What would be the best way to get through customs at an airport with your Btc?

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

And this is something where my technical knowledge is significantly limited. The whole topic about backdoors. I only know that most of what big corporations like Apple, Google, Facebook and so on and so forth have long been claiming about their privacy policies and that they would not cooperate with intelligence agencies, has all been refuted. Telegram claimed that their service is fully encrypted and no cooperation is ongoing with intelligence agencies, but there was proof not too long ago that it is a lie.

As long as centralized services or products like hard drives are used, what is the chance that all these things are coming with backdoors? Yet, assuming they have a backdoor and can read your hard drive and find private keys while you think they can't because it is encrypted, it would not be smart to let you know that they know as backdoors only work when nobody knows that they do. That is why earlier I said they would probably go after you in other ways via the tax law and not because you didn't declare digital value at the border. It will mostly be about target identification, subsequent surveillance and then whatever the law allows them to do.

The issue of backdoors into various hardware (or even into decrypting software) is beyond my own capabilities.

I have been considering if the method of encrypting is open source and solid, then it should not matter where such encrypted files are stored, they cannot be decrypted absent some kind of luck.. like trying to guess the location of one atom on the planet or perhaps one atom within the galaxy.

The one issue I still see is how are they going to design the law in the future that a guy at the border who carries in excess of $10,000 in cash is treated the same as the guy who carries in excess of $10,000 in bitcoin? Bitcoin is beyond supranational, and this is a bloody important feature of the network. No global legal framework will ever be able to dissolve the problems that nation states have with a currency they can't control. But there are still many, many, many people who haven't understood or don't want to understand that this is what strongly contributes to bitcoin's network value.

We all know that physical versus digital remains quite different so it is quite difficult to have parallels in the way that they are treated.

We already know that any single one of us can transport all of our wealth, or even the wealth of many others through one private key that can be carried in a variety of ways, and we can carry it anywhere around the world without anyone knowing or being able to figure it out, once they know, beyond perhaps beating us or charming us into revealing it.  

It makes little sense to even conceptualize treating the digital versus physical the same... but yeah there still can be some interest in regards to how there might be any attempts to place controls on something like bitcoin at border crossings, and yeah of course, there are already a lot of tracking attempts and even increasing attempts at being able to monitor (and likely control) on and off ramps.. .which ultimate results in also trying to control individual ability to transact directly. which hopefully there will develop increasing resistance towards those direct transaction controls.  Sure, there are going to continue to be casualties along the way  and pretexts in regards to why it is for our own good to have third parties trying to intervene in direct transactions.

As soon as you access larger amounts of value outside your own country, it is possible that doesn't go unnoticed for very long

How many people are spending more than $10k abroad, without wanting a paper trail? If it's legal, like buying a car, I'd want a paper trail. If it's illegal what you're doing, it's no surprise they'll come after you.

Many of us are aware that the $10k limitations had origins that were in the ballpark of 50 years ago, so these kinds of limitations have been increasingly eroding at our rights to privacy and our abilities to transact... so I have troubles presuming that someone who is wanting to transact without paper trails in foreign jurisdictions with more than $10k is presumed to be "trying to get away with something."  $10k does not go very far these days... Even normal people could easily spend $10k a month on somewhat normal traveling expenses..and surely in the early $70s, $10k would have had taken normal people more than a year to spend on somewhat "normal traveling expenses".   So yeah, $10k these days is likely 1/12th the amount when those various $10k transaction (reporting) limitation rules were put into place.

I only know that most of what big corporations like Apple, Google, Facebook and so on and so forth have long been claiming about their privacy policies and that they would not cooperate with intelligence agencies, has all been refuted.

Now compare Protonmail or Mullvad: they can't share what they don't have or can't decrypt. Any good privacy service shouldn't keep records they can access.

I suppose that "we" (proclaiming to be non-technical folks) are somewhat reliant upon the claims of certain services (as the ones you mentioned) not actually having and/or logging data that pass through their services.

[LoyceV]

Even normal people could easily spend $10k a month on somewhat normal traveling expenses.

But "normal people" nowadays aren't paying cash for those amounts. Who brings a thick pile of 200+ $50 bills on their holiday?

I suppose that "we" (proclaiming to be non-technical folks) are somewhat reliant upon the claims of certain services (as the ones you mentioned) not actually having and/or logging data that pass through their services.

Yep. But they're quite open about it: Mullvad VPN was subject to a search warrant. Customer data not compromised. I remember a similar story about Protonmail: they have to comply, but they couldn't decrypt the emails.

[tinus42]

I think in the best technical way to get through without the agents being able to detect that you have a single satoshi. The most logical would be to memorize the seeds but relying on memory would not leave me 100% at ease. Is there another feasible, safe way?

Get a paper book (one you would read on a plane) and look for the words in the seed and underline them, one word per page, use a pencil so it's not so obvious. then write down the page numbers in a tiny notebook inconspicously in the order of the seed words. Walk through customs with the book in your hand luggage and put the notepad in your checked baggage. When you arrive at your destination you can put your seed back together. Even if your luggage gets seized or stolen you won't likely lose your bitcoins if you also have the seed backed up somewhere else.

[apogio]

then write down the page numbers in a tiny notebook inconspicously in the order of the seed words.

why write the page numbers down? I don't think it would help, because you could just flip all the pages and find the words. It's only for convenience, but actually writting the page numbers on another notebook creates one more place where they could search. Besides, if you wrote down the page numbers (i.e 12 numbers), you could also write down the numbers of the words in the BIP-39 list (e.g. 291 for cattle, 103 for art etc).  

[Forsyth Jones]

then write down the page numbers in a tiny notebook inconspicously in the order of the seed words.

why write the page numbers down? I don't think it would help, because you could just flip all the pages and find the words. It's only for convenience, but actually writting the page numbers on another notebook creates one more place where they could search. Besides, if you wrote down the page numbers (i.e 12 numbers), you could also write down the numbers of the words in the BIP-39 list (e.g. 291 for cattle, 103 for art etc).  

The book should contain all 2048 words from the BIP39 list. I don't think it's worth all that effort. Furthermore, even if the book contains almost all the words that make up your seedphrase, you'll still be missing 4 to 6 words. You'll need to find another way to make up for this gap.

I don't see a better solution than steganography. It's very easy to hide information in a random PNG or JPEG image, but obviously you should encrypt the seedphrase first... the rest depends on your creativity.

If you're carrying a hardware wallet, keep it in your carry-on luggage, don't check it in, and if you're questioned about it, at most they'll ask why you're carrying this device and what it does. But you shouldn't have your device seized for this, I haven't heard of any country that restricts Bitcoin use or requires BTC declarations at customs.

[apogio]

The book should contain all 2048 words from the BIP39 list. I don't think it's worth all that effort. Furthermore, even if the book contains almost all the words that make up your seedphrase, you'll still be missing 4 to 6 words. You'll need to find another way to make up for this gap.

I also dislike this method, as I explained above, but why should the book contain all 2048 words? I believe it should only contain the 12 that you 're using in your seed phrase. It's also obvious that you should mark a number near the word to indicate which position the word is. Because for example the fourth word could be on a later page than the ninth word etc.

[Cricktor]

Well, if you cross borders of countries and this is what we're here speculating about, bring one or two language dictionaries. Those usually contain a lot of distinct words, don't they? OK, I see a potential "problem", it has to be a dictionary English<>other language / other language<>English to work for the likely most common use case of English BIP39 wordlist. I'd surely have an unsuspicious explanation for why English is part of one language side of such dictionaries carried with me.

Otherwise just take a thick English book with you written in not too simple language, i.e. something with rich language, not one for smartphone fried and diluted brains.

If you can't find one of your specific recovery words, no problem. Simply mark required characters of other words with inconspicuous and discreet pencil specs. Important: check if you can successfully recreate your mnemonic recovery words before you travel!

I would highly recommend to do the marking in at least two different books, in case you loose one. Don't choose books that might be considered offensive or inacceptable in the country you enter! You don't want them to be confiscated at customs for whatever reasons.

[LoyceV]

The book should contain all 2048 words from the BIP39 list.

That's easy. Example: "abandon":

I don't think it's worth all that effort. Furthermore, even if the book contains almost all the words that make up your seedphrase, you'll still be missing 4 to 6 words. You'll need to find another way to make up for this gap.

It's a cumbersome task to write down and find back.

I believe it should only contain the 12 that you 're using in your seed phrase.

I wouldn't know if any of the books in my posession have the word "abandon" written in it. It's going to take quite a while to find those 12 words, without any guarantee of success. An eBook would make it easy, but you shouldn't just enter your seed words in the Search field on an online system either.

[DYING_S0UL]

The book should contain all 2048 words from the BIP39 list. I don't think it's worth all that effort. Furthermore, even if the book contains almost all the words that make up your seedphrase, you'll still be missing 4 to 6 words. You'll need to find another way to make up for this gap.

I also dislike this method, as I explained above, but why should the book contain all 2048 words? I believe it should only contain the 12 that you 're using in your seed phrase. It's also obvious that you should mark a number near the word to indicate which position the word is. Because for example the fourth word could be on a later page than the ninth word etc.

In this case, using a dictionary would be a great choice if you are looking for all 2048 words. But that seems like too much, imo. That's why I agree with apogio here, what we need is a book that contains my seed words! There's no need to carry around a thick book, just a novel would be enough. The challenge lies in finding a book that has these 12/24 seed words. Unless you’re a writer yourself, it could be quite difficult task finding it.

Figuring out the order number would be up to the user who chooses this method. You could write down the page and paragraph number or use other methods to indicate it! One could also use color combinations, the possibilities are endless here!

[apogio]

I wouldn't know if any of the books in my posession have the word "abandon" written in it. It's going to take quite a while to find those 12 words, without any guarantee of success. An eBook would make it easy, but you shouldn't just enter your seed words in the Search field on an online system either.

In this case, using a dictionary would be a great choice if you are looking for all 2048 words. But that seems like too much, imo. That's why I agree with apogio here, what we need is a book that contains my seed words! There's no need to carry around a thick book, just a novel would be enough. The challenge lies in finding a book that has these 12/24 seed words. Unless you’re a writer yourself, it could be quite difficult task finding it.

I guess we 're always reaching the same argument, that in fact, carrying a book with our seed phrase marked in it isn't a good option.
I am still struggling with finding the optimal method, but in the meantime, there's a great video by 402 Payment Required which is split in 3 parts. I don't think I will follow it, but it's a great nerdy thing, which is exactly what I like to watch. 

[takuma sato]

I really don't see any problem with paper wallets, hot/cold wallet on a phone, a seedphrase on a USD stick. I'm not sure where you're from, and I never seen this happening, so I really can't imagine them going through your phone apps. Is that even legal? Also, is this even something you have to do? I mean declaring your bitcoin holdings regardless of the amount?

Well, in the EU you must declare everything over 10.000€.

I would say that in general it is not legal for them to go though your apps but I have seen border control programs where it does seem mandatory, or at least they can make it more difficult for you to enter the country or hold you if you don't cooperate.

I was thinking hypothetically.

There are reports now of people getting stopped on US customs and being forced to decrypt their phones. Some journalists and researchers got apparently stopped and were told to handle customs their phones in search of any critisicms of Trump. That is some North Korea stuff. But laptops and phones being forced to be decrypted at airports are nothing new. There has been reports of this happening. For this, I wouldn't never cross any borders with anything encrypted. You simply cannot afford the risk that you need to decrypt your stuff and have your coins there. So simply upload your wallet somewhere in the cloud encrypted, then cross whatever borders and recover your backup and once you are safe to go then you could get rid of the cloud backup if you are not comfortable having your wallet online, but if it's fully encrypted then it's the same as trusting that SHA256 is not cracked so basically it's the same as trusting BTC addresses not being cracked.

[NotFuzzyWarm]

There are reports now of people getting stopped on US customs and being forced to decrypt their phones. Some journalists and researchers got apparently stopped and were told to handle customs their phones in search of any critisicms of Trump.

That is completely 'Fake News'.
The ONLY time US CBP is allowed to request access to your electronic devices is if there is prior evidence pointing them to suspicion of illegal activity such as money laundering, narcotics activity, espionage, illegal pornography, human trafficking, etc. They are NOT allowed to do that as part of a random inspection without other evidence giving a need to access your devices so you can explain away their concerns - PERIOD.

For all of those idiotic 'Sovereign Citizens' who feel laws do not apply to them, even then you are NOT required to give access but of course CBP can and probably will deny you entry to the country.

Doing it to look for criticisms of Trumpolini does NOT fall under access rules and is in fact highly illegal.

[tinus42]

Given that there are lots of people who don't like Trump having pro-Trump/MAGA stuff on your phone might also be grounds for getting harassed by customs/TSA on an individual basis. There are lots of scare stories around, until someone shows evidence of Trump or someone in his entourage having ordered critics to be stopped at entry I'd rank those as either overreach by an individual official or "fake news". I wonder if the US is on the path towards a civil war after having seen the movie of the same name. There seem to be such high levels of civic mistrust. I don't care much for Trump but neither for Harris. Republicans and Democrats are two sides of the same coin if you ask me.

[apogio]

The ONLY time US CBP is allowed to request access to your electronic devices is if there is prior evidence pointing them to suspicion of illegal activity such as money laundering, narcotics activity, espionage, illegal pornography, human trafficking, etc. They are NOT allowed to do that as part of random inspection without other evidence giving a need to access your devices so you can explain away their concerns - PERIOD.

That's the normal behaviour in my opinion and, fortunately, it's what happens in most countries that I 've visited. Disclaimer: most countries I 've been to are in the EU and north America.

I suppose that even if they did that, to try and access your devices, it would be your right to ask for reasoning and even sue the authorities for abuse of power.

[Synchronice]

I have crossed borders with Electrum installed on my smartphone and PC but no one has ever asked me anything.
If no one knows, that means that it didn't happen, which means no need to declare anything.

That's the wrong approach. I always declare everything I have to, up to an apple in some countries. If it's not allowed, I'll throw it away. But at least I won't get into any kind of trouble.

I forgot about this reply, I found it out today, so pardon me for asking it right now.
Why is this a wrong approach? We talk about Bitcoin, it's virtual. I travel multiple times throughout a year (inside the EU, mostly, sometimes in the UK and once was in the USA a few months ago to watch UFC fight). I have never ever said anything about my Electrum wallet and Bitcoins. Seriously, why should I declare, why is this a bad approach? It's on my laptop and smartphone, who will ever know? Will anyone ever ask me to turn on my laptop and unlock it? This hasn't happened ever in my case and I would have travelled at least 100 times in my life.
By the way, I never carry something that requires prescription and if there is anything in the future that's not allowed in the country, of course, I'll declare that but I have never thought about declaring my cryptos in Electrum wallet.
Maybe if I had to travel in certain countries like China, Russia, Belarus, North Korea, Iran, Sudan, I'd declare but I think I'm quite safe inside the EU, UK, USA and Canada, am I right? (I know that Australian customs are crazy).

[Forsyth Jones]

Regardless of the method used, you should always make backups, whether physical or securely encrypted. Memorizing a 12 - 24-word seed can be an extra layer of security, saving you from headaches and making things easier like crossing borders (after all, who's going to guess what you're thinking?). Practice recalling your seed 1-2 times a week. Over time, it will become second nature (research spaced repetition).

However, memorizing your seed is not a substitute for physical backups. It's just a complement. If something compromises your physical integrity or memory (like an accident), you will lose access to your coins if you don't have backups. Nowadays, I don't need my physical backups, but they're there if I ever need them.

There are methods like Border Wallets, which propose solutions for transporting seeds discreetly if you're afraid of being caught in the act of power abuse at airports. However, I don't recommend it, I found it too complicated and there are gentler methods.

[SuperBitMan]

First what is there to fear about customs knowing about the number of Bitcoin in your wallet however if you want to keep it private for security reasons then all you have to do is to remove the app from your phone when you pass and get to your destination then you can install back the app however before you do this make sure you are with your seed phrase and you can remember your password, now you can bring a school note with you a note that has been written school work all over it then you can write your seed phrase one character on one page the other in another page and you are good to go.
But I don't think customs will be bothered check our wallet because they know if we have something that will implicate us we just simply delete the app but if they will check just do as I explained above.

[LoyceV]

Why is this a wrong approach?

I was talking about this part:

If no one knows, that means that it didn't happen, which means no need to declare anything.

Although my statement was more in general than about Bitcoin. In some countries, I've declared a piece of fruit at customs. Not declaring it would have given them a reason to fine me.

We talk about Bitcoin, it's virtual.

In that case, I'd apply this:

You could argue you're not bringing anything physical. Otherwise hiding it from customs would be illegal.
Bitcoin isn't in your wallet, Bitcoin is on the blockchain. You may have access to it, but that's kinda like having access to your bank account when you're abroad.

Seriously, why should I declare, why is this a bad approach?

If you feel you should declare Bitcoin, it kinda makes you a smuggler if you don't declare it.

Maybe if I had to travel in certain countries like China, Russia, Belarus, North Korea, Iran, Sudan, I'd declare

That sounds like a great way to be forced to pay a bribe. I'm not going to any of those countries.

[apogio]

There are methods like Border Wallets, which propose solutions for transporting seeds discreetly if you're afraid of being caught in the act of power abuse at airports. However, I don't recommend it, I found it too complicated and there are gentler methods.

I checked this out and I 've noted that you don't recommend it, but just for discussion, my problems are:

1. what if you successfuly travel to country X and you realise you can't restore your wallet because you don't remember how to? The brain can work amazingly bizzare in some situations.
2. what if you need to go to another country permanently? In this case you can't have a backup at the origin country, because you 're leaving forever.

You could, theoretically, and I think it's the only solution:
(a) keep a backup at the origin country
(b) travel to the destination, having memorized the wallet
(c) restore the wallet and back it up at the destination and
(d) then go back to the origin country and destroy the backup you had there

[LoyceV]

(d) then go back to the origin country and destroy the backup you had there

Or just move your coins to a new wallet