I'm surprised this hobby and genre of crypto collectibles isn't more popular

[rsincognito]

Good thread tread! lots of good discussion

Thanks m8!

Yes - security would be a definite need.


what I would love to have is a space where I can have my 3d printers, my lasers - basically my shop - set up, but then also have display areas for all of my collectibles and any that anyone else would want displayed, have areas where people can display pieces for sale (like consignment) they could also then list them on sale on various sites and if they sold, I would simply package/ship them out, a space for VR - where people could enter Bitcoin/crypto VR spaces - I know of at least 3 that exist now and I am sure there are others. A gallery for art etc

Before COVID I was looking at a building that could have done this but they put the sale on hold (due to covid - I think the seller got sick) and then I spent a lot of Bitcoin helping family - most who lost jobs due to covid - for example several of my daughters were servers so the restaurants laid them off.  Not to mention our unemployment system was broken, would crash repeatedly so it was hard for them to even file their weekly claims. I also used 2 Bitcoin to pay off my mom's house.

Needless to say, when it calmed down and the kids were going back to work, I was down about 5 btc and could no longer entertain getting the building - which had also nearly doubled in price.

I still hope to do this one day though

I’m probably not the first one to propose this idea, but what if we got a Headstart for next years 2025 bitcoin conference and we all chipped in to have a booth that’s strictly for the bitcoin talk collectible section? it would give us enough time to raise funds for a couple security guards and We’re logistical planning and tables and banners. I would be willing to donate the first $500 in Btc, we could have MJ Escrow the fund.

Would love to know everyone thoughts 🤠

Booths aint cheap... pretty sure Mopar told me normal cost was around $25k ?? not 100% sure though.....
Maybe something partnering with James at Stacks and Bowers would be pretty cool.

I feel like James and the team would definitely welcome the idea! I am curious if they will keep the conference in Tennessee next year as well? Man I hope they bring it back to Miami! I am pretty sure they will after they hear all the folks flying internationally & hear of all the hassle they had to go through just to make it this year they might consider it. But who knows. I am so down to either try and partner up for something like that. I know one thing is for sure that if i'm going next year I sure won't miss the Btalk physical crypto collectors meet up  Last years was so dope, although it was a little crammed and didn't really ideally get to meet every single person there and get to figure out exactly who they were on here but hey we will all eventually meet each other as long as we keep up over the years

BTC  Media the host of the conference is based in Nashville, so I am guessing the conference will be in Nashville for coming years...   just a guess
[/quote]


I feel like for the bitcoin talk meet up group We should have those name tag stickers that says “hi my name is,” and let people write in their forum screen names. 1: it’ll help us identify people, and 2:  if people want to remain anonymous with their real name it gives them an option too.  (Just a thought)

[DaveF]

I was told the booths ranged from 15k to 25k - mad crazy expensive.

And that's just the space. You need to bring everything else. Tables, chairs, banners, etc.
On top of that you have insurance and labor costs and......

Booths at shows are not cheap.

-Dave

[ChiBitCTy]

I was at a bar in Brooklyn, NY last summer and was doing a public poll for my own entertainment to gauge sentiment.

I shit you not I asked about 300 people in the span of the day about Bitcoin. People from age 21-35 and only 3 people owned Bitcoin, and of those 3 only one had it in cold storage.

We are so early with Bitcoin itself it is no wonder why the Bitcoin collectibles space hasn't taken off yet.

I suspect it might be another 10 years before Casascius coins get any real traction.

I’m quite shocked that only 3 people owned any. Very surprising. Hopefully a few were lying to you, as Andreas says it best “never talk about your bitcoin” or something like “no need to discuss bitcoin amongst, that what I’m here for”. Essentially just speaking the importance of keeping your finances private, as well as helping keep your bitcoin potentially pseudonymous.

I’ve done a little “study” of my own. I’m an FA by trade so I’m speaking with people about their finances all day long, and of all the people who’ve told me they own bitcoin, NOT ONE had theirs in cold storage or even knew what a hot wallet was/is. More of a lack of investor intelligence and laziness than necessarily being early IMHO. However no doubt that plays a sizable role.

I am a newbie here . I definitely joined because of physical bitcoin. I am actually working on my own crypto coin (like everyone else). It will be some time before I am there. I am going to produce doge and shib coins , if I make it. I have metals and am starting with sand casting, but will probably move up to a coin press before I make the leap. Any recommendations/advise would be welcome. Actually, any advice is welcome. I actually anticipate this market growing considerably. As crypto sees wider adoption, I am betting on these increasing in value, just because the crypto will increase in value .
I note that large coins sell for a lower premium. Not a lot of people with $7m on hand. Asking $14m for a 10 bitcoin token seems steep.

Speculation on speculative currency is risk on top of risk. I’m in. This is the future!

Always good to see new faces on the forum, especially when it has to do with collectibles (same reason I signed up 8 some years ago). As glad to see you’re planning to make one yourself. I would be happy to help guide you down the “right path”. At least my version of it.  Please feel free to DM me.

[tread93]

Good thread tread! lots of good discussion

Thanks m8!

Yes - security would be a definite need.


what I would love to have is a space where I can have my 3d printers, my lasers - basically my shop - set up, but then also have display areas for all of my collectibles and any that anyone else would want displayed, have areas where people can display pieces for sale (like consignment) they could also then list them on sale on various sites and if they sold, I would simply package/ship them out, a space for VR - where people could enter Bitcoin/crypto VR spaces - I know of at least 3 that exist now and I am sure there are others. A gallery for art etc

Before COVID I was looking at a building that could have done this but they put the sale on hold (due to covid - I think the seller got sick) and then I spent a lot of Bitcoin helping family - most who lost jobs due to covid - for example several of my daughters were servers so the restaurants laid them off.  Not to mention our unemployment system was broken, would crash repeatedly so it was hard for them to even file their weekly claims. I also used 2 Bitcoin to pay off my mom's house.

Needless to say, when it calmed down and the kids were going back to work, I was down about 5 btc and could no longer entertain getting the building - which had also nearly doubled in price.

I still hope to do this one day though

I’m probably not the first one to propose this idea, but what if we got a Headstart for next years 2025 bitcoin conference and we all chipped in to have a booth that’s strictly for the bitcoin talk collectible section? it would give us enough time to raise funds for a couple security guards and We’re logistical planning and tables and banners. I would be willing to donate the first $500 in Btc, we could have MJ Escrow the fund.

Would love to know everyone thoughts 🤠

Booths aint cheap... pretty sure Mopar told me normal cost was around $25k ?? not 100% sure though.....
Maybe something partnering with James at Stacks and Bowers would be pretty cool.

I feel like James and the team would definitely welcome the idea! I am curious if they will keep the conference in Tennessee next year as well? Man I hope they bring it back to Miami! I am pretty sure they will after they hear all the folks flying internationally & hear of all the hassle they had to go through just to make it this year they might consider it. But who knows. I am so down to either try and partner up for something like that. I know one thing is for sure that if i'm going next year I sure won't miss the Btalk physical crypto collectors meet up   Last years was so dope, although it was a little crammed and didn't really ideally get to meet every single person there and get to figure out exactly who they were on here but hey we will all eventually meet each other as long as we keep up over the years

BTC  Media the host of the conference is based in Nashville, so I am guessing the conference will be in Nashville for coming years...   just a guess

I feel like for the bitcoin talk meet up group We should have those name tag stickers that says “hi my name is,” and let people write in their forum screen names. 1: it’ll help us identify people, and 2:  if people want to remain anonymous with their real name it gives them an option too.  (Just a thought)
[/quote]

Not a bad thought at all ^^ Yeah they are there for good, I guess I missed that very crucial detail I thought they were just experimenting but no, here it is: https://99bitcoins.com/bitcoin-conference-2024-goodbye-to-miami-say-hello-to-nashville/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CWe%20believe%20that%20Bitcoin%20Nashville,to%20thrive%2C%E2%80%9D%20said%20Bailey.

I'm not able to make it this year, but the conference will mature when I plan to go the next year Its a bit of a treck for me but I think it'll be worth it. Plus I have some pretty good friends in nashville actually. I have always wanted to go there.

[elmejorrematador]

I have thought about all of this quite deeply. I come from a family of collectors, antique dealers. Grew up collecting coins, sports cards, and am quite knowledgeable in all types of collectibles.

Nobody knows anything about crypto, nobody has any idea about these crypto physical collectibles. I believe these collectibles will continue to rise in value, but it will be a niche market (just like it is now). So many people are already priced out on these things. The only people I see really buying these things is people who made some money on BTC/crypto and stumbled upon our forum or rich Boomers who sit at home and bid on auctions for things they don't need.

Unfortunately, the younger generations don't care for silver or gold or physical collectibles really. I wanted to gift my nephew and niece some Silver Morgans instead of giving them cash for Christmas and they couldn't have cared less. Last bull run, I absolutely loathed NFTs, but then I started to see how the younger generation absolutely vibed with it. So many of those kids spend countless hours on role playing games gaining xp and trying to get rare objects. So NFTs were kinda like a real world version of it.

Just this year I started following more about Ordinals/Inscriptions/etc. and I think that is going to be the ultra collectible item. Rare sats/early sats, sats from significant transactions,  maybe alot of you already know about this stuff. But these are the things normies can probably afford. But I can only imagine when BTC hits some incredible dollar values (i.e. 1 million per BTC) that sats will become some of the best and most liquid BTC memorabilia (and certainly nobody can scam or rob you on those and everything can be verified and stored away safely). And honestly, as much as I hated NFTs, because Ordinals/NFTs are on BTC, I kinda like some of them and even bought a couple "blue chips", hahaha. Perhaps I can accept it because i just see the opportunity to potentially gain more BTC. But I still feel like these kids that made it big on ETH NFTs last cycle are constantly searching for another win and Ordinals on BTC is something they can vibe with and we still more and more of that money cross over to the BTC/Ordinals NFT ecosystem.

I love my physical coin collection and I'd probably never even sell any of it, but I think only older rich folks are the ones who will "buy our bags", people with too much money looking to diversify their investments a bit. Last cycle a good buddy of mine was telling me how Steve Aoki (a famous DJ), just aped 10 million bucks worth of sports cards to put some money somewhere else. Our collectibles are way better than that garbage, and certainly much more rare and scarce. It still blows my mind people are paying Tens of thousands of dollars for such common baseball/collectible cards that flooded the market 1989 and onwards (i.e. pokemon card, Ken Griffey Jr rookie card, anything after 1990 for sure). But now that the BTC ETFs have been approved all these Boomers finally accept BTC as a real thing. I imagine that sentiment will carry over into the numismatics world and demand will grow amongst traditional coin collectors.

One concern of mine about the physical collectibles is if BTC does hit a million and I did want to sell the coin who is going to buy it? Not sure its ever happened, but has anyone ever peeled a perfectly good legitimate coin and something was wrong? Private key unreadable or just not there? Pretty big risk by the buyer at that price point. I would really hate to peel any of my coins.

Perhaps in the future a mainstream BTC/crypto physical collectible will catch on, something pretty well marketed and mass produced, then from there people will research earlier collectibles and these things will really become popular. If BTC hits 1 Million, then someone with a 1000 BTC Casascius will be hodling a billion dollar coin. That will be something the media might jump on and normies would have to take notice.

Anyway, just some thoughts.

[minerjones]

One concern of mine about the physical collectibles is if BTC does hit a million and I did want to sell the coin who is going to buy it? Not sure its ever happened, but has anyone ever peeled a perfectly good legitimate coin and something was wrong? Private key unreadable or just not there? Pretty big risk by the buyer at that price point. I would really hate to peel any of my coins.

Perhaps in the future a mainstream BTC/crypto physical collectible will catch on, something pretty well marketed and mass produced, then from there people will research earlier collectibles and these things will really become popular. If BTC hits 1 Million, then someone with a 1000 BTC Casascius will be hodling a billion dollar coin. That will be something the media might jump on and normies would have to take notice.

If bitcoin hits $1m, I would imagine there would be a lot of peeling going on... at that price point, what is your level of trust to that maker who produced the keys?
I would think it would be hard to find a buyer who is willing to shill out that much fiat in the hopes that btc will still be there in 5-10-20 years.

I have peeled many good coins and have been duped a few times. Most recently were a few Microsouls that had missing characters in the private key making them unredeemable and the btc trapped forever.
Another user (rxalts) redeemed a Lealana XMR coin where the private key had started to fade and became worse at time passed.

Even at this price point, I have recommend to some to redeem their coins versus having to deal with the logistics of transfer.

Is the 1000 btc coin really worth 1 billion at that point?  not really...   the btc may be worth that, but what is the value of the coin itself?
That's like folding up a $100 bill and taping it to a $1 coin...  "Now this coin is worth $101" 

[PreciousMetapsICT]

I have thought about all of this quite deeply. I come from a family of collectors, antique dealers. Grew up collecting coins, sports cards, and am quite knowledgeable in all types of collectibles.

Nobody knows anything about crypto, nobody has any idea about these crypto physical collectibles. I believe these collectibles will continue to rise in value, but it will be a niche market (just like it is now). So many people are already priced out on these things. The only people I see really buying these things is people who made some money on BTC/crypto and stumbled upon our forum or rich Boomers who sit at home and bid on auctions for things they don't need.

Unfortunately, the younger generations don't care for silver or gold or physical collectibles really. I wanted to gift my nephew and niece some Silver Morgans instead of giving them cash for Christmas and they couldn't have cared less. Last bull run, I absolutely loathed NFTs, but then I started to see how the younger generation absolutely vibed with it. So many of those kids spend countless hours on role playing games gaining xp and trying to get rare objects. So NFTs were kinda like a real world version of it.

Just this year I started following more about Ordinals/Inscriptions/etc. and I think that is going to be the ultra collectible item. Rare sats/early sats, sats from significant transactions,  maybe alot of you already know about this stuff. But these are the things normies can probably afford. But I can only imagine when BTC hits some incredible dollar values (i.e. 1 million per BTC) that sats will become some of the best and most liquid BTC memorabilia (and certainly nobody can scam or rob you on those and everything can be verified and stored away safely). And honestly, as much as I hated NFTs, because Ordinals/NFTs are on BTC, I kinda like some of them and even bought a couple "blue chips", hahaha. Perhaps I can accept it because i just see the opportunity to potentially gain more BTC. But I still feel like these kids that made it big on ETH NFTs last cycle are constantly searching for another win and Ordinals on BTC is something they can vibe with and we still more and more of that money cross over to the BTC/Ordinals NFT ecosystem.

I love my physical coin collection and I'd probably never even sell any of it, but I think only older rich folks are the ones who will "buy our bags", people with too much money looking to diversify their investments a bit. Last cycle a good buddy of mine was telling me how Steve Aoki (a famous DJ), just aped 10 million bucks worth of sports cards to put some money somewhere else. Our collectibles are way better than that garbage, and certainly much more rare and scarce. It still blows my mind people are paying Tens of thousands of dollars for such common baseball/collectible cards that flooded the market 1989 and onwards (i.e. pokemon card, Ken Griffey Jr rookie card, anything after 1990 for sure). But now that the BTC ETFs have been approved all these Boomers finally accept BTC as a real thing. I imagine that sentiment will carry over into the numismatics world and demand will grow amongst traditional coin collectors.

One concern of mine about the physical collectibles is if BTC does hit a million and I did want to sell the coin who is going to buy it? Not sure its ever happened, but has anyone ever peeled a perfectly good legitimate coin and something was wrong? Private key unreadable or just not there? Pretty big risk by the buyer at that price point. I would really hate to peel any of my coins.

Perhaps in the future a mainstream BTC/crypto physical collectible will catch on, something pretty well marketed and mass produced, then from there people will research earlier collectibles and these things will really become popular. If BTC hits 1 Million, then someone with a 1000 BTC Casascius will be hodling a billion dollar coin. That will be something the media might jump on and normies would have to take notice.

Anyway, just some thoughts.

You gotta be careful talking about that dirty bitcoin transactions called ordinals around here… Maxi’s hate it. Even tho one could argue it’s the only thing keeping miners in business and profitable. I can say that ordinals have paid for every physical crypto piece I have purchased for the last year and there’s a couple producers that I buy every release from. On top of that - it has made it fun again.

As collectibles go - I find it easy to trust the keys and the makers IF they exude confidence in themselves by the way they act, talk, and sell their products. They also need to demonstrate great organization and attention to detail.  It’s a basic trust that they are not keeping the keys AT ALL EVER and ALL keys are destroyed once printed. As we saw with Yogg, some lying piece of shits will keep keys with a plan to rug at some poin, but there were obvious warning signs (loans, unfilled orders, sketchy behavior). The longer a creator is in this space and doesn’t have issues - the more trustworthy they become. My current trust list is - Squirrelbits, MyBits, Lealana (although customer service sucks), Alpen, CypherHodl, CI if they ever put some more stuff out, Mopar Mining LLC (if I need keys made safely)—- probably a few others but these were easy to think of.

I see this market growing. I collected vintage silver/gold hand poured bars before this. I used to be able to pick them up near spot price or a few bucks over. Now some bars are 10x - 100x times spot or more. All it takes is time and new collectors. I imagine when these kids that have bitcoin get older, they will want to buy our bags. But hopefully sooner than that lol

[Honeybadger2014]

I usually buy collectibles because I like them in some way.  They speak to me.  They mark the journey that I went through.  I do not expect them to gain value in any way vs holding bitcoin.  But I only have one life, and I do like to enjoy some physical things once in a while. Therefore each buy in carefully considered against just buying bitcoin instead.   

Recently, I've noticed that while some of the quality of some items has drastically improved, the premiums are just way too high.  On top of this, my concern is with loaded items.  Now that we know that the "dust" on main chain will keep going up due to fees, why are artist STILL making pieces with small amount of sats on mainchain on those physicals?  I'd much rather have an unloaded item that I like in hand, than having a loaded item that will become unspendable some day (and that i paid much higher for!)  The premiums are already through the roof... I just don't get it... Is the goal to ultimately have those traded like an opendime?   

[elmejorrematador]

I usually buy collectibles because I like them in some way.  They speak to me.  They mark the journey that I went through.  I do not expect them to gain value in any way vs holding bitcoin.  But I only have one life, and I do like to enjoy some physical things once in a while. Therefore each buy in carefully considered against just buying bitcoin instead.   

Recently, I've noticed that while some of the quality of some items has drastically improved, the premiums are just way too high.  On top of this, my concern is with loaded items.  Now that we know that the "dust" on main chain will keep going up due to fees, why are artist STILL making pieces with small amount of sats on mainchain on those physicals?  I'd much rather have an unloaded item that I like in hand, than having a loaded item that will become unspendable some day (and that i paid much higher for!)  The premiums are already through the roof... I just don't get it... Is the goal to ultimately have those traded like an opendime?   

I really just like having loaded items, though now they are starting to seem more of a liability. But definitely the reason I like them is because they ARE actually Bitcoin. Buyer-funded coins or peeled coins just never appealed to me, I still prefer to have funded coins. I think my initial thought was that if I was to ever sell the coins that we might get a bigger premium because it was funded (assuming other people desire funded coins as I do). Before when BTC wasn't too much, selling one of these coins wasn't such a big deal, but now its like you pretty much gotta fly the damn thing to the buyer. I had thought about Stacks Bowers, but if by some chance you didn't get what you were looking to get it would be a shame.

When you mentioned about a loaded item becoming "unspendable", why might that happen? Could you paint me a scenario. I know a bit about dust attacks, but never really thought how they might affect loaded coins.

[Rymaster]

I am also curious where there might be other groups of collectors in this space outside of Btalk I will begin to list all I can think of (in no particular order)

1. Instagram
2. Redditt
3. Facebook
4. ebay
5. Youtube
6. Twitter/X
7. Scarce City
8. Discord
9. Telegram
10. AOL (LOL)
11. Other Forums


Any Missing? Thx to MinerJones & ChibiCty for the input - I think I will also add links to all of these.


Can you guys list any specific groups where there are crypto collectible enthusiasts or other lesser known populations of folks into this hobby? ....

Well I do think even a year later, a lot of your points are still spot on.

I am currently overhalling the Reddit group (r/CryptoCollectibles) started by hybridsole. As much as I enjoy this forum, sometimes it is also nice to have the information on a bit more of a modern media outlet. Plus I'm also already heavily on Reddit moderating the (r/CurrencyTradingCards) group anyways.

We'll see how it goes and how many "new" people may start to pay attention to the Reddit sub. I thoroughly enjoy all these collectibles for the short time I've collected and I'm sure if many knew they existed, they would love them just as much.

[gpfrag]

Again just look at his behavior and words. Not a very good spokes person for the hobby. I tend to upset leviathans in people though. You can't shake me.

There is no secret that I will build pieces for people including Casascious pieces. I encourage it and I'm sure Mike would to. The gold stickers were to bland for me to use. I like tradable rebuildable pieces. I'll have a specific tab on the website for rebuilt pieces soon. As long as you build with your name brand holos its good. If you build with some random DIY then those aren't, because no one knows who built them unless you use your own. It just makes sense. A rule of thumb If you ever find a DIY piece in the wild, you simply redeem it at the point when ownership changes and remove the hologram, BAMM! back to an original redeemed piece. so simple.

I have never bid in a Stack and Bowers auction........another false accusation, but for anyone reading this, feel free to go bid on them,  $1 starting bid.  

I don't think Patrick hurt any collectors, but Yes, he did contact me to help him. I help anyone who comes and asks for it. I'll even help you if you want it I won't believe your lies and put downs though. Patrick was arrested, but hasn't been convicted, I'll speak on him when the facts are known. Until then, I'll say innocent until proven guilty. We all know how corrupt the government is right now. Maybe they just wanted to silence him. Who knows. I don't approve of any kind of theft by anyone FYI but I'm also not a false accuser. Any one that is concerned with the SatPulse pieces, don't be, because Patrick never had access to keys.

I've spent the last couple decades promoting real wealth and putting gold, silver and bitcoin in peoples pockets. Yes, I got paid for it and I'm sure they are better off then they were.

Collect and say what you want, but Caribbean Treasures is the best entry pieces in the market today. They are the only pieces I know of that are being traded for goods and services. peer to peer. From $25 fully funded brass and silver pieces all the way up in denominations of 5g gold. When I'm done, they will create the largest bartering system of any territory in the world. What have you done for the hobby except twist words and spread falsehoods? No one is getting screwed. I'm simply giving people what I wish I had when I started, a silver and gold barter system with blockchain access. No matter if my bank or governments ban or block me, i can still transact amongst my peers. Hints freedom tools.

I'm glad I can live in your mind for free though, didn't you post something similar yesterday? Get a life!

I'm sure when my table is prepared in front of you, you'll accuse me of stealing the sterling forks, poisoning the drinks and that I touched you inappropriately too. Actually, you'll probably just buy one of my 10g piece for $350. haha that would be ironic.

okay kidding aside. The "word" talks about your behavior.

1 Peter 3:16
Having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.

Exodus 20:16
“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

Exodus 23:1
“You shall not spread a false report. You shall not join hands with a wicked man to be a malicious witness.

I will pray you find peace and that you heal any of the wounds that are unhealed.

Hey CT I like your items; they are unique in many ways and as you know have bought a few.  That said I also like/liked 1HODLClub’s items but it is worrisome that he He pulled a Nakamoto on us and just disappeared off the face of the Earth abandoning his website domain and not posting anything for a while.  I messaged him before he left the forum and he complained of haters which seems to be a common theme amongst makers for whatever reason.  As a relatively newer collector, I can say there are names or ‘brands’ that I gravitate towards because of their history and lack of security breeches.  I think the security is what scares people more than anything because you never REALLY know if the maker has your keys. My question for you is how do you as a maker differentiate yourself from the others in terms of security and what if any assurances can you provide regarding your process and product integrity?
There are some really cool, knowledgeable, and creative people here.  It would be awesome if the hobby could take off with greater security enhancements, audits, etc before it’s too late and too expensive to get into for the average Joe.

[polymerbit]

I think it's in the collective interest of our group to introduce more people to the space. Not only for a valuation standpoint, but because we'd get people from all corners of the world.

I'll be in Hong Kong (BTC Media conference), Tokyo and Manila showcasing collectibles. We're still very early and it'll take time (and effort) to get there.

Stacks and Heritage are doing the heavy lifting these days. Their exposure is without a doubt positively affecting our group.

[tread93]

I think it's in the collective interest of our group to introduce more people to the space. Not only for a valuation standpoint, but because we'd get people from all corners of the world.

I'll be in Hong Kong (BTC Media conference), Tokyo and Manila showcasing collectibles. We're still very early and it'll take time (and effort) to get there.

Stacks and Heritage are doing the heavy lifting these days. Their exposure is without a doubt positively affecting our group.

Well said brother, you of all people truly talk the talk and walk the walk when it comes to spreading the word of physical crypto. You've really done a magnificent job and there are few who put as much time and detail into their craft. I'm sure there are other auction houses that will join up in the mix. I can also see bitcoin and crypto collectibles scoping far beyond even coins and bills but really anything scarce of high quality or very popular. Could be something simple like the pez bitcoin or Duncan bitcoin yoyo. I just think the market is so much bigger than we think. Early bitcoin collectibles whether it be coins cards bills or anything I am pretty bullish on. People love history and one day there will be whole museums, stores, market vendors, etc etc dedicated to this kind of stuff IMO. Only time will tell.

[ChiBitCTy]

This hobby is struggling to an extent, but it’s going to get worse. Soon enough. People don’t want to listen to reason and pivot to a better/more secure space, rather carry on as status quo, so, history shall repeat itself.

I knew really good fake Cas holos had “recently” been discovered/ purchased last year or whatever. But I’m not sure I was aware they were being used to put on peeled cas coins / funding them.  Making them look “unpeeled”‘ again. This is what I would equate to a “mortal sin” within the hobby. The can of worms this opens up is massive. Has this been discussed in other threads, still being done? I can’t even begin to understand why this would be happening.  This is something 5-10 years ago the entire community would have lost their minds over. Now most of the community is gone, doesn’t feel like speaking up etc.   I mean 🤦‍♂️

I will probably make a post about this because this is something I feel very strongly about. Coins like Titan, Sol Noctis, 1HodlClub, Microsoul, Cold Storage coins etc are all being sold here, Stacks, Heritage, eBay, etc without any sort of “warning note”.  All of the coins I named are unquestionably at risk, high risk. This is the kind of thing that’s going to get these coins banned from auction houses soon. Ive said this many times and mark my words, it will happen. If you don’t want it to..speak up and out, now !

[SN347]

This hobby is struggling to an extent, but it’s going to get worse. Soon enough. People don’t want to listen to reason and pivot to a better/more secure space, rather carry on as status quo, so, history shall repeat itself.

I knew really good fake Cas holos had “recently” been discovered/ purchased last year or whatever. But I’m not sure I was aware they were being used to put on peeled cas coins / funding them.  Making them look “unpeeled”‘ again. This is what I would equate to a “mortal sin” within the hobby. The can of worms this opens up is massive. Has this been discussed in other threads, still being done? I can’t even begin to understand why this would be happening.  This is something 5-10 years ago the entire community would have lost their minds over. Now most of the community is gone, doesn’t feel like speaking up etc.   I mean 🤦‍♂️

If this is really true, then it needs to be made public to protect the remaining collectors... otherwise, we are going to get some very serious problems. If it's no longer possible to distinguish between originals and fakes, the entire field is 100% dead. It will die a slow D E A T H. Even coins with a clean history will no longer find a buyer.

Since when exactly have these faked CAS holograms been in circulation ??

[polymerbit]

If this is really true, then it needs to be made public to protect the remaining collectors... otherwise, we are going to get some very serious problems. If it's no longer possible to distinguish between originals and fakes, the entire field is 100% dead. It will die a slow D E A T H. Even coins with a clean history will no longer find a buyer.

Since when exactly have these faked CAS holograms been in circulation ??

The first time I held fake CAS holograms in my hand was in 2022/3. But the way Mikes' holograms were made used some very clever security techniques. Extremely advanced for 2011 and still easily hold up today. The only way to truly copy the hologram would be to have the "master". The physical engravings have encoded info above 10k DPI (probably E BEAM tech so at least 100k DPI) and can't truly be copied to the level where an auction house would struggle to know the difference.

With EBAM, you can shrink an extremely detailed map of the moon to the size of 1cm (https://www.optaglio.cz/en/e-beam-lithography). No scanner on earth could replicate it. Not to mention that engravings are actually 3D. So you'd need to get the right angle of the curves and even the varying thicknesses. Good luck with that.

Document security is typically split into four levels, with forensic being shared with the auction house. The fourth level is only known to the manufacturer.

On top of that, the consistency of the materials and chemical make up create a sort of signature. Like artwork that is worth millions is verified, so can Cas coins.

For example, each Polymerbit can be traced down to the printer, country and day it was made.

I can say with confidence that we've been researching these security risks for obvious reasons. I'm not overly concerned for the future of collectibles.

[SN347]

The first time I held fake CAS holograms in my hand was in 2022/3. But the way Mikes' holograms were made used some very clever security techniques. Extremely advanced for 2011 and still easily hold up today. The only way to truly copy the hologram would be to have the "master". The physical engravings have encoded info above 10k DPI (probably E BEAM tech so at least 100k DPI) and can't truly be copied to the level where an auction house would struggle to know the difference.

With EBAM, you can shrink an extremely detailed map of the moon to the size of 1cm (https://www.optaglio.cz/en/e-beam-lithography). No scanner on earth could replicate it. Not to mention that engravings are actually 3D. So you'd need to get the right angle of the curves and even the varying thicknesses. Good luck with that.

Document security is typically split into four levels, with forensic being shared with the auction house. The fourth level is only known to the manufacturer.

On top of that, the consistency of the materials and chemical make up create a sort of signature. Like artwork that is worth millions is verified, so can Cas coins.

For example, each Polymerbit can be traced down to the printer, country and day it was made.

I can say with confidence that we've been researching these security risks for obvious reasons. I'm not overly concerned for the future of collectibles.

What I knew so far was that DEFCON hackers had succeeded in removing and replace holograms from the 2012 coins without leaving any visible traces https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2013/08/13/defcon-hackers-crack-physical-bitcoin-casascius-coins

Even if it’s really hard or nearly impossible, we gotta be ready for new fakes anytime.. do you know what series those fake holograms are from and are there any pics of the fake holos

[Kazkaz27]

If this is really true, then it needs to be made public to protect the remaining collectors... otherwise, we are going to get some very serious problems. If it's no longer possible to distinguish between originals and fakes, the entire field is 100% dead. It will die a slow D E A T H. Even coins with a clean history will no longer find a buyer.

Since when exactly have these faked CAS holograms been in circulation ??

The first time I held fake CAS holograms in my hand was in 2022/3. But the way Mikes' holograms were made used some very clever security techniques. Extremely advanced for 2011 and still easily hold up today. The only way to truly copy the hologram would be to have the "master". The physical engravings have encoded info above 10k DPI (probably E BEAM tech so at least 100k DPI) and can't truly be copied to the level where an auction house would struggle to know the difference.

With EBAM, you can shrink an extremely detailed map of the moon to the size of 1cm (https://www.optaglio.cz/en/e-beam-lithography). No scanner on earth could replicate it. Not to mention that engravings are actually 3D. So you'd need to get the right angle of the curves and even the varying thicknesses. Good luck with that.

Document security is typically split into four levels, with forensic being shared with the auction house. The fourth level is only known to the manufacturer.

On top of that, the consistency of the materials and chemical make up create a sort of signature. Like artwork that is worth millions is verified, so can Cas coins.

For example, each Polymerbit can be traced down to the printer, country and day it was made.

I can say with confidence that we've been researching these security risks for obvious reasons. I'm not overly concerned for the future of collectibles.

I wholeheartedly agree with Polymerbit on this. On top of that if Public keys are known and attached to physicals they can be checked - Verifying there originality & legitimacy. No two keys are the same. Check the addresses attached to physicals and confirm them. These fake CAS copies will have tell-tale signs within the addresses as well as the holograms.

[polymerbit]

The first time I held fake CAS holograms in my hand was in 2022/3. But the way Mikes' holograms were made used some very clever security techniques. Extremely advanced for 2011 and still easily hold up today. The only way to truly copy the hologram would be to have the "master". The physical engravings have encoded info above 10k DPI (probably E BEAM tech so at least 100k DPI) and can't truly be copied to the level where an auction house would struggle to know the difference.

With EBAM, you can shrink an extremely detailed map of the moon to the size of 1cm (https://www.optaglio.cz/en/e-beam-lithography). No scanner on earth could replicate it. Not to mention that engravings are actually 3D. So you'd need to get the right angle of the curves and even the varying thicknesses. Good luck with that.

Document security is typically split into four levels, with forensic being shared with the auction house. The fourth level is only known to the manufacturer.

On top of that, the consistency of the materials and chemical make up create a sort of signature. Like artwork that is worth millions is verified, so can Cas coins.

For example, each Polymerbit can be traced down to the printer, country and day it was made.

I can say with confidence that we've been researching these security risks for obvious reasons. I'm not overly concerned for the future of collectibles.

What I knew so far was that DEFCON hackers had succeeded in removing and replace holograms from the 2012 coins without leaving any visible traces https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2013/08/13/defcon-hackers-crack-physical-bitcoin-casascius-coins

Even if it’s really hard or nearly impossible, we gotta be ready for new fakes anytime.. do you know what series those fake holograms are from and are there any pics of the fake holos

Visible traces are a bit of a misnomer. There's an injection site for the adhesive neutralizer. While it could be argued to look like wear and tear to the naked eye at a quick glance, the valuations of these coins have now exceeded normal circulation parameters and certainly require authentication.

Closer examination is generally conducted by microscope under such circumstances. Perforations cannot be hidden. Even with attempting to fuse the plastic together, it'll warp and the structure will be visible in the right wave lengths. Traces of this adhesive removal chemical will also be detectable.

You may find this thread interesting. I understand why you may feel there's cause for alarm, but the amount of experts involved today reduce the risk.

As with normal numismatics, fakes have existed for millennia. Genuine coins are still identified and generally don't lose their value even with this risk.

As with anything valuable, the sellers provenance is important... and so is forensic verification.

Here's the thread you may find interesting.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3257048.200

I hope this helps you feel less concerned about the risks.

[Kazkaz27]

Visible traces are a bit of a misnomer. There's an injection site for the adhesive neutralizer. While it could be argued to look like wear and tear to the naked eye at a quick glance, the valuations of these coins have now exceeded normal circulation parameters and certainly require authentication.

Closer examination is generally conducted by microscope under such circumstances. Perforations cannot be hidden. Even with attempting to fuse the plastic together, it'll warp and the structure will be visible in the right wave lengths. Traces of this adhesive removal chemical will also be detectable.

You may find this thread interesting. I understand why you may feel there's cause for alarm, but the amount of experts involved today reduce the risk.

As with normal numismatics, fakes have existed for millennia. Genuine coins are still identified and generally don't lose their value even with this risk.

As with anything valuable, the sellers provenance is important... and so is forensic verification.

Here's the thread you may find interesting.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3257048.200

I hope this helps you feel less concerned about the risks.

Incredibly well said. Again could not agree more 👍