Gamblers can't win an argumet if the casino says they can't disclose the details

[Russlenat]

I was planning to post this in the gambling section, but I think there are more active users here with good minds who can share their opinions and suggestions. Also, most of the active contributors in the gambling section are also active here ( I guess) , so to get better ideas, I'll just post it here ^{(but if it's not allowed, mods please move it).}

I've been reading a lot in the scam accusation threads where users complain that their money has been frozen and their accounts closed by casinos. Although most of these complaints are from newbies, which could make you think they are just trying to ruin the casino’s reputation, there are casinos that respond to the accusations, and some that don't. For those that do respond, their common answer seems to be that they cannot disclose the reasons due to privacy.

So, if that’s their reason, how can the issue be resolved? Is there even a point in making a scam accusation if the casino can’t give a fully transparent answer?

We all know the rules about privacy because casinos are regulated and can be held accountable. So the question is, how can we help a complainant get justice and not allow casinos to abuse this situation?

[Upgrade00]

So, if that’s their reason, how can the issue be resolved? Is there even a point in making a scam accusation if the casino can’t give a fully transparent answer?

In such cases the casino is not looking to get the issue resolved. Best case scenario is the information of why the account was frozen puts their casino at risk and they will not want others trying out the same trick to win, worst case scenario they are leveraging on their terms that allows them seize funds without warning or reason to scam the player.

Not all scam accusations go that way, so if you are sure you didn't break any rules and maybe have evidence on this, you should post a scam accusation against them.

We all know the rules about privacy because casinos are regulated and can be held accountable. So the question is, how can we help a complainant get justice and not allow casinos to abuse this situation?

• They can privately communicate the reason to the player,
• They can also communicate their reason to trusted users in the community who will act as mediators and can vouch that they're in the right or not.
• Simply shutting down a case without proof is a shady tactic and enough reason to avoid a  casino.

[Apocollapse]

This is what I said words vs words, there's no way to know which one is lying and which one saying the truth.

The gamblers can send photoshopped pictures, while the casinos can give wall of text explanation without any evidences.

It's why I don't see scam accusations thread are something that need to be discussed so long except both of the players and the casinos.

If the casino only scam 1-2 users, people will not give much attention. But if there are at least 5 users claimed to have a same problem, usually the community will take action to the casino, just like Freebitco.in case.

[Little Mouse]

You will never want to share how you identify the multi account or how you identify the abusers because that will definitely give abusers a bypass in the next attempt. There are mediators who can solve issue like this. Casino guru, ask gambler can play role here.
Here in bitcointalk, we have seen a few cases where casino trusted a trusted member of the forum and shared the details.

[Pandu Geddon]

So, if that’s their reason, how can the issue be resolved? Is there even a point in making a scam accusation if the casino can’t give a fully transparent answer?

accusations can still be made but of course with the necessary evidence. but in such cases, most will attach evidence of conversations with support and some deposits or screenshots of winnings. it is difficult for us as forum users to identify whether the story that is told is true or there is still something that is not told. such as the example of having multiple accounts. we can't verify that but the casino has it.

the best way is through a mediator. it can be through a trusted member on the forum who is willing to help the case. or like the recent case at the Winz.io casino.
casino representatives provide information if there is no satisfaction with the results that cannot be proven on the forum. they encourage the accuser to continue the case to a recognized mediation service. i think that's a good solution.

While we cannot disclose specific details of the investigation in a public forum due to privacy and security reasons, we want to assure you that our decision was based on conclusive evidence. However, if you believe that this decision is incorrect or if you would like to review the evidence in detail, we encourage you to open a case with a recognized mediation service such as AskGamblers. This will allow us to share all relevant information with the mediator in a secure and transparent manner.

[Russlenat]

You will never want to share how you identify the multi account or how you identify the abusers because that will definitely give abusers a bypass in the next attempt. There are mediators who can solve issue like this. Casino guru, ask gambler can play role here.
Here in bitcointalk, we have seen a few cases where casino trusted a trusted member of the forum and shared the details.

I understand, they can share information but only limited details.

Regarding trusted members, it might be better if we have a mediator here on the forum who is elected by the DT members, to avoid bias in judgment. Since it’s just a member, having members involved reduces the chance of bias. I think we really need this because the scam accusation section is not fully utilized, especially for cases involving casinos and gamblers.

This is what I said words vs words, there's no way to know which one is lying and which one saying the truth.

The gamblers can send photoshopped pictures, while the casinos can give wall of text explanation without any evidences.

This really happens, which is why I’m concerned because it seems like it just turns into a battle of explanations. Sometimes, there are complaints from non-native English speakers who struggle to express themselves.

Maybe LM’s suggestion of needing a mediator is good, but I’d suggest that the mediators should be well-known and trusted members themselves.

accusations can still be made but of course with the necessary evidence. but in such cases, most will attach evidence of conversations with support and some deposits or screenshots of winnings. it is difficult for us as forum users to identify whether the story that is told is true or there is still something that is not told. such as the example of having multiple accounts. we can't verify that but the casino has it.

Yes, since screenshots can be easily edited these days, it's true that relying on them alone for evidence is risky. Most of us are suggesting having a mediator. The question is, can the DT members organize themselves to select a mediator among them to address this issue? The idea is to choose from the DT members since they are the most trusted on the forum. DT1 members could be selected, and for the voting criteria, we could make it open to public suggestions on how and what criteria to use.

[_act_]

So, if that’s their reason, how can the issue be resolved? Is there even a point in making a scam accusation if the casino can’t give a fully transparent answer?

We all know the rules about privacy because casinos are regulated and can be held accountable. So the question is, how can we help a complainant get justice and not allow casinos to abuse this situation?

I think askgamblers or casinoguru can be helpful if you report the case. Also you can file a lawsuit. But most gamblers are losing the lawsuits against the gambling sites. In most cases, the gambler do disobey the terms of service of the gambling site. Some of them will not read the terms of service while some want to make profit from cheating.

[CryptoHeadlineNews]

I've been reading a lot in the scam accusation threads where users complain that their money has been frozen and their accounts closed by casinos. Although most of these complaints are from newbies, which could make you think they are just trying to ruin the casino’s reputation

In regards to this, it's likely to be that most times these "Newbie" accounts we see making complaints may have been created after they got scammed by a casino, for the purpose of getting justice for their funds, and not literally that they intend to ruined a casino's reputation, especially those who usually provides enough proof for their scam cases.

We all know the rules about privacy because casinos are regulated and can be held accountable. So the question is, how can we help a complainant get justice and not allow casinos to abuse this situation?

Just as everybody has suggested, getting a mediator with an unbiased judgement should be a better solution to this menace affecting gamblers, whose judgement must always be respected by all casinos that wishes to operate on the Bitcointalk forum. Because one thing is getting a mediator, and another thing is having all the casinos respect whatever judgement the mediator makes regarding any scam accusation case.

Hence, if all casinos can be subjected to respect whatever decision the mediator makes regarding any scam case, then it will be a welcome development for scam regulation.

[cryptoaddictchie]

the best way is through a mediator. it can be through a trusted member on the forum who is willing to help the case.

This is right however this will be voluntarily on the side of user who will help. But we cant assigned a user since there are a lot of casino sites and some users complained cant justify the evidence that will be presented just by inserting some photos or wall of text to explain the issue.

Props to OP this is a good topic to discuss with. There are lots of scammers accusation on scam section about casino holding up but some of them got newbie account or just created to tell the case which is literally the problem. Yeah we can help by sorting out advise to where to file complain or whom to contact but thats the best thing we can do atleast for those who seek help here in my opinion.

[yahoo62278]

So, if that’s their reason, how can the issue be resolved? Is there even a point in making a scam accusation if the casino can’t give a fully transparent answer?

We all know the rules about privacy because casinos are regulated and can be held accountable. So the question is, how can we help a complainant get justice and not allow casinos to abuse this situation?

I think askgamblers or casinoguru can be helpful if you report the case. Also you can file a lawsuit. But most gamblers are losing the lawsuits against the gambling sites. In most cases, the gambler do disobey the terms of service of the gambling site. Some of them will not read the terms of service while some want to make profit from cheating.

Some of the casinos will agree to abide by a mediators decision such as askgamblers or casino guru, others will not. I would suggest not playing at a casino that doesn't allow you to take your case to a mediator if an issue occurs like frozen funds or they call you a cheater for multiple reasons.

As far as a mediator on this forum goes, I would be willing to be on a panel and I know a few others that would also gladly volunteer. Issue is, people can be corrupted by money and that's not gonna go over so well if a casino bought a judgement or a person bought a judgement. If it were to become a thing, I would suggest the panel gets a fee from the winner of the judgement. Fee is the same for either party, winner or loser. I just don't see it happening.

Moving to the actual accusations in the scam section. A very high number of accusations are false. They are from users who are trying to pressure casinos into paying them hoping the casino doesn't want the attention and gives in. Most of them know they are multi accounting, cheating bonuses, bypassing limits or whatever. They just figure they'll keep breaking the rules until caught and raise hell here if so, what do they got to lose? Their money is already confiscated so it's worth the time for them to make a thread.

There are a few cases that are legit and those cases usually get resolved fairly quick.

[Fiatless]

I've been reading a lot in the scam accusation threads where users complain that their money has been frozen and their accounts closed by casinos. Although most of these complaints are from newbies, which could make you think they are just trying to ruin the casino’s reputation

In regards to this, it's likely to be that most times these "Newbie" accounts we see making complaints may have been created after they got scammed by a casino, for the purpose of getting justice for their funds, and not literally that they intend to ruined a casino's reputation, especially those who usually provides enough proof for their scam cases.

Some high-ranking members create new accounts just to remain anonymous. They don't want to engage in gambling drama with their main accounts. However many of of these newbie account were basically created to attack or exploit casinos.

As far as a mediator on this forum goes, I would be willing to be on a panel and I know a few others that would also gladly volunteer. Issue is, people can be corrupted by money and that's not gonna go over so well if a casino bought a judgement or a person bought a judgement. If it were to become a thing, I would suggest the panel gets a fee from the winner of the judgement. Fee is the same for either party, winner or loser. I just don't see it happening.

I have usually visit the scam accusation board because its like going to a court. This forum has some of the best mediators that can give fair judgements. I saw a particular case where a casino agreed to pay a gambler a huge amount after the mediation of forum members. So, I support this opinion of having a panel that can deal with scam accusations.

[Russlenat]

As far as a mediator on this forum goes, I would be willing to be on a panel and I know a few others that would also gladly volunteer. Issue is, people can be corrupted by money and that's not gonna go over so well if a casino bought a judgement or a person bought a judgement. If it were to become a thing, I would suggest the panel gets a fee from the winner of the judgement. Fee is the same for either party, winner or loser. I just don't see it happening.

I'm glad you liked the idea, and honestly, in my personal judgment, I think you should be part of the panel. If it's okay with you to make this a reality, maybe you can create a thread regarding that request and use this thread as one of the references on how we came to that decision. I believe the reason why people post scam accusations on the forum is that they believe they can get help, so why should we direct them elsewhere for mediation? I know this is new, but maybe this calls for a need to help not only with gambling sites but also gamblers, since we’ll have a panel to investigate scam accusations.

As for the fee, that could work since nothing is free. You could set a fee, and if the amount involved is large enough, people would probably prefer to pay rather than lose their money to a scam.

There are a few cases that are legit and those cases usually get resolved fairly quick.

But what about the legit cases that remain unresolved because the casino simply claims the user violated the TOS, but they cannot disclose the details due to privacy? These are the people we're trying to protect from scam casinos.

[lovesmayfamilis]

For me, everything is simple. Some casinos have proven themselves over time and have a good reputation. Such a casino will always pay out the winnings to the winner. If there is an accusation, then very often the player himself is to blame for mistakenly formulating the casino rules for himself. There have been many accusations when players made mistakes but did not admit them, although their problems should not worry the casino in any way. There are two options. Either you play honestly in an honest casino with good reviews, or you try all the new casinos and risk your money. I have read a lot about ways to identify players, and I do not think that a casino should reveal its secrets, the equipment for which is quite expensive. In any case, starting a game in a casino, a person agrees that he can lose... and if he is dishonest, he loses even if he wins. I will always be more on the side of the casino.

[YOSHIE]

We all know the rules about privacy because casinos are regulated and can be held accountable. So the question is, how can we help a complainant get justice and not allow casinos to abuse this situation?

I once visited an isolated village, the people there once told me.
"If you want to survive the fire of hell, stay away from gambling, someone who wants to sink to the bottom of hell gamble, you will see how bad life in hell is."

Those words have a deep meaning for me, regarding gambling, I think if we can't bear the risk of the heat of hell fire/gambling, then don't jump too deep.

Back to the topic, I often see complaints from those who gamble for various reasons, of course about losing their money, logically I think they lost up to $100k, isn't that a lot of money, This seems strange, the average person who complains of a loss is almost hundreds of dollars, if you look at the gambling site's accusations and the date of their loss, no one bets on a particular game in that amount, Is that a joke, what's strange is that most of those who come complain that they are beginners, whether it's a competitive strategy, maybe, because there are so many casinos here that are operating, so competing is also not healthy and bringing each other down, Almost all of the 100 casinos operating here are accused, the accusations are no less amusing when we see them.

I think the casino is responsible, if there is a complaint they will respond well and resolve it, otherwise if there are accusations of nonsense of course they will ignore it, in the case of these accusations, you don't know who to blame, whether they are cheating players or cheating casinos, the point is, gamble as much as you can, if you can't afford to lose, don't gamble.

[KingsDen]

When such a situation arises, the greater odds is always on the gambler to prove their case without doubts. Providing your case doesn't stop in dropping of mere screenshots. Infact, anytime you transact with any casino, keep records and bear it in mind that the case can come public anytime.

The community has experienced gamblers and believe me that with only the text or evidence on the op, a good gambler should be able to predict who is lying.

Another thing that casinos do is that when they discover that they are dealing with a kind of noob without experience, they'll try hard to exploit the situation. But even if they are successful once, the community will definitely keep an eye on them.

[Smartvirus]

It is indeed true that these things happens,
Where gamblers gets their account closed for undisclosed reasons and are left to wonder what the case might be. In some cases, you would find the gambler to be given a hint and that’s it. No forward in the case and you don’t get a heading.

Eventually, there are two sides to this story and the casino has always got the upper hand.
You really can’t blame them for not revealing the techniques they use in identifying a fault in the way a gambler approaches games on their system as, it would even aid the gambler in being evasive in the future and they can’t really trust the gambler not to spill but, I feel there is always a justifiable truth in these cases when it comes up.

[Russlenat]

I think the casino is responsible, if there is a complaint they will respond well and resolve it, otherwise if there are accusations of nonsense of course they will ignore it, in the case of these accusations, you don't know who to blame, whether they are cheating players or cheating casinos, the point is, gamble as much as you can, if you can't afford to lose, don't gamble.

This concern is only for legitimate accusations where the person making the complaint has attached valid proof. As for the validity of the proof, we can determine that, but we still need a reply from the casino to get their side. If they don’t respond, we can assume the complaint has merit. Regardless of the amount involved, as long as there are valid supporting documents or evidence proving the scam, it should be taken seriously. What’s the point of having a representative in the forum if they don’t address the accusations? This would only prove their poor customer support and show they don’t care about their reputation.

If they are marketing in the forum, thinking they can attract a large market due to the many members here, they should also be aware of how crucial it is to maintain their reputation.

Another thing that casinos do is that when they discover that they are dealing with a kind of noob without experience, they'll try hard to exploit the situation. But even if they are successful once, the community will definitely keep an eye on them.

This is exactly what we should avoid- - exploiting gamblers. The contribution of casinos to the forum has been significant, and more are joining because they see the market opportunity. However, if we look at the other side, the dark side, there are casinos that abuse this, and if no action is taken, it could damage the reputation of our forum. Sometimes, we tend to focus on the reputation of the casino or the gambler rather than looking at the actual evidence. That's why we need to be objective, not subjective, in handling these situations.

You really can’t blame them for not revealing the techniques they use in identifying a fault in the way a gambler approaches games on their system as, it would even aid the gambler in being evasive in the future and they can’t really trust the gambler not to spill but,

You're right. No one would willingly expose their technology if it risks being abused. As a community, we should take steps to ensure that the scam accusation section serves its intended purpose. One suggestion, as mentioned in the earlier comments, is to establish a mediator or panel of members within the forum to handle these accusations. Having a mediator with multiple trusted members could help address issues more fairly and effectively.

[Learn Bitcoin]

So, if that’s their reason, how can the issue be resolved? Is there even a point in making a scam accusation if the casino can’t give a fully transparent answer?

We all know the rules about privacy because casinos are regulated and can be held accountable. So the question is, how can we help a complainant get justice and not allow casinos to abuse this situation?

Casinos do not want to reveal this information to the public because more people will take the chance to abuse the casino. In this case, the victim should contact the mediators like a casino guru. There are some reputed mediator services like asking gamblers whee casinos disclose some information with the mediator representative privately, and they analyze that information and decide who the victim is.

When it comes to players, in most cases, we hear a one-sided story, and unfortunately, the accuser does not always write the whole story. They only write that part which will make him look like he is the victim. I know there are real players who got scammed by the shady casinos. It's hard to judge without proofs.

[aioc]

But what about the legit cases that remain unresolved because the casino simply claims the user violated the TOS, but they cannot disclose the details due to privacy? These are the people we're trying to protect from scam casinos.

That will leave bad impressions to their players and potential gamblers who are thinking of playing in their casino,
reputation is very important; if they ignore it, then they will suffer in the long run its good that we can tag casinos that failed to address accusations here.
And this makes playing on casinos with announcements here worth it because they have some sort of protection or a place they can address their grievances.

[m2017]

Although most of these complaints are from newbies

This may create the impression of creating malicious and slanderous messages, but also, a gambler doesn't have to have a high-ranking account on the forum just to have the "right to vote" to say something against the casino.

I suppose people create accounts (newbie) with corresponding complaints about the casino as problems with the casino arise, and before that, there is no need for them to do this.

So, if that’s their reason, how can the issue be resolved? Is there even a point in making a scam accusation if the casino can’t give a fully transparent answer?

The accusations brought against the casino can only make sense if the user of the casino services has lost money and is trying to get it back (which is hardly possible, casinos most often block the deposit according to the terms of the user agreement, of course, if it is not a 100% scam casino).

We all know the rules about privacy because casinos are regulated and can be held accountable. So the question is, how can we help a complainant get justice and not allow casinos to abuse this situation?

Can we help in this situation with anything? Do we have any leverage over the casino? In my opinion, no. Your deposit is in someone else's hands - you are not the master of the situation. Without full information (in addition to that of the casino), but only the statements of individual "victims" of the casino, we are practically unarmed and cannot be objective in our assessment.

Casinos will do their utmost to refer to confidentiality provisions and other rules and agreements in order not to disclose information that can be used against them (if there are facts of abuse of position).