Rant-Hardware Wallet Physical Quality

[alexeyneu]

And if you want a made in the USA multimeter look at some of the Fluke units. There are several that are still made in the USA. Be prepared to pay for that fact.....

-Dave

another one is benning , german made

[DaveF]

So, the screen actually came in back in late July I just never had a chance to do anything with it until last week.
And......
The touch part does not work, but I think at this point it's the Keystone not the screen. I gave it to a friend who does some surface mount repair work and he is getting signal from the screen that he *assumes* is touch info since it's a data line that is only active when the screen is touched. 

Could be a bad screen, could be something wrong with the keystone, could be the screen & keystone are fine but the screen is still not compatible with the unit. But just gut feeling that it's the keystone itself.

It's still sucking dry the 3V battery and not charging the main battery even know good ones.

Just going to scrap it at this point.

-Dave

[dkbit98]

More quality device usually have better durability but not if they have integrated batteries like Keystone.
I like that new Trezor Safe 5 added GorillaGlass protection and I think this should be adopted by all hardware wallets.
If I had to choose one device than I would probably choose Passport by Foundation, it is made from quality materials and battery can be replaced easily.
Only thing I would add to Passsport is waterproof resistence, GorillaGlass, and maybe mask in accessories.

I found one interesting article from Athena-Alpha website about hardware wallet durability.
https://www.athena-alpha.com/how-long-do-hardware-wallets-last/

[DaveF]

What would also be nice is for all of the wallet makers to publish the hardware BoM and schematic.

https://github.com/Coldcard/firmware/tree/master/hardware

Not saying coldcard is the answer but when having an issue like the touchscreen not working or the battery drain you could at least have a chance of figuring it out.
Now, it's just a guessing game.

-Dave

[Pmalek]

Only thing I would add to Passsport is waterproof resistence, GorillaGlass, and maybe mask in accessories.

Nothing wrong with that, but keep in mind that each of those suggestions that you made would increase the final price of the hardware wallet. Foundations' Passport is already a relatively expensive device among those that are usually recommended in these parts.

What would also be nice is for all of the wallet makers to publish the hardware BoM and schematic.

That makes sense, especially if it's an open-source product or source verifiable. Perhaps there are other manufacturers who are already doing that. I remember seeing some schematics for the design of Passports, but there was also talk of similar information available for Ledger and Trezor.

[dkbit98]

What would also be nice is for all of the wallet makers to publish the hardware BoM and schematic.

Passport hardware wallet already have schematic posted on their github page, and everything is open source with Passport, unlike competitors.
Trezor devices also have something like this posted for older devices, and many people made their own DIY Trezors.
Last time I checked Bitbox02 had released this partially, but I don't know anyone who made DIY Bitbox.
However, I wouldn't recommend most people of doing this if they are not professionals.

Nothing wrong with that, but keep in mind that each of those suggestions that you made would increase the final price of the hardware wallet. Foundations' Passport is already a relatively expensive device among those that are usually recommended in these parts.

Sure, but GorillaGlass is not that expensive anymore like it use to be, even cheap devices have it now.

[DaveF]

What would also be nice is for all of the wallet makers to publish the hardware BoM and schematic.

Passport hardware wallet already have schematic posted on their github page, and everything is open source with Passport, unlike competitors.
Trezor devices also have something like this posted for older devices, and many people made their own DIY Trezors.
Last time I checked Bitbox02 had released this partially, but I don't know anyone who made DIY Bitbox.
However, I wouldn't recommend most people of doing this if they are not professionals.

Nothing wrong with that, but keep in mind that each of those suggestions that you made would increase the final price of the hardware wallet. Foundations' Passport is already a relatively expensive device among those that are usually recommended in these parts.

Sure, but GorillaGlass is not that expensive anymore like it use to be, even cheap devices have it now.

There are a few makers, as pointed out that do have the info online.

And agreed that you should not build your own unless you know what you are doing. I was pointing out that shit happens and it would be nice to have a parts list so you could at least attempt repairs.

I gave up on fixing my Keystone, because I really don't care anymore with the battery drain issue. But, without a BoM & schematic it's all guess work.

Could probably fill the entire forum on the right to repair arguments.

-Dave

[dkbit98]

I gave up on fixing my Keystone, because I really don't care anymore with the battery drain issue. But, without a BoM & schematic it's all guess work.

I guess you can still use Keystone device in combination with any regular power bank or connected with your computer.
This is not the first time I hear about issues with poor batteries in Keystone devices, especially if not charged and discharged on regular basis.
Not sure if Keystone devices would survive opening of the case because of their self-destruct mechanism.

[DaveF]

I gave up on fixing my Keystone, because I really don't care anymore with the battery drain issue. But, without a BoM & schematic it's all guess work.

I guess you can still use Keystone device in combination with any regular power bank or connected with your computer.
This is not the first time I hear about issues with poor batteries in Keystone devices, especially if not charged and discharged on regular basis.
Not sure if Keystone devices would survive opening of the case because of their self-destruct mechanism.

Yeah, but with the touchscreen not working it's a paperweight.:

So because the battery was not working I had it on a USB cable and forgot about it.

I then wound up knocking it off the desk and put a small crack in the screen but the touch part stopped working.
So here it is in all it's glory while waiting for a new screen and battery from some sketchy seller in China

Once again, 100% my fault *I* broke it. But, without a part # to get the correct screen I don't know why the replacement didn't work. And without a schematic I could not have someone troubleshoot it the other way.
The flip side is at least it was cheap (Sub $90)

So you wind up with the question of do you get a better device (Say a Foundation Passport) or do you just get a cheaper device every year when they are on sale?

Or do you just use multisig for free and call it a day.....

-Dave


 

[Pmalek]

Once again, 100% my fault *I* broke it. But, without a part # to get the correct screen I don't know why the replacement didn't work. And without a schematic I could not have someone troubleshoot it the other way.
The flip side is at least it was cheap (Sub $90)

I am sorry if this was already covered in this thread (my old age is getting the better of me), but is anything written on the screen when you take it apart that could be a reference to the exact model number of the part? Based on that, you could perhaps find out which exact model to look for. What does customer support say?

[DaveF]

Once again, 100% my fault *I* broke it. But, without a part # to get the correct screen I don't know why the replacement didn't work. And without a schematic I could not have someone troubleshoot it the other way.
The flip side is at least it was cheap (Sub $90)

I am sorry if this was already covered in this thread (my old age is getting the better of me), but is anything written on the screen when you take it apart that could be a reference to the exact model number of the part? Based on that, you could perhaps find out which exact model to look for. What does customer support say?

Post with picture:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5489641.msg63966091#msg63966091
A few posts above that you can see the rest of it taken apart.
But no matter where I looked I could not get a screen that came close to those part #s with similar specifications. (one cross reference had it as a 14" laptop screen)

Customer support said that damage was not covered. No parts available for sale. I had already decided to take it apart so I didn't press the issue.

-Dave

[Hispo]

To me, it is always been kind of understandable why some hardware wallet companies (specially the open source ones) need to cut costs when comes to the quality of the hardware they sell.
Because of the nature of their product being open to analyze for everyone, they can only make money out their hardware, that means selling their plastic for more it is actually worth in the market. Those hardware wallet manufacturers do not charge neither for their firmware updates, nor their update for their software interfaces, so they are encouraged to make their wallets as cheap as possible for them to produce, and then make money from the premium.

Perhaps it is not an approach which everyone likes, but it would be worse if they charged for firmware/software.

[m2017]

To me, it is always been kind of understandable why some hardware wallet companies (specially the open source ones) need to cut costs when comes to the quality of the hardware they sell.

But no company saves on marketing, which goes a little against your theory about "good" producers with open source software.

Because of the nature of their product being open to analyze for everyone, they can only make money out their hardware, that means selling their plastic for more it is actually worth in the market.

They make money on the product as a whole, not just on the plastic, but also on the (recognition) of the brand. Basically, just like any manufacturer of anything, be it Apple phones or Ferrari cars (just don't tell me that this junk costs exactly that much).

Those hardware wallet manufacturers do not charge neither for their firmware updates, nor their update for their software interfaces, so they are encouraged to make their wallets as cheap as possible for them to produce, and then make money from the premium.

It sounds like some of these manufacturers are saints. To me, they are all the same, because it is a business aimed at making a profit. Any business tries to reduce its costs and maximize profitability.

Perhaps it is not an approach which everyone likes, but it would be worse if they charged for firmware/software.

You just gave them the idea of ​​a monthly fee for using the device / firmware / access to the software.

[Hispo]

...

Don't get me wrong, I am aware those are companies and they will have profit as their priority, cutting expenses and maximizing the inflow of money.
But I just wanted to point out the fact they cannot (for now) charge for software, because their software is supposed to be open for anyone to verify and make their own DIY wallets (there is a lot of tutorials on how they can be done on YouTube).

It is a business model I have noticed since I joined the world of open source hardware wallets, they sell their hardware at overprice because in the most of the cases, it is their only source of income. That explains why they are also encouraged to release new hardwares now and then, then more coin compatibilities and new features which their previous models did not have. Hardware is their main source of income.

[dkbit98]

Yeah, but with the touchscreen not working it's a paperweight.

Right, I forgot about that.
I guess you need to have screen protection for Keystone same like for smartphones, or make one yourself and order online with custom dimensions.
This is why I would like to see more hardware wallets adding Gorilla glass protection.

[NotATether]

This is the scourge of the modern world, when it is more profitable for manufacturers to sell physically low-quality devices, otherwise the company’s profits will fall (or will not grow), investors will not want to invest money, and the company will not prosper. This creates a vicious circle of capitalism.

Most of these hardware wallet companies do not have investors or only have small-time investors. This isn't your typical Fortune 500 company.

Agree, it is better to sell several HW devices to one user and get x3 profit from him than to sell one device for 10 years for x1 profit.

But that is exactly how you're supposed to be using a hardware wallet - one device for 10 years or even longer. These devices are not supposed to get obsolete. This isn't a Macbook or something like that (and if you ask me, even that sort of sophisticated tech should not become obsolete that fast - it's maddening!)

[Pmalek]

But that is exactly how you're supposed to be using a hardware wallet - one device for 10 years or even longer. These devices are not supposed to get obsolete.

That's not the world we live in, and we haven't lived in such a world for a long time. Electronic devices aren't meant to last. Preferably, they will last the duration of the warranty and won't have to be replaced by new ones, but when the warranty period expires, they should break after which the consumers will be incentivized to purchase new devices. Hardware wallet manufacturers live from sales. If they don't sell enough, they'll have to thing of some subscription-based profit-making. Maybe bullshit like Ledger Recover will appear in new shapes and forms.