bookmaker refusing to do KYC in advance - fortune jack btw-

[Beparanf]

I remember reading of the comment of casino representatives about KYC. They usually hire 3rd party to do the KYC for them since they are not allowed to do it by themselves so they only ask KYC on users that shown activity worthy to be check using the AML guidelines.

They are paying for every user who done KYC to the 3rd party KYC provider. I’m not sure how the KYC setup of every casino but maybe FJ is using this same setup that’s why they don’t want to do advance KYC unless it’s already necessary.

I just found out that casinos use third party services to verify KYC data from users, based on searches that there are articles that bring up companies providing services for data verification even including facial scanning biometrics and others.

I think there is an internal casino team handling user data verification services but if they use another company then the casino should post a partnership page or section on the website if they work with another company.

Casino usually disclose the KYC 3rd party service they are using on the verification page. The page usually have “powered by” or different terms for the company that will do KYC for the casino customers.

However, are the companies legal because they have thousands of KYC data stores of casino users?

This is still a gray area on KYC of online casino. I’m not really sure the exact answer for this but casino should have separate license to handle KYC because Curacao license is just for their legal operations.

[Russlenat]

Yeah, i know about it. And it is recommendation i gave the OP if he decides to stay here: make several small deposit and withdrawal until he will be KYCed. But i don`t think that it is a reason to scam accusation - they don`t cheat with you and you will be KYCed after one of the withdrawals. And as the result anyway i lose time - i can`t bet big bets before being KYCed or i have to spend time when i get prize.

The reply doesn’t specify how much needs to be withdrawn before KYC is required, so it might be a good idea to follow up with support to get your account KYC-verified as soon as you make your first withdrawal. This isn’t a scam accusation yet, OP was just expressing concern or sharing that a certain casino doesn’t allow for advance KYC.

The support gave an answer. That`s why there is such a thread here. I understand your idea, to ask about KYC again after withdrawal, but i think the answer will be the same. Also, the OP told that he don`t want to use casino with such rules. The result of their rules is that they lost a gambler.
I always say that we have only one opportunity to vote again such rules - our money.

The rules (TOS) are established before gamblers sign up, so it's either you sign up (agree) or don't proceed in making an account with them. However, portraying FJ as a casino that doesn’t follow standards seems unfair. Allowing everyone to submit advance KYC could lead to a flood of document submissions, which would be costly for the casino since they likely use a third party for verification and incur expenses for that service. You know, they will try to evaluate first if the account is KYC worthy or not due to the reason above, the cost.

[khaled0111]

I just found out that casinos use third party services to verify KYC data from users, based on searches that there are articles that bring up companies providing services for data verification even including facial scanning biometrics and others.

That's true, many casinos do that. However, for basic verification, casinos and many other online service providers use automated kyc softwares. That's why the verification process on some websites takes only few minutes. Manual verification is not needed unless they want to do a thorough verification to be sure the provided information/data is correct. It's really amazing how technology has evolved!

[Odusko]

I just found out that casinos use third party services to verify KYC data from users, based on searches that there are articles that bring up companies providing services for data verification even including facial scanning biometrics and others.

That's true, many casinos do that. However, for basic verification, casinos and many other online service providers use automated kyc softwares. That's why the verification process on some websites takes only few minutes. Manual verification is not needed unless they want to do a thorough verification to be sure the provided information/data is correct. It's really amazing how technology has evolved!

Khaled is very right and sometimes it is only when there is a suspected case against the gambler that is when manual verification will be done so that there can be clear and details verifications process, this can be in form of an investigations into cases that the casinos may have brought against the player, aside from that, I think most platforms most especially cryptocurrency casinos don't take time to get an account verified since most times bots do the verification in an automated ways and manners.
I also know about third party verification service or even a part time back end verifier who occasional comes in and verify any kyc documents handed to him through the backend.

[Fivestar4everMVP]

I just found out that casinos use third party services to verify KYC data from users, based on searches that there are articles that bring up companies providing services for data verification even including facial scanning biometrics and others.

That's true, many casinos do that. However, for basic verification, casinos and many other online service providers use automated kyc softwares. That's why the verification process on some websites takes only few minutes. Manual verification is not needed unless they want to do a thorough verification to be sure the provided information/data is correct. It's really amazing how technology has evolved!

Basic kyc isn't really to be considered kyc if you ask me, since from what I know, basic kyc only involves a user submitting and verifying their phone number, email address, maybe typing in their personal document number and choosing what type of document, and that's all.
A lot of people (gamblers as it pattern to gambling casinos) can use false informations to pass basic kyc verification and so on.

And for advanced kyc where the user will have to submit the photo of documents, take a picture of them holding the document, and maybe going through a live verification, this i agree that a lot of platforms including casinos and exchanges, make use of third party services, but this does not mean that they can't build their own system if they want, several of this platforms prefer to use third party kyc providers because it's convenient, and saves them(the platform) the cost of building a system afresh and maintaining it.

[Wind_FURY]

About advance KYC being a "weird practice". - But there are people in BitcoinTalk who suggest that if you're going to deposit an amount that the person considers "large", then asking for KYC in advance would be "a way to know if the depositor's I.D. and other required documents are acceptable for the casino".

That's actually a safer for the user - not talking about privacy issues and other issues concerning the safety of the of data, merely from the user's viewpoint of knowing if his/her I.D. is accepted.

OP, other casinos let you do it.

[ultrloa]

About advance KYC being a "weird practice". - But there are people in BitcoinTalk who suggest that if you're going to deposit an amount that the person considers "large", then asking for KYC in advance would be "a way to know if the depositor's I.D. and other required documents are acceptable for the casino".

That's actually a safer for the user - not talking about privacy issues and other issues concerning the safety of the of data, merely from the user's viewpoint of knowing if his/her I.D. is accepted.

OP, other casinos let you do it.

Yeah its weird practice but there are really instances like that happen.

For part of OP or someone like to do this, if they are been denied to do those things then that means they are not been allowed to do advance KYC. So they should not feel bad about it since maybe the casino he mentioned has some rules regarding on that matter. If they don't like the reply of the representative and feels like unfair in their side then the only solution they could get is either they should find an alternative casino which grant their request or they comply to the rules or what been said by the representative.

I think these situation is not an issue and sometimes in each platforms they have implemented rules implemented so that there's no other disturbance they experience especially if there's something issue will occur on their user side.

[Fivestar4everMVP]

About advance KYC being a "weird practice". - But there are people in BitcoinTalk who suggest that if you're going to deposit an amount that the person considers "large", then asking for KYC in advance would be "a way to know if the depositor's I.D. and other required documents are acceptable for the casino".

That's actually a safer for the user - not talking about privacy issues and other issues concerning the safety of the of data, merely from the user's viewpoint of knowing if his/her I.D. is accepted.

OP, other casinos let you do it.

Yeah, actually thats absolutely correct, personally, I see doing or passing a kyc verification in advance as a safe practise, it will help the gambler know if the type of government issued ID he or she has is one that is acceptd or acceptable to the casino, this gives peace of mind because you as the gambler knows that you have no money on the casino yet, so even if the casino is not accepting the type of document you have for your account verification, you can either work towards acquiring the document the casino need while they are not tying down your money, or you can simply move on to the next casino where the document you have can be accepted.

And right, several other casinos allow users to kyc before deposit, even stake, and for Stake, I think I read this somewhere that it has become mandatory for new registrants to pass kyc verification before they are allowed to deposit and play on the site, I don't understand why fortunejack can't follow the same step.

[panjul07]

I think these situation is not an issue and sometimes in each platforms they have implemented rules implemented so that there's no other disturbance they experience especially if there's something issue will occur on their user side.

That's the point, any platform has their own rules/terms and players are free to choose whether to accept it or not.
Players can force the platform to do something as what players want, suggestion is welcomed ofc but if the platform cant do it then players should accept it.
If the players can accept it, simply find other platforms that can provide anything they wish.
For me, a platform do not want to do KYC in advance is not something wrong or not something weird because they have their own right to do so.

[pawel7777]

(...)
its not weird im sorry but in france u do kyc first
and in the philippines its same
(...)

You're right that doing KYC first would be a good practice and would provide a peace of mind for players, but it's unrealistic to expect that they will change how their system work just for you.
It could be that the KYC checks are triggered only after a certain deposit (or amount wagered) is reached. Or maybe they don't do KYC checks at all and maybe they have them in their terms of service just in case. I haven't used FortuneJack in years so I don't know what are their KYC requirements nowadays.

Maybe it would be useful to ask about that in their ANN thread as usually Customer Service staff is not very helpful with queries of that sort.

[delfastTions]

I can`t agree with you. If they have problems with security, why they KYC during withdraw? I don`t see any reason why they refuse too KYC someone. If they don`t sure in their security system - they can just mark the gambler as KYCed without holding his documents.
I have the same opinion: if the casino reject the KYC - they are ready to cheat you any way. May be not to steal your money, but at least to try to freeze it.

Marking KYC-ed without saving the client’s documents is simply meaningless simply for the reason that the casino cannot guarantee that they are interacting with a specific person who is their client and has previously submitted some documents.  In general, such a mark does not mean anything at all in case of substitution or sale or hacking of an account.  

As for KYC when withdrawing money from a casino deposit to a client’s account, as I understand it, OP does not say anything about such a requirement.  It is quite possible that he plays without any verification at all, anonymously.  
By the way, anonymity when playing in online casinos using cryptocurrencies is a very important need and is in demand by millions of players around the world.  Such a service is necessary for many reasons, among which there may be government prohibitions and personal reasons and many other reasons to hide one’s identity.

Saved documents willn`t protect from such situations anyway if the account is KYCed. In both situations security has to ask KYC again.

The OP doesn`t withdraw money, but the support answered that he will be KYCed after withdraw request. You can see it on the screenshot in the first message.

Can you imagine the labor costs of the support service itself to check clients’ KYC documents?

I don't believe you are saying this bro, the labour costs? If a company is not ready, why start it? And why would I go for a quackery casino? We should not find excuses for this act and what you stated above is more reason for an intending customer to fear them because they are not just prepared. Your position also means that they could later have a liquidity problem if they couldn't hire the right regular staff and other experts to merely verify documents for them. It could only mean that the money of the customer is not safe with them, so you are only "adding salt to their injury" if that is the case.

In any case, collecting and storing clients’ personal data is quite expensive. 
Imagine that you have to collect data, check it, verify it, and then store it not just as a regular database, but as a database with limited access.  We need specialists in these matters.  I think that for many casinos, the casino itself spends even more money on maintaining a confidential customer database and protecting them from hacking than on developing the software for their games.  So you are mistaken if you think that ensuring KYC is so simple and cheap. 

I quite understand the school of thought you are bringing this from but what you do not realise is that it is not right. If you are not ready, you are not ready, and more ways how a casino that is not truly regulated can be detected. No casino can give a standard regulator an excuse you are making, it's either you suspend your casino establishment time till a later date when all needed requirements are met or you obey the regulation and the law of the country where you domicile. This is not an informal setting as you take it if authorities are involved.

Think of it, why is this request of FJ strange with many people commenting to the point that some users called it "weird?" That means it is not common. We should not find excuses for what is not good or unprofessional, why are other casinos not doing the same? Common!!! It's fine if FJ is not a KYC casino, everyone would relax, but it is a KYC casino. For someone wanting to do a lawful KYC with it and FJ postponing it for a day that is not even determined is unacceptable. Every serious company will be prepared for what the law requires of them and completing the KYC of their customer is the least of what to expect from a casino but I wonder why you believe it's fine.

I consider this normal simply based on the laws of operation of any business.  Including in the gambling industry.  This law clearly tells us that minimizing expenses and maximizing income is what any normal, sane businessman does, and this is obvious and correct.  So, any businessman will reduce expenses that, to some extent, can be considered not entirely necessary or that can simply not be spent. And extra KYC is extra expenses.  That's what I think.  But at the same time, I do not justify such casino actions, but rather treat their actions, as they say, with an understanding of the motives and the process itself.

[mak013]

The support gave an answer. That`s why there is such a thread here. I understand your idea, to ask about KYC again after withdrawal, but i think the answer will be the same. Also, the OP told that he don`t want to use casino with such rules. The result of their rules is that they lost a gambler.
I always say that we have only one opportunity to vote again such rules - our money.

The rules (TOS) are established before gamblers sign up, so it's either you sign up (agree) or don't proceed in making an account with them. However, portraying FJ as a casino that doesn’t follow standards seems unfair. Allowing everyone to submit advance KYC could lead to a flood of document submissions, which would be costly for the casino since they likely use a third party for verification and incur expenses for that service. You know, they will try to evaluate first if the account is KYC worthy or not due to the reason above, the cost.

The same time i need to know if i can trust the casino. They says that they take care about gamblers, but i see that they take care about themselves. They save money and refuse KYC, they KYC during withdraw freezing my prize and save money, for some time at least. I don`t see that they take care about gamblers.
At least one of the gambler decided to change casino after their "care". I didn`t use it before and i sure that willn`t use anytime. We can take care about our money too.

[EarnOnVictor]

I consider this normal simply based on the laws of operation of any business.  Including in the gambling industry.  This law clearly tells us that minimizing expenses and maximizing income is what any normal, sane businessman does, and this is obvious and correct.  So, any businessman will reduce expenses that, to some extent, can be considered not entirely necessary or that can simply not be spent.

I beg to disagree with you about this law you quoted my friend, no law states you should minimize cost thereby abandoning your statutory responsibility for standard service to your client/customer. You are only bringing this out of the company's consideration for productivity which will be selfish if they lag in their required responsible service.

And extra KYC is extra expenses.  That's what I think.  But at the same time, I do not justify such casino actions, but rather treat their actions, as they say, with an understanding of the motives and the process itself.

I like this part, we can only speak for ourselves but not others, not to mention companies that could even be selfish with their ulterior motives. A few of their staff could get the verification done. There are technologies for that and thousands could be easily checked a day. I wonder if they have thousands of requests daily.

[Outhue]

OP you've done the right thing by asking them first, and I am glad you aren't liking their respond, now you can find another online casino, their rules is final and they are not at any fault, find a online casino where you can pass their KYC before making any deposits.

On a norms online casinos should operate like cex that have options for KYC verifications available so that gamblers can pass them before using the platform, to me it boost confidence in the mind of gamblers, telling this customer a no for answer equals loosing a customer.

This doesn't mean that fortunejack is a scam, I don't like the idea as well but there is nothing we can do about it, fortunejack will be used by those that trusted them, and it appears that you aren't one of them, just find someone else.

[Russlenat]

The support gave an answer. That`s why there is such a thread here. I understand your idea, to ask about KYC again after withdrawal, but i think the answer will be the same. Also, the OP told that he don`t want to use casino with such rules. The result of their rules is that they lost a gambler.
I always say that we have only one opportunity to vote again such rules - our money.

The rules (TOS) are established before gamblers sign up, so it's either you sign up (agree) or don't proceed in making an account with them. However, portraying FJ as a casino that doesn’t follow standards seems unfair. Allowing everyone to submit advance KYC could lead to a flood of document submissions, which would be costly for the casino since they likely use a third party for verification and incur expenses for that service. You know, they will try to evaluate first if the account is KYC worthy or not due to the reason above, the cost.

The same time i need to know if i can trust the casino. They says that they take care about gamblers, but i see that they take care about themselves. They save money and refuse KYC, they KYC during withdraw freezing my prize and save money, for some time at least. I don`t see that they take care about gamblers.
At least one of the gambler decided to change casino after their "care". I didn`t use it before and i sure that willn`t use anytime. We can take care about our money too.

With the path you want to take, you can go freely, as not every casino you play at will give you what you want. It’s just like the saying, "You can’t please everyone." So, they might not serve you the way you like, and you might not like them, but one thing is certain: rules are rules, and both you and the casino must abide by them.

[Woodie]

About advance KYC being a "weird practice". - But there are people in BitcoinTalk who suggest that if you're going to deposit an amount that the person considers "large", then asking for KYC in advance would be "a way to know if the depositor's I.D. and other required documents are acceptable for the casino".

I think having seen several scam accusations on the forum involving users having players failing to take money out of their gaming accounts because of failing KYC for unacceptable documents etc...i would advocate for doing KYC before a deposit just to avoid the inconvenience of back and forth communication especially if it has been denied before on another platform!!! But if you haven't run into problems with other gambling platforms then no need to fear (take this with a pinch of salt 🧂)

And am pretty sure at the moment not so many casino's/bookies have the feature to go through the KYC process before  deposits to avoid account selling and probably its a security feature on their side  

[Fivestar4everMVP]

About advance KYC being a "weird practice". - But there are people in BitcoinTalk who suggest that if you're going to deposit an amount that the person considers "large", then asking for KYC in advance would be "a way to know if the depositor's I.D. and other required documents are acceptable for the casino".

I think having seen several scam accusations on the forum involving users having players failing to take money out of their gaming accounts because of failing KYC for unacceptable documents etc...i would advocate for doing KYC before a deposit just to avoid the inconvenience of back and forth communication especially if it has been denied before on another platform!!! But if you haven't run into problems with other gambling platforms then no need to fear (take this with a pinch of salt 🧂)

And am pretty sure at the moment not so many casino's/bookies have the feature to go through the KYC process before  deposits to avoid account selling and probably its a security feature on their side  

There is definitely a reason or two to still be afraid even if you as a gambler have never encountered any issue with a casino refusing to accept your KYC verification document, and this is because it is commonly said that a wise man do not wait until something bad happens to him before he will learn, he simply learns from what have happened to other people.
If there have been accusations from multiple users who claim they can not take their money out of their casino account because they casino have forced passing kyc verification on them, and yet, not accepting the document they have provided for the verification, this also can happen to anyone on a different casino as well, including the one who has never had or experienced such issue before..
So, for the gambler who is ready, its always better to pass kyc verification ahead or before depositing and playing on the casino, as doing this can help prevent unnecessary stress and anxiety in the future.

The ability to submit kyc document and pass verification before making a deposit is already and has always been available on Stake.com, and this is something I believe even other smaller casinos should emulate.

[mak013]

The same time i need to know if i can trust the casino. They says that they take care about gamblers, but i see that they take care about themselves. They save money and refuse KYC, they KYC during withdraw freezing my prize and save money, for some time at least. I don`t see that they take care about gamblers.
At least one of the gambler decided to change casino after their "care". I didn`t use it before and i sure that willn`t use anytime. We can take care about our money too.

With the path you want to take, you can go freely, as not every casino you play at will give you what you want. It’s just like the saying, "You can’t please everyone." So, they might not serve you the way you like, and you might not like them, but one thing is certain: rules are rules, and both you and the casino must abide by them.

There is one more saying "You can`t win playing the others` table". It is such situation. The casino use their opportunity to write rules. I have the only choice - to choose the casino with the rules that i like. But the problem is that the rules are about the same. As the result all casino will have the same ToS and we willn`t have any choice.

[virasog]

I just found out that casinos use third party services to verify KYC data from users, based on searches that there are articles that bring up companies providing services for data verification even including facial scanning biometrics and others.

That's true, many casinos do that. However, for basic verification, casinos and many other online service providers use automated kyc softwares. That's why the verification process on some websites takes only few minutes. Manual verification is not needed unless they want to do a thorough verification to be sure the provided information/data is correct. It's really amazing how technology has evolved!

Basic verifications may take a few minutes to verify through an automated system but some people get the fake verifications get approved though this system. If at any time the casino randomly checks the verifications or they need to investigate any gamblers and by chance, if they find doubt in the KYC verification, it may get the account terminated or block the casino. I think that automated KYC procedures casino aren't reliable and some sites may not a strong check system in place to distinguish between real and fake documents.

[EarnOnVictor]

I just found out that casinos use third party services to verify KYC data from users, based on searches that there are articles that bring up companies providing services for data verification even including facial scanning biometrics and others.

That's true, many casinos do that. However, for basic verification, casinos and many other online service providers use automated kyc softwares. That's why the verification process on some websites takes only few minutes. Manual verification is not needed unless they want to do a thorough verification to be sure the provided information/data is correct. It's really amazing how technology has evolved!

Basic verifications may take a few minutes to verify through an automated system but some people get the fake verifications get approved though this system. If at any time the casino randomly checks the verifications or they need to investigate any gamblers and by chance, if they find doubt in the KYC verification, it may get the account terminated or block the casino. I think that automated KYC procedures casino aren't reliable and some sites may not a strong check system in place to distinguish between real and fake documents.

This verification of a thing is not so burdensome as some people take it and as the automated verification could verify the fake documents at times, so is the manual verification. This can only mean that no means of verification is perfect, not even in the airports, some passports and visas are not actually from the right authorities but would still be passed by them. If a well-equipped and sophisticated point of entry could be deceived that much, casinos should not prove to be the hero, many fake documents would pass their radar undetected. Even the government knows this, but what the government is required of them is to do their part and leave the rest, they can't be perfect.