Is taxation theft?

[Casdinyard]

Morals talking time.

Surely a matter of topic that has concerned many philosophers and intellectuals. I imagine most of (genuine) Bitcoiners be like "back-to-the-landers", libertarians, with desire to be self-sufficient. However, objectively speaking, taxation is theft. It's taking someone's property without their consent, and it is compulsory. It very much fits the definition of theft, even though you can find it slightly altered in other sources, like the Cambridge dictionary ("the crime of illegally taking something that belongs to someone else")

(That's right dear reader, that was a clickbait!)

The question is rather: Is taxation justifiable theft? A necessary evil? Libertarians tend to argue that it's wrong regardless the intentions. Taking someone's property without their permission is unethical, no matter how good you want to do with it. Others, who support social contract theory, argue that it's necessary and should be seen as "voluntary obligation".

There is no right or wrong answer (un)fortunately. Feel free to speak out loud.


My stance on this is that both "groups" bring some compelling arguments on the table, in favor of their ideology. I don't know. I think there's a place where we draw the line. For example, nowadays, I think we've crossed that line (towards more government of course). I don't think we need that much government into the markets.

I also feel really stupid when I see politicians talking about taxing gains from cryptocurrencies, with phrases like "unhosted wallets", or by attacking privacy services. They talk as if privacy invasion is a requirement, or "obligation" as per the social contract theory. I think this really crosses the line.

Here's the thing. The concept of a tariff on everything should've worked on paper, IF we're living in an ideal world where the sole purpose and goal of legislator and tax collecting agencies is to collect such taxes to redistribute to the people of the country through projects, development, and other amazing stuff. Needless to say what we got is the less ideal version of this world and instead of politicians looking to serve us, we got politicians looking to serve THEMSELVES and their pockets instead.

Now it still would've worked well if even if these politicians took some of the money for their own illegally, we're able to cast votes on projects/developments we would like to see, and not just the government doing shit on its own without even telling us what they are doing with the money, nor letting us in on their plans, and the moment you try to peer into the keyhole you're jailed, you think that is a sign of a government we can trust putting our taxes on? NOPE.

So while taxes are good in concept, they haven't worked so well in practice that honestly, to me it's just way better if we abolish it completely.

[ultrloa]

Well for me depends on the usage.

If taxation is ways to feed those corrupt officials then this is a method for those thief to stole money from people.

But different story goes if the money gotten from tax is used for countries development and other beneficial to people then provably it serves something good to people in return. A country need fundings to have good economy and they can only get that from implementing tax to any institutions or people who's capable to pay this.

Its somehow painful to our pocket for some amount to be taken out on our salary but this is part of our obligation as citizen since our country need that. The one look forward for it is it should be used for proper things which help our country to develop more or have some benefits for people to use.

[EarnOnVictor]

Morals talking time.

However, objectively speaking, taxation is theft. It's taking someone's property without their consent, and it is compulsory. It very much fits the definition of theft, even though you can find it slightly altered in other sources, like the Cambridge dictionary ("the crime of illegally taking something that belongs to someone else")

Lol...I can't stop laughing here cause I don't know which angle you are bringing this from and what it tends to justify. You have to know that a country's affair is a serious affair, it's not what social reasoning (moral is not the right word as used) can take care of.

"Tax is never a theft and never will it be regardless of how you may interpret it." I can only advise you to accept the tax of your country in good faith or protest so that the government may reduce it if it is too much. Anything that is in the constitution and the law of the land is binding and must be obliged to as Rights. Therefore, tax is the Right of the government, citizens have theirs too.

This is what is helping the country, otherwise, everyone will do as they like and there will not be a country fitting to live in because there will be broad daylight theft and anarchy since there is no means for the government to empower and operate security architectures in the country. That is one reason among countless reasons. Or do you want the government to work for the people while they pay nothing? People will not even be efficient about this if it is voluntary, so what will be the general state of the country?

I summarily conclude by saying that tax is good but must be justifiably used. There is no way the government will tax anyone if there are no purposes for it. Also, the government can't tax you if there is no law backing it. By virtue, I don't see this as "theft" in all ramifications but a "compulsion." Where there is a law, there must be obedience to it.

[Uhochi]

oh good old blackhat misinforming as usual

when citizens vote they choose who manages the country whom determines how laws and policy is made
people AGREE and consent to be managed which comes with costs, people agree that some situations of life are not assured and so they agree that some representatives of the masses can organise such funds to the distribute to the services/functions that are needed which individuals cant do for themselves.

so tax is not theft when its part of the law that had been agreed to by the representatives the majority consented to

sometimes changes in tax laws or expenditure policy can negative affect the masses. but thats where people petition their government for change that benefits the masses, or vote a new governing body into power who pledge to change laws for the benefit of the masses

i personally think that alot of the tax which treasuries manage get wasted and we should petition governments to economise and organise funds better, but that does not mean taxation is illegal when there are many many many laws actually legalised it over centuries. so its not theft, just irresponsibly managed/spent

From the definition, a tax is a legal fee paid to the government by firms and individuals to fund activities for public goods, like the construction of roads. We are made to believe it's for our good, which may be true, although economic hardship is on the rise but we move regardless.

So, tax may be debated as theft when hard-working citizens have to pay ridiculous amounts for things that don't make sense, or when the tax fee is increased within a short period. However, since it's a legal fixed fee, one shouldn't bother too much about it being theft or not, but rather focus on making enough money not to notice the tax rate.

[348Judah]

Tax is not a theft, the intention for the collection of tax is solely on on giving back to the society on terms of development and infrastructures, if the government are indeed being honest in the way of development to the community and are ready to work and give all it demands for them to help the people, every citizen will be happy and interested in paying thwur tax since they are conscious of what the government are capable of doing in return for them.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Lol...I can't stop laughing here cause I don't know which angle you are bringing this from and what it tends to justify.

I'm not trying to approach this from any particular angle. I'm simply stating the facts. Taking someone's property without their consent constitutes theft. We can debate whether this is essential for a nation to function effectively, but it doesn't change the fundamental definition of the act.

"Tax is never a theft and never will it be regardless of how you may interpret it."

Alright, then. I don't need to answer to anything below. We disagree on a very fundamental level. You clearly have another definition for the word "theft".

[boty]

Tax is not a theft, the intention for the collection of tax is solely on on giving back to the society on terms of development and infrastructures, if the government are indeed being honest in the way of development to the community and are ready to work and give all it demands for them to help the people, every citizen will be happy and interested in paying thwur tax since they are conscious of what the government are capable of doing in return for them.

Tax collection is of course very important to be able to run a government system for the benefit of everyone and we all know very well that the development carried out by the government certainly comes from the source of taxes paid by each community and the government uses these funds for the benefit of everyone and management. Good tax funds will of course be able to make society prosperous, but if the government system is dishonest in managing taxes, of course this will be very detrimental to the state and also the people who have paid taxes and if this continues, of course there will be damage everywhere. which is due to government errors in managing tax funds that have been paid by the community.

[cryptosize]

This is gonna end well...

Tax the rich, so that useless eaters can keep doing their own thing.

[philipma1957]

and the place won't work that way.

Care to explain why?

well your very own ⅓ of an acre of fresh water would require your care. since its yours.

this means you need a system to clean it and recirculate it so that it is potable

your four acres of land would need to grow all your food

and your 12 acres of ocean would be your source of fish to eat.

if you are sectioned off to your share many would die.  or form partnerships with adjacent  holders of property.

One of the reasons the place has yet to fall apart is division of labor and commingling of assets.

Am I anti communist  no but it only works with other parts of the world not being communist up to this date I am correct.

but capitalism existed long before communism was created and at times it thrived.

Since communism cant claim that yet or maybe never as maybe the world collapse happens if communism becomes the only method. or the world collapses before communism takes over.

best case is the world does not collapse. if tax free world wide communism does the trick works for me.

I cant see libertarians working world wide with no other system never has at least not in the recorded history of the world

[White pawn]

Taxation is not a theft, because this is a kind of agreement to be paid between citizens and government,where citizens are to pay tax and obey the rules and regulations of the country so government can also support the citizens and protect them.
Taxation has always been a legal and legitimate way for government to collect public funds and revenue from citizens.
Theft is an illegal act or Crime for stealing and fraud,so paying of tax can never be a theft act.because there'isnt a legalized theft.

[Hispo]

I think honestly taxation is not theft, I believe any functioning country needs to get their money out somewhere and part of the revenue needs to come from a relatively important percentage of the work of the people.
I don't have problems with taxes, as long as they are reasonable and are used to keep important things functioning, like hospitals and schools, not for the corrupt people of the government to steal all of it.
In my country, for example, the system of taxation is very primitive thus vital infrastruture is left to be lost to the time and the lack of funding.

If the state and the people can find an equilibrium in which nobody feels robbed, then it is fine.

[STT]

Taxation of people is theft because its never just once that people are taxed.   Tax on the companies which supply people is far fairer overall and allows proper management and free flow in the economy.

If people are taxed on their income they also become taxed while spending it too, almost no matter whatever a person does they will have to pay additional taxes after having already paid while earning the money.   This easily justifies the idea to me that tax is a form of theft from people to fund government over spending and the tyranny of the political system and its burden on a nation.

  Politics should be the role of a caretaker, instead its the owner, the chief, the general and dictator of all that people do;   too much is forgiven for the idea of democracy adjusting all political excess.   We often just swap around another party as bad as the prior and rarely do they ever spend less, only talking more.

[Darker45]

As much as I hate to pay taxes, I'd say taxation is justifiable. I hate my government but I am in favor of having a government. Without government, any country would turn chaotic, or perhaps more chaotic. In which case, taxation is a necessary evil because it is the very lifeblood of the government.

However, while taxation is necessary, it should be implemented fairly. Those who have much should be taxed more. Those who have less should be taxed less. The problem is that those who are making so much money are avoiding paying taxes, legally at that, while those who have less have no choice but to pay religiously. Also, taxes shouldn't be stolen by the very leaders mandated to protect the welfare of the people.

The problem is probably not taxation per se but how it is implemented and used. There are countries whose ordinary workers are paying as high as 40% income tax but they're not complaining because in return they get free and excellent healthcare, education, child care, and other services.

[bbarisme]

It's not like that buddy, taxation done by the government is not theft. Tax laws are established to ensure the continuity of public services and national development. Through paying taxes, every citizen contributes to creating social justice and equality in development. It's not theft, but rather a citizen's duty to support government activities for the common welfare.

[Jody.Drummer]

I think taxes are not money theft, because of course the state orders people to pay taxes for themselves, but sometimes there are governments who are dishonest about this, they only use people's money for themselves because of selfishness and greed. People are required to pay taxes, of course there are certain purposes, such as for their own comfort, such as paying vehicle tax. We know that the majority of people currently have private vehicles and they have to pay vehicle tax because they use road access built by the government.

Taxes are not required only for certain groups. All people have to pay taxes, whether they are rich or poor. It's just that poor people may have difficulty paying taxes because of their unstable financial situation, whereas for those who are rich paying taxes can of course be done easily and it should be easy for rich people to pay taxes because there are rich people who don't want to pay taxes but don't know. What kind of clear reason is because they themselves have thoughts like that so there must be a reason.

[cryptosize]

and the place won't work that way.

Care to explain why?

well your very own ⅓ of an acre of fresh water would require your care. since its yours.

this means you need a system to clean it and recirculate it so that it is potable

your four acres of land would need to grow all your food

and your 12 acres of ocean would be your source of fish to eat.

if you are sectioned off to your share many would die.  or form partnerships with adjacent  holders of property.

One of the reasons the place has yet to fall apart is division of labor and commingling of assets.

Am I anti communist  no but it only works with other parts of the world not being communist up to this date I am correct.

but capitalism existed long before communism was created and at times it thrived.

Since communism cant claim that yet or maybe never as maybe the world collapse happens if communism becomes the only method. or the world collapses before communism takes over.

best case is the world does not collapse. if tax free world wide communism does the trick works for me.

I cant see libertarians working world wide with no other system never has at least not in the recorded history of the world

So you're basically saying that a big population requires more central planning and less freedom to prevent total chaos. Is that correct?

I believe they will try to bring communism back (with a fancier name), only this time around AI will replace corrupt governments.

Will AI be 100% corruption free? I strongly doubt it, unless it's 100% open-source (like Bitcoin, Linux etc.) to examine it.

[philipma1957]

and the place won't work that way.

Care to explain why?

well your very own ⅓ of an acre of fresh water would require your care. since its yours.

this means you need a system to clean it and recirculate it so that it is potable

your four acres of land would need to grow all your food

and your 12 acres of ocean would be your source of fish to eat.

if you are sectioned off to your share many would die.  or form partnerships with adjacent  holders of property.

One of the reasons the place has yet to fall apart is division of labor and commingling of assets.

Am I anti communist  no but it only works with other parts of the world not being communist up to this date I am correct.

but capitalism existed long before communism was created and at times it thrived.

Since communism cant claim that yet or maybe never as maybe the world collapse happens if communism becomes the only method. or the world collapses before communism takes over.

best case is the world does not collapse. if tax free world wide communism does the trick works for me.

I cant see libertarians working world wide with no other system never has at least not in the recorded history of the world

So you're basically saying that a big population requires more central planning and less freedom to prevent total chaos. Is that correct?

I believe they will try to bring communism back (with a fancier name), only this time around AI will replace corrupt governments.

Will AI be 100% corruption free? I strongly doubt it, unless it's 100% open-source (like Bitcoin, Linux etc.) to examine it.

that is pretty close to what I am trying to say.

Think if we had a sixteen parallel planet earths  each with full resources and only 0.5 billion on each one the chance to test a fully ai world a fully communist world etc would be easy to do. here we just muddle along

[Alone055]

I think taxes are not money theft, because of course the state orders people to pay taxes for themselves, but sometimes there are governments who are dishonest about this, they only use people's money for themselves because of selfishness and greed. People are required to pay taxes, of course there are certain purposes, such as for their own comfort, such as paying vehicle tax. We know that the majority of people currently have private vehicles and they have to pay vehicle tax because they use road access built by the government.

Taxes are not required only for certain groups. All people have to pay taxes, whether they are rich or poor. It's just that poor people may have difficulty paying taxes because of their unstable financial situation, whereas for those who are rich paying taxes can of course be done easily and it should be easy for rich people to pay taxes because there are rich people who don't want to pay taxes but don't know. What kind of clear reason is because they themselves have thoughts like that so there must be a reason.

Anyone who is earning an income and if their income is above a certain range, they are supposed to pay taxes. I don't think that anyone would be able to do that because the amount of tax one would need to pay would depend on how much they are earning, for example, if person A earns $1,000 a month. Person B earns $10,000 a month, now if income tax is 10%, person A will need to pay $100 in taxes whereas person B will need to pay $1,000. So essentially, they pay an equal percentage of their earnings but only the amount can differ.

Taxes are used for the betterment of a country only if those who are in control of the country are loyal to their people and honest with their duties, otherwise, as you said, the officials will use the tax money for personal purposes and there won't be further developments for the country and its people, it's happening in a lot of countries, it's very unfortunate but there is nothing can be done.

[Huppercase]

From the definition, a tax is a legal fee paid to the government by firms and individuals to fund activities for public goods, like the construction of roads. We are made to believe it's for our good, which may be true, although economic hardship is on the rise but we move regardless.

So, tax may be debated as theft when hard-working citizens have to pay ridiculous amounts for things that don't make sense, or when the tax fee is increased within a short period. However, since it's a legal fixed fee, one shouldn't bother too much about it being theft or not, but rather focus on making enough money not to notice the tax rate.

By context of economics, there wouldn't be development if there is not a proper tax system, a reasonable amount that is affordable for everyone to pay without feeling the burden individually or collectively, this tax are been collected through various means and assembled together to the federal level and they are share accordingly back to the federal levels and local levels in a way that it's favours all the arms of the government for developments but what it's been written isn't what is been done because the system is rig.

The public offices are one of the biggest enemy of tax system, the embezzlement and stealing of public tax is shame on our economy, they cut and reduce allocations the moments it's been sent from the federal level, they take their cut and transfer half of it to the state while the state take almost everything and send the rest to the locals. This is hey development in federal is highly developed than state while state are developed than local levels.

In a situation where the federal government do distribution directly to all other arms of government, one corrupt public officer steal and it and his friends. This is why tax system always looks like scam no matter how you put it.

[erep]

I think honestly taxation is not theft, I believe any functioning country needs to get their money out somewhere and part of the revenue needs to come from a relatively important percentage of the work of the people.
I don't have problems with taxes, as long as they are reasonable and are used to keep important things functioning, like hospitals and schools, not for the corrupt people of the government to steal all of it.
In my country, for example, the system of taxation is very primitive thus vital infrastruture is left to be lost to the time and the lack of funding.

If the state and the people can find an equilibrium in which nobody feels robbed, then it is fine.

I agree with your argument, even though the use of taxes is not optimal and not transparent, taxation is not theft because all the rules have been regulated in valid laws, but tax management is not in accordance with what is expected to build infrastructure and services to the community, many tax officials are proven to have committed corruption and several officials using state funds for personal needs. So the government should emphasize the death penalty to imprison tax corruptors because they have enslaved people to work and cut people's income to pay taxes.