How Bitcoin can 'Scale' in a Lazy & Convenient Tech World?

[dim_mak5]

Hello,

Google is the number 1 visited site in the world. Google is a so called 'Search Engine'. Nowadays people don't use google for searches. Most people use google because they are too lazy to type a full URL website address in the browser address bar. For example if you want to buy something from amazon, most people don't type the URL address of amazon in their browser address bar, instead they type 6 letters amazon in their bookmarked Google tab then click on the amazon google search result to go amazon. I see this lazy behaviour all the time.

Most people be on social media all day, you telling me these people don't know the web site addresses to their fav sites like instagram, facebook, twitter, reddit & such & instead they 'search' for these?

You only search for something that you cannot find or to look up something new to you, everybody knows where, instagram, facebook, twitter, reddit are located and these sites are not new to most people.

The point I am trying to make is for Bitcoin to scale to the world and become the global reserve currency then will the lazy people put in the effort of using it via their bitcoin wallets like wallet addresses, maintaining keys, using & manually maintaining liquid or lighting protocols in their bitcoin wallets to do a btc transaction?

I fear due to 'laziness' Blackrock & Wall street will capitalise on this and use bitcoin derivatives to make it convenient, easy & quick that is no different to current fiat banking that the world will use but it be just Fiat 2.0 while they will have all the real bitcoins and I believe in future bitcoin will scale through this derivative way only where the world will use bitcoin but not transacting on the real btc base layer blockchain but transacting on derivative btc & the governments of the world don't want people transacting on the real btc base layer blockchain and will force shops not to accept transactions on the real base layer btc blockchain but only allow derivative btc transactions only that wall street & governments will control on layer 2s or 3s or who knows The governments, wall street and blackrock might do their own exclusive layer in which they will only approve btc transactions.

Otherwise show how lazy people can transact on the btc base layer chain with cheap fees using private keys that the people control in a quick, easy convenient way like using your visa/mastercard in shops or online? Otherwise lazy people wont adopt bitcoin for everyday use, they will go back to using their quick & easy CBDC's. And if btc base layer fees are high then that will encourage btc derivatives.

[kryptqnick]

I don't know about other people, but I frequently use Google as a search engine, to look for information. If it's a website I know, and I want to order something from there, of course I just type the first couple of letters into the address bar and go straight to the website. But I'm looking for information regularly, perhaps 10 or more times per day. It's things like when does the post office open, how can I get from point A to point B, or just situational things related to life (or just out of curiosity).
As for your point about lazy people, I agree that there should be more mainstream solutions that make Bitcoin as user-friendly as the best mobile banking can be. I think such projects exist, but adoption is still not very high, and you are sacrificing decentralization when you go down this road.

[pooya87]

I fear due to 'laziness' Blackrock & Wall street will capitalise on this and use bitcoin derivatives to make it convenient, easy & quick that is no different to current fiat banking that the world will use but it be just Fiat 2.0

This is my concern as well. People love to use tools they are used to where they have no control (like banks, Paypal, etc.) and if these banksters and others start offering such services, it could end up being popular.
However, the danger I see is the fractional reserve banking creeping in. Where they'd sell more bitcoins than they own! That could even crash the price and eventually destroy bitcoin.

while they will have all the real bitcoins

It is impossible. For starters a lot of bitcoins are not going to give up their bitcoins to a centralized authority. And also the world is so much bigger than just US and its Wall Street scammers and others. They won't really have access to all those people's bitcoins.

I believe in future bitcoin will scale through this derivative way only where the world will use bitcoin but not transacting on the real btc base layer blockchain but transacting on derivative btc

In such a world Bitcoin is already dead. Long live the replacement.

the governments of the world

The plurality of this means it is impossible to happen globally.

[Catenaccio]

This is my concern as well. People love to use tools they are used to where they have no control (like banks, Paypal, etc.) and if these banksters and others start offering such services, it could end up being popular.
However, the danger I see is the fractional reserve banking creeping in. Where they'd sell more bitcoins than they own! That could even crash the price and eventually destroy bitcoin.

Bitcoin is Bitcoin, is itself as it is, sorry this sentence looks funny. Bitcoin is only a mean for we to use but in many different methods. We can use it in good methods that can help us to have control of private keys and fully control our bitcoins. We can, oppositely, use it in a bad way, and spend money to purchase bitcoin but don't actually own bitcoin, because we don't have private key.

Bitcoin is better than bank system is it is an existing tool for us to use in a right way. If we understand Bitcoin technology wrongly now, practice badly, we can learn and change our practice quickly later. It's not like bank system, we want to change, but how to change our practice with bank system.

[AVE5]

I don't know about other people, but I frequently use Google as a search engine, to look for information. If it's a website I know, and I want to order something from there, of course I just type the first couple of letters into the address bar and go straight to the website. But I'm looking for information regularly, perhaps 10 or more times per day. It's things like when does the post office open, how can I get from point A to point B, or just situational things related to life (or just out of curiosity).

Actually the necessity for Google search engine is to help facilitate on ensuring proper contents of a user or serves as quick notation in order to proceed, process and get yourself search or enquiry resolved and satisfied.
There could be a lot going through ones mine that you don't find somethings necessary to be stressed about such as memorizing of the web sites as Op has emphasized.
Let's imagine our private seed phrases, why do we still have to write them down or store them elsewhere if we think search engine are for lazy people? That's just basically to be ensured that what we're doing is right and how to save our time instead of going through the critical and logical stresses.

As for your point about lazy people, I agree that there should be more mainstream solutions that make Bitcoin as user-friendly as the best mobile banking can be. I think such projects exist, but adoption is still not very high, and you are sacrificing decentralization when you go down this road.

It doesn't still feel that everyone wouldn't be lazy in other ways if only bitcoin has become a friendly banking method. Life is just being too broad that we can't afford to grasp all of the trending developments such as crypto currencies to be expected that everyone must adopt and accept.

[BlackHatCoiner]

This whole "how can it scale to the lazy ones" reminds me of this:

- Sell me this pen.
- Do you need a pen?

Does the average Joe need self-custody? Or is it just us who are amazed by the concept of financial sovereignty? 'Cause as far as I can tell, most people don't care at all. We all use banks to pay for goods and services nowadays. So, how are you supposed to sell someone self-custody, which requires responsibility, when they don't feel like needing it?

Layer 1 will never (and should never) become convenient for payments. That's a job for a second layer. And even then, I don't see how we can sell the "burden" of self-custody to someone who just doesn't care.

[mindrust]

This whole "how can it scale to the lazy ones" reminds me of this:

- Sell me this pen.
- Do you need a pen?

Does the average Joe need self-custody? Or is it just us who are amazed by the concept of financial sovereignty? 'Cause as far as I can tell, most people don't care at all. We all use banks to pay for goods and services nowadays. So, how are you supposed to sell someone self-custody, which requires responsibility, when they don't feel like needing it?

Layer 1 will never (and should never) become convenient for payments. That's a job for a second layer. And even then, I don't see how we can sell the "burden" of self-custody to someone who just doesn't care.

That's not how you sell a pen.

- Sell me this pen.
+ Write down your name.
- I don't have a pen.
+ Here it is, give me $5.

 

I see bitcoin already gave up on being a mastercard/visa replacement and that's fine. It is because no crypto can accomplish such task without compromising on decentralization.

I am OK as long as we can make $1000 transactions relatively cheap. (~$5 fee to send $1000 is not that bad)

It is also working great as a store of value asset.

I can't ask more from btc really.

[Aanuoluwatofunmi]

Google is the number 1 visited site in the world. Google is a so called 'Search Engine'. Nowadays people don't use google for searches. Most people use google because they are too lazy to type a full URL website address in the browser address bar.

It does not have to be that they were lazy, but because if you're looking for a website which address is unknown to you, what you can easily do in getting a suggestion or recommendation for your desired destination is by going through the google search engine to enquire for related keywords and you make your way through, how can be be having a web address and still expect google to give me a recommendation instead of copying it and pasting directly to launch on the platform intended for, this is not about people being lazy but instead, they have no idea sometimes and needs direction and will have to make use of google search engine.

[ABCbits]

I fear due to 'laziness' Blackrock & Wall street will capitalise on this and use bitcoin derivatives to make it convenient, easy & quick that is no different to current fiat banking that the world will use but it be just Fiat 2.0

It's valid concern. But so far they have limited success due to few reasons such as you can't send Bitcoin from Coinbase (the custodial ones) to Paypal without creating on-chain Bitcoin TX which takes some time and a bit of fee.

Otherwise show how lazy people can transact on the btc base layer chain with cheap fees using private keys that the people control in a quick, easy convenient way like using your visa/mastercard in shops or online? Otherwise lazy people wont adopt bitcoin for everyday use, they will go back to using their quick & easy CBDC's. And if btc base layer fees are high then that will encourage btc derivatives.

Usually i'd say there are some user-friendly wallet software. But even those aren't enough for people who only care about convenience. And while Sidechain, LN and L2 exists, i wonder how many of such people willing to make few clicks and pay a bit of fee in order to use such network over BTC derivatives.

[Fiatless]

I fear due to 'laziness' Blackrock & Wall street will capitalise on this and use bitcoin derivatives to make it convenient, easy & quick that is no different to current fiat banking that the world will use but it be just Fiat 2.0

This is my concern as well. People love to use tools they are used to where they have no control (like banks, Paypal, etc.) and if these banksters and others start offering such services, it could end up being popular.
However, the danger I see is the fractional reserve banking creeping in. Where they'd sell more bitcoins than they own! That could even crash the price and eventually destroy bitcoin.

Fractional reserve was the same reason some exchanges collapse and it will be disastrous to see it happen to these large institutional investors. These exchanges usually publish doctored proof-of-reserve holdings just to deceive their clients that they are in good shape. Meanwhile, they might be going through potential insolvency. This was the case when it was discovered that Alameda Research's major asset was FTT tokens which was a token by the parent company FTX. This means that the Alameda was not backed by any independent asset but mainly a worthless asset.

[pooya87]

I see bitcoin already gave up on being a mastercard/visa replacement and that's fine.

I don't think Satoshi ever introduced Bitcoin as a "replacement" for anything, but rather an "alternative" to these payment systems that addressed their flaws. So it's unfair to claim that we already gave up replacing them because we never wanted to.

- Sell me this pen.
+ Write down your name.
- I don't have paper.
+ I only sell the pen.
- I'll take my business elsewhere.

[tranthidung]

Hello,

Google is the number 1 visited site in the world. Google is a so called 'Search Engine'. Nowadays people don't use google for searches. Most people use google because they are too lazy to type a full URL website address in the browser address bar.

People used and are using Google for Searching, with keywords or with domain names/ URL links. Whatever they put into Google Search box, and enter, it's searching practice, you can not deny it.

Nowadays, there are alternatives such as other search engines and AI tools like ChatGPT that can search for information and summarize it. It saves people time and can be one of reasons there are people switch from Google to ChatGPT especially months ago, ChatGPT becomes partially open-accessed. Of course, they must know of 'creative, biased and inaccurate' answers from ChatGPT.

[Cryptomultiplier]

This whole "how can it scale to the lazy ones" reminds me of this:

- Sell me this pen.
- Do you need a pen?

Does the average Joe need self-custody? Or is it just us who are amazed by the concept of financial sovereignty? 'Cause as far as I can tell, most people don't care at all. We all use banks to pay for goods and services nowadays. So, how are you supposed to sell someone self-custody, which requires responsibility, when they don't feel like needing it?

Layer 1 will never (and should never) become convenient for payments. That's a job for a second layer. And even then, I don't see how we can sell the "burden" of self-custody to someone who just doesn't care.

That's not how you sell a pen.

- Sell me this pen.
+ Write down your name.
- I don't have a pen.
+ Here it is, give me $5.

 

I see bitcoin already gave up on being a mastercard/visa replacement and that's fine. It is because no crypto can accomplish such task without compromising on decentralization.

I am OK as long as we can make $1000 transactions relatively cheap. (~$5 fee to send $1000 is not that bad)

It is also working great as a store of value asset.

I can't ask more from btc really.

Those who see Bitcoin as 'digital gold' are right for thinking and saying so because even before the spot ETF was launched for bigger pockets, it could naturally serve as a hedge against inflation.
With Bitcoin fulfilling its mandate of getting to 21million, it means many of the networks will get upgraded and what lazy becomes will be to accept the fee rate of ~5$ or use cheaper derivatives on better faster networks.

[quote author=kryptqnick link=topic=5501390.msg64272804#msg64272804 date=1719740261
I don't know about other people, but I frequently use Google as a search engine, to look for information. If it's a website I know, and I want to order something from there, of course I just type the first couple of letters into the address bar and go straight to the website. But I'm looking for information regularly, perhaps 10 or more times per day. It's things like when does the post office open, how can I get from point A to point B, or just situational things related to life (or just out of curiosity).
As for your point about lazy people, I agree that there should be more mainstream solutions that make Bitcoin as user-friendly as the best mobile banking can be. I think such projects exist, but adoption is still not very high, and you are sacrificing decentralization when you go down this road.

You speak my mind on the point where it concerns using Google as a search engine. It's a cool technology really and I believe such exist for our convenience, hence why going further to create chat GPT and AI integrations that make 'lazy', become the favorite way to make good returns faster than as compared to a workaholic who still goes through old traditional methods and arrives at same good results slower than should?

[Forever101]

To some extent , I am of different opinion regarding this issue. Calling it laziness does not really define the transition the world is going through . In a modern world where things are changing fast, we must also think about the agent responsible for the changes. I do not believe this generation is lazy concerning tech, young people seems to find an easy path to achieving their goal without loosing their senses to it. Everyone is not in the tech industry and that does not mean the ones involve in tech are lazy, so such classification does not suit our world. I do really believe that with the current knowledge of cryptocurrency spreading everywhere, it will be difficult to play with people's intelligence as times goes on.

[Apocollapse]

Nope, it doesn't need ETFs version in order for them to use Bitcoin in lazy way, but they've doing this for many many years which is in centralized exchange.

If you ask which wallet they use to a random person or your friends confessing they own Bitcoin, I'm sure most people will answer Binance or local exchange, some of them will answer ledger or trustwallet, and the rare ones will answer electrum or aqua wallet.

People don't care with security, they just only want to safe fees and convenient.

[m2017]

The point I am trying to make is for Bitcoin to scale to the world and become the global reserve currency then will the lazy people put in the effort of using it via their bitcoin wallets like wallet addresses, maintaining keys, using & manually maintaining liquid or lighting protocols in their bitcoin wallets to do a btc transaction?

I foresee that bitcoin will never become the world's reserve currency. This is not beneficial for governments.

But regarding the fact that for most ordinary people using bitcoin with current wallets presents some difficulties, I agree, because the more actions that need to be performed, the less they use it. Bitcoin should be easier to use (considering, without harm to safety).

I fear due to 'laziness' Blackrock & Wall street will capitalise on this and use bitcoin derivatives to make it convenient, easy & quick that is no different to current fiat banking that the world will use but it be just Fiat 2.0

That's exactly what will happen. And the most absurd thing (as it seems to us) is that their services will be in great demand. Blackrock & Wall street will satisfy the demand for laziness.

while they will have all the real bitcoins and I believe in future bitcoin will scale through this derivative way only where the world will use bitcoin but not transacting on the real btc base layer blockchain but transacting on derivative btc & the governments of the world don't want people transacting on the real btc base layer blockchain and will force shops not to accept transactions on the real base layer btc blockchain but only allow derivative btc transactions only that wall street & governments will control on layer 2s or 3s or who knows The governments, wall street and blackrock might do their own exclusive layer in which they will only approve btc transactions.

It sounds fantastic, but it is possible that in the future this could happen and the real bitcoin will be outside the financial system. Wait, isn't that where it is now?

Otherwise show how lazy people can transact on the btc base layer chain with cheap fees using private keys that the people control in a quick, easy convenient way like using your visa/mastercard in shops or online? Otherwise lazy people wont adopt bitcoin for everyday use, they will go back to using their quick & easy CBDC's. And if btc base layer fees are high then that will encourage btc derivatives.

It is not only laziness that will push people to use CBDC (which will be built), but the entire infrastructure of the global financial system. People will be forced to accept it.

[Marvelockg]

To some extent , I am of different opinion regarding this issue. Calling it laziness does not really define the transition the world is going through . In a modern world where things are changing fast, we must also think about the agent responsible for the changes. I do not believe this generation is lazy concerning tech, young people seems to find an easy path to achieving their goal without loosing their senses to it. Everyone is not in the tech industry and that does not mean the ones involve in tech are lazy, so such classification does not suit our world. I do really believe that with the current knowledge of cryptocurrency spreading everywhere, it will be difficult to play with people's intelligence as times goes on.

maybe you're getting what the OP is saying the wrong way. What OP is saying is that people generally prefer systems that are too easy and that they can conveniently shift responsibility to and not being responsible for what happens to thier funds. This is the main reason why they will rather save up in banks and allow the banks to be responsible for most of thier funds security and safety rather than saving in Bitcoin that gives them full control of thier funds safety and protection. It's a word tussle between not wanting to be accountable and and being lazy with it at the same time.

The most practical way that will give Bitcoin users this level of convenience is if thier is a sort of simple Bitcoin app where all transactions can be easily carried out in smaller unit but like it's already been pointed out, it's most likely going to lead Bitcoin to go too bearish faster than we've ever thought of. The best way to look at this will be to know that Bitcoin is Bitcoin and Isn't same with the fiat. Bitcoin has its own area where its relevance is very useful regardless of its simplicity and if you ever make it too simple, it might not serve such purpose effectively. For those of us who hope to create some amount of wealth through our Bitcoin holding, the complexity with converting our Bitcoin to fiat is one sure reason why we've been able to HODL this long. If everything gets too simple, it's certainly going to affect long term holders in a bad way. It's just good that Bitcoin remains the way it his now and would be better if it goes even further up in its worth so it becomes one of the most valuable and  strong investible asset.

[goldkingcoiner]

We are making new and more convenient tech every day. Just because centralized exchanges are more convenient right now, does not mean it will stay that way in the future.

The inferior centralized versions are more convenient due to them being built on existing technology. But decentralized tech is catching up and will become just as convenient if not more, in the future.

Personally, I do not care about convenience as long as I have my freedom, privacy and security. That is more important to me.

[davis196]

I fear due to 'laziness' Blackrock & Wall street will capitalise on this and use bitcoin derivatives to make it convenient, easy & quick that is no different to current fiat banking that the world will use but it be just Fiat 2.0 while they will have all the real bitcoins and I believe in future bitcoin will scale through this derivative way only where the world will use bitcoin but not transacting on the real btc base layer blockchain but transacting on derivative btc & the governments of the world don't want people transacting on the real btc base layer blockchain and will force shops not to accept transactions on the real base layer btc blockchain but only allow derivative btc transactions only that wall street & governments will control on layer 2s or 3s or who knows The governments, wall street and blackrock might do their own exclusive layer in which they will only approve btc transactions.

Otherwise show how lazy people can transact on the btc base layer chain with cheap fees using private keys that the people control in a quick, easy convenient way like using your visa/mastercard in shops or online? Otherwise lazy people wont adopt bitcoin for everyday use, they will go back to using their quick & easy CBDC's. And if btc base layer fees are high then that will encourage btc derivatives.

The people's laziness isn't the main reason why Bitcoin isn't getting mainstream adoption. The main reasons are price volatility and transaction fee volatility. Bitcoin has turned into "digital gold", which means that this "digital gold" could soon be used as a reserve asset(that doesn't mean that it will get accepted by the central banks as a reserve currency). The real gold was the main currency centuries ago, but it was replaced by fiat money and it's role was changed from actual money to a reserve asset. Maybe the same thing will happen with BTC.
Creating an electrum wallet, keeping your seed phrase and password in a safe place and sending and receiving BTC isn't rocket science.
Even the laziest people can install an Electrum wallet and use it without any issues.

[el kaka22]

I feel like wall street making stuff that is bettong on the bet on the bet type of thing should be important and could cause some trouble there is no doubt about that part. But that's a problem for the people who deal with that exactly, if you are the one who is buying it then we could say that it's your problem and not ours. On the other hand we are talking about something clearer here, it would be very important to realize that we are not making that much of a big increase at all.

We need to make sure that people are dealing with bitcoin exactly and nothing else, if you directly connect with bitcoin then everything else is fine. Bitcoin don't need to "scale" as long as it goes like this, the past 15 years it grew exponentially and if it contineous down the road like this then we are going to end up seeing a lot of people being happy about it. Scaling isn't just going up in price, it is also more people coming into bitcoin and I believe that will happen.