IRS FORM 1040 "Digital Assets

[larry_vw_1955]

IRS Form 1040 now says:

At any time during 2023, did you: (a) receive (as a reward, award, or payment for property or services); or (b) sell,
exchange, or otherwise dispose of a digital asset (or a financial interest in a digital asset)? (See instructions.)


I guess it's always said that? I didn't think you had to tell them anything about anything you received, just if you spent something. It won't be long before they're going to have a part (c) if you own any digital assets then please fill out form 1040-CRYPTO.

1040-CRYPTO will be where you have to list out every single digital asset you have control over all the details so they can look it all up on the blockchain and monitor you even closer.  Having to explain to them crypto you received but never spent or anything seems overly intrusive. But now you have to do that if you're American.  

Say a friend sends you some crypto as a gift. They probably want to know about that.

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[Poker Player]

I have said it around here and there were people who disagreed with me, but I am on the same page: the major countries want to control cryptocurrency transactions in the same way they control banking transactions. I imagine they've figured out that it's a better way for them to fight the power they take away from them than banning them.

[LoyceV]

Here (in the Netherlands), income in any currency has always been taxable. You have to report it by yourself. The same with money in crypto (above a certain amount). If you don't report it, you'll have a hard time answering the questions once you buy a Lambo.
So far, they haven't asked for addresses yet, but if they ever do, I'll have fun with vanitygen

the major countries want to control cryptocurrency transactions in the same way they control banking transactions.

Regulation just means crypto is maturing. I expect it to take years though, in which they slowly add more laws.

[larry_vw_1955]

Here (in the Netherlands), income in any currency has always been taxable.

bitcoin is not currency here in the usa it's property. that has never made any sense to me. if it's really property then why aren't bitcoin holders paying annual property taxes on their holdings? you have to pay property taxes on your car or boat or house every year. why not bitcoin? that's why i don't buy the argument that bitcoin is "property".

Bitcoins are property, not currency, IRS says regarding taxes
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-bitcoin-irs/bitcoins-are-property-not-currency-irs-says-regarding-taxes-idUSBREA2O1LR20140325/

You have to report it by yourself. The same with money in crypto (above a certain amount). If you don't report it, you'll have a hard time answering the questions once you buy a Lambo.

questions by who?

So far, they haven't asked for addresses yet, but if they ever do, I'll have fun with vanitygen

they would need to be legitimate addresses that hold the relevant funds

Regulation just means crypto is maturing. I expect it to take years though, in which they slowly add more laws.

always slow to act and then get it wrong anyway. there shouldn't be any taxes or anything on bitcoin UNTIL it is cashed out.

[LoyceV]

questions by who?

Your exchange, your bank, your Lambo dealer, your tax agency.... The list of potential questions is quite long.
Al Capone got caught on tax fraud. I don't want my money to be "off the books".

[larry_vw_1955]

Your exchange, your bank, your Lambo dealer, your tax agency.... The list of potential questions is quite long.

you think so? you think it would be any different for someone that checked off the "yes" box in one single year and then 15 years later started using their 10 or 100 bitcoins?

"oh we see you checked off the yes box that you had received crypto way back in 2015 so you don't need to answer any questions even though you're buying houses and boats and lambos in 2030. you're such a good citizen, we're going to give you a reward too. you don't have to pay any taxes on anything!"

Al Capone got caught on tax fraud. I don't want my money to be "off the books".

clicking "yes" in a single box without providing any further documentation though. that's sketchy. it doesn't prove anything. they should make it more comprehensive or get rid of that declaration entirely.

there should be an entire form dealing with "digital assets" that someone has to go through and fill out. if they received any crypto, they should have to declare every single address, the balance the date everything.

there is also a problem i don't even know if the IRS keeps old tax returns past 5 or 10 years so what you declared 15 years ago with a yes/no box they might not even have a record of anymore.   none of this seems to be on very solid footing.

[zasad@]

larry_vw_1955,I think that if someone suddenly starts living like a millionaire, then the tax office will have questions for him, regardless of the checkmarks in the old declaration. The tax inspector sees a person’s official income, and when his expenses exceed his income, this will be a reason for an audit. The only way this is done in my country is that you exchange cryptocurrency for cash and rent luxury real estate and Lambo for cash.But this method also has many disadvantages.

[larry_vw_1955]

larry_vw_1955,I think that if someone suddenly starts living like a millionaire, then the tax office will have questions for him, regardless of the checkmarks in the old declaration.

exactly so it really doesn't matter how you got the bitcoin if you're selling alot of it then you are going to answer questions regardless whether you declared it to the irs or not. get ready to answer alot of questions. starting with your bank.

you're likely to be reported by your bank for money laundering from the way this sounds like:

https://www.occ.treas.gov/topics/supervision-and-examination/bank-operations/financial-crime/suspicious-activity-reports/index-suspicious-activity-reports.html

Under the Bank Secrecy Act (BSA), financial institutions are required to assist U.S. government agencies in detecting and preventing money laundering, and:

Keep records of cash purchases of negotiable instruments;
File reports of cash transactions exceeding $10,000 (daily aggregate amount); and
Report suspicious activity that might signal criminal activity (e.g., money laundering, tax evasion).

The tax inspector sees a person’s official income, and when his expenses exceed his income, this will be a reason for an audit.

it has nothing to do with the tax inspector in the usa. you can fool the irs but you can't fool the bank. the bank turns you over to the us government and they open an investigation into you to see if you're a criminal. you're guilty until proven innocent. MAYBE.

I'm not so sure if united states citizens are required to file FBAR for holding bitcoin. i'm sure no one does but it seems like TO BE CONSISTENT, the government needs to update that to requre it of them. if they meet the criteria.

https://www.fincen.gov/report-foreign-bank-and-financial-accounts

Who Must File the FBAR?

A United States person that has a financial interest in or signature authority over foreign financial accounts must file an FBAR if the aggregate value of the foreign financial accounts exceeds $10,000 at any time during the calendar year.

the penalties for not filing FBAR I think are pretty stiff. but i would have to look into it.

[Poker Player]

Well you are lucky to live in the USA, OP, look what happens in Europe:

The European Union (EU) has adopted an effective ban on crypto transactions committed through non-custodial wallets that have not been verified. This measure forms part of the broader Anti-Money Laundering (AML) directives aimed at combating financial crimes. A majority of the European Parliament‘s leading commission on March 19 approved the decision, and this stand implies a unified stand against anonymous transactions.

A previous draft had foreseen a limit of €1,000, below which transactions would be exempt, but this has now been removed. They want to control everything. I think the global trend worldwide is going to be like that, unless pro-bitcoin politicians come to power somewhere.

Regulation just means crypto is maturing. I expect it to take years though, in which they slowly add more laws.

And you like to be left without privacy? The day your government knows all your Bitcoin addresses like it knows about your bank accounts you're not going to have any privacy about it.

[LoyceV]

you think so? you think it would be any different for someone that checked off the "yes" box in one single year

Here, that would be tax fraud. If you hide your money from taxes, you're on your own when caught.

Well you are lucky to live in the USA, OP, look what happens in Europe:

The European Union (EU) has adopted an effective ban on crypto transactions committed through non-custodial wallets that have not been verified. This measure forms part of the broader Anti-Money Laundering (AML) directives aimed at combating financial crimes. A majority of the European Parliament‘s leading commission on March 19 approved the decision, and this stand implies a unified stand against anonymous transactions.

I can't take a site filled with ads and links to their own site seriously. When I search for this, all I find is dozens of other crypto related sites posting the same "news".
Here's an opposing article: Let's Debunk Claims That the EU is Banning Anonymous Crypto Transactions or Self-Custodial Wallets. After skimming through, I'm not worried.

[avikz]

Absolute surveillance!

That's exactly what the American Tax authority wants to achieve. When there's an option to declare your digital assets in the tax form, if you don't show anything, that's an offence for you. I am sure a lot of other governments will also follow such things in their own tax forms. My country has done that already and they are comparing reports sent by the local exchanges with our declared assets.

All the best! 

[larry_vw_1955]

Well you are lucky to live in the USA, OP, look what happens in Europe:

The European Union (EU) has adopted an effective ban on crypto transactions committed through non-custodial wallets that have not been verified. This measure forms part of the broader Anti-Money Laundering (AML) directives aimed at combating financial crimes. A majority of the European Parliament‘s leading commission on March 19 approved the decision, and this stand implies a unified stand against anonymous transactions.

A previous draft had foreseen a limit of €1,000, below which transactions would be exempt, but this has now been removed. They want to control everything. I think the global trend worldwide is going to be like that, unless pro-bitcoin politicians come to power somewhere.

that's a crazy law. but i think it only applies to exchanges in the EU. exchanges in other parts of the world i don't see why they would have to kiss the EU's rear end.

Here, that would be tax fraud. If you hide your money from taxes, you're on your own when caught.

but why should someone have to pay taxes on something they haven't even sold yet? there's a chance it could go to zero eventually and yet they had to pay taxes on it before they even sold it. how is that making any sense?

Here's an opposing article: Let's Debunk Claims That the EU is Banning Anonymous Crypto Transactions or Self-Custodial Wallets. After skimming through, I'm not worried.

So you can't buy things using bitcoin for more than ten thousand pounds. No teslas for people in europe i guess! not with bitcoin. that makes bitcoin less attractive as a payment mechanism for real world items. no doubt about that. now if you want to buy a tesla, you have to cash it out to a bank account in the EU and then see if they report you for suspicious large cash electronic deposits into your account maybe answer their questions before they unfreeze your bank account til you have answered their questions to their satisfaction. oh and of course you had to provide your photo ID and everything to coinbase or whoever you are cashing out from. and pay whatever fees exist for coinbase to cash you out. sounds like a real hassle. oh right. bitcoin was meant to be able to pay people directly IN BITCOIN.   not anymore i guess. not always! not when the government steps in and handicaps it. which is what it is doing.

handicapping bitcoin

don't try and "structure" your EU payments that's against the law. don't try and do anything. member states might even put lower limits in place make sure you obey those too. if you live in that member state...

[Poker Player]

I can't take a site filled with ads and links to their own site seriously. When I search for this, all I find is dozens of other crypto related sites posting the same "news".
Here's an opposing article: Let's Debunk Claims That the EU is Banning Anonymous Crypto Transactions or Self-Custodial Wallets. After skimming through, I'm not worried.

Very interesting. I had seen the news on several sites but obviously to quote I chose only one. The thing is that if it is not correct it is a case of fake news that has spread all over the crypto press. I will wait to see if this is clarified before commenting further.

[LoyceV]

but why should someone have to pay taxes on something they haven't even sold yet?

Government wants a share of everything here. I didn't make those laws

there's a chance it could go to zero eventually and yet they had to pay taxes on it before they even sold it. how is that making any sense?

It's up to the tax payer to either sell a percentage each year, or find other means to pay the taxes. And the rates have been going up in the past few years. I don't like it but can't help it either.

bitcoin was meant to be able to pay people directly IN BITCOIN.

Nobody said governments wouldn't try to force their way. Bitcoin still works fine.

The thing is that if it is not correct it is a case of fake news that has spread all over the crypto press.

Journalists are supposed to fact check before publishing. But I guess there aren't many real journalists left.

[zasad@]

larry_vw_1955,I think that if someone suddenly starts living like a millionaire, then the tax office will have questions for him, regardless of the checkmarks in the old declaration.

exactly so it really doesn't matter how you got the bitcoin if you're selling alot of it then you are going to answer questions regardless whether you declared it to the irs or not. get ready to answer alot of questions. starting with your bank.

you're likely to be reported by your bank for money laundering from the way this sounds like:

https://www.occ.treas.gov/topics/supervision-and-examination/bank-operations/financial-crime/suspicious-activity-reports/index-suspicious-activity-reports.html

Under the Bank Secrecy Act (BSA), financial institutions are required to assist U.S. government agencies in detecting and preventing money laundering, and:

Keep records of cash purchases of negotiable instruments;
File reports of cash transactions exceeding $10,000 (daily aggregate amount); and
Report suspicious activity that might signal criminal activity (e.g., money laundering, tax evasion).

The tax inspector sees a person’s official income, and when his expenses exceed his income, this will be a reason for an audit.

it has nothing to do with the tax inspector in the usa. you can fool the irs but you can't fool the bank. the bank turns you over to the us government and they open an investigation into you to see if you're a criminal. you're guilty until proven innocent. MAYBE.

I'm not so sure if united states citizens are required to file FBAR for holding bitcoin. i'm sure no one does but it seems like TO BE CONSISTENT, the government needs to update that to requre it of them. if they meet the criteria.

https://www.fincen.gov/report-foreign-bank-and-financial-accounts

Who Must File the FBAR?

A United States person that has a financial interest in or signature authority over foreign financial accounts must file an FBAR if the aggregate value of the foreign financial accounts exceeds $10,000 at any time during the calendar year.

the penalties for not filing FBAR I think are pretty stiff. but i would have to look into it.

We've been talking to you about these topics for a while now.

If you don't want to get in trouble with banks and tax authorities, it is possible to exchange cryptocurrencies for cash if you have a good partner. I'm sure banks are required to report to the IRS the receipts to a US citizen's account and outgoing payments if a certain limit is exceeded.
But you are out of luck because your country has the toughest tax regulation.

[larry_vw_1955]

It's up to the tax payer to either sell a percentage each year, or find other means to pay the taxes. And the rates have been going up in the past few years. I don't like it but can't help it either.

at some point, i think bitcoin might be against the law in the united states. either that or no one wants to use it because the irs/government makes it so unattractive to get involved in from a reporting point of view.

Nobody said governments wouldn't try to force their way. Bitcoin still works fine.

as long as the purchase is not for more than 10,000 euros it will work fine. they can't do it if it's more than that.

But you are out of luck because your country has the toughest tax regulation.

i wouldn't call it the toughest, i would call it overly complicated though. for example, the irs could require all americans bitcoin addresses be setup in such a way that anytime a miner mined a transaction from one of their addresses, the tax was automatically taken out. just like they do with sales taxes and things like that. why place that burden on the american citizen to figure it all out. then they could impose other fees too like an annual property tax that miners would submit on their behalf every year. to debit all bitcoin account holders. i'm suprised the irs hasn't thought of doing something like that. 

[LoyceV]

the irs could require all americans bitcoin addresses be setup in such a way that anytime a miner mined a transaction from one of their addresses, the tax was automatically taken out.

There is no such thing as "American Bitcoin addresses". Miners can only mine valid transactions, which means your own wallet would have to create an "IRS change" output. That's not going to happen.

[zasad@]

But you are out of luck because your country has the toughest tax regulation.

i wouldn't call it the toughest, i would call it overly complicated though. for example, the irs could require all americans bitcoin addresses be setup in such a way that anytime a miner mined a transaction from one of their addresses, the tax was automatically taken out. just like they do with sales taxes and things like that. why place that burden on the american citizen to figure it all out. then they could impose other fees too like an annual property tax that miners would submit on their behalf every year. to debit all bitcoin account holders. i'm suprised the irs hasn't thought of doing something like that. 

It seems to me that you are very tired of reading other people's opinions. If you want to be in American jurisdiction, then study the law so you know how to break it and minimize your risks. Any demands from your tax office must be legal, and if you do not know the laws, then you have the right to a defender/lawyer and so on.

[larry_vw_1955]

There is no such thing as "American Bitcoin addresses". Miners can only mine valid transactions, which means your own wallet would have to create an "IRS change" output. That's not going to happen.

why wouldn't it happen? it could technically happen. all the governments of the world unite to form a special multisig bitcoin address where every transaction has to have a "change" output to that address for paying taxes. then the governments would force bitcoin to put that into the consensus rules that a transaction had to have that change address and it had to be XX% of the total sum of all utxo inputs to the transaction. very simple. if the governments got together and demanded that then it would get baked into the protocol. because the alternative would be prosecution.

this is a better way because then no one has to worry about paying taxes on anything bitcoin related. it would all happen automatically. the government could force the same thing on other blockchains if they got big enough like ethereum. very simple way to make sure that people pay their taxes.

[pinggoki]

So far, they haven't asked for addresses yet, but if they ever do, I'll have fun with vanitygen

Don't give them ideas, who knows who will see this post and they work for the government, but if that comes to that point, vanitygen might be the answer. Thankfully, the government in my country is all bark no bite when it comes to cryptocurrency taxation, never been pestered or messed by the BIR (IRS equivalent in my country) and I've even got friends that have been putting a lot of money in the bank and then quickly getting it out and so far, they're not even raised any suspicions despite being banned or having that bank account suspended. I hope that this will be the case for us in a long time, I don't want to pay my taxes when the money gets pocketed by the corrupt politicians.