🔥 GingerWallet.io - Desktop, Non-custodial, Open source | #CoinJoin

[DaveF]

...Wasabi was not blocking US downloads until the FBI announcement. For the last two years it was only talk about a blacklisting mechanism getting implemented into the default coordinator (which ultimately never happened) until they took down their coordinator under external pressure....

I thought they did have the blacklisting in the coordinator. Or was is just there and checking but not doing anything?

Either way as for your meme I don't think that blocking is fine. And I don't think a lot of people here think blocking is fine.

But, what seems to be happening is more people throwing their hands up and saying fine, you don't care, they don't care, I do care but I am not going to fight over it. You do you and I'll do me and if you want to use those services fine. Could be we are all getting old and grumpy or just burnt from fighting the battles that a lot of people don't care about and don't want to win.

BTC / crypto in general:

As a BTC user who has to at times use regulated exchanges I have never had an issue with any coins I have sent to them. Could be luck, or it could be just using my head about who I accept money from. IRL I don't deal with or take cash from people who I see as sketchy. I also don't deal with them online. Yes it's subjective and I am probably frequently wrong, but it's worked for me so far. If / when it stops working for me doing things then it will be time to figure something else out.

-Dave

[JollyGood]

Not I am defending their actions but maybe those blog entries could simply be down to the fact that they were under heavy pressure from their own legal team which advised them to those steps. If not, maybe it was as a result of their own concerns that they could be facing future legal woes and decided to take drastic action as a precaution after Samourai Wallet was closed down and their founders arrested being accused of $1.7 billion money laundering.

If I remember correctly, not that long ago zkSNACKs was either seeking investment or were selling some or all of their company and as a result the owners were going to receive a financial windfall. All that seems to have ended now but it make people ask why GingerWallet would start up using the very same tools (via the fork) that WasabiWallet discontinued using in their attempt to protect themselves from any potential legal action.

--snip--
I cannot recall if WasabiWallet was restricting downloads to a specific country (USA) or whether their previous versions that did allow a default co-ordinator could even be modified to use n alternative one therefore cannot compare the two points you raised about GingerWallet.
--snip--

About that, their blog state they block U.S. resident and citizen from download and access any of their service[1]. Although 5 days later, they also write blog which state they discontinue their CoinJoin coordinator service[2].

[Husna QA]

Previously, I tried the Ginger wallet, and it turns out that some wallets that I had created in the Wasabi wallet were automatically detected in the Ginger wallet.
It is understandable because the Ginger wallet is a fork of Wasabi. So, the hierarchy of folders and wallets can be used with each other.

This is a plus point for those that were using WasabiWallet but stopped because their default co-ordinator was removed. They could use GingerWallet and retain previous WasabiWallet folders or keep using WasabiWallet but modify the GingerWallet api link. Either way there is a benefit for those that want to keep using these wallets.

Therefore, both wallets should not be run at the same time.

In addition, previously, when I tried the Wasabi wallet and activated the Bitcoin Knots option, the setting automatically added configuration to the bitcoin.conf file in the Bitcoin Core file directory. The disablewallet setting becomes active (= 1), so the wallet is not displayed when Bitcoin Core is run. These settings must be changed manually to display the wallet on Bitcoin Core.

[JollyGood]

Like most others posting here, I only heard about them reading this thread. If anybody wanted to use this wallet to test functions or coinjoins, they probably would have uninstalled WasabiWallet entirely (or never used it in the past) and would not know about issues when running simultaneously.

I am probably correct when I say the number of WasabiWallet users was most probably on the decline since controversy surrounding blockchain analysis became part of the conversation and it fell must have fallen significantly after they removed their default co-ordinator therefore not many people would have downloaded GingerWallet to use at the same time.

This is a plus point for those that were using WasabiWallet but stopped because their default co-ordinator was removed. They could use GingerWallet and retain previous WasabiWallet folders or keep using WasabiWallet but modify the GingerWallet api link. Either way there is a benefit for those that want to keep using these wallets.

Therefore, both wallets should not be run at the same time.

In addition, previously, when I tried the Wasabi wallet and activated the Bitcoin Knots option, the setting automatically added configuration to the bitcoin.conf file in the Bitcoin Core file directory. The disablewallet setting becomes active (= 1), so the wallet is not displayed when Bitcoin Core is run. These settings must be changed manually to display the wallet on Bitcoin Core.

[NotATether]

...Wasabi was not blocking US downloads until the FBI announcement. For the last two years it was only talk about a blacklisting mechanism getting implemented into the default coordinator (which ultimately never happened) until they took down their coordinator under external pressure....

I thought they did have the blacklisting in the coordinator. Or was is just there and checking but not doing anything?

No. It was on their TODO list but they never came around to actually implementing it, according to the Wasabi wallet documentation somewhere.

[PrivacyG]

Anyhow, this meme I generated 5 minutes ago gives people a good look at the state of this place nowadays:

The entire situation got my mind messed up too if I am being honest.

Realistically, there will probably be no way soon enough to hold your own Privacy and particularly to distribute a way for others to hold their own Privacy with out having repercussions from agencies such as FBI, CIA or other Authorities.  This is clear as day and the more options we will have, the harsher I suppose they will become.  And as much as I would love to offer others a way to have Privacy, I am not convinced I would be willing to risk my Freedom or the Safety and Security of my family for it.

So as much as I really wish we could go back and live the days when Know Your Customer was not even a thing around Bitcoin, I know reality speaks otherwise and I do get why some of them choose to obey rather than protest.  No body guarantees you can change the world by protesting.  If anything, you may end up changing only your life for the worst while the rest of the people move on.

Know Your Customer is bad.  Really, really bad and progressively damaging to our Privacy.  Privacy is more important in my opinion than EVER before in the world we live in.  Chain Analysis works in conjunction with Know Your Customer to progressively damage what I would always fight for.  Privacy.  But having Privacy is becoming an evident risk to every body.

For now, I know there are still ways to avoid a Ginger Wallet Black list and I am happy there is even THIS option of avoidance.  I would continue arguing how this Chain Analysis they are using is as useless as the one Wasabi wanted to implement and how the only thing it helps with is promoting the lack of Privacy and Freedom, but I already know the arguments would end up being a waste of time.  We know Chain Analysis is not accurate.  Even an accuracy of 99.9 percent is still extremely low, particularly considering many of us do multiple Coin Joins and the 'low chance of being a false positive' becomes an actually much higher chance.  This is to me an irrevocable answer.  Chain Analysis is useless and only a burden to us Bitcoin users.

The United States ban is just as useless and can still be avoided through work arounds.  What made me most furious is watching so called Privacy advocates coming with arguments pro Censorship and trying to convince every body who is also a Privacy advocate that Censorship is good.  I will never be pro Censorship but I understand why some Services resort to it.  What I will never accept is what I just said.  Trying to manipulate every body else into believing B S.

[hugeblack]

Therefore, both wallets should not be run at the same time.

This is not supposed to happen because in the end, GingerWallet is a Wasabi fork. You can now run the Ginger coordinator on the Wasabi wallet or run any other coordinator, while downloading GingerWallet means that you will use one coordinator.
In the future, the development of both wallets will be independent, and then the features of downloading GingerWallet will be limited.

--

Privacy can be at the protocol level. We have BitcoinCash CashFusion (the only problem will be high transaction fees) or a complete privacy update, as happened with litecoin MimbleWimble.

[ABCbits]

Therefore, both wallets should not be run at the same time.

This is not supposed to happen because in the end, GingerWallet is a Wasabi fork. You can now run the Ginger coordinator on the Wasabi wallet or run any other coordinator, while downloading GingerWallet means that you will use one coordinator.
In the future, the development of both wallets will be independent, and then the features of downloading GingerWallet will be limited.

I just tried installing Ginger Wallet after installing Wasabi Wallet on Debian VM, where it seems what @Husna QA is true.

1. Ginger simply overwrite Wasabi installation.

Code:

$ sudo dpkg -i Ginger-2.0.9.deb 
[sudo] password for user: 
(Reading database ... 193229 files and directories currently installed.)
Preparing to unpack Ginger-2.0.9.deb ...
Unpacking wassabee (2.0.9) over (2.0.8) ...
Setting up wassabee (2.0.9) ...
{"success": true}
Processing triggers for mailcap (3.70+nmu1) ...
Processing triggers for desktop-file-utils (0.26-1) ...
Processing triggers for hicolor-icon-theme (0.17-2) ...

2. After i open Ginger app, it detect wallet file i created using Wasabi app. I don't see any newly created directory (such as .gingerwallet) on my home directory either.

--

Privacy can be at the protocol level. We have BitcoinCash CashFusion (the only problem will be high transaction fees) or a complete privacy update, as happened with litecoin MimbleWimble.

That's true, although who knows if majority of Bitcoin owner would agree of adding such privacy feature knowing LTC got delisted by some exchange after doing that.

[Wind_FURY]

I literally just said that Wasabi Wallet needs to be forked and be more like how Linux has different "flavors", and here's one that arrived as soon as the community needed it.

👍

It's obvious that like many open source projects themselves, to secure their continued development and secure its future, the code should be forked and be made redundant with a wider group of developers working on them.

[BlackHatCoiner]

2. After i open Ginger app, it detect wallet file i created using Wasabi app. I don't see any newly created directory (such as .gingerwallet) on my home directory either.

Ginger is a fork of Wasabi, that's written in their main page:

Ginger Wallet forked from Wasabi Wallet. A new coordinator with an active coinjoin service has been established.

Still, not reasonable not to create another data dir, so that Wasabi and Ginger can coexist in the same computer. It's safe to say that Ginger is like a Wasabi coordinator with some extra modifications in the client. You can use their coordinator from Wasabi by pointing to "https://api.gingerwallet.io/", although they recommend to use their client for long-term reliability:

We strongly recommend using the Ginger Wallet client for long-term reliability!

[hugeblack]

I just tried installing Ginger Wallet after installing Wasabi Wallet on Debian VM, where it seems what @Husna QA is true.

1. Ginger simply overwrite Wasabi installation.

For this reason, I called Ginger Wallet as a copy-paste rather than a fork. The developer’s response was that they are focusing on marketing and development will come later.
so in the coming versions you can run Ginger and wasabi

ALTT --->https://www.altcoinstalks.com/index.php?topic=321816.msg1570962#msg1570962

years of privacy research and development?? It is zkSNACKs/WalletWasabi fork and some parts of the code were copied and pasted as is.

There was no copy-pasting, it was purely a fork plus minor changes (rebranding, coordinator URI). In the first period, Ginger's team will be focusing on marking to spread the news.
FTR the development of Wasabi Wallet didn't stop, it will be continued as an open source project, so anyone can continue. Their direction indeed changed. Since zkSANCKs coordinator stopped operating, they now want to make Wasabi Wallet to be able to connect to any other coordinator. It turned out that currently, the client (Wasabi) is not fully secure against malicious coordinators so their last release tried to mitigate this issue.

[ABCbits]

2. After i open Ginger app, it detect wallet file i created using Wasabi app. I don't see any newly created directory (such as .gingerwallet) on my home directory either.

Ginger is a fork of Wasabi, that's written in their main page:

Ginger Wallet forked from Wasabi Wallet. A new coordinator with an active coinjoin service has been established.

Still, not reasonable not to create another data dir, so that Wasabi and Ginger can coexist in the same computer. It's safe to say that Ginger is like a Wasabi coordinator with some extra modifications in the client.

I'm aware Ginger is fork of Wasabi before writing that post. Anyway, aside from different data directory, they should put effort not to replacing existing Wasabi installation/binary.

You can use their coordinator from Wasabi by pointing to "https://api.gingerwallet.io/", although they recommend to use their client for long-term reliability:

We strongly recommend using the Ginger Wallet client for long-term reliability!

I wonder if it's just generic disclaimer to encourage people use their client or they plan to make addition/change on CoinJoin feature.

[NotATether]

2. After i open Ginger app, it detect wallet file i created using Wasabi app. I don't see any newly created directory (such as .gingerwallet) on my home directory either.

...

That is just laziness. There is no reason why they couldn't have created their own config directory and then just restore the wallet with the recovery words. They didn't even bother to change the name of the .deb package - it's still wassabee.

I wonder if it's just generic disclaimer to encourage people use their client or they plan to make addition/change on CoinJoin feature.

It's just marketing BS and there's nothing different about their API unless blacklisting is fascinating to you.


I can't believe I'm actually bad-mouthing a wallet right off the bat. Usually wallets only have a few problems, which is understandable, but this product looks like a rushed release with barely any development effort put into it.

[Wind_FURY]

2. After i open Ginger app, it detect wallet file i created using Wasabi app. I don't see any newly created directory (such as .gingerwallet) on my home directory either.

Ginger is a fork of Wasabi, that's written in their main page:

Ginger Wallet forked from Wasabi Wallet. A new coordinator with an active coinjoin service has been established.

Still, not reasonable not to create another data dir, so that Wasabi and Ginger can coexist in the same computer. It's safe to say that Ginger is like a Wasabi coordinator with some extra modifications in the client. You can use their coordinator from Wasabi by pointing to "https://api.gingerwallet.io/", although they recommend to use their client for long-term reliability:

We strongly recommend using the Ginger Wallet client for long-term reliability!

I will sound that I'm nit-picking, although I agree that software/apps that fork from the original should be made easy to coexist with the original in the same computer. But how are their coordinators exactly the same? That they both use the services of some blockchain analytics companies to filter "tainted" outputs?

2. After i open Ginger app, it detect wallet file i created using Wasabi app. I don't see any newly created directory (such as .gingerwallet) on my home directory either.

...

That is just laziness.

I encourage everyone to always give the benefit of the doubt, but if that's actually true, then the laziness of the developers will make the fork worse than the original because fork will inherit the flaws/bugs/exploits of the original and the "lazy developers" of the fork might not fix it without depending on the developers of the original.

[PrivacyG]

I encourage everyone to always give the benefit of the doubt, but if that's actually true, then the laziness of the developers will make the fork worse than the original because fork will inherit the flaws/bugs/exploits of the original and the "lazy developers" of the fork might not fix it without depending on the developers of the original.

Exactly why this was the first question that came up in my mind,

I wonder, is Ginger Wallet going to continue only tweaking future versions of Wasabi or are they going an entirely separate path and looking to build a separate Product?

I thought I would be called out for being paranoid first so I removed part of my Reply.  But I asked that question because if they are NOT following an entirely separate path then they are some what if not entirely dependent on the work of Wasabi.  If today Wasabi releases a new update and it takes another few days for Ginger to work on it and tweak it to their own rebranding, then to me it sounds like the Security of Ginger Wallet is at least a little bit less since Ginger is going to pretty much be in a constant delay of Update releases, putting Users at risk too particularly if a new Wasabi update involves a crucial fix for Privacy or Security issues found.

-----

For this reason, I called Ginger Wallet as a copy-paste rather than a fork.

There was no copy-pasting, it was purely a fork plus minor changes (rebranding, coordinator URI).

It sounds very much like copy pasting to me.  Are 'Forks' not copy pastes?  If I Forked Bitcoin Talk only to rebrand it with my own logo, I am pretty sure it would be a copy of Bitcoin Talk but rebranded to my liking?

The developer’s response was that they are focusing on marketing and development will come later.

This is disappointing.  Why is advertising a copy of what already exists more important than finishing their Product first to show us what they can do?  Putting Marketing first on a Product that speaks 'laziness' out loud seems like the worst way to introduce themselves.

[BlackHatCoiner]

I will sound that I'm not-picking, although I agree that software/apps that fork from the original should be made easy to coexist with the original in the same computer. But how are their coordinators exactly the same? That they both use the services of some blockchain analytics companies to filter "tainted" outputs?

No. When I say they are the same, I mean their software is probably the same. The coordinator software (as you've probably heard many times already   ) is open-source, available for everyone to download and setup, in Github. As per my knowledge, there is no guide from Wasabi that shows step-by-step how to spin off your own coordinator, but I've come across this:

If you want to create your own Wabisabi coordinator, you can do so by using BTCPay Server and Wasabi Wallet. Here's a step-by-step guide:

   1. Set up a BTCPay Server instance by following the installation instructions: https://docs.btcpayserver.org/Deployment/
   2. Install the Wasabi Wallet plugin on your BTCPay Server instance.
   3. Configure the Wasabi Wallet plugin settings, including the coordinator settings, according to your preferences.
   4. Start the Wasabi Wallet coordinator on your BTCPay Server instance.
   5. Share the coordinator URL with others or add it to the Wabisator list to make it discoverable.

For detailed instructions and more information, please refer to the BTCPay Server documentation: https://docs.btcpayserver.org/Wabisabi/

Therefore, by setting up BTCPay Server, you can have your own coordinator, and probably all of these coordinators use the software from the original repository, each with its own configuration. (Like fee policy.)

Putting Marketing first on a Product that speaks 'laziness' out loud seems like the worst way to introduce themselves.

They prioritize marketing, likely because they learned from the mistakes of another company that ruined its entire reputation through a marketing failure. Any such company comes to mind?  

[Pmalek]

There is a possibility they concluded having blockchain analysis will help shield them in the event they were ever charged with any crimes such as money laundering.

That wouldn't make sense. If the authorities consider the act of coinjoining to be illicit because it provides you with a level of privacy they don't want to see, then using such a coinjoin-enabling service wouldn't be allowed (or it would be frowned upon) by default. Blockchain analysis does nothing to stop coinjoining. All it does is it sells the notion of bitcoin taint and dirty coins to those who want to purchase it. The coinjoining still happens with or without blockchain analysis.

[JollyGood]

I agree, I see your point however the fact of the matter is GingerWallet was created by forking WasabiWallet and when they did they decided to use blockchain analysis when they easily could have chosen to exclude it. Furthermore, their terms and conditions clearly state the service is not open to US citizens. The logic of adding these two clauses demonstrate a pre-emotive move. I am curious, if not to do it to demonstrate to US authorities, then why do it?

About the blockchain analysis, with WasabiWallet I was under the impression coinjoining would not go ahead if the coins were analysed and deemed to be suspicious/taint and have the same impression from the GingerWallet fork. Maybe I understood it wrong.

There is a possibility they concluded having blockchain analysis will help shield them in the event they were ever charged with any crimes such as money laundering.

That wouldn't make sense. If the authorities consider the act of coinjoining to be illicit because it provides you with a level of privacy they don't want to see, then using such a coinjoin-enabling service wouldn't be allowed (or it would be frowned upon) by default. Blockchain analysis does nothing to stop coinjoining. All it does is it sells the notion of bitcoin taint and dirty coins to those who want to purchase it. The coinjoining still happens with or without blockchain analysis.

[Pmalek]

I agree, I see your point however the fact of the matter is GingerWallet was created by forking WasabiWallet and when they did they decided to use blockchain analysis when they easily could have chosen to exclude it. Furthermore, their terms and conditions clearly state the service is not open to US citizens. The logic of adding these two clauses demonstrate a pre-emotive move. I am curious, if not to do it to demonstrate to US authorities, then why do it?

To make it seem like they have done everything they can to block US citizens from using the service. But that restriction only prevents US IP addresses from accessing the website and downloading the wallet. They can easily bypass this with VPNs. If, after that, the wallet has a way to monitor and check that it's not being used by US citizens, then what kind of privacy are we talking about? And like I said previously, if we are moving towards a future where privacy-preserving services aren't welcome (and we are), the governments aren't going to make it easier for you just because you have terms meant to block certain people from using the service. Remember, they don't want the service to exist in the first place.

About the blockchain analysis, with WasabiWallet I was under the impression coinjoining would not go ahead if the coins were analysed and deemed to be suspicious/taint and have the same impression from the GingerWallet fork. Maybe I understood it wrong.

That's correct. You didn't misunderstand. If the blockchain analysis partner shows thumbs down, those coins can't be used in coinjoin rounds.

[Wind_FURY]

I encourage everyone to always give the benefit of the doubt, but if that's actually true, then the laziness of the developers will make the fork worse than the original because fork will inherit the flaws/bugs/exploits of the original and the "lazy developers" of the fork might not fix it without depending on the developers of the original.

Exactly why this was the first question that came up in my mind,

I wonder, is Ginger Wallet going to continue only tweaking future versions of Wasabi or are they going an entirely separate path and looking to build a separate Product?

I thought I would be called out for being paranoid first so I removed part of my Reply.  But I asked that question because if they are NOT following an entirely separate path then they are some what if not entirely dependent on the work of Wasabi.  If today Wasabi releases a new update and it takes another few days for Ginger to work on it and tweak it to their own rebranding, then to me it sounds like the Security of Ginger Wallet is at least a little bit less since Ginger is going to pretty much be in a constant delay of Update releases, putting Users at risk too particularly if a new Wasabi update involves a crucial fix for Privacy or Security issues found.

If you use open source, you partly SHOULD be paranoid. You always verify checksums and/or PGP signatures, and do other tedious things. Sometimes you could get very paranoid, you need to install and run it in a VM in another computer.

But for the developers of Ginger Wallet, if they're actually good, they should find flaws/bugs and patch them up, make UI/UX better for users, it's also their responsibility to find exploits and take advantage of them then report what they discovered.