[an offer is not actual any more] Initial Financing for Mining Farm Project

[Vod]

How do you want me to provide proof you will not scam?

I only have my experience and common sense.

 

[Etranger]

How do you want me to provide proof you will not scam?

I only have my experience and common sense.

 

At last, a comment from your side where we can really discuss something and not just throw accusations at each other.

So, let’s discuss.

Firstly, if I were in the place of the one being offered the project, I would want to know its essence and the reasoning of the one proposing it.

This is exactly how we as a team communicate with potential investors in person here in Kyiv, preemptively learning who our potential investor is. For example, at our last meeting, it was the owner of a cafe chain in Kyiv, and at the previous one, it was a person looking to diversify his capital into the digital sphere (our project or, for instance, directly purchasing BTC) and build another enterprise for the production of drones.

Since this forum is inherently anonymous (perhaps someone knows you in real life, but that doesn’t mean the general rule should be violated), I write based on the principles of anonymity on this forum. However, in the first message of this thread, I mentioned that we are ready to communicate privately with a more in-depth dive into the data we can provide.

According to Karl Popper, any thesis is scientific if it allows for the possibility of its own refutation.
I believe this thesis is generally useful for analyzing any phenomenon in the modern world of information.

Common sense is also formed based on a methodology of thoughts, which is why I suggest we take a look at the points I’ve outlined above regarding where the 40,000,000 are going, especially the points about the allocation of the 8,000,000 USD, so that you can understand that the overall construction of the farm is quite complex and costly both from the technical equipment side and from the legal and energy side.

I believe that, as of now, you and me don’t owe each other anything (we don’t have any financial obligations between us), so instead of accusations, we can better discuss some aspects of the project in general and not turn this into another thread where everything devolves into ad hominem discussions.

I’ve provided general information, and we can discuss it here in this thread. I suggest you familiarize yourself with what’s written above about the farm’s operation and ask the questions that interest you.

Our team currently has an NDA agreement signed with some counter-parties, so I immediately note that disclosing the location would be a violation of this agreement.

However, questions about the project are open for discussion

[Vod]

Again, provide proof you will not scam.   Words are not proof.

I have nothing further to contribute - if you feel you are winning people over with your ambiguous promises, please continue.  I have left negative trust to warn others who may think the internet is honest. 

[Etranger]

Again, provide proof you will not scam.   Words are not proof.

I have nothing further to contribute - if you feel you are winning people over with your ambiguous promises, please continue.  I have left negative trust to warn others who may think the internet is honest. 

You know, the burden of proof that someone is deceiving, lies with the one who is accusing the person of it. As far as I know, in the civilized world, there is such a thing as the presumption of innocence. First, one must prove that a person is guilty of something because false accusations entail responsibility.

Despite all this, I will meet you halfway. What kind of evidence, in your opinion, should be provided? Can you give examples at least? Because I can present various facts, but they still won’t satisfy you. When you speak of evidence, you must have something in mind. It would be good to voice this to add some specifics, rather than just being vague, leaving the accused person to fumble around, trying to guess what unspoken points you're referring to.

[Vod]

What kind of evidence, in your opinion, should be provided? Can you give examples at least?

Go to a bank and talk to them.  They will tell you the proof you need.  When they offer you a loan, turn it down due to their high interest rates.  You'll then have enough proof to get a loan here!

I'm not sure why you think bitcoin is different than fiat currency.

[Etranger]

Go to a bank and talk to them.  They will tell you the proof you need.  When they offer you a loan....

Is here anyone from post-Soviet countries who could join the discussion and finally explain why no Ukrainian bank would currently offer a loan in such an amount in foreign currency, let alone provide any documents that would help understand what’s going on in Vod's mind and what he will consider sufficient proof?

Again, as always, no direct answer to the question. Maybe you take me for a fool, and that’s your acceptable line of behavior. I am used to communication being based on principles where questions are given clear answers, or the questions are clarified so that it’s possible to provide such an answer. You do neither.

You neither understand nor try to understand the realities I live in (although I’ve clearly outlined why I’m bringing this proposal to the forum, detailed the steps I took before turning to the forum, and also explained why they didn’t work). Yet, you actively continue to make unfounded assumptions. What made you decide that I think this way?

I'm not sure why you think bitcoin is different than fiat currency.

Don’t present this as a non-disputed statement. If you were genuinely interested in understanding how I think, you’d ask questions rather than attribute to me things that have nothing to do with me .

From all your comments, I’ve only become convinced of one thing: the red tag you slapped on me without any justification says more about you than about me. If some users are fine with blind trust in dubious authorities, let them pay attention to it. But for those who refuse to base their judgments on assumptions, guesses, and experience (why you present this as an argument, I still don’t understand — everyone here has experiences that others may know nothing about, so what? Is vague experience now a sufficient reason not to justify one’s claims?), I suggest reading the entire thread and forming their own opinion.

[DrBeer]

You are 100% going to scam - you've stated as such already.  You won't even try hard as you don't need the project to succeed. 

In the event of a successful launch of the project...

So you make a Ukrainian corporation, then spend all your money on trips for members of your team not in Ukraine, after saying all your team members are in Ukraine.     If your investor has a legal stand (good luck - ukraine isn't in nato for a reason), your defence is simple - you spent the money as you said you would (hey, those limos out there aren't free) and things just didn't work out.  You're very sorry, but thank goodness you didn't tie your name to it - you can try again. 

If you are serious about building a mining farm, tell us who you are and your education/experience.  Then we can help you reduce your setup expenses from $150,000 by 80% or more.  We can give you advice, help you meet with investors without expensive caviar meetings, etc.   But please don't continue asking for any irreversible currency unless you are willing to identify yourself, provide properal collateral (if it is your last house yes we take it) or provide more than just words.

It would be interesting, however, to hear your arguments, logical, about why you think the project is dishonest? Constant repetition of words unsupported by anything, does not give you weight and importance

And again, for an educated person, there should be an understanding between fraud and risks. About risks - yes you can talk and you should, it is a subtle topic of any investment. Since all investment projects have risks. Talking about fraud - makes sense if only you have arguments and not empty shaking of the air, regular repetition of the same phrases. “Fraud” could be attributed to the project if they were collecting money anonymously, in crypto, without any plans for an official relationship.  But here people have a project, there is a calculation, there are open plans .... So once again I repeat - give your logical arguments, or don't make posts
And try to prove that you are not a government official who is trying to hinder the development of the crypto market and technology in general, very much like that.... Or at least - you are not a very successful competitor who is not doing very well and the next competitor will simply destroy your business, so you are trying to vilify him


To the author of the topic - personally, I am interested in the calculation of the company's profit, taking into account the complexity of the network and the real income at the declared capacity of mining equipment,

[Smartprofit]

I am a third party in this situation. I do not live in Ukraine and I can not say anything about the project presented by Etranger (and I will not judge how attractive this project is for investment - I do not know).

However, I do not think that Etranger is a scammer (perhaps she is just a naive girl who tries to participate in various offline and online activities). As far as I know, she is a young Ukrainian, an active member of the Bitcointalk forum. She posts a lot on the Bitcointalk and Altcoinstalks forums, participates in subscription campaigns, is actively engaged in trading. I can not say anything bad about her (only good). In my opinion, she does not deserve a negative (red) tag in the trust.

If the respected user of the Vod forum listens to my request (we are not personally acquainted, but I read that you are a very authoritative user of the forum), then maybe he is ready to change his decision (for example, change the tag to neutral or remove it altogether)? Thanks in advance.

[Etranger]

You are 100% going to scam - you've stated as such already.  You won't even try hard as you don't need the project to succeed. 

In the event of a successful launch of the project...

So you make a Ukrainian corporation, then spend all your money on trips for members of your team not in Ukraine, after saying all your team members are in Ukraine.     If your investor has a legal stand (good luck - ukraine isn't in nato for a reason), your defence is simple - you spent the money as you said you would (hey, those limos out there aren't free) and things just didn't work out.  You're very sorry, but thank goodness you didn't tie your name to it - you can try again. 

If you are serious about building a mining farm, tell us who you are and your education/experience.  Then we can help you reduce your setup expenses from $150,000 by 80% or more.  We can give you advice, help you meet with investors without expensive caviar meetings, etc.   But please don't continue asking for any irreversible currency unless you are willing to identify yourself, provide properal collateral (if it is your last house yes we take it) or provide more than just words.

It would be interesting, however, to hear your arguments, logical, about why you think the project is dishonest? Constant repetition of words unsupported by anything, does not give you weight and importance

And again, for an educated person, there should be an understanding between fraud and risks. About risks - yes you can talk and you should, it is a subtle topic of any investment. Since all investment projects have risks. Talking about fraud - makes sense if only you have arguments and not empty shaking of the air, regular repetition of the same phrases. “Fraud” could be attributed to the project if they were collecting money anonymously, in crypto, without any plans for an official relationship.  But here people have a project, there is a calculation, there are open plans .... So once again I repeat - give your logical arguments, or don't make posts
And try to prove that you are not a government official who is trying to hinder the development of the crypto market and technology in general, very much like that.... Or at least - you are not a very successful competitor who is not doing very well and the next competitor will simply destroy your business, so you are trying to vilify him


To the author of the topic - personally, I am interested in the calculation of the company's profit, taking into account the complexity of the network and the real income at the declared capacity of mining equipment,

DrBeer, you are definitely the first one who really has shown the true interest in this project, and not only the desire to criticise without even diving into the details. I am open to share our calculations with you and like I mentioned several times already in this thread, I will do this in private, because it is not such kind of information you disclose for everyone, especially for those who do all they can to demonstrate they don’t need it to draw their conclusions.

When you get acquainted with project presentation, our forecast and numbers, I will kindly ask you to confirm here in the thread that you have really seen all of this documents, just to eliminate the attempts for someone’s unfounded assumptions in the scam.

It's a pleasure to deal with you. You seem like the type of person who first understands the issue, rather than thinking that he already has ready-made answers and judgments for everything.

[Vod]

From all your comments, I’ve only become convinced of one thing: the red tag you slapped on me without any justification says more about you than about me.

I would hope so!  I'm trying to help with great advice, as my reputation proves, even if you so quickly forgot my written warning about asking for large non-collateral loans.

I may want to start up a mining farm too.   My budget will be 20% less than yours (just numbers based on nothing) and I'll offer a better return.  Why would anyone be stupid enough to invest in yours?

Don't try and talk me out of it - I'll ignore you and insult you but I won't take any of your valuable advice.

My first step should be any lending agency, to see what proof they require.  You should work on proving you know how to run a business.  :0

[DrBeer]

From all your comments, I’ve only become convinced of one thing: the red tag you slapped on me without any justification says more about you than about me.

I would hope so!  I'm trying to help with great advice, as my reputation proves, even if you so quickly forgot my written warning about asking for large non-collateral loans.

I may want to start up a mining farm too.   My budget will be 20% less than yours (just numbers based on nothing) and I'll offer a better return.  Why would anyone be stupid enough to invest in yours?

Don't try and talk me out of it - I'll ignore you and insult you but I won't take any of your valuable advice.

My first step should be any lending agency, to see what proof they require.  You should work on proving you know how to run a business.  :0

Let's go the other way, which will be more productive - provide data, what are the requirements of credit agencies, as well as what conditions they offer for similar projects, in YOUR COUNTRY. For what? We will just all evaluate how much the topic of attracting loans from banks and credit agencies is acceptable in this case ?
The problem is that credit conditions are very different from country to country. In this case, as practice shows - the search and attraction of investors for all sorts of projects, is not any “illegal” or “suspicious” method.
For example, I am a citizen of Ukraine, I live in Ukraine, and I am an investor in some projects, including cryptocurrency. And I know that the peculiarities of the situation in the country, as well as the conditions of the banking/credit sector, are not very acceptable for many projects. That's why private investors are often attracted in this way.

PS And yes, it is good manners - if you accuse in something - give arguments. No arguments - then write “it seems to me, although I can't prove or give any meaningful arguments, that this could be a dishonest project”

[jokers10]

I have left negative trust to warn others who may think the internet is honest. 

Who others do you want to warn in this case? A person who is ready to invest 150 thousand in some project, but does not use the support of his lawyer and does not study all the circumstances of the business plan to a sufficient extent, is unlikely to have such capital for investment. And the rest, in principle, do not face any risk due to such an offer. The negative tag in this case seems excessive and something personal. What specific risk and for whom do you see from this offer? Are there any inexperienced investors on the forum ready to send 150 thousand to a stranger on their word of honor?

I will not encourage anyone to participate in this project, I myself do not find it interesting enough, but at the same time I believe that a potential investor should certainly take care of the issue of protecting his investments on his own and study all issues seriously enough, including issues of legal protection of his investments. Your warnings in words can have some sense and your tag has nothing correlating with that.

[Vod]

I have left negative trust to warn others who may think the internet is honest. 

Who others do you want to warn in this case?

You are right - it's not like he is trying to scam $20.   He is certainly not CEO material, and no one looking to increase their wealth would support this scam. 

One can make a new account, spend an hour making a budget and post here as many times as they need - having an instant advantage over this guy.   This is why I call it a scam - it took no time or talent; it's just words.  I do not want Project Development to turn into a spam board like this and I have spent years sending reports to the old moderator.

I'll remove that negative trust as I feel it dilutes the rest.   The next guy might come on here asking fir $450,000!   I have to concentrate on the scams that have a possibility of succeeding.

[Etranger]

Once again, I am open to questions and continuing the discussion. I started this topic to answer the questions that are not confidential openly and publicly; and for those that are private, I am ready to discuss them through personal communication. I understand that to spark enough interest for personal communication, it is necessary to first provide some information, which is why I have written all my posts in a very detailed manner. Thank you to those who have joined the discussion constructively and shown respect and interest.

My goal in this topic is not only to attract funds for the project but also to discuss the details of my proposal in order to make it more advantageous and stronger. I hope that more people will join us and share constructive thoughts.

[examplens]

Once again, I am open to questions and continuing the discussion. I started this topic to answer the questions that are not confidential openly and publicly; and for those that are private, I am ready to discuss them through personal communication.

Let's go back to the project we are talking about here.
As far as I understand, the initial figure you are asking from investors is $150k. What exactly is that money for?
After that, and how much money is needed later until the business is set up to be functional?
I guess it's not all secret and you can share some of the details.

[Etranger]

I guess it's not all secret and you can share some of the details.

I can, and as a matter of a fact, I already did.

What exactly is that money for?

These money will be used for the following tasks:

What will these funds be used for?
•      Creation of a company whose purpose is managing the crypto farm and investment activities (October-November)
•      Creation of company's identity (November-January)
•   Hiring a specialist or company as a legal advisor (October)
•   Legal support for the creation and operation of the company (October-November)
•   Business trips for that members of our team who are currently not in Ukraine to countries where the crypto farm locations are situated (October-January)
•   Business meetings with investment funds and private investors (October-January)
•   Attending leading crypto conferences (October-January)
•   Legal and technical inspections of the locations (November-January)
•   Payment for services provided by contractors:
        1.   Consultations with electricity suppliers
        2.   Consultations and development of the technical specifications for the crypto farm location
        3.   Brokerage services for location search (engagement fee)
        4.   Consultations on spot electricity trading and the FRR market
        5.   Development of a Heat Recapture Technology plan (possibility of selling the heat)
        6.   Consultations and work with government representatives regarding permits for the crypto farm's operations

For example, now members of our team who do not currently live in Ukraine are skipping the conference in Amsterdam, where our counterparties from USA will be present and with whom we were supposed to meet in person for establishing further collaboration.

 

After that, and how much money is needed later until the business is set up to be functional?

The whole crypto farm project requires $40,000,000. However, these funds are not directly connected to the first-stage investment. Even if we won't succeed in securing money for the main investment, we will pay $150,000 + 15% back from our own pocket. I mean, that paying back the initial investment of $150,000 + 15% doesn't depend on the next investment stage.

[Vod]

What exactly is that money for?

I guess you need to ask the right question.  

OP - how much money is needed for each task?

Even if we won't succeed in securing money for the main investment, we will pay $150,000 + 15% back from our own pocket. I mean, that paying back the initial investment of $150,000 + 15% doesn't depend on the next investment stage.

OK, that will help with the investors!   How can you prove you have the funds to do so?

[DireWolfM14]

Even if we won't succeed in securing money for the main investment, we will pay $150,000 + 15% back from our own pocket. I mean, that paying back the initial investment of $150,000 + 15% doesn't depend on the next investment stage.

If you are able to come up with $150k to pay back the initial loan irrespective of future funding, why bother with the loan in the first place?  If your proposal fails to obtain the $40 million you need, you will be out $150k, not $172,500.  Why risk putting yourself in the hole for another $22,500?

[Etranger]

OP - how much money is needed for each task?

•      Creation of a company whose purpose is managing the crypto farm and investment activities – $15,000
•      Creation of company's identity – $20,000 (part of presentation of a company)
•   Hiring a specialist or company as a legal advisor – $18,000 ($1,500 per month)
•   Legal support for the creation and operation of the company – $10,000 (payment which is required for legal actions on the company`s creation stage)
•   Business trips for that members of our team who are currently not in Ukraine to countries where the crypto farm locations are situated – $8,000 (2 members, $4,000 for each. Countries: Switzerland, Norway and Finland)
•   Business meetings with investment funds and private investors - $6,000 (2 members, $3,000 for each. This category includes tickets, accomodation and local transportation, not cavier in reastaurants. Note that there are 4 trips planning)
•   Attending leading crypto conferences - $4,000
•   Legal and technical inspections of the locations (also due dilligence included) – $35,000-40,000
•   Payment for services provided by contractors:
        1.   Consultations with electricity suppliers - $2,500
        2.   Consultations and development of the technical specifications for the crypto farm location - $3,500
        3.   Brokerage services for location search (engagement fee) - $10,000 (to the particular broker,  location presented by whom will be chosen)
        4.   Consultations on spot electricity trading and the FRR market  - $4,000
        5.   Development of a Heat Recapture Technology plan (possibility of selling the heat) - $5,000 (individual plan)
        6.   Consultations and work with government representatives regarding permits for the crypto farm's operations - $4,000

The clarification of these numbers are available for those who will engage in a private conversation with us, as long as it is NDA information.

How can you prove you have the funds to do so?

The issue of collateral, as well as our ability to return the investment along with the total interest, is also discussed personally. PS. I have never said that there is no collateral. I only stated that it is not for a public declaration.

If you are able to come up with $150k to pay back the initial loan irrespective of future funding, why bother with the loan in the first place?  If your proposal fails to obtain the $40 million you need, you will be out $150k, not $172,500.  Why risk putting yourself in the hole for another $22,500?

Because we need the funds now. Our personal funds will be available only in mid-July. By that time, it can be late to build a farm, because we will lose a lot of time, moreover, bull oriented time. Even if we build it as fast as it could be, the farm will start operating no early than October of the next year. We are aiming to launch it in February 2025, therefore we will have 9 month more for generating bitcoin.

[DireWolfM14]

OP - how much money is needed for each task?

•      Creation of a company whose purpose is managing the crypto farm and investment activities – $15,000
•      Creation of company's identity – $20,000 (part of presentation of a company)
•   Hiring a specialist or company as a legal advisor – $18,000 ($1,500 per month)
•   Legal support for the creation and operation of the company – $10,000 (payment which is required for legal actions on the company`s creation stage)

What the letteral fuck?

That's $63k for the same thing just worded differently.  North Dakota is among the states with the cheapest electricity in US, it costs $135 to register an LLC in North Dakota.  The forms are so simple, even I could do it without legal help.  There, I just saved you $62,865.

•   Business trips for that members of our team who are currently not in Ukraine to countries where the crypto farm locations are situated – $8,000 (2 members, $4,000 for each. Countries: Switzerland, Norway and Finland)
•   Business meetings with investment funds and private investors - $6,000 (2 members, $3,000 for each. This category includes tickets, accomodation and local transportation, not cavier in reastaurants. Note that there are 4 trips planning)
•   Attending leading crypto conferences - $4,000

$20k for boondoggles, got it.  Ever heard of Zoom?  And what exactly is attending "leading crypto conferences" going to do for you?  You already know you want to mine bitcoin.  Do you think you'll be the only one at these conferences looking to lure investors?  Or maybe you think your winning personality and sexy legs will cause you to stand out from the other winning personalities and sexy legs?

•   Legal and technical inspections of the locations (also due dilligence included) – $35,000-40,000

What due diligence?  Mining bitcoin isn't illegal.  As long as you pay for the electricity you consume, you'll stay out of legal trouble.

•   Payment for services provided by contractors:
        1.   Consultations with electricity suppliers - $2,500
        2.   Consultations and development of the technical specifications for the crypto farm location - $3,500
        3.   Brokerage services for location search (engagement fee) - $10,000 (to the particular broker,  location presented by whom will be chosen)
        4.   Consultations on spot electricity trading and the FRR market  - $4,000
        5.   Development of a Heat Recapture Technology plan (possibility of selling the heat) - $5,000 (individual plan)
        6.   Consultations and work with government representatives regarding permits for the crypto farm's operations - $4,000

1. Free
2. Shelving from Home Depot
3. I already told you; North Dakota (that'll be $10k, please)
4. I won't repeat myself (but that's another $4k, please)
5. Install an air conditioner (that's another $5k you owe me)
6. Local business licenses cost less than $20.

The clarification of these numbers are available for those who will engage in a private conversation with us, as long as it is NDA information.

No need for a private conversation, I just buggered your entire proposal.  If this isn't a scam, it's the stupidest attempt at creating a startup that I've ever heard of.  $150k wasted on useless bullshit.  It was one thing when I thought you were going spend the $150k on miners and infrastructure, but this is completely bat-shit crazy.  You haven't even reaserched the costs of these things you're talking about, and that's plain to see now.  You're literally just making shit up and plugging a number next to it.

If you are able to come up with $150k to pay back the initial loan irrespective of future funding, why bother with the loan in the first place?  If your proposal fails to obtain the $40 million you need, you will be out $150k, not $172,500.  Why risk putting yourself in the hole for another $22,500?

Because we need the funds now. Our personal funds will be available only in mid-July. By that time, it can be late to build a farm, because we will lose a lot of time, moreover, bull oriented time. Even if we build it as fast as it could be, the farm will start operating no early than October of the next year. We are aiming to launch it in February 2025, therefore we will have 9 month more for generating bitcoin.

Oh, you need funds NOW!  Like bitcoin is going away in 9 months time?  Believe me, if you're grandiose plans can't handle an unexpected delay of 9 months, you've got bigger problems than not getting the $150k loan (which you're not.)  So, if I were you, start planning on spending your own money.  Please keep me informed on your progress.