Is taxation theft?

[alani123]

but even before those events of officiating it nationally in countries, people were taxed based on their income. even the story of robinhood shows how people living in the realms of the king were taxed. and had tax collectors, so taxation was a known thing even centuries ago

best quote i ever heard:
if empires were run by emperors
if kingdoms were run by kings
what are modern countries run by  

It's interesting, people forget our collective history as humans.
Before capitalism we had feudalism which arguably was a system with a much more stringent and oppressive tax system.
You would work just to survive. If you were born in a poor family getting an education or owning any business was a distant dream. You would work on a surf's field only to be able to keep some crops for you to survive.
ironically enough the work hours then were less than the ones under capitalism in the industrial revolution but still the outcomes were worse.

Capitalism did have some improvements in terms of freedom. But as a system even after two or three centuries being tried as industrial capitalism m, it had failed to address so many basic issues. Judging by how undemocratic the process of how our taxes are being handled is still, it seems as though the system never wants to fix itself unless people change it from the bottom up.

[el kaka22]

This one was an easy one for me, of course it is not theft, of course it is justified. The problem with the poll is that the topic name asks something else whereas the poll something else, so the answers could be mixed here I am afraid. I think the best thing to do right now would be just realizing that you are not going to end up with anything better, it is going to cost you a lot if you do not know what you are doing.

The best thing to do would be just realizing it is going to be tough, and if you know what you are doing, then you should be fine. Taxed or not, governments need that money to continue and if you do not want to pay taxes, you won't have a government and that is going to be the hardest part of it all.

[michellee]

If taxes will be used to develop the country, that will not a theft but that will be the money that every citizen pay to their country. Paying the taxes is an obligation from their citizen because the government will build many infrastructure and facilities for their citizen. If the government don't use the taxes for corruption, their country will develop and grow better than before.

The amount of tax can tempts officials to use that taxes for a wrong thing such as corruption so the development of the country can works as its plan. That will must be prevents by the government so they must guard the taxes from the corrupt officials and use it for their country. Crypto now has been taxed but the amount is different from one country to another.

We can only obey the rules from the government and if they asked us to pay the taxes, we should do that because the government can do anything for their citizen that is not follow their rules. We can only hopes that all taxes can be used with properly to develop our country.

[WatChe]

This one was an easy one for me, of course it is not theft, of course it is justified. The problem with the poll is that the topic name asks something else whereas the poll something else, so the answers could be mixed here I am afraid. I think the best thing to do right now would be just realizing that you are not going to end up with anything better, it is going to cost you a lot if you do not know what you are doing.

The best thing to do would be just realizing it is going to be tough, and if you know what you are doing, then you should be fine. Taxed or not, governments need that money to continue and if you do not want to pay taxes, you won't have a government and that is going to be the hardest part of it all.

Tax is not a theft if your government is giving you good standard of life like health, education, infrastructure etc. But it's a theft if government is collecting it so that only people in power can enjoy good life. To me countries like USA and EU are justified in imposing high taxes since they are getting good facilities to there citizens in return.

[naira]

Tax is the confiscation of someone's property rights which is disguised as "legitimate". If we refer to bitcoiner principles, of course this is a contradictory ethic, but we also cannot completely discredit the tax system as justified theft. This means who and what was the first to carry it out. Of course, taxes have been around for a long time, the aim of which is to provide income for a country, community or group of people to survive by ensuring security as part of a group, society or citizens to run a structured government.

[reagansimms]

The government only informs each citizen about taxpayers, they never directly ask each individual to pay taxes. The regulations implemented by the government seem cruel because they take other people's property without that person's consent, but that's how they work, whenever they have the opportunity they will cut it automatically without having to ask permission first. This cannot be called theft, because it is legalized in law, every good citizen must always obey every rule issued by the government, for example crypto taxation, if the government does not facilitate and supervise centralized exchanges, then you will have difficulty finding a place to convert Bitcoin into Dollar. The government will manage these taxes to build infrastructure and all public facilities. Here there is a mutually beneficial relationship, without realizing it, you will also enjoy all the facilities provided by the state from the tax money they take without your knowledge.

[Dr.Bitcoin_Strange]

Well, yeah, I would agree that taxation is theft based on the fact that it is money or property that is taken out of an individual's assets, capital, or property without being appropriately approved by the individual (without the consent of the owner). Despite the fact the fact that it could be seen as theft because of how it is carried out, I think it is a justifiable theft due to the good it is used for. If the tax that is collected is put to good use by the government, such as to develop the country, take care of social amenities, and fix up infrastructures, then every citizen will still enjoy the good work of their tax. 

Taxation didn't start today, according to studies. I have known that taxation started 6 thousand years B.C., and the "income tax" was first introduced in 1799 in Great Britain, while income tax was also introduced in my country around 1904. I think it's absolutely pointless to argue whether taxation is theft or not. After the argument, what can you do? Force the government to change the pattern of tax collection, or what?

[skarais]

The government only informs each citizen about taxpayers, they never directly ask each individual to pay taxes.

When the tax regulations have been passed, they will only ask you to pay off your obligation to pay them every year. You may never be asked to pay taxes directly, but wait until the balance in your account reaches the taxpayer limit and then a notification letter for tax payment comes to your house without you asking for it.

The regulations implemented by the government seem cruel because they take other people's property without that person's consent, but that's how they work, whenever they have the opportunity they will cut it automatically without having to ask permission first. This cannot be called theft, because it is legalized in law, every good citizen must always obey every rule issued by the government, for example crypto taxation, if the government does not facilitate and supervise centralized exchanges, then you will have difficulty finding a place to convert Bitcoin into Dollar. The government will manage these taxes to build infrastructure and all public facilities. Here there is a mutually beneficial relationship, without realizing it, you will also enjoy all the facilities provided by the state from the tax money they take without your knowledge.

I understand the process of making a new regulation to produce a law, this of course requires approval from the people's representatives, in the case of those we elected in yesterday's election. I'm not sure whether these people can vote to agree or not, so the impression is that this tax law is something that was agreed to by one side or another. It is the people who bear the burden where every year they have to pay taxes and report them, of course no one is happy about this.

The government never wants to know how many hours you work in a day and how many days you work in a year. What they ask from you is taxes as long as the amount of assets you earn from your job in a year meets the taxpayer's requirements. Even the smallest, every item you buy today, including cigarettes, electricity bills, WiFi bills, TV package subscriptions and many others, requires you to pay tax. Are you happy with all that?

[coolcoinz]

when citizens vote they choose who manages the country whom determines how laws and policy is made
people AGREE and consent to be managed which comes with costs, people agree that some situations of life are not assured and so they agree that some representatives of the masses can organise such funds to the distribute to the services/functions that are needed which individuals cant do for themselves.

so tax is not theft when its part of the law that had been agreed to by the representatives the majority consented to

Here's the problem. What if all candidates suck ass and you don't want to vote for any of them, but one will eventually be chosen anyway.
That's not your representative. You did not vote, you did not agree to things he wants to impose.

What you're saying would be good if the system was good in its foundations, but it's not.
The system states that there has to be a representative, there have to be lawmakers, even if people don't vote for them.
Even if you managed to get 50% of people in a country to boycott the election, you'd still get someone to make laws you have to obey.

Many countries have laws regarding referendums and imagine that there are laws stating that referendums against taxation don't count. So, let's say you have 10 million people in a country. Even if you get 6 million to sign a petition to remove income tax, it won't matter.

I think that it is theft, especially when you can be punished for not obeying your masters.

[Qiubell5]

I understand the process of making a new regulation to produce a law, this of course requires approval from the people's representatives, in the case of those we elected in yesterday's election. I'm not sure whether these people can vote to agree or not, so the impression is that this tax law is something that was agreed to by one side or another. It is the people who bear the burden where every year they have to pay taxes and report them, of course no one is happy about this.

The government never wants to know how many hours you work in a day and how many days you work in a year. What they ask from you is taxes as long as the amount of assets you earn from your job in a year meets the taxpayer's requirements. Even the smallest, every item you buy today, including cigarettes, electricity bills, WiFi bills, TV package subscriptions and many others, requires you to pay tax. Are you happy with all that?

From everyone's understanding of the rules made by taxation according to this view, by forcing the collection of taxpayers, such as ownership has been determined and its implementation requires action, in general it needs to be done carefully and it seems that if taxes are used to develop the country, this is a very important thing. appropriate for the welfare of the people, and taxes are not theft, but the tax regulations created by the government seem very imposing,
by having to look at the elements of society in that country and that is very important considering that economic equality is not yet optimal and that is burdensome for them.

[pooya87]

Many countries have laws regarding referendums and imagine that there are laws stating that referendums against taxation don't count. So, let's say you have 10 million people in a country. Even if you get 6 million to sign a petition to remove income tax, it won't matter.

Nobody answered the question I asked in first page: what's the alternative or replacement?
And that is why it won't work. People can't just remove stuff, there has to first be an alternative for it. For example we can't just remove PayPal, we first have to create an alternative like Bitcoin and then replace it with that alternative. And the replacement (for PayPal or for income tax gap in the budget) can only be used as a replacement if it is a viable option.

What's the replacement for the budget gap removing income (or other) tax would create in government budget?
Now that raises more and more questions, like why is the government spending this much money, a lot of which is wasted? It's just a rabbit hole that keeps getting deeper and deeper and eventually we figure out that the economy is flawed itself. That needs to be fundamentally changed.

[franky1]

Here's the problem. What if all candidates suck ass and you don't want to vote for any of them, but one will eventually be chosen anyway.
That's not your representative. You did not vote, you did not agree to things he wants to impose.

What you're saying would be good if the system was good in its foundations, but it's not.
The system states that there has to be a representative, there have to be lawmakers, even if people don't vote for them.
Even if you managed to get 50% of people in a country to boycott the election, you'd still get someone to make laws you have to obey.

Many countries have laws regarding referendums and imagine that there are laws stating that referendums against taxation don't count. So, let's say you have 10 million people in a country. Even if you get 6 million to sign a petition to remove income tax, it won't matter.

I think that it is theft, especially when you can be punished for not obeying your masters.

if you were to remove tax completely, all public services would stop. meaning no cops, no fire department, no state education, no department for vehicle registration, no birth/death/marriage registration department, no driving licence/passport department, no libraries, etc etc
majority of people dont want basic public services to stop.. so people, even if less than norm average amounts would still vote.

if there was a lack of majority vote, then all that happens is re-elections where candidates then pledge better plans that can win them votes

taxes can be reformed. every election has leaders pledging to adjust/lower/change taxes. aswell as pledge plans for how those taxes are spent, its just people need to vote for the pledges that benefit them

to effectuate change in the past, it has been done via petitions. media tries to say its protests but thats just a visual display misdirection that doesnt change things.. where by the petitions does effectuate change.
for instance many people think the historic change of "votes for women" a century+ ago was due to protests on the streets, but actual change occurred behind the scenes due to the petitions submitted during the same time

for instance many people think the historic change of "tea tax" a century+ ago was due to protests on the boston harbour, but actual change occurred behind the scenes due to the petitions submitted during the same time

if people did petition their representatives that the people wont vote for them unless they pledge to change X,y,z. representatives would then pledge to change x,y,z simply to win votes vs their opposing candidate competitor.
the issue is people dont really know that this is the most effective process, as they are instead told via media that other non effective ways are the thing people should do. which results in things not changing effectively

[kingvirtus09]

There is probably no country in the world that does not collect taxes from its subjects and from all the establishments that are under government regulation. Because if there is no tax to be collected by a government, there will not be any development  in their country.

It is fine for us to take tax as long as it will not be a burden or pain to consumers or law-abiding citizens, and we can also see that the taxes that the government takes from the people under their jurisdiction are being used correctly.

[Maus0728]

If you're from my country, I'd side with the taxation is theft side because I only see nothing but corruption in the government and the taxes that's supposed to help the public doesn't get the help that they needed and so we end up with this charade of politicians fighting over the position because they don't like the idea of leaving the seat of power because the money and influence is so strong but I digress, I believe that taxation is theft, how come the government has a cut on the money that I've worked hard to earn and when I don't pay it, I'm the one in the wrong? I get that the tax will fund the public projects but with the corruption, I'd rather keep it to myself and save myself and my family first.

[dezoel]

i'm not saying it's theft, but at some points it's like theft. for example, i need to pay taxes for housing, which i don't even feel the benefit of since i don't qualify for it. and then, i need to pay taxes on income from cryptocurrency (it's automatically deducted when converting to local currency) which the government doesn't give me any protection if the platform goes bankrupt. how is this not theft?

others may say that the representatives in the legislative body have the right to issue such regulations since the people elected them, but from the beginning of my birth until now i have never voted for those legislators, so i don't feel that they "represent me" and issue these stupid tax regulations.

but don't get me wrong, i don't mind paying taxes as long as it has benefits for me directly, but when i don't receive any benefits from it and instead i am forced to pay just because a regulation states it, i think it's theft.

If we are not qualify for it, then it's better for us to get excluded from it because it's only an added expense to us in the form of paying a tax. When it comes to cryptocurrency taxes, I'm not against with it because we are benefiting with it and for it to be automatically deducted is actually much better because it is hassle free than manually remitting it, unless only if you are planning of not paying it.

Well, that was already wrong and we can get into jail with that. Does the platform that you use already got bankrupt before, for you to say that governments don't give a protection? But most of the times, it is the obligation of the platform that we are using.

[DeathAngel]

Some people think taxation is necessary for the functioning of a society & the provision of public services. They see it as a fair way to distribute the costs of these services among the population. Others think taxation infringes upon individual property rights & is a form of theft. I suppose the answer to this question depends on your beliefs about the role of government & the balance between individual rights & collective responsibilities.

[BlackHatCoiner]

It's just a rabbit hole that keeps getting deeper and deeper and eventually we figure out that the economy is flawed itself. That needs to be fundamentally changed.

Well, yes, but as you correctly mention, if there is no viable replacement proposed, then nothing will change. And in practice, just the idea of replacing the current system is a crazy one itself by the people in power.

The thing I like about Bitcoin is that it has fixed money. It is no longer required to entrust the elite with issuing and managing money responsibly. It's a solution that works in practice since the first day. And the best part: it required no reorganization of society as we know it. I wish there was a similar solution (decentralized, game-theory reliant mechanism), but for beyond money.

[Reincarnated Sat]

It's just a rabbit hole that keeps getting deeper and deeper and eventually we figure out that the economy is flawed itself. That needs to be fundamentally changed.

Well, yes, but as you correctly mention, if there is no viable replacement proposed, then nothing will change. And in practice, just the idea of replacing the current system is a crazy one itself by the people in power.

The thing I like about Bitcoin is that it has fixed money. It is no longer required to entrust the elite with issuing and managing money responsibly. It's a solution that works in practice since the first day. And the best part: it required no reorganization of society as we know it. I wish there was a similar solution (decentralized, game-theory reliant mechanism), but for beyond money.

Yeah before there can be an effective change in the system then there must be a viable replacement proposal, with the proposal will may have a change but without it I don't think it will be possible, however to honest what you said is correct "replacing current system is a crazy one itself by the people in power". But I still believe a step should be taken.

Yeah the fixed money is also one reason I really love Bitcoin and that's why I have chosen to invest in it, and that's also one reasons why Bitcoin is so valuable in the world, no government can manipulate it or increase or decrease the number of Bitcoin to it favour.
Bitcoin stand's without any interference and that why is always considered the best investment ever, no war or political war can affect us hold Bitcoin like the way it will affect those that has there savings in Banks.

[Findingnemo]

If you're from my country, I'd side with the taxation is theft side because I only see nothing but corruption in the government and the taxes that's supposed to help the public doesn't get the help that they needed and so we end up with this charade of politicians fighting over the position because they don't like the idea of leaving the seat of power because the money and influence is so strong but I digress, I believe that taxation is theft, how come the government has a cut on the money that I've worked hard to earn and when I don't pay it, I'm the one in the wrong? I get that the tax will fund the public projects but with the corruption, I'd rather keep it to myself and save myself and my family first.

Even if you don't want to pay your taxes still there is no way to follow it because indirect taxes are imposed on almost everything we spend so if we have to access a product or service then you have to pay the necessary tax. Although we consider it theft we need collective effort from the leaders as well as the citizens to keep the revenue generation on par without hurting the people for that they need to find the right ways and make policies according to that and it will take long time to change even if we start making the changes as of today.

[darkangel11]

if you were to remove tax completely, all public services would stop. meaning no cops, no fire department, no state education, no department for vehicle registration, no birth/death/marriage registration department, no driving licence/passport department, no libraries, etc etc
majority of people dont want basic public services to stop.. so people, even if less than norm average amounts would still vote.

That's an interesting point.
So, I'm sure you know there's state and federal tax.
It's state taxation that pays for all these services. What if you did not have to pay federal at all and allowed states to deal with everything.
IMO both the state and the people would be happy. What you'd cut is the war industrial complex that you (arguably) don't even need.
As I see it, that could be the alternative.