Runes are now worthless and have killed Ordinals too

[pinggoki]

Finally, it was a matter of time before they become worthless, it's in our best interest that this has finally happened, I don't even think that runes have ever contributed anything to bitcoin besides the congestion of the network, hopefully we get to see more normal transaction fees and reasonable transaction fees now that runes are basically worthless. I still thank those people that have wasted their bitcoin though, some of them are doing something for the market of bitcoin so they still get some high five from me.

[ABCbits]

I was thinking about making OP_FALSE OP_IF ... OP_ENDIF non-standard, since BRC-20 usually put data less than 100 bytes.

I would not be happy with such a direct blocking, but I think I made my point clear already in other threads.

Of course projects using BRC-20 could now simply switch to Runes (as they could have done before to platforms like OpenAssets, Counterparty, RGB ...). But I think it's better to simply let BRC-20 die alone. I don't discard there could be some waves still but judging from what we've seen in the past weeks since the halving they will be much smaller and do no harm.

It's almost die, where some exchange (including Binance) already delist it. And such change will take some time, so it's possible BRC-20 will die or at least closer to die.

Such a measure would be considered arbitrary if there was no technical reason other to block a standard some do not like. Include me of course among those that don't like BRC-20 , but I think Bitcoin never should target any standard, only real vulnerabilities. So I personally would only support such a "direct block" if the OP_FALSE / OP_IF -> OP_ENDIF combination is really technically dangerous, allowing really malicious scripts, but is that a thing in Bitcoin Script? (I'm not knowledgeable enough to answer this question, but IMO the harm which can be done only is related to that the script size limit can be circunvented).

AFAIK from what I have read in the developer mailing list they don't consider this script to be a "bug" which should be "fixed". Except Luke-Jr, of course, but I think with his datacarriersize method he implemented in Bitcoin Knots, he found a reasonable way for nodes to block Ordinals as "data transactions" if they don't want to relay them.

AFAIK there's no security risk. But why should it considered as standard, when the script itself never executed (due to OP_FALSE in the beginning)?

[Wind_FURY]

Reading the posts saying Runes are stupid.

For me personally, Runes as a technology isn't that stupid. In the OP I'm referring more to the model to create a token whose only value lies in having a "creative name" and which can then be "minted" by anyone.

But Runes can also be used for things that make more sense, of course, like as a game currency, or as a crowdfunding platform. However, it would not make so much sense to create this kind of currency on Bitcoin due to the fees. The "magic" of Runes is much related to the same (imo stupid) "value proposition" than in BRC-20: having a "valuable" token on the "OG" Bitcoin blockchain. Very much like a NFT, but in a minimally fungible way.

By the way, Runes could be probably transferred via LN if their protocol includes timelocks and hashlocks. I don't know the protocol in detail however. This is something which can be added but adds some complexity to the algorithm (basically they need either a hard-coded way to do those locks or an own "Script language").

Casey Rodarmor described Runes as something like a serious protocol for memecoinery/shitcoinery because he was skeptical of "serious tokens". From my perspective if a person wants to do some shitcoinery on top of Bitcoin, then use the more efficient Runes, don't use BRC-20.

Reading the posts saying Runes are stupid.

Although absolutely true, at least Runes as a protocol for shitcoinery in Bitcoin is better for the blockchain than BRC-20. Runes data are stored directly in UTXOs which means they could be used in LN? Plus it won't be expanding the UTXO set like what Ordinals-based BRC-20 does. That's what many on-chain users want, no? For those spam transactions to be removed on-chain? I believe Runes is the technical development that could do it. The Lightning Network will be spammed though.

I think you forget the fact Runes use OP_RETURN to store the arbitrary data, where OP_RETURN output usually isn't stored on full node UTXO set.

To store token data, but there's nothing technically wrong with that, no?

[bitmover]

Now try to sell them all. Order books will be thick, but only on the ask side

Where Can I find the order book? Couldn't find anywhere 

I saw só many people saying that bitcoin feels would be forever high, and nft were going to dominate bitcoin blocks... it died so fast lol

In Brazil we call this "chicken fight". Ever saw a chicken flying? Lol

[JayJuanGee]

Now try to sell them all. Order books will be thick, but only on the ask side

Where Can I find the order book? Couldn't find anywhere 

I saw só many people saying that bitcoin feels would be forever high, and nft were going to dominate bitcoin blocks... it died so fast lol

In Brazil we call this "chicken fight". Ever saw a chicken flying? Lol

I will admit that I thought that the fees would stay higher for longer, and perhaps with a bit of uncertainty for several months.. .but, yeah we are ONLY about a month out and fees have been pretty damned reasonable for about the last week or so..

[Churchillvv]

Now try to sell them all. Order books will be thick, but only on the ask side

Where Can I find the order book? Couldn't find anywhere 

I saw só many people saying that bitcoin feels would be forever high, and nft were going to dominate bitcoin blocks... it died so fast lol

In Brazil we call this "chicken fight". Ever saw a chicken flying? Lol

I will admit that I thought that the fees would stay higher for longer, and perhaps with a bit of uncertainty for several months.. .but, yeah we are ONLY about a month out and fees have been pretty damned reasonable for about the last week or so..

Personally since I don't have enough bitcoin to move around I didn't feel much bordered apart from recieving my campaign payment which I use for investing gradually and since it's relatively small i just leave it on the exchange for some time before I send to my wallet.

But it's a surprise to see the big issue that had many threads discussing high tx fees and the effect of Runes and Ordinals shit die off without notice. Whatever was done to pull that shit out of bitcoin is highly appreciated.

[d5000]

But why should it considered as standard, when the script itself never executed (due to OP_FALSE in the beginning)?

I may reconsider my stance on that. If we can be sure that this script has basically no real use case apart from storing data, perhaps you're right and it would at least not be blocking any interesting contracts.

I wonder what the current standardness rules for Taproot scripts are in Bitcoin Core (apart from consensus rules specified in BIP-342). For P2SH there were (almost) no rules for some time, but that has changed with time. For Taproot all I can find is this handful of rules in the code (policy.cpp), related mostly to MAX_STANDARD_TAPSCRIPT_STACK_ITEM_SIZE, the control block and annexes. So the above proposed rule would be far more "detailed" and could be interpreted as "arbitrary heuristics".

There was also a proposal in the Ordinals community to store the inscriptions in the "signature annex" which was still open in February 2024. Would that also be prevented or would this be one of the methods which would lead to a bigger UTXO set? Still a bit skeptic, because if this is implemented the nonstandard rule would not bring any benefit.

Meanwhile, some Runes seems to have recovered from the recent crash and got double digit increases in the last 7 days. So I don't discard a second wave incoming. I believe it will be much "lighter" than the first one though.

Where Can I find the order book?

Here, for example. For some reason I'm not able to see buy orders for the most popular one "Dog go to the Moon" or this one starting with "Z", only sell orders. That would confirm my prediction but it's of course also possible that the website or my browser doesn't work correctly.

[NotATether]

Here, for example. For some reason I'm not able to see buy orders for the most popular one "Dog go to the Moon" or this one starting with "Z", only sell orders. That would confirm my prediction but it's of course also possible that the website or my browser doesn't work correctly.

There are no sell orders appearing at all on the latest Google Chrome. What the heck is going on?

I am apparently experiencing the opposite scenario as you. There are so many buy orders available but no sell orders.

So I'm guessing that either means that someone is busy pumping and dumping most of the Runes (I mean why wouldn't that happen, since only a few crypto bros use it anyway) or else there really is a dysfunctional market for these things.

[d5000]

I am apparently experiencing the opposite scenario as you. There are so many buy orders available but no sell orders.

Just checked again, and got the same result as yesterday night.

I'm seeing several orders under the "Buy" tab. I interpret that the "Buy" tab does not show the buy orders, but instead sell orders for Runes you can buy. You can see at the right side that when you click on an order, you see a button which enables you to buy these Runes when you connect a wallet to this marketplace. So I'm sure these are sell orders.

While when I go to the "Sell" tab, then I only see the "waiting" animation and no orders appear. I'm interpreting thus that nobody placed a buy order, or publicly declared interest to buy.

Do you see the same thing or do you see lots of orders under "Sell" (which should be buy orders)?

[Wind_FURY]

Now try to sell them all. Order books will be thick, but only on the ask side

Where Can I find the order book? Couldn't find anywhere 

I saw só many people saying that bitcoin feels would be forever high, and nft were going to dominate bitcoin blocks... it died so fast lol

In Brazil we call this "chicken fight". Ever saw a chicken flying? Lol

I will admit that I thought that the fees would stay higher for longer, and perhaps with a bit of uncertainty for several months.. .but, yeah we are ONLY about a month out and fees have been pretty damned reasonable for about the last week or so..

It's not only reasonable. It's at its lowest after Ordinals' release and its popularity among shitcoining circles. That was a very quick cycle of money coming from the "prey" to the "predators" with nothing technically new to show for. Plus the fees, the miners' cut, which speeds up the plebs' losses to the Shitcoinery Casino.

But to be frank, I'm tempted. It might be a golden opportunity for "traders" because there might be a narrative for "Bitcoin DeFi"  this cycle. I'm not good in trading though.

[JayJuanGee]

Now try to sell them all. Order books will be thick, but only on the ask side

Where Can I find the order book? Couldn't find anywhere 

I saw só many people saying that bitcoin feels would be forever high, and nft were going to dominate bitcoin blocks... it died so fast lol

In Brazil we call this "chicken fight". Ever saw a chicken flying? Lol

I will admit that I thought that the fees would stay higher for longer, and perhaps with a bit of uncertainty for several months.. .but, yeah we are ONLY about a month out and fees have been pretty damned reasonable for about the last week or so..

It's not only reasonable. It's at its lowest after Ordinals' release and its popularity among shitcoining circles. That was a very quick cycle of money coming from the "prey" to the "predators" with nothing technically new to show for. Plus the fees, the miners' cut, which speeds up the plebs' losses to the Shitcoinery Casino.

But to be frank, I'm tempted. It might be a golden opportunity for "traders" because there might be a narrative for "Bitcoin DeFi"  this cycle. I'm not good in trading though.

I cannot really be sure regarding how the topics could overlap in terms of how we might talk about the effects of runes and ordinals (inscriptions too) on bitcoin, and including potentially our own personal financial considerations that might involve how much that we might want to get involved or financially dabble in pump and dump baloney as compared with just building our BTC holdings and/or engaging in other practices to try to protect our BTC holdings during many times that there might be both ambiguities in the market but also congestion on the blockchain that might cause some of our UTXOs to either unspendable or uneconomical to spend.

On a personal level, I don't really have any problem with guys who are tempted to gamble in various ways, including if they might see some potential areas in which they might earn more money - yet we know with bitcoin people might end up getting deceived and distracted away from bitcoin, as the prize possession... so if there is such a great asset such as bitcoin itself, why add additional risks when you have nearly a sure bet (yeah, I know nothing is guaranteed, so we have to account for even bitcoin not being guaranteed either)...

I know for you personally (Wind_FURY), many times you have claimed to come from a kind of impoverished starting point, so then there is a bit of an implication that you are having to struggle to build the size of your BTC holdings, so perhaps you are not even close to being in a position to having enough (or more than enough) BTC, so your distraction into other ways to increase your BTC stash seem to be greedy rather than practical, so maybe my own punchline consideration would be regarding how much of your BTC are you willing to put at risk in either your diversion of BTC into gambling on runes, decentralized finances, ordinals/inscriptions or whatever other bullshit pump and dump nonsense that you are identifying to potentially be profitable?  If we are talking less than 10% of your BTC holdings (without cheating about it), then sure, that might be within the realm of reasonable in order to satisfy your urges to gamble and to try to get rich quicker than you otherwise would be able to with a more pure bitcoin approach.

Also, I am not really opposed to the idea of learning about something through putting some money into it, even if there might be a bit of a waste of time element to the whole matter, yet we still come down to putting limits on ourselves so that we do not get too diverted from actual wealth building and if you are claiming to having poverty-stricken circumstances, then you likely already realize that it can take 30-40 years in traditional investment scenarios to build wealth and potentially get to fuck you status (and many folks do not even get there after more than 40 years investing and doing all the right things in traditional investments). 

So, bitcoin potentially gives you a chance to actually get to meaningful and significant wealth building in perhaps less than half of the time as traditional investing 15-20 years and maybe even higher chances of actually getting to such a wealth-built status, so why fuck it up by potentially getting greedy and/or overly dabbling in shitcoins (runes etc) merely based on the fact that you might be feeling somewhat wealthy based on your already 8-ish years in bitcoin (congrats, I see that you just passed your 8 year anniversary on the forum - can't be claiming newbie status anymore.. hahahahahaha).

So.. yeah, even folks who had been modestly investing in bitcoin over the last 8-ish years might have made a lot of mistakes and still be feeling that they are doing somewhat well in terms of their own bitcoin investment performance levels.  This can happen with any investment in terms of the psychological components of a wealth effect that might contribute towards more spending, risk taking, withdrawal of capital and/or even temptations to diversify that might not be reasonable/necessary - while at the same time, it might be difficult to recognize and/or appreciate the value of sticking to the earlier course of action that would be to be continuing to stay focused on the prize (bitcoin in this case) and not getting lured into shiny objects that may well merely be serving as ways to separate you from the bitcoin you have so far built to date and also the bitcoin that you would continue to be able to build by remaining focused on ongoing accumulation of bitcoin rather than other "possible things that might (or might not) return more."

[pawanjain]

Runes are one of the most hilarious* economic systems ever created, after perhaps BRC-20.

1. Someone creates a token with a specific name.
2. Other people can create their own units of these tokens. There is a limit, but usually it's not very low.
3. Then all try to sell their tokens, thinking there will be someone collecting them, either because of the "creative" name, or because it was created on a specific date (e.g. Halving Day).
4. Rinse and repeat (protocol is open, everybody can participate in each step).

Basically it's like "you can create your own money! and you will be rich if you do that!" Are you really willing to waste thousands of dollars of transaction fees for that?

Technically Runes is not much more advanced than Omni/Mastercoin which was created in 2013. More than ten years ago!


If you think Halving Day is special to create your own Rune, think again:

During the halving day, 144 blocks approximately will be created. Each block normally has 1000-3000 transactions. 74% of them currenty are Runes according to this dashboard.
This means probably more than 200.000 Runes will be created today.
Now try to sell them all. Order books will be thick, but only on the ask side


*not in a positive way

What would you say about NFTs from that perspective? It's almost the same thing right.
Yet there are so many people buying and selling it everyday.
People have literally paid millions to buy some random creepy image.
I was really shocked to see such dumb people paying such high amount of money for such shit images.

[d5000]

What would you say about NFTs from that perspective? It's almost the same thing right.

You're correct, in most cases I think NFTs have a similar bleak "value proposition". This applies mostly to "collections" of small images with no artistic value. But at least they're unique. And that makes me understand the NFT frenzy a little bit more than the BRC-20 and Runes frenzy. There are also NFTs I could consider "art". And there are other non-artistic NFTs which can accrue value in some cases when people charge these images with symbolism. I guess that's what explains the whole Pepe frenzy or perhaps also the "Bored Apes". Basically they are a bit like collectibles.

In the case of the BRC-20/Runes tokens, however, the only thing they have as an USP is the name. And there are potentially thousands or even millions of token units ("token satoshis"). In theory, if you own one unit of a token you already get the benefit of the USP. Basically owning many of these tokens is like "Yeah, I'm rich because I'm owning 5% of the name (of a particular protocol, on a particular chain)". Of course there is also some symbolism involved like in the case of memecoins, but the analogy with "real" collectibles becomes much harder to understand.

Of course this doesn't apply to Runes/Ordinals which do have some specific purpose, like an in-game currency, or a crowdfunding mechanism.

[franky1]

the ordinals and runes are not NFT. nor bitcoin standard. they just want to abuse branding to get instant fame from other projects, whilst all these runes and ordinals offer is scammery

true NFT are like unique serial numbers/hashes per unit whereby they are not mass produced such as hundreds of units per utxo
true NFT have unique features that offer the recipient unique things

the runes and ordinals are more like ICO scams.. not NFT

as for true NFT we have yet to see the real best case utility/possibility of them, but these scams of runes and ordinals are not even in the same league/sector/category of NFT potential

[Wind_FURY]

Now try to sell them all. Order books will be thick, but only on the ask side

Where Can I find the order book? Couldn't find anywhere 

I saw só many people saying that bitcoin feels would be forever high, and nft were going to dominate bitcoin blocks... it died so fast lol

In Brazil we call this "chicken fight". Ever saw a chicken flying? Lol

I will admit that I thought that the fees would stay higher for longer, and perhaps with a bit of uncertainty for several months.. .but, yeah we are ONLY about a month out and fees have been pretty damned reasonable for about the last week or so..

It's not only reasonable. It's at its lowest after Ordinals' release and its popularity among shitcoining circles. That was a very quick cycle of money coming from the "prey" to the "predators" with nothing technically new to show for. Plus the fees, the miners' cut, which speeds up the plebs' losses to the Shitcoinery Casino.

But to be frank, I'm tempted. It might be a golden opportunity for "traders" because there might be a narrative for "Bitcoin DeFi"  this cycle. I'm not good in trading though.

I cannot really be sure regarding how the topics could overlap in terms of how we might talk about the effects of runes and ordinals (inscriptions too) on bitcoin, and including potentially our own personal financial considerations that might involve how much that we might want to get involved or financially dabble in pump and dump baloney as compared with just building our BTC holdings and/or engaging in other practices to try to protect our BTC holdings during many times that there might be both ambiguities in the market but also congestion on the blockchain that might cause some of our UTXOs to either unspendable or uneconomical to spend.

On a personal level, I don't really have any problem with guys who are tempted to gamble in various ways, including if they might see some potential areas in which they might earn more money - yet we know with bitcoin people might end up getting deceived and distracted away from bitcoin, as the prize possession... so if there is such a great asset such as bitcoin itself, why add additional risks when you have nearly a sure bet (yeah, I know nothing is guaranteed, so we have to account for even bitcoin not being guaranteed either)...

I'm the same as you, I'm agnostic because technically they're not breaking the consensus rules and they're paying the miners the fees required to have their transactions in the blockchain. Who am I to tell them to leave?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I know for you personally (Wind_FURY), many times you have claimed to come from a kind of impoverished starting point, so then there is a bit of an implication that you are having to struggle to build the size of your BTC holdings, so perhaps you are not even close to being in a position to having enough (or more than enough) BTC, so your distraction into other ways to increase your BTC stash seem to be greedy rather than practical, so maybe my own punchline consideration would be regarding how much of your BTC are you willing to put at risk in either your diversion of BTC into gambling on runes, decentralized finances, ordinals/inscriptions or whatever other bullshit pump and dump nonsense that you are identifying to potentially be profitable?  If we are talking less than 10% of your BTC holdings (without cheating about it), then sure, that might be within the realm of reasonable in order to satisfy your urges to gamble and to try to get rich quicker than you otherwise would be able to with a more pure bitcoin approach.

Also, I am not really opposed to the idea of learning about something through putting some money into it, even if there might be a bit of a waste of time element to the whole matter, yet we still come down to putting limits on ourselves so that we do not get too diverted from actual wealth building and if you are claiming to having poverty-stricken circumstances, then you likely already realize that it can take 30-40 years in traditional investment scenarios to build wealth and potentially get to fuck you status (and many folks do not even get there after more than 40 years investing and doing all the right things in traditional investments). 

So, bitcoin potentially gives you a chance to actually get to meaningful and significant wealth building in perhaps less than half of the time as traditional investing 15-20 years and maybe even higher chances of actually getting to such a wealth-built status, so why fuck it up by potentially getting greedy and/or overly dabbling in shitcoins (runes etc) merely based on the fact that you might be feeling somewhat wealthy based on your already 8-ish years in bitcoin (congrats, I see that you just passed your 8 year anniversary on the forum - can't be claiming newbie status anymore.. hahahahahaha).

So.. yeah, even folks who had been modestly investing in bitcoin over the last 8-ish years might have made a lot of mistakes and still be feeling that they are doing somewhat well in terms of their own bitcoin investment performance levels.  This can happen with any investment in terms of the psychological components of a wealth effect that might contribute towards more spending, risk taking, withdrawal of capital and/or even temptations to diversify that might not be reasonable/necessary - while at the same time, it might be difficult to recognize and/or appreciate the value of sticking to the earlier course of action that would be to be continuing to stay focused on the prize (bitcoin in this case) and not getting lured into shiny objects that may well merely be serving as ways to separate you from the bitcoin you have so far built to date and also the bitcoin that you would continue to be able to build by remaining focused on ongoing accumulation of bitcoin rather than other "possible things that might (or might not) return more."

Although I'm just a mere pleb, I'm very happy with my Bitcoin savings. The amount of shitcoinery I'm willing to do will be mere $100.00 bets for fun, not something to lose my sanity over. I'm having enough of that in Bitcoin.