Account wiped with $64k on Rollbit.com

[holydarkness]

Petermario, I learned that other than escalating to this forum, you also trying to get it resolved by reaching to their complaint team [or something like that]. As such, Razer can't do much, as that means of communication is now the one Rollbit is focusing themselves on.

Well let's be honest, Razor pretty much shattered the case with his reply anyway. I don't see that he has any interest to step away from his initial reply.
Also, he never even came back here, so now him claiming it's out of his hands is just another classic move we have seen before.

Of course the player goes through any means necessary when he feels that he is getting cheated and treated unfairly. Other players do the same, have a case open here as well as on askgamblers or something similar, and nobody complained about this before.

Always the same.

Yes, I can understand that when players are on a situation, they'll most likely tries and exhaust every means possible to get their case resolved. But, to address one of your point, actually there are instances when cases got escalated to arbitrator or to other channel with higher authority than this forum and the casino's representative will refrain from addressing the issue in any other channel but the one they deemed fit most. This is one of the reason why, aside from trying to deescalate the issue, I usually suggest players to see if the forum can get their situation resolved prior to having it escalated to an arbitrator.

[Petermario]

Petermario, I learned that other than escalating to this forum, you also trying to get it resolved by reaching to their complaint team [or something like that]. As such, Razer can't do much, as that means of communication is now the one Rollbit is focusing themselves on.

Well let's be honest, Razor pretty much shattered the case with his reply anyway. I don't see that he has any interest to step away from his initial reply.
Also, he never even came back here, so now him claiming it's out of his hands is just another classic move we have seen before.

Of course the player goes through any means necessary when he feels that he is getting cheated and treated unfairly. Other players do the same, have a case open here as well as on askgamblers or something similar, and nobody complained about this before.

Always the same.

Yes, I can understand that when players are on a situation, they'll most likely tries and exhaust every means possible to get their case resolved. But, to address one of your point, actually there are instances when cases got escalated to arbitrator or to other channel with higher authority than this forum and the casino's representative will refrain from addressing the issue in any other channel but the one they deemed fit most. This is one of the reason why, aside from trying to deescalate the issue, I usually suggest players to see if the forum can get their situation resolved prior to having it escalated to an arbitrator.

I just sent them an email as I was referred to them by the Rollbit support team, but havent engaged with them or an arbitrator since trying to resolve it through the forum. If they are not willing to hear me out here, what do you suggest I do? I think that trying to resolve it with their compliance team is a dead end (they said for them its case closed in the email I attached), so I highly doubt they will listen to me.

I am a bit lost at this point, as it is a lot of money that they have quite literally taken from me for no good reason. I would think that they would like to keep their reputation intact as I have heard they are trying to apply to operate in the UK?

Would really appreciate your advice here.

[holydarkness]

Yes, I can understand that when players are on a situation, they'll most likely tries and exhaust every means possible to get their case resolved. But, to address one of your point, actually there are instances when cases got escalated to arbitrator or to other channel with higher authority than this forum and the casino's representative will refrain from addressing the issue in any other channel but the one they deemed fit most. This is one of the reason why, aside from trying to deescalate the issue, I usually suggest players to see if the forum can get their situation resolved prior to having it escalated to an arbitrator.

I just sent them an email as I was referred to them by the Rollbit support team, but havent engaged with them or an arbitrator since trying to resolve it through the forum. If they are not willing to hear me out here, what do you suggest I do? I think that trying to resolve it with their compliance team is a dead end (they said for them its case closed in the email I attached), so I highly doubt they will listen to me.

I am a bit lost at this point, as it is a lot of money that they have quite literally taken from me for no good reason. I would think that they would like to keep their reputation intact as I have heard they are trying to apply to operate in the UK?

Would really appreciate your advice here.

To be blunt, I don't think there is much option for you right now. From what I understand from Razer's reply, Rollbit will reach try to resolve this and get in touch with you through that email with compliance team, so I think that's the only way you can take right now.

You can always update us with the development of your situation, I'll try to nudge Razer if you're stuck during the process.

[Petermario]

[/quote]

To be blunt, I don't think there is much option for you right now. From what I understand from Razer's reply, Rollbit will reach try to resolve this and get in touch with you through that email with compliance team, so I think that's the only way you can take right now.

You can always update us with the development of your situation, I'll try to nudge Razer if you're stuck during the process.
[/quote]

Okay, appreciate your input. In the spirit of transparency I will document here all of the communications with their compliance team, hopefully we can move the conversation into the forum as I believe it will lead to the fairer outcome.

Please see below my draft reply to their compliance team (I shared their original email in an earlier post). Would you highlight any other points to make my case stronger?

https://www.talkimg.com/images/2024/06/29/h0k1c.png

[Pmalek]

I think you have covered most of the important issues except for one thing: your logins to your Rollbit account from a UK IP address. Razor mentioned that some of your playtime was connected with a UK IP. You explained that you were using a UK SIM card for work. I think you should provide more information about that and perhaps also get in touch with your UK data provider in a similar way like you did with Vodafone ES and ask them about IPs and data roaming. Are you able to provide proof when you purchased the UK sim card and started using it? It might also be important to prove that you never played while in the UK, and that you didn't reside there at any time while betting on Rollbit. Sadly, you lied to their support about that, and they can always consider that an infraction. However, it's not one that justifies confiscating all your winnings.

[AHOYBRAUSE]

I think you have covered most of the important issues except for one thing: your logins to your Rollbit account from a UK IP address. Razor mentioned that some of your playtime was connected with a UK IP. You explained that you were using a UK SIM card for work. I think you should provide more information about that and perhaps also get in touch with your UK data provider in a similar way like you did with Vodafone ES and ask them about IPs and data roaming. Are you able to provide proof when you purchased the UK sim card and started using it? It might also be important to prove that you never played while in the UK, and that you didn't reside there at any time while betting on Rollbit. Sadly, you lied to their support about that, and they can always consider that an infraction. However, it's not one that justifies confiscating all your winnings.

Yeah that one still has some question marks around it.
I mean he also said the he went (visited) London at some point, so that is also a possibility for the IPs. Problem is, if he played there it might not really violate the terms since the rules only say that people that reside somewhere are not allowed to play. Visiting is not residing, but who know.
Also, if he really played there and they want to blame him for that they could only confiscate the winnings he made while being there. Other winnings should not be effected in my opinion.

Last but not least, Razor said their should be a message he is not allowed to play, I just tried rollbit with a Spanish and a UK IP and there no no message, just saying.
Also, if there is just a message what would stop a player?? At stake for example, if I open it with a banned region IP it doesn't even properly open the site, just a big fat you are not allowed to play with this IP message.

[holydarkness]

As Pmalek said, I think your email is already good enough, one thing that can make it better is if you can supplement it with similar explanation from your UK provider. Regarding whether you've ever playing from UK, it'll be harder to prove, and I think they have to accept it at face value. The other alternative will be to let them void all of the winnings happened when your IP shows as UK and let you keep the ones from ES/LUX.

[...] Problem is, if he played there it might not really violate the terms since the rules only say that people that reside somewhere are not allowed to play. Visiting is not residing, but who know.[...]

I might be wrong, but IIRC the rule to forbid users who resides in restricted country is to be compliant with the gambling regulation of that country, i.e. they forbid users from playing from UK not because they have something against UK, blacklisting UK, or something around that, it's rather because they don't have the permit [and legally compliant] to offer their service there, so they simply can't let people play on their platform from those territories.

Thus, even when someone visiting and not residing, or to put it in a more extreme, even if someone just get past the transit zone [IIRC, transit zone ara considered as a sterile area where you're technically yet to be in the country's soil] and the immigration post, they'll still be considered accessing from prohibited country.

[Disclaimer: I think... even if we access gambling platforms from the transit area of a prohibited territory, that we've not get past the immigration post, we'll still be considered as violating their term. Because eventhough we're yet to be technically on their soil, we still have already entered their jurisdiction].

[Rating Place]

As Pmalek said, I think your email is already good enough, one thing that can make it better is if you can supplement it with similar explanation from your UK provider. Regarding whether you've ever playing from UK, it'll be harder to prove, and I think they have to accept it at face value. The other alternative will be to let them void all of the winnings happened when your IP shows as UK and let you keep the ones from ES/LUX.

[...] Problem is, if he played there it might not really violate the terms since the rules only say that people that reside somewhere are not allowed to play. Visiting is not residing, but who know.[...]

I might be wrong, but IIRC the rule to forbid users who resides in restricted country is to be compliant with the gambling regulation of that country, i.e. they forbid users from playing from UK not because they have something against UK, blacklisting UK, or something around that, it's rather because they don't have the permit [and legally compliant] to offer their service there, so they simply can't let people play on their platform from those territories.

Thus, even when someone visiting and not residing, or to put it in a more extreme, even if someone just get past the transit zone [IIRC, transit zone ara considered as a sterile area where you're technically yet to be in the country's soil] and the immigration post, they'll still be considered accessing from prohibited country.

[Disclaimer: I think... even if we access gambling platforms from the transit area of a prohibited territory, that we've not get past the immigration post, we'll still be considered as violating their term. Because eventhough we're yet to be technically on their soil, we still have already entered their jurisdiction].

If a casino is going to use jurisdiction as a reason not to pay, can losing players recoup losses if playing from banned jurisdictions? I think whatever rules are enforced should be enforced both ways instead of putting the player in a lose/lose situation. Rollbit will accept losses from banned jurisdictions, they should pay out wins.

[holydarkness]

If a casino is going to use jurisdiction as a reason not to pay, can losing players recoup losses if playing from banned jurisdictions? I think whatever rules are enforced should be enforced both ways instead of putting the player in a lose/lose situation. Rollbit will accept losses from banned jurisdictions, they should pay out wins.

Will winning players openly admit winning if playing from banned jurisdiction?

[Rating Place]

If a casino is going to use jurisdiction as a reason not to pay, can losing players recoup losses if playing from banned jurisdictions? I think whatever rules are enforced should be enforced both ways instead of putting the player in a lose/lose situation. Rollbit will accept losses from banned jurisdictions, they should pay out wins.

Will winning players openly admit winning if playing from banned jurisdiction?

Never, but the player isn't putting the casino in a lose/lose situation. The casino is putting the player in a lose/lose situation. The balance of the scale is unfair.

[holydarkness]

If a casino is going to use jurisdiction as a reason not to pay, can losing players recoup losses if playing from banned jurisdictions? I think whatever rules are enforced should be enforced both ways instead of putting the player in a lose/lose situation. Rollbit will accept losses from banned jurisdictions, they should pay out wins.

Will winning players openly admit winning if playing from banned jurisdiction?

Never, but the player isn't putting the casino in a lose/lose situation. The casino is putting the player in a lose/lose situation. The balance of the scale is unfair.

Do you read the irony?

[Rating Place]

If a casino is going to use jurisdiction as a reason not to pay, can losing players recoup losses if playing from banned jurisdictions? I think whatever rules are enforced should be enforced both ways instead of putting the player in a lose/lose situation. Rollbit will accept losses from banned jurisdictions, they should pay out wins.

Will winning players openly admit winning if playing from banned jurisdiction?

Never, but the player isn't putting the casino in a lose/lose situation. The casino is putting the player in a lose/lose situation. The balance of the scale is unfair.

Do you read the irony?

I can understand what you are saying but the casino is going to catch everyone that wins a substantial amount of money. The player will never be able to recoup losses. Also, the casino is stealing from innocent players caught in the net. unfortunately, this player has no chance even if innocent. Rollbit just got away with $400 in the other case, they aren't paying $64k.

If the rules say "resident", why does it matter where he played from? You answered above but we can't make the player guess as long as he abided by the ToS. There is nothing about where play comes from in the rules.

[Petermario]

As Pmalek said, I think your email is already good enough, one thing that can make it better is if you can supplement it with similar explanation from your UK provider. Regarding whether you've ever playing from UK, it'll be harder to prove, and I think they have to accept it at face value. The other alternative will be to let them void all of the winnings happened when your IP shows as UK and let you keep the ones from ES/LUX.

[...] Problem is, if he played there it might not really violate the terms since the rules only say that people that reside somewhere are not allowed to play. Visiting is not residing, but who know.[...]

I might be wrong, but IIRC the rule to forbid users who resides in restricted country is to be compliant with the gambling regulation of that country, i.e. they forbid users from playing from UK not because they have something against UK, blacklisting UK, or something around that, it's rather because they don't have the permit [and legally compliant] to offer their service there, so they simply can't let people play on their platform from those territories.

Thus, even when someone visiting and not residing, or to put it in a more extreme, even if someone just get past the transit zone [IIRC, transit zone ara considered as a sterile area where you're technically yet to be in the country's soil] and the immigration post, they'll still be considered accessing from prohibited country.

[Disclaimer: I think... even if we access gambling platforms from the transit area of a prohibited territory, that we've not get past the immigration post, we'll still be considered as violating their term. Because eventhough we're yet to be technically on their soil, we still have already entered their jurisdiction].

Okay thank you both, I will try to get the same sort of email from the UK phone provider. For now I sent them the email as it was, will let you know what they reply.

[Pmalek]

I mean he also said the he went (visited) London at some point, so that is also a possibility for the IPs. Problem is, if he played there it might not really violate the terms since the rules only say that people that reside somewhere are not allowed to play. Visiting is not residing, but who know.

I wouldn't count on that explanation working. If UK is a banned territory, you shouldn't play from there, whether you reside in it or just visiting. Think about people with dual citizenship. They would essentially have free pass to cheat. If the casino tells them UK players aren't allowed, they can always say, I am not from the UK, here are my documents that confirm I am from X country.

Last but not least, Razor said their should be a message he is not allowed to play, I just tried rollbit with a Spanish and a UK IP and there no no message, just saying.

How did you try it? Did you just visit the website or did you try to log in to your account?

Not sure why it's not working for you, but this message is what I see using a UK IP:

It looks like you’re visiting us from the UK.

To provide you with the best experience and localized content, we will redirect you to our UK website.

A few seconds later, I got redirected to https://www.rollbit.co.uk/.

Also, if there is just a message what would stop a player??

A message is enough. If players decide to ignore it or circumvent it, they should face the consequences. Obviously, not being able to use the casino at all would be even better.

If a casino is going to use jurisdiction as a reason not to pay, can losing players recoup losses if playing from banned jurisdictions? I think whatever rules are enforced should be enforced both ways instead of putting the player in a lose/lose situation. Rollbit will accept losses from banned jurisdictions, they should pay out wins.

Don't you see how your proposal puts casinos in an always losing situation?

- I play from a restricted country, win, try to withdraw, and they pay me without noticing it.
- I play from a restricted country, win, try to withdraw, they realize I am in a banned territory and freeze my account. I then complain how they allowed me to play from a restricted country and get my deposits back.

Whatever happens, I don't lose my initial deposits and I stand to win if they don't notice me cheating. 

[holydarkness]

Will winning players openly admit winning if playing from banned jurisdiction?

Never, but the player isn't putting the casino in a lose/lose situation. The casino is putting the player in a lose/lose situation. The balance of the scale is unfair.

Do you read the irony?

I can understand what you are saying but the casino is going to catch everyone that wins a substantial amount of money. The player will never be able to recoup losses. Also, the casino is stealing from innocent players caught in the net. unfortunately, this player has no chance even if innocent. Rollbit just got away with $400 in the other case, they aren't paying $64k.

If the rules say "resident", why does it matter where he played from? You answered above but we can't make the player guess as long as he abided by the ToS. There is nothing about where play comes from in the rules.

The other case with 400 USD, if you read them thoroughly, it's the bonus that's voided, not user's own balance. Rollbit did not go away with their player's fund on that case. True that if the OP of that thread said the whole truth, that he didn't try to tamper with his exclusion due to his addiction [I believe we're very familiar with these situation], it would be rather cruel for Rollbit to dangle a bonus of 400 USD after 30 days of grace period, and retract it on the last day. The question is, can we really take the player's story for granted?

For your second paragraph, to be blunt, I'm not sure what's the point of your [what I can only consider as] rambling. you asked a question I've explained, then acknowledged yourself that the question has been answered [thus, rather useless], then you inquire about casino shouldn't make player guess? Guess what, exactly? Whether they're accessing from restricted teritory or not? They don't have to guess, they're most likely being listed on the casino's ToS, they only need to read that. And yes, there is nothing about where play[er] comes from, it's about residency and access point and compliance to the rule within that country, not about someone's nationality. So, can you perhaps rephrase to better convey your point?

[Rating Place]

Will winning players openly admit winning if playing from banned jurisdiction?

Never, but the player isn't putting the casino in a lose/lose situation. The casino is putting the player in a lose/lose situation. The balance of the scale is unfair.

Do you read the irony?

I can understand what you are saying but the casino is going to catch everyone that wins a substantial amount of money. The player will never be able to recoup losses. Also, the casino is stealing from innocent players caught in the net. unfortunately, this player has no chance even if innocent. Rollbit just got away with $400 in the other case, they aren't paying $64k.

If the rules say "resident", why does it matter where he played from? You answered above but we can't make the player guess as long as he abided by the ToS. There is nothing about where play comes from in the rules.

The other case with 400 USD, if you read them thoroughly, it's the bonus that's voided, not user's own balance. Rollbit did not go away with their player's fund on that case. True that if the OP of that thread said the whole truth, that he didn't try to tamper with his exclusion due to his addiction [I believe we're very familiar with these situation], it would be rather cruel for Rollbit to dangle a bonus of 400 USD after 30 days of grace period, and retract it on the last day. The question is, can we really take the player's story for granted?

For your second paragraph, to be blunt, I'm not sure what's the point of your [what I can only consider as] rambling. you asked a question I've explained, then acknowledged yourself that the question has been answered [thus, rather useless], then you inquire about casino shouldn't make player guess? Guess what, exactly? Whether they're accessing from restricted teritory or not? They don't have to guess, they're most likely being listed on the casino's ToS, they only need to read that. And yes, there is nothing about where play[er] comes from, it's about residency and access point and compliance to the rule within that country, not about someone's nationality. So, can you perhaps rephrase to better convey your point?

  $400 in rewards were stolen. $64k is being stolen. Which rule in the ToS was broken by the player in this thread? We shouldn’t play lawyer for books.

[holydarkness]

The other case with 400 USD, if you read them thoroughly, it's the bonus that's voided, not user's own balance. Rollbit did not go away with their player's fund on that case. True that if the OP of that thread said the whole truth, that he didn't try to tamper with his exclusion due to his addiction [I believe we're very familiar with these situation], it would be rather cruel for Rollbit to dangle a bonus of 400 USD after 30 days of grace period, and retract it on the last day. The question is, can we really take the player's story for granted?

For your second paragraph, to be blunt, I'm not sure what's the point of your [what I can only consider as] rambling. you asked a question I've explained, then acknowledged yourself that the question has been answered [thus, rather useless], then you inquire about casino shouldn't make player guess? Guess what, exactly? Whether they're accessing from restricted teritory or not? They don't have to guess, they're most likely being listed on the casino's ToS, they only need to read that. And yes, there is nothing about where play[er] comes from, it's about residency and access point and compliance to the rule within that country, not about someone's nationality. So, can you perhaps rephrase to better convey your point?

  $400 in rewards were stolen. $64k is being stolen. Which rule in the ToS was broken by the player in this thread? We shouldn’t play lawyer for books.

If we take OP's narrative here as the working story and that he tell us the whole situation, nothing. There's nothing on the ToS that OP broke. And that's what we try to resolve here. We suggested OP to have video KYC suppose that option become available, we suggested OP to reach to his Spanish provider to get a written statement about his IP, and we suggested him to do the same with his UK provider to solidify his position.

I don't think anyone play as lawyer for rollbit here. You should have understand all of that if you read the thread carefully. Which post indicated and gave you impression that someone is playing lawyer for the book?

[Petermario]

Hi everyone, Rollbit got back to me with the following email (see attached below), I am still drafting a response and will send a draft across here first, but I think their arguments/points in their email are deeply flawed, at least they have admitted the point on the mobile phone IP location.

https://www.talkimg.com/images/2024/07/09/ocnWC.png

1. They suggest that the due to me living in the UK currently (I still have not moved and still reside in LUX), voids the fact that I lived in LUX when using the account. This argument does not hold up, as I have been residing in LUX throughout the time of opening and using my account, therefore it is irrelevant where my current location is (again, I am still in LUX).

2. They argue that it is "extremely unlikely" that I reside and live there given there have been no IP hits. This has been explained in length, but I only used my phone to connect to Rollbit and I always use my data as they are unlimited. I believe a KYC will help them place me in LUX for the time I have been using the account (and currently).

3. They ask why wouldnt I use my Wifi even at home, and the fact is that I always use the data on my phone given I dont have restrictions on usage.

Could you please help me on some proof or suggestions I could make to them so we can move the case forward?

Thank you very much

[Rating Place]

The whole case comes down to your residence. Their talk about phone records and IP are just smoke and mirrors. Get as much proof as possible showing that you reside in LUX. Rollbit is not going to fold here, but this will help with arbitration elsewhere.

[AHOYBRAUSE]

snip

Well it's actually hard to help you since even we try it seems like rollbit is resisting any arguments.
They repeatedly said you "admitted to live in the UK" but when I asked you weeks ago about that you said that you never did.
Sure it should not matter for this case if you live there now when the actual gameplay was made somewhere else.

I do agree with rollbit about 1 thing though. It would appear strange if there is actually not 1 single LUX IP in your history. Maybe you are very strict about your habits and really only play with the phone provider IP but even I for example sometimes use the wifi in my gym or some hotel or whatever to check my account and claim some bonus or whatever, not necessarily for gaming.