Why is Bitcoin the Dumbest Thing Ever Invented

[JamesNZ]

You can repeat the nonsense that money is representation of work done, but reality won't change. In reality, neither work is required to create Bitcoin, nor money is representation of work done.

Is it perhaps the conditioning children receive to believe that being wrong is a bad thing which is responsible for your inabilty to consider that your understanding of the topic is erroneous?

Let me break it down into the simplest terms I can:

The 'token' we use to represent money is currency. But we absolutely do not need to have a 'thing' at all. We could simply keep a record of debits and credits in a central database, agreed?

Money evolved out of the very first debit and credit ledgers we created and it was simply recorded as a number in a ledger. So if you as the farmer dropped off your grain at the local temple you would be assigned a certain number of credits for it and some of those credits would then be deducted against the debits you had previously run up earlier in the year when needing to buy your farming supplies etc. So you, like every other farmer and producer of goods for the community's economy would all have your debits and credits recorded in thie ledger.

If you were to look at a page of that ledger you would only see numbers being assigned to names as a result of whatever basis they had warranted a credit for. So you'd have no idea whether one unit was for grain, or grapes, or timber, as this wasn't necessary to know.

Do you know why it wasn't necessary to know? Because each unit recorded represented only one thing. The value introduced into the economic system as a result of time and energy expended creating it. Work.


That we then decided to create a token system which would then allow people to hold their own representation of that monetary unit, and then buy goods and services from other people who would accept it in exchange, is what saw the creation of a currency unit representing that monetary unit previously recorded in the ledger.

That is the difference between money and currency. Currency is just the token 'thing' we created to be able to move those written monetary unit records from the central ledger into the hands of the people so they could trade freely without it having to go through the central record for every transaction.

Stop making your own definitions of words because you look funny. First you defined money as work. Now you define it as a number. Money is not a number. A number is mathematical object used to count, measure, and label things - 10 cows, 5 ounces of gold, 100 units of debt(dollars). Cows, gold or debt are the things you're counting or measuring. Just puting numbers on a paper or electronic medium doesn't mean creating money.

Further, a currency is not "token we use to represent money"(whatever that nonsense means) but simply ... "money that is used in a particular country at a particular time". And again, money is a concrete thing (cow, gold, debt). That brings us to the fact that there's no concrete thing in the Bitcoin system. There's nothing to be counted or debited/credited. People simply spend electricity on random trial and error of finding a number. When they find it the protocol attributes a predefined number (units of nothing) to their addresses and shows them that on the screen.

Besides making your own, funny definitions, your main problem is that you don't understand Bitcoin. You've heard about Bitcoin from stories, such as the one called "The Bitcoin white paper". You've heard about some coins that exists in the system, about e-money. But you didn't actually check whether these stories are true. You just blindly believe them. I am here to educate you about what Bitcoin actually is. I am here to help you understand Bitcoin in all of its stupidity.

[cryptodevil]

Ok I give up. You're not here to learn anything, you're here to parade your Dunning-Kruger level of ignorance for us all to gawp at.
Congrats, it is impressively confident.

HFSP

[JamesNZ]

Ok I give up. You're not here to learn anything, you're here to parade your Dunning-Kruger level of ignorance for us all to gawp at.
Congrats, it is impressively confident.

HFSP

I am not here to learn but to educate. Because it seems none of you actually understand Bitcoin. You just repeat narratives about Bitcoin and at the same time ignore what Bitcoin actually is - a database with data on nothing. A database that simulates real databases. Real databases contain data on some aspect of reality - for example on the number of actual things or about events that occurred. On the other hand, what is put into the Bitcoin database are units of the number 21 million that an anonymous guy created in their imagination. And then people create narratives trying to come up with a thing held by these units. A thing that doesn't exist in reality. It is both comical and tragic to listen to those narratives.

[larry_vw_1955]

Because it seems none of you actually understand Bitcoin. You just repeat narratives about Bitcoin and at the same time ignore what Bitcoin actually is - a database with data on nothing. A database that stimulates real databases. Real databases contain data on some aspect of reality - for example on the number of actual things or about events that occurred. On the other hand, what is put into the Bitcoin database are units of the number 21 million that an anonymous guy created in their imagination. And then people create narratives trying to come up with a thing held by these units. A thing that doesn't exist in reality. It is both comical and tragic to listen to those narratives.

to an extent what you say is true. bitcoin only has value because everyone agrees it has value. or enough people agree. unlike something like gold that has intrinsic value because it has physical uses.

[cryptodevil]

to an extent what you say is true. bitcoin only has value because everyone agrees it has value. or enough people agree. unlike something like gold that has intrinsic value because it has physical uses.

I'll roll the dice on you perhaps having the mental capacity to understand what is being said to you:

Bitcoin has value because it requires time and energy to produce. Work. Back when it cost a miner $50 to create 1 Bitcoin then Bitcoin would generally be sold by miners for more than $50 to ensure they covered their costs. Now it costs tens of thousands to produce 1 Bitcoin so miners won't sell for less than tens of thousands.

You're mistaken in thinking that gold is any different. Just because there are areas of production that can utilise the properties of gold that is not the basis for it's initial market price. Gold has a cost of production, too. Gold miners won't sell for less than it costs them to mine it out of the ground and as those costs increase so does the price of gold. Its use in industry is just an upwards pull factor on the price against the availability of the metal for purchase, the scarecity factor is related to this pricing. The push price, that which is the fundamental basis for it's introduction onto the market in the first place is the cost borne by the miner to produce it out of the ground.

[larry_vw_1955]

Bitcoin has value because it requires time and energy to produce.

the only reason why bitcoin has any value at all is because enough people believe or agree to it having that value. everything else is a consequence of that, including the fact that it requires energy to mine bitcoin.

someone would have to have a serious misunderstanding to think that just because something uses lots of energy to create means it is automatically valuable.

You're mistaken in thinking that gold is any different. Just because there are areas of production that can utilise the properties of gold that is not the basis for it's initial market price. Gold has a cost of production, too. Gold miners won't sell for less than it costs them to mine it out of the ground and as those costs increase so does the price of gold. Its use in industry is just an upwards pull factor on the price against the availability of the metal for purchase, the scarecity factor is related to this pricing. The push price, that which is the fundamental basis for it's introduction onto the market in the first place is the cost borne by the miner to produce it out of the ground.

i suspect it costs some gold miners way less than market price to mine gold. so i don't necessarily think that mining price is what determines the market price of gold. it's other things.

[JamesNZ]

Because it seems none of you actually understand Bitcoin. You just repeat narratives about Bitcoin and at the same time ignore what Bitcoin actually is - a database with data on nothing. A database that stimulates real databases. Real databases contain data on some aspect of reality - for example on the number of actual things or about events that occurred. On the other hand, what is put into the Bitcoin database are units of the number 21 million that an anonymous guy created in their imagination. And then people create narratives trying to come up with a thing held by these units. A thing that doesn't exist in reality. It is both comical and tragic to listen to those narratives.

to an extent what you say is true. bitcoin only has value because everyone agrees it has value. or enough people agree. unlike something like gold that has intrinsic value because it has physical uses.

Bitcoin units are abstractions, representation of the number 21 million created in Satoshi's imagination. Meaning, they don't have value by definition. They have a price. If I create shares of a non-existent company that I named XYZ and then someone "buys XYZ" what is created is price, also referred to as 'market value'. However value or 'real value' is what actual companies, with assets and liabilities, have. And what actual money such as cow, gold or debt have. In the Bitcoin system nothing actual exists. Only an abstraction - that number created in Satoshi's imagination. So there's nothing to assign value to. People just transfer units of that number, pay ask prices in the process and that's it.

By the way, I see that you compare costs of 'mining gold' to costs of 'mining Bitcoin'. Bitcoin has no costs. There's no such thing as Bitcoin mining. That's just stupid narrative repeated by people. Costs in the bitcoin system refer to a random trial and error of finding a solution to a hash combination. Creating new Bitcoin units has zero cost. It's just a simple function of a code.

[larry_vw_1955]

By the way, I see that you compare costs of 'mining gold' to costs of 'mining Bitcoin'. Bitcoin has no costs. There's no such thing as Bitcoin mining. That's just stupid narrative repeated by people. Costs in the bitcoin system refer to a random trial and error of finding a solution to a hash combination. Creating new Bitcoin units has zero cost. It's just a simple function of a code.

yes i do tend to agree that the term "mining" is a bit misleading to what people are actually doing. they're not really doing anything except wasting electricity so they can get more bitcoin. they're not really miners in a traditional sense like a gold miner. gold miners actually find something in the ground. bitcoin "miners" aren't finding bitcoin.

[JamesNZ]

By the way, I see that you compare costs of 'mining gold' to costs of 'mining Bitcoin'. Bitcoin has no costs. There's no such thing as Bitcoin mining. That's just stupid narrative repeated by people. Costs in the bitcoin system refer to a random trial and error of finding a solution to a hash combination. Creating new Bitcoin units has zero cost. It's just a simple function of a code.

yes i do tend to agree that the term "mining" is a bit misleading to what people are actually doing. they're not really doing anything except wasting electricity so they can get more bitcoin. they're not really miners in a traditional sense like a gold miner. gold miners actually find something in the ground. bitcoin "miners" aren't finding bitcoin.

The thing is that in order to justify their huge investments in nothing, people will say anything, no matter how stupid it is.

[larry_vw_1955]

The thing is that in order to justify their huge investments in nothing, people will say anything, no matter how stupid it is.

maybe they should have called it something else other than "mining". because i agree that is a stupid name for doing a bunch of mathematical computations faster than anyone else. maybe they should have just called it "hashing" because when they say "mining" it makes it sound like they are doing something really important. when in reality, they are just trying to pad their own wallet. and run up a big electric bill that raises other peoples' rates. unless they are using solar or something but from what i have seen, many cryptocurrency "miners" don't seem to give a rats ass if their electricity consumption raises normal peoples' rates. and yes in case people wondered why electric utilities keep raising everyone's rates, its because of them.

[amihada]

the world's population admits that digital currency is bitcoin, I say bitcoin is the king of coins, then why is there a statement that creating bitcoin is the stupidest thing? I doubt those who express opinions like that, what do you think, do you agree with me?

[JamesNZ]

The thing is that in order to justify their huge investments in nothing, people will say anything, no matter how stupid it is.

maybe they should have called it something else other than "mining". because i agree that is a stupid name for doing a bunch of mathematical computations faster than anyone else. maybe they should have just called it "hashing" because when they say "mining" it makes it sound like they are doing something really important. when in reality, they are just trying to pad their own wallet. and run up a big electric bill that raises other peoples' rates. unless they are using solar or something but from what i have seen, many cryptocurrency "miners" don't seem to give a rats ass if their electricity consumption raises normal peoples' rates. and yes in case people wondered why electric utilities keep raising everyone's rates, its because of them.

The whole Bitcoin thing thrives on language manipulations, misconceptions, disinformation and get-rich-quick ideas. No one cares about truth, facts or reality.

[larry_vw_1955]

The whole Bitcoin thing thrives on language manipulations, misconceptions, disinformation and get-rich-quick ideas. No one cares about truth, facts or reality.

because they are all too busy trying to make money off of bitcoin.   That's literally what some people think bitcoin is for so they can make money. they understand that there's really nothing backing up bitcoin, no physical asset. just a group faith that they keep "believing"...

[JamesNZ]

The whole Bitcoin thing thrives on language manipulations, misconceptions, disinformation and get-rich-quick ideas. No one cares about truth, facts or reality.

because they are all too busy trying to make money off of bitcoin.   That's literally what some people think bitcoin is for so they can make money. they understand that there's really nothing backing up bitcoin, no physical asset. just a group faith that they keep "believing"...

Having faith that you'll get rich quick in a scheme is not a problem. But constantly misrepresenting the scheme is. If you bought numbers on the screen and then believe you'll be able sell them for a better price that's fine. But if you try to attract buyers by spreading lies that your numbers count a valuable digital asset, money, coins, tokens, energy, work, whatever ... that's a problem. And someone must react to expose those lies.

[larry_vw_1955]

Having faith that you'll get rich quick in a scheme is not a problem. But constantly misrepresenting the scheme is. If you bought numbers on the screen and then believe you'll be able sell them for a better price that's fine. But if you try to attract buyers by spreading lies that your numbers count a valuable digital asset, money, coins, tokens, energy, work, whatever ... that's a problem. And someone must react to expose those lies.

yes I believe a little honesty is called for on behalf of people "evangelizing" bitcoin. one argument that I hate hearing is "bitcoin is valuable because it cost $XXXX to mine".

[Iranus]

Because it seems none of you actually understand Bitcoin. You just repeat narratives about Bitcoin and at the same time ignore what Bitcoin actually is - a database with data on nothing. A database that stimulates real databases. Real databases contain data on some aspect of reality - for example on the number of actual things or about events that occurred. On the other hand, what is put into the Bitcoin database are units of the number 21 million that an anonymous guy created in their imagination. And then people create narratives trying to come up with a thing held by these units. A thing that doesn't exist in reality. It is both comical and tragic to listen to those narratives.

to an extent what you say is true. bitcoin only has value because everyone agrees it has value. or enough people agree. unlike something like gold that has intrinsic value because it has physical uses.

The value of any asset is determined by supply and demand. If one day the demand for gold no longer exists, do you think it will still be valuable? Also, you're claiming gold has uses because it's made into jewelry and used in certain industries...and bitcoin isn't? So the fact that we use bitcoin as a payment method, a store of value...that's not a use case or uses, what do you call that? Because bitcoin cannot be touched with hands nor can it be used for jewelry like gold, it is considered useless and has no use case. Is that true in a world gradually digitizing everything we live in?

[larry_vw_1955]

If one day the demand for gold no longer exists, do you think it will still be valuable?

the chances of that happening are far closer to zero than the demand for bitcoin no longer existing. so why don't we just agree that your question is based on a faulty premise that the demand for gold could ever "no longer exist". As long as people exist, the demand for gold will exist. That's not the case with bitcoin. Read that sentence again!

Also, you're claiming gold has uses because it's made into jewelry and used in certain industries...and bitcoin isn't?

gold is a byproduct of the universe. bitcoin is just a figment of our imagination. if all the computers went away, so would bitcoin. why do i even need to explain something like that though?  

So the fact that we use bitcoin as a payment method, a store of value...that's not a use case or uses, what do you call that?

i call that something that can be replaced with something else. what can you replace gold with?

Because bitcoin cannot be touched with hands nor can it be used for jewelry like gold, it is considered useless and has no use case. Is that true in a world gradually digitizing everything we live in?

the chances of bitcoin ending up worthless are far greater than gold ever not having strong demand. make of that what you will.

now with all that said, i think bitcoin is an amazing invention but it could always be replaced by something else and probably will someday by something better. what are you going to replace gold with? silver?

[JamesNZ]

Having faith that you'll get rich quick in a scheme is not a problem. But constantly misrepresenting the scheme is. If you bought numbers on the screen and then believe you'll be able sell them for a better price that's fine. But if you try to attract buyers by spreading lies that your numbers count a valuable digital asset, money, coins, tokens, energy, work, whatever ... that's a problem. And someone must react to expose those lies.

yes I believe a little honesty is called for on behalf of people "evangelizing" bitcoin. one argument that I hate hearing is "bitcoin is valuable because it cost $XXXX to mine".

The core problem is that there's that name "Bit-coin", suggesting that people have some kind of coins in the amount of numbers they see on the screen. But no such coins exist. Coins are tangible discs. The evangelists would then say: "But bit-coins are electronic or digital coins." Besides that being an oxymoron, like wooden iron, if you have an electronic item you have to be able to show or describe what you have. There are for example electronic tokens like electronic poker chips or gift cards but they represent the liability of their issuers to redeem them for something. Satoshi Nakamoto has no liability to redeem that what he issues via his protocol. So, no electronic tokens exist in the system. And that's why no one can show or describe a resource in the amount of numbers they see on the screen. When people say that they "mine Bitcoin" what this actually means is that the protocol will show them a number on the screen once they solve a hash combination. Literally, they spend energy to get just numbers on the screen. Number that count nothing. It's crazy how dumb this is.

[larry_vw_1955]

When people say that they "mine Bitcoin" what this actually means is that the protocol will show them a number on the screen once they solve a hash combination. Literally, they spend energy to get just numbers on the screen. Number that count nothing. It's crazy how dumb this is.

there's even more madness to the story if one is willing to hear it all. once they get the numbers on their screen, they sell those numbers to someone else. so they can get real money... so as soon as they get it they want to get rid of it, many of them do. how does that make any sense?

[JamesNZ]

When people say that they "mine Bitcoin" what this actually means is that the protocol will show them a number on the screen once they solve a hash combination. Literally, they spend energy to get just numbers on the screen. Number that count nothing. It's crazy how dumb this is.

there's even more madness to the story if one is willing to hear it all. once they get the numbers on their screen, they sell those numbers to someone else. so they can get real money... so as soon as they get it they want to get rid of it, many of them do. how does that make any sense?

It makes sense because they know very well that numbers on the screen is all they have. But as long as there are enough suckers that want to buy them because they believe that numbers count some magic coins, they'll keep spending energy to get them. It all boils down to ignorance and greed. People are generally ignorant of what money is. And they saw others "profiting off of Bitcoin" so they just want to get in, no matter what. That's why you can sell the digit "1" for $70K or two digits for $1M. It's literal madness.