you might have funds there but you can't spend them.

-Dave

[NotATether]

I am mobile at the moment so can't do a good cut & paste, but google 'lightning network channel reserve'. More or less you keep 1% or so of your balance in a reserve that cannot be spent. If both parties trust each other when you setup the channel it's not needed, but for the most part opening up with an unknown peer LN will automatically have that.

So you might have funds there but you can't spend them.

-Dave

What does that mean?

Is the 1% in relation to the 500k sats channel capacity (= 5000 sats)? Otherwise this makes no sense.

I'll probably try to send more sats to the wallet to reach that threshold and then try to make the transaction again.

But if this is the case, how is someone supposed to "exit" the LN in terms of swapping all the LNBTC out for real BTC?

[DaveF]

I am mobile at the moment so can't do a good cut & paste, but google 'lightning network channel reserve'. More or less you keep 1% or so of your balance in a reserve that cannot be spent. If both parties trust each other when you setup the channel it's not needed, but for the most part opening up with an unknown peer LN will automatically have that.

So you might have funds there but you can't spend them.

-Dave

What does that mean?

Is the 1% in relation to the 500k sats channel capacity (= 5000 sats)? Otherwise this makes no sense.

I'll probably try to send more sats to the wallet to reach that threshold and then try to make the transaction again.

But if this is the case, how is someone supposed to "exit" the LN in terms of swapping all the LNBTC out for real BTC?

https://bitcoin.design/guide/how-it-works/liquidity/#channel-reserve

So long as a channel is open you should, unless you agreed with the other party, to keep 1% (default can be changed) sitting in there no matter what.

When you close the channel, you close it and all the funds go back on-chain to you you.

Now, and here is where it gets fun, either side when opening the channel can request different percentages. It's not hidden, but the same way you and I can agree to have 0% reserve. You and Bob who don't trust each other at all can have a 5% reserve.

-Dave

[nc50lc]

-snip-

I can't seem to find it but I do find a section for "Local balance" which is 4306 sats and "Remote balance" is 492,224 for the 500,000 sat channel.

LNbits shows I have 0 sats, maybe that is related.

Most of the time, it's automatically discounted from your spendable amount so since LNbits shows '0', your local reserve must be higher than your local balance.

Is the 1% in relation to the 500k sats channel capacity (= 5000 sats)? Otherwise this makes no sense.

Upon checking my channels in Electrum, that is actually the case.
So your local reserve and the remote node's reserve should be 5000sats both by default.

[DaveF]

@NotATether either post or PM me a LN invoice and I'll send you some sats you can then see if you can see if the balance changes as expected. I'm out taking care of stuff most of the day today but I should be able to check in now and then, if not tomorrow morning.

Also from the too lazy to look department, are you on clearnet or tor or both?
And I don't know if you posted it, but is this your node?

03e2b8f741b13d0746816a2a609032e4da6729347835e574d9407b7dd183face65@62hauxwzb43piimc3biqu3ggihbrja5dvx44myso54yg2zudlpcdvlqd.onion:9735

-Dave

[NotATether]

@NotATether either post or PM me a LN invoice and I'll send you some sats you can then see if you can see if the balance changes as expected. I'm out taking care of stuff most of the day today but I should be able to check in now and then, if not tomorrow morning.

Also from the too lazy to look department, are you on clearnet or tor or both?
And I don't know if you posted it, but is this your node?

03e2b8f741b13d0746816a2a609032e4da6729347835e574d9407b7dd183face65@62hauxwzb43piimc3biqu3ggihbrja5dvx44myso54yg2zudlpcdvlqd.onion:9735

-Dave

Give me a couple hours to get the info ready.

I'll need to check my dashboard or on LND for my node ID as I haven't taken note of the node details before, to be honest. I'll edit this post with the ID and stuff once I'm done.

Edit: The node ID is:

0e68dab0-dcdf-410e-960f-876ef3ace54bN

Also my channel just got disconnected. I dunno if that's the reason I can't make an LN invoice in LNbits now because it's complaining something about an "expired X.509" certificate.

So maybe we gotta create a test channel too. After I update to the latest LND and restart.

[philipma1957]

I have some popcorn as I want to see this resolve.


I also just use Kraken and Nicehash both allow me to access their LN nodes. which are not as much maintenance for me than my own node.

[DaveF]

I see this as being you

https://1ml.com/node/03e2b8f741b13d0746816a2a609032e4da6729347835e574d9407b7dd183face65

Using the channel ID that you have in the image above. It matches the voltage-C2 that you are connected to.
The Wacker one is one I opened to you.

As of this post if you look at the link above both channels are still open.

In thunderhub what happens if you try to create an invoice?

-Dave

[NotATether]

I see this as being you

https://1ml.com/node/03e2b8f741b13d0746816a2a609032e4da6729347835e574d9407b7dd183face65

Using the channel ID that you have in the image above. It matches the voltage-C2 that you are connected to.
The Wacker one is one I opened to you.

As of this post if you look at the link above both channels are still open.

In thunderhub what happens if you try to create an invoice?

-Dave

That long hex string matches my node's public key, so yeah it looks like it's mine.

I do see the whacker channel in my dashboard.

I can create an invoice in Thunderhub, and redeem it for withdrawal. I just tried with 500 sats.

Sending sats out of the wallet still doesn't work though. I notice that Thunderhub says my Bitcoin balance is 0 sats (my LN balance is 4.8k sats). Could this mean I need to send onchain bitcoins to my wallet, somehow?

[DaveF]

Odd, send me (or post) an invoice that I can pay, and I'll see if I can send to you.
Then you can see if you can send back.

It's a simple 1st step to check.

PM it or post it here.

I usually do this between my own nodes to make sure there is nothing wrong before I start doing more with them.


-Dave

[NotATether]

Odd, send me (or post) an invoice that I can pay, and I'll see if I can send to you.
Then you can see if you can send back.

It's a simple 1st step to check.

PM it or post it here.

I usually do this between my own nodes to make sure there is nothing wrong before I start doing more with them.


-Dave

Alright, here is the invoice:

lnbc5u1pj7ank2pp57qa2ep4y75l7sau205gjh0pseamg3lwt606cx0zzymyav9yglfjqdz22djk2gr fvcsx67fqdehkgefqvdskugrjv43k26tkv5sr2vpsypekzarnypn8ymmdypzxzan9gccqzzsxqyz5vq sp5atsrv5gmpp7jv48v6uw6du0m9jcfsn7wyzw8mnsvtafrw4dtx0es9qyyssq5767tk7ha33elhje5 pdq4y5dhxjss3h3pg0qcj5rw4crnxpkpugnsxrx5uwcwkmcesu0cvp72ejxmlwmxj7mkznpyfwjtf86 gzsqz0sq9amkhg

It's for 500 sats.

This will put my balance above 5k sats so if the channel reserve is the problem, I should be able to send at least some of it back.

[DaveF]

Paid.
Single hop from my node to yours.



This is a repayment for 0 sats TO ME you should be able to add whatever amount you want:



If you can't scan the QR:

Code:

lnbc1pj7a6s4pp5s9yuq6tz05324wha0lnx8rn8hx3kk7gdxafmvv73ctc2al8xjjxqdqv23jhxapqxysqcqzzsxqyjw5qsp5gnqsgxpkqqwkl4mgtkvj3qjxyujlfs8aysz23dgsdypjnjza7srs9qyyssq7acrduv9duynhahph2k3cremcjrucf6mr7mkq4p9m7hjpcnfwavs4l59g09rjz778s2f04lcwknq6h9mp8fzs5fnv8fvye4jwmcrdcspl9cl7f

This is a repayment of 200 sats:

Code:

lnbc2u1pj7a6kcpp5qyl3gm9fnfqj4wuc2ep09u7v32af9vw32k9z0vsgyrr8nreyq4sqdquxgcrqgzng92zq5n9wpshjmt9de6qcqzzsxqyjw5qsp5gp5fhuexjgusvjyf792pewzkv8hyf907wfek4kpt3p9xza9mqh8q9qyyssqmdhmvttgzkjkdxjwa6kr7kfmce7c54f9x7ps0lvpx2ewljzc4g0r3us03srv02nmamxuzr0ytvqep5d8fudj85swfue8lzhvry5d2jqq9pu3nh

And this is another 0 amount so you can add whatever you want to it. It goes to another location that should be able to receive either from you thought me to them or you through voltage.

Code:

lnbc1pj7am5upp5ku9mkkr49ptkcwnjkg03haf3ky48wz80plyjd260d4la2yasss0qdzygf5hgun9ve5kcmpqg3jhqmmnd96zqd34v4jk2efevdjrwwf4vvurgd3ev93kzepevsuqcqzx7xqyz5vqsp535urk6lqwmlysgvktntgclmzfww3elvwsh9qesw3v8epexyfpp8q9qyyssqhq677hec8w52q8tn7m78tslj0xwf5a7wc5we7knctznas03u8mfnd00m67qfta3gxunyutfv2crzfvnnwt7hd6ztadvf3xhv2c3mn8gqq5l0ga

So should be a good test to see that everything works.

-Dave

[NotATether]

As usual, I have received this payment but am not able to send anything in return. Not even the zero amount ones. However, now I'm starting to figure out why:

Code:

zenulabidin@destroyer:~/Documents$ lncli --macaroonpath=/tmp/macaroon --rpcserver=zippy-the-pinhead.m.voltageapp.io --tlscertpath='' listunspent
{
        "utxos": []
}
zenulabidin@destroyer:~/Documents$ lncli --macaroonpath=/tmp/macaroon --rpcserver=zippy-the-pinhead.m.voltageapp.io --tlscertpath='' listchaintxns
{
    "transactions": []
}
zenulabidin@destroyer:~/Documents$ lncli --macaroonpath=/tmp/macaroon --rpcserver=zippy-the-pinhead.m.voltageapp.io --tlscertpath='' wallet addresses list
{
    "account_with_addresses": []
}
zenulabidin@destroyer:~/Documents$ lncli --macaroonpath=/tmp/macaroon --rpcserver=zippy-the-pinhead.m.voltageapp.io --tlscertpath='' channelbalance
{
    "balance": "5307",
    "pending_open_balance": "0",
    "local_balance": {
        "sat": "5307",
        "msat": "5307000"
    },
    "remote_balance": {
        "sat": "587753",
        "msat": "587753000"
    },
    "unsettled_local_balance": {
        "sat": "0",
        "msat": "0"
    },
    "unsettled_remote_balance": {
        "sat": "0",
        "msat": "0"
    },
    "pending_open_local_balance": {
        "sat": "0",
        "msat": "0"
    },
    "pending_open_remote_balance": {
        "sat": "0",
        "msat": "0"
    }
}
zenulabidin@destroyer:~/Documents$ lncli --macaroonpath=/tmp/macaroon --rpcserver=zippy-the-pinhead.m.voltageapp.io --tlscertpath='' walletbalance
{
    "total_balance": "0",
    "confirmed_balance": "0",
    "unconfirmed_balance": "0",
    "locked_balance": "0",
    "reserved_balance_anchor_chan": "20000",
    "account_balance": {
        "default": {
            "confirmed_balance": "0",
            "unconfirmed_balance": "0"
        }
    }
}
zenulabidin@destroyer:~/Documents$ lncli --macaroonpath=/tmp/macaroon --rpcserver=zippy-the-pinhead.m.voltageapp.io --tlscertpath='' wallet requiredreserve
{
    "required_reserve": "20000"
}
zenulabidin@destroyer:~/Documents$ lncli --macaroonpath=/tmp/macaroon --rpcserver=zippy-the-pinhead.m.voltageapp.io --tlscertpath='' newaddress p2wkh
{
    "address": "bc1qsa9k6xga5kw2ffyefdnn9eyu0kkn670t3l97q9"
}
zenulabidin@destroyer:~/Documents$ lncli --macaroonpath=/tmp/macaroon --rpcserver=zippy-the-pinhead.m.voltageapp.io --tlscertpath='' wallet addresses list
{
    "account_with_addresses": [
        {
            "name": "default",
            "address_type": "WITNESS_PUBKEY_HASH",
            "derivation_path": "m/84'/0'/0'",
            "addresses": [
                {
                    "address": "bc1qsa9k6xga5kw2ffyefdnn9eyu0kkn670t3l97q9",
                    "is_internal": false,
                    "balance": "0"
                }
            ]
        }
    ]
}

No UTXOs, no transactions, not even any on-chain addresses until I created one. And the reserve is 20k sats. Much higher than what is available in the local balance. Actually, now I'm even seeing two different types of balances - channel balance (of which there is local and remote that we already know) and wallet balance. And the wallet balance is completely empty.

So basically, all I have to do here, is fund the bc1 address to fix this mess, right? I would do it now, but I'm waiting for some advice so I don't burn some BTC by accident.

But then after I do that, how are future LN payments going to affect the wallet (on chain) balance?

[nc50lc]

You might also need to fulfill the "local_chan_reserve_sat" shown in listchannels command.
Aside from the on-chain "reserved_balance_anchor_chan" of your wallet, your channels must have a local reserve and remote (other party's) reserve.

[DaveF]

Yes you should have a balance since if you have to close it you need funds to broadcast that transaction.

BUT and I could be 100% wrong here

AFAIK none of that should matter. I have a channel open between the node @NotATether has and mine with an In-Bound liquidity of 500 Sats
Sending 200 of that should not matter since the channel is open and working.



On that note I am brain fried at the moment due to work things and have not thought this through all the way.

-Dave

[NotATether]

OK, at this point, it's getting nuts.

Now I have sent an on-chain payment to the bc1q address such that my on-chain balance is about 22k sats. But I still cannot send anything.

Not just my wallet app, but even the lncli `payinvoice` command is failing:

Code:

zenulabidin@destroyer:~/Documents$ lncli --macaroonpath=/tmp/macaroon --rpcserver=zippy-the-pinhead.m.voltageapp.io --tlscertpath='' payinvoice lnbc1u1pjl9c9kpp5t8nfrvflnedazxysn9z2a6h659kekd4mwlpe49mdl7rfkalr8lvqdpuge6kuerfdenjqsz6v4h82mzlg93xjerfdcsx7m3qwd6xzcmtv4ezumn9waescqzzsxqrrs0sp5swya6zr4qn37uvxyfytg53u59eqjqg56r2p4cchxamcgg44dce3q9qyyssquxzs5dsu5fjytnydm2a4yal64lxaat2st88v2rkage7dd9sm4dcxzvjz0urp9jsc3h605s68lg4530twt4xsf4vs0pxkr5yvrh4l99cp8d29da
Payment hash: 59e691b13f9e5bd118909944aeeafaa16d9b36bb77c39a976dff869b77e33fd8
Description: Funding @Zenul_Abidin on stacker.news
Amount (in satoshis): 100
Fee limit (in satoshis): 100
Destination: 03cc1d0932bb99b0697f5b5e5961b83ab7fd66f1efc4c9f5c7bad66c1bcbe78f02
Confirm payment (yes/no): yes
+------------+--------------+--------------+--------------+-----+----------+----------+-------+
| HTLC_STATE | ATTEMPT_TIME | RESOLVE_TIME | RECEIVER_AMT | FEE | TIMELOCK | CHAN_OUT | ROUTE |
+------------+--------------+--------------+--------------+-----+----------+----------+-------+
+------------+--------------+--------------+--------------+-----+----------+----------+-------+
Amount + fee:   0 + 0 sat
Payment hash:   59e691b13f9e5bd118909944aeeafaa16d9b36bb77c39a976dff869b77e33fd8
Payment status: FAILED, reason: FAILURE_REASON_INSUFFICIENT_BALANCE
[lncli] FAILED

Although I did see something suspicious in the LND logs:

Code:

2024-03-14 11:46:47.585
CRTR: Payment 59e691b13f9e5bd118909944aeeafaa16d9b36bb77c39a976dff869b77e33fd8 failed: insufficient_balance
2024-03-14 11:46:47.572
CRTR: Failed to find route for payment 59e691b13f9e5bd118909944aeeafaa16d9b36bb77c39a976dff869b77e33fd8: insufficient local balance
2024-03-14 11:46:47.572
CRTR: ShortChannelID=831822:3096:1: cannot add outgoing htlc: commitment transaction dips peer below chan reserve: our balance below chan reserve
2024-03-14 11:46:47.572
CRTR: ShortChannelID=823048:2451:0: cannot add outgoing htlc: commitment transaction dips peer below chan reserve: our balance below chan reserve

All the other failed payments made this error too, apparently.

What does "commitment transaction dips peer below chan reserve" mean and why is it complaining about balance below channel reserve when both the on-chain and lightning local balances are both well above it? (local_chan_reserve_sat 1000 sats for Dave's channel - Voltage is 5000 sats).

Meanwhile LNbits continues to show a balance of 0, in total. But Thunderhub shows the correct balance

Most importantly: Is there a way to specifically choose which channel to route to for an invoice? I think the invoice payment is just choosing some channel at random and somehow it is using the Voltage channel where I have a lower local balance than the reserve.


Running a node is not supposed to be this hard