Claw Machines: a category of gambling?

[FinneysTrueVision]

It is not considered to be gambling because the element of fairness is absent due to the owner of the machine being able to adjust its sensitivity any time they wish. Customers have no way of knowing beforehand that it is rigged against them, you just have to assume that it might be. There is no way to come up with odds of actually getting a prize, but the odds can be zero in some cases.

For games of luck, participants are betting with variables that they are familiar with. With these rigged games, however, you are going in entirely blind, not knowing whether you are flushing money away.

[Findingnemo]

That claw machine is difficult when you play it; you need two other tokens to play it. It's rare to win that claw machine, but there are others who are obsessed with it and have fun with it because the others seem to have a technique to do it. And I don't know what that is.

Second, can that be considered gambling? because you are not betting on anything, but once you can drop a token, then you can perform clawing; whatever you get that can be stuck
in the claw is yours.

A few months ago, I even found it in my brother's shop.
Claw machines like this have been set so that claws are not easy to grip dolls, so more experiments will be done to try to take dolls.

Believe it or not, according to some people or according to technicians, there are several techniques that can be done such as swinging the claw and then dropping it or waiting until the claw time ends, or before the claw drops automatically.

I tried everything but some did fail, but sometimes with the swing technique I can pick up some dummy with a lot of trying.
If this is said to be gambling, maybe it could be like that because there will be an addictive effect to keep trying and trying again until you get a doll.

Claw machines come under the arcade games category not really under gambling but for the sake we can say we spent a penny to take that call. Claw machines are rigged but users who has skills know how to make use of it, like you said swinging technique is one of the effective method to get the prize but we don't really play for the prize but just to experience it right?

[Muchiratsky]

I didn't say it's an actual scam, though. It's a personal point of view, and I'm sure I'm not the only one seeing it that way. Also, being persistent means spending more time and money on something that would probably be cheaper if you buy directly. You'll be spending a lot more trying to get plush toys from claw machines than buying these toys from actual toy stores. There are people who are good in playing claw machines but I'll bet there are a whole lot more who just end up spending on tokens and getting nothing. It's generally a good place to waste time and money. Note the term "waste"

Damn right, are they a scam? I am not exactly sure, but the odds are certainly not in your favor. God, these are awful machines. They have a worse grip than a newborn baby, and 9 out of 10 times when you pick something up, it'll fall right next to the exit latch. I've remembered them since childhood, and I don't recall ever winning anything. Can they be considered gambling? Certainly yes. Not all claw machines have stuffed animals inside; there are others that feature expensive devices, watches, electronics, or even cash prizes. There are even found in casinos, while they're spreading like a virus at almost every location.

Well it looks like to win, you'll have to make multiple attempts. I've seen someone on youtube that it takes a few consecutive tries before the clamp becomes stiffer or more rigid. If that's the case, I don't see why it's not a scam. People would be drawn to play amidst multiple losses just to get a prize that's not worth the amount of the tokens you've used. But I understand some people who feel that this needs perseverance. I just don't share their few. It's not something that I would want to persevere for since I see it as a waste of money. The process is even more annoying that enjoying. Again this is my perspective and, of course, there are people who do enjoy this activity despite the disappointments that come with actually getting a prize.

[mu_enrico]

It's not a game of skill, many people in this thread said it, and I agree with them. It's an illusion that the creators of this game bore in mind when they were making it. It would be a game of skill, more or less, if after you captured the prize it were guaranteed that you'll get it. Unfortunately, we all know that more often than not it's not the case.

True, many people don't know that the grip strength can be tweaked, so that it is loose for x amount of rounds.
This way even if the player aligns it perfectly with the target, the prize will fall prematurely before being delivered to the hole.
So two factors play and contribute to the winning chance: (1) grip strength and (2) positioning. Basically, whether or not the player is skilled, there is still randomness in the game.

[taufik123]

-snip-
Claw machines are rigged but users who has skills know how to make use of it, like you said swinging technique is one of the effective method to get the prize but we don't really play for the prize but just to experience it right?

When the claw machine has been rigged, of course, it will be a claw machine that is difficult to conquer.
But there will always be other ways or tricks to be able to overcome it and related to the swing technique is just one of the tricks, but I myself saw how technicians who tune the claw machine are very easy to use the swing technique, but they also tune how strong the claw grip is.
The grip of the claws will be strong when you have inserted more coins

Of course, what is sought is actually not a doll or other gift, but how to be able to conquer the claw machine and feel the sensation.
Some claw machines also give great prizes such as iPhones and other gadgets.

[EarnOnVictor]

-snip-
Do you consider this a category of gambling game?

Yes, I consider this as a gambling game but not the typical one. For the fact that you use your money to play it, and you are playing for the purpose of what it will give you in return, then you are taking a risk for something which is gambling. This is the kind that little children can even participate in as well, and as a matter of fact, they are doing it. This may just be when they and their parents visit such a mall with such a facility, they may go there, put their coin and try their luck. It is so joyful to these children if they win something in this arrangement, which is why I can term it as light gambling with a possible little attachment. It's a way to have extra fun at malls aside from shopping.

What are the chances on long run?

While playing this kind of light game, do not create much importance to it than for the fun for the moment. And as for me, I see the chance here to be 50/50. You are just trying your luck, but in a light way, nothing is to be taken seriously here. It is not a place where you can hit that Jackpot.

Skills matter, or do you have to be lucky, nevertheless?

It's practical my friend, no skills will help you win more, you only have to rely on luck. Just like casinos, the system of this machine has been structured in a certain way, it is only luck that will deliver the winning in this regard.

[entertheabyss]

It is not considered to be gambling because the element of fairness is absent due to the owner of the machine being able to adjust its sensitivity any time they wish. Customers have no way of knowing beforehand that it is rigged against them, you just have to assume that it might be. There is no way to come up with odds of actually getting a prize, but the odds can be zero in some cases.

For games of luck, participants are betting with variables that they are familiar with. With these rigged games, however, you are going in entirely blind, not knowing whether you are flushing money away.

Rigged games are caused by the accessible data been leaked out for hackers. We should be on zero pay whenever the system is against our predictions and accuracy is shortened. Flushing money away is not our fault because we have no idea how the system operates and the laydown codes that's been inputed in data files of the system, thereby leading to be another form of insecurities. There ought to be existence of fairness in the system but when I doubt if they will be maintained.

[Hirose UK]

It's not a game of skill, many people in this thread said it, and I agree with them. It's an illusion that the creators of this game bore in mind when they were making it. It would be a game of skill, more or less, if after you captured the prize it were guaranteed that you'll get it. Unfortunately, we all know that more often than not it's not the case.

True, many people don't know that the grip strength can be tweaked, so that it is loose for x amount of rounds.
This way even if the player aligns it perfectly with the target, the prize will fall prematurely before being delivered to the hole.
So two factors play and contribute to the winning chance: (1) grip strength and (2) positioning. Basically, whether or not the player is skilled, there is still randomness in the game.

Indeed, this game can be regulated in such way by the management and the working program can be changed at any time to make the game much more difficult to win and this game is like the Western Dream Arcade game machine where the drive that pushes the coins can be adjusted according to the manager wishes.
Everything is aimed at preventing gamblers from achieving big wins or jackpots and only luck can really influence whether they can win big or not.
It is important to remember that all machine games like this can be easily manipulated and we must be careful when playing them, unless we are playing for fun and entertainment.

What is clear is that luck will really be the main basis for achieving success and even though the strength of the grip has been adjusted, but luck is on our side, we will definitely get this prize.
Skills in machine games like this are just nonsense and if think have the skills to win prizes and keep paying then in the end will suffer big losses.

[nullama]

~snip~
True, many people don't know that the grip strength can be tweaked, so that it is loose for x amount of rounds.
This way even if the player aligns it perfectly with the target, the prize will fall prematurely before being delivered to the hole.
So two factors play and contribute to the winning chance: (1) grip strength and (2) positioning. Basically, whether or not the player is skilled, there is still randomness in the game.

Interesting.

In that case I guess there must be some kind of standard or something that can be tested to make sure the machine is working at the correct level of randomness.

At least gambling machines have to pass certain standards criteria to have the license to operate.

Otherwise you could just have the grip always loose and never pay out the prizes.

[South Park]

A few months ago, I even found it in my brother's shop.
Claw machines like this have been set so that claws are not easy to grip dolls, so more experiments will be done to try to take dolls.

Believe it or not, according to some people or according to technicians, there are several techniques that can be done such as swinging the claw and then dropping it or waiting until the claw time ends, or before the claw drops automatically.

I tried everything but some did fail, but sometimes with the swing technique I can pick up some dummy with a lot of trying.
If this is said to be gambling, maybe it could be like that because there will be an addictive effect to keep trying and trying again until you get a doll.

Claw machines come under the arcade games category not really under gambling but for the sake we can say we spent a penny to take that call. Claw machines are rigged but users who has skills know how to make use of it, like you said swinging technique is one of the effective method to get the prize but we don't really play for the prize but just to experience it right?

I do not really see how claw machines could be classified as an arcade, in a regular arcade you put a coin in the machine and then you play for as long as your skill allows it, claw machines do not really follow this formula and are way closer to what you could see in a slot machine, so at least to me they are without a form of gambling and one that I do not find to be entertaining at all, while at the same time the prizes that you can get are often stuff that you would not even buy directly on your own.

[alegotardo]

Do you consider this a category of gambling game? What are the chances on long run? Skills matter, or do you have to be lucky, nevertheless?

Never! This cannot be considered gambling because certainly the factor that exists for you to win the prize is not skill: It is just the machine's profit.
As long as the machine has not received a pre-defined amount of bets, it will not release your prize even if you are super skilled.
Many ignorant people also talk about "strategies" to win, but this is a myth.

The only way to win money is to sit for a few hours near a machine and just watch other people playing... find out what the machine's pattern is (amount of bets before releasing the prize), count the moves and be ready to bet only when the next prize release is close.

Ok!? This is not a gambling game.

[DabsPoorVersion]

Do you consider this a category of gambling game? What are the chances on long run? Skills matter, or do you have to be lucky, nevertheless?

Never! This cannot be considered gambling because certainly the factor that exists for you to win the prize is not skill: It is just the machine's profit.
As long as the machine has not received a pre-defined amount of bets, it will not release your prize even if you are super skilled.
Many ignorant people also talk about "strategies" to win, but this is a myth.

The only way to win money is to sit for a few hours near a machine and just watch other people playing... find out what the machine's pattern is (amount of bets before releasing the prize), count the moves and be ready to bet only when the next prize release is close.

Ok!? This is not a gambling game.

I disagree. If we analyze the claw machine game, there are similarities we can compare to consider it as gambling. Just like requiring an individual to prepare payment to play the game, chance to win the game as the outcome cannot be determine easily or using a skill, and of course, the chance to win the price.

In some other country, claw machine game is considered as illegal game, they even ban it as it is considered as gambling. It just that we are used to see it most of the time as one of the activities to give enjoyment to kids especially in malls, amusement parks, etc, but the fact that it has an element of gambling and can also be addictive for some, this should be considered as gambling.

[Findingnemo]

...I do not really see how claw machines could be classified as an arcade, in a regular arcade you put a coin in the machine and then you play for as long as your skill allows it, claw machines do not really follow this formula and are way closer to what you could see in a slot machine, so at least to me they are without a form of gambling and one that I do not find to be entertaining at all, while at the same time the prizes that you can get are often stuff that you would not even buy directly on your own.

But, it's an arcade game or at least that's how it has been in the legal terms which is why everyone is allowed to play using claw machines especially kids.

We can say the claw machine is rigged and all but still it needs skill to press down the button at the right second to get the rewards. Moreover it's not addictive that we correlated with the term gambling.

[nullama]

~snip~
But, it's an arcade game or at least that's how it has been in the legal terms which is why everyone is allowed to play using claw machines especially kids.

We can say the claw machine is rigged and all but still it needs skill to press down the button at the right second to get the rewards. Moreover it's not addictive that we correlated with the term gambling.

Yeah, I agree with this.

There is a legal distinction between games of just randomness and games of skill.

If you have randomness then it's basically a casino and you need a license, but if it is a skill based game, then it's just a form of entertainment, like a fair for example.

There is a legal distinction as you mentioned.

[TopTort777]

Yeah, I agree with this.

There is a legal distinction between games of just randomness and games of skill.

If you have randomness then it's basically a casino and you need a license, but if it is a skill based game, then it's just a form of entertainment, like a fair for example.

There is a legal distinction as you mentioned.

Why then loot boxes does not require license, when they all are about randomness?

At amusement parks I saw claw machines with candies where "each game is a win" rule was set. Even though it makes random almost zero, there is a timer and little kid is given 99 seconds to grab his prize. Not every kid is agile and in stress situation can get a candy in 99sec. Can this be considered as gambling? Does this require license? What about underaged gambling?

[Doan9269]

It is not considered to be gambling because the element of fairness is absent due to the owner of the machine being able to adjust its sensitivity any time they wish. Customers have no way of knowing beforehand that it is rigged against them, you just have to assume that it might be. There is no way to come up with odds of actually getting a prize, but the odds can be zero in some cases.

For games of luck, participants are betting with variables that they are familiar with. With these rigged games, however, you are going in entirely blind, not knowing whether you are flushing money away.

Its actually a game of luck, we cannot completely take that for gambling because it has many things that point at the way its been played not to be like that of gambling games, as you have pointed out, it is just for the people to all try their best and make use of the opportunity to se if they can win any physical material, money or items from them by playing or trying their luck.

[o48o]

-cut-
Personally i don't see them as gambling because they are proven to be rigged many times, so i would classify them as scams.

But you have heard stories that casinos scam their customers. With surprised KYC before withdrawal for example. Yet I believe you do gamble anyway. Even if claw machines are scam, they are kind of a soft scam They wont scam you for thousands or millions. And you will get a prize in the end with some persistence, while it will take hell of a time and luck to win jackpot even if you are super persistent. As a light form of gambling, claw machines does not require special licenses to operate. What I say, that even if they are scam, nobody cares as long as they get their plushie

Strangely you can compare these scams, as in both cases they are offering something they aren't programmed to offer. Same way in claw machines you can see the main price and know it's probably rigged, you can see the exchange / casino scam, when you see the part saying they don't require KYC.

Because every company that's handling money for their customers is a financial institution, and financial institutions are obligated by law to follow regulations, if they themselves want to keep on cashing out their profits.

Pure, no fiat-money crypto casinos have avoided these regulations in the past, because crypto wasn't regulated. But now when transactions are becoming taxable in majority of the 1st world, that changes.

Smaller casinos might flow under a radar, and not every casino is so strict about it, as KYCing everyone is a costly operation. But always expect a KYC, like you were (not) expecting spanish inquisition.

[Wapfika]

It is not considered to be gambling because the element of fairness is absent due to the owner of the machine being able to adjust its sensitivity any time they wish. Customers have no way of knowing beforehand that it is rigged against them, you just have to assume that it might be. There is no way to come up with odds of actually getting a prize, but the odds can be zero in some cases.

For games of luck, participants are betting with variables that they are familiar with. With these rigged games, however, you are going in entirely blind, not knowing whether you are flushing money away.

Its actually a game of luck, we cannot completely take that for gambling because it has many things that point at the way its been played not to be like that of gambling games, as you have pointed out, it is just for the people to all try their best and make use of the opportunity to se if they can win any physical material, money or items from them by playing or trying their luck.

In addition to this, Even 3rd party game providers like slot games doesn’t disclose their source code for the games which is why there’s no way to verify the fairness of the game. They are considered as gambling not because fairness is available but rather people risk money in exchange for a chance to win.

Anything that involves risking money for a chance to gain is considered as gambling even though it’s probably fair or not. Actually, being rigged games is more gambling since it’s more hard or impossible to win on this game depending on the casino setup.

[Betwrong]

~snip~
It's not a game of skill, many people in this thread said it, and I agree with them. It's an illusion that the creators of this game bore in mind when they were making it. It would be a game of skill, more or less, if after you captured the prize it were guaranteed that you'll get it. Unfortunately, we all know that more often than not it's not the case.

I have seen people winning prizes at some claw machines, so it is possible.

Of course some machines might be rigged, as every machine is different. But in theory, it should be possible to win.

No one is saying winning is not possible I'd myself won on claw machines couple of times in the past. I was just saying "it's not a game of skill". Slots are also not a game of skill, but that doesn't mean you can't win on them. I won more than $200 several times staking only 20 cents, and some lucky people win millions.

~

True, many people don't know that the grip strength can be tweaked, so that it is loose for x amount of rounds.
This way even if the player aligns it perfectly with the target, the prize will fall prematurely before being delivered to the hole.
So two factors play and contribute to the winning chance: (1) grip strength and (2) positioning. Basically, whether or not the player is skilled, there is still randomness in the game.

Exactly. I personally don't think that the grip strength can be tweaked in real time, but I'm sure the thing is designed the way that the grip is very weak and can easily lose the prize at any moment.

[tottong]

In addition to this, Even 3rd party game providers like slot games doesn’t disclose their source code for the games which is why there’s no way to verify the fairness of the game. They are considered as gambling not because fairness is available but rather people risk money in exchange for a chance to win.

Talking about fairness, it is something that is difficult to achieve in gambling and people will do anything to win. Both game providers and players have something in common because what they are looking for is victory, so verifying fairness is something that is difficult for us to achieve.
People who gamble don't look at the fairness factor, but as you said, they think that risking money in gambling can give them a chance to win. Despite the fact that gambling is more about luck and not every time we are in a favorable condition.