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Author Topic: I Think I Got Screwed out of 5 BTC  (Read 6892 times)
the joint
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December 22, 2011, 02:10:54 AM
 #121

Not Bruce - just give me 10 BTC and I will leave this thread Smiley

I'm happy for you that you're not Bruce lol.

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December 22, 2011, 02:19:41 AM
 #122

Not Bruce - just give me 10 BTC and I will leave this thread Smiley

I'm happy for you that you're not Bruce lol.
Me too!  BTW he is no relation either!

Our family was terrorized by Homeland Security.  Read all about it here:  http://www.jmwagner.com/ and http://www.burtw.com/  Any donations to help us recover from the $300,000 in legal fees and forced donations to the Federal Asset Forfeiture slush fund are greatly appreciated!
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December 22, 2011, 02:26:19 AM
 #123

Just re-use this thread, like this:

This one time, this guy told me he would give me 10 BTC, and then he didn't, waaa, waaa.  Life is so unfair.  Please give me the 10 BTC that guy totally promised he would send me.  He OWES me.  I will argue until the cows come home that he owes me because he said he would give it to me (waaaa, waaaa).

Bruce, seriously, you're the absolute last person that should be giving me a lesson in ethics.  I need to go wash my hands now.

You seem to be confused about who is mocking you...bwagner is not Bruce, fella.

You seem to be confused and think I'm actually offended by anybody on this forum that "mocks" me regarding this situation.

I could be threatened with being banned for life from Bitcointalk, and it won't change my position.

I'm very comfortable and happy with my stance.  Just because 50 some-odd people disagree doesn't mean any one of them is correct. 

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December 22, 2011, 02:30:29 AM
 #124

Just re-use this thread, like this:

This one time, this guy told me he would give me 10 BTC, and then he didn't, waaa, waaa.  Life is so unfair.  Please give me the 10 BTC that guy totally promised he would send me.  He OWES me.  I will argue until the cows come home that he owes me because he said he would give it to me (waaaa, waaaa).

Bruce, seriously, you're the absolute last person that should be giving me a lesson in ethics.  I need to go wash my hands now.

You seem to be confused about who is mocking you...bwagner is not Bruce, fella.

You seem to be confused and think I'm actually offended by anybody on this forum that "mocks" me regarding this situation.

I could be threatened with being banned for life from Bitcointalk, and it won't change my position.

I'm very comfortable and happy with my stance.  Just because 50 some-odd people disagree doesn't mean any one of them is correct. 

You know what you sound like...a typical american ultra-entitled college kid.

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December 22, 2011, 02:35:40 AM
 #125

Just re-use this thread, like this:

This one time, this guy told me he would give me 10 BTC, and then he didn't, waaa, waaa.  Life is so unfair.  Please give me the 10 BTC that guy totally promised he would send me.  He OWES me.  I will argue until the cows come home that he owes me because he said he would give it to me (waaaa, waaaa).

Bruce, seriously, you're the absolute last person that should be giving me a lesson in ethics.  I need to go wash my hands now.

You seem to be confused about who is mocking you...bwagner is not Bruce, fella.

You seem to be confused and think I'm actually offended by anybody on this forum that "mocks" me regarding this situation.

I could be threatened with being banned for life from Bitcointalk, and it won't change my position.

I'm very comfortable and happy with my stance.  Just because 50 some-odd people disagree doesn't mean any one of them is correct.  

You know what you sound like...a typical american ultra-entitled college kid.

You know what you sound like?

Someone who throws out cliche garbage because it sounds good while thinking to yourself, "Ooooo, I got him that time...I hit him with cultural insensitivity."  Please, I do social work and the majority of my clients are minority clients, and I've been praised by the clients themselves for my cultural sensitivity, most notably my ability to listen and not judge.  

You don't know jack.  Quit being upset because I was graciously given 7 BTC by people who either sympathized or agreed with me.   Two can play this faulty assumption game.  

Edit:  Did you know that those who spend more time using online forms of communication are more likely to extract information or emotions from a conversation that are actually nonexistant?  Language is important, and I recommend you pay more attention to what is actually said vs. finding ways to infer fallacious nonsense for the sole purpose of antagonizing me.

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December 22, 2011, 02:39:52 AM
 #126

Just because the world thinks I am wrong doesn't mean I am! You're all just jealous! I do what I want!

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December 22, 2011, 02:42:32 AM
 #127

2.)  It is equally ignorant/offensive to assume that someone should use GMT or UTC simply because x number of people believe it is the most-common point of reference.

While UTC is the only Universal Coordinated Time, it is true that there are numerous other possible and asinine assumptions one could have made. But either (1) you assumed without question that your own timezone rather than at least 24 other possibilities was the official definitive zone, or (2) you believed that there would be at least 24 different potential sets of rules subject to each individual player's location. Please, which delusion seduced you, or is there some third assumption?

I'm curious, since it was not specifically articulated: did you assume that $4 represented four US dollars?

Why is that? Because you live in the United States? What about Canadians? Could they have assumed Canadian dollars without question? Mexicans might have assumed four pesos, as they too use the $ sign. I'm sure our Australian, central American, New Zealand, Hong Kong, Singapore, and Taiwanese friends were equally baffled.

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December 22, 2011, 02:42:49 AM
 #128

Just because the world thinks I am wrong doesn't mean I am! You're all just jealous! I do what I want!

My name is RandyFolds!   I can shout nonsense!  I'm clearly right and clearly hilarious because more people side with me and are saying the same kinds of things I'm saying!  I have approval!  I knew that I must be smarter than I originally thought!

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December 22, 2011, 02:51:13 AM
 #129

I could give a rat's ass who agrees with me. The fact of the matter is that your whole sob-session is completely classless. I view it akin to a child throwing a fit in a Walmart toy section, except the child is an adult and the toy section is a bunch of people who don't give a fuck and are laughing at you.

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December 22, 2011, 02:56:02 AM
 #130

2.)  It is equally ignorant/offensive to assume that someone should use GMT or UTC simply because x number of people believe it is the most-common point of reference.

While UTC is the only Universally Coordinated Time, it is true that there are numerous other possible and asinine assumptions one could have made. But either (1) you assumed without question that your own timezone rather than at least 24 other possibilities was the official definitive zone, or (2) you believed that there would be at least 24 different potential sets of rules subject to each individual player's location. Please, which delusion seduced you, or is there some third assumption?

Tell me, since it was not specifically articulated: did you assume that $4 represented four US dollars?

Why is that? Because you live in the United States? What about Canadians? Could they have assumed Canadian dollars without question? Mexicans might have assumed four pesos, as they too use the $ sign. I'm sure our Australian, central American, New Zealand, Hong Kong, Singapore, and Taiwanese friends were equally baffled.

Please tell me why I, a U.S. citizen, who because of having ready internet access should be one of the most likely people to know what UTC means, had never even heard of UTC until this game?  What's more ridiculous is that people keep shrieking on about "UTC!  You should have assumed UTC!"  when the game itself didn't even assume UTC, even after the rule change.

In reponse to your point (1), actually, I assumed all time zones because I assumed that each guess was made according to whatever timezone the player uses.  This leads to addressing your 2nd point (2) because it means that there is only 1 set of rules.  A good rule structure both (1) distributes evenly to all players and (2) takes into account individual circumstance.  The laws of the universe certainly act this way (gravity and light, anyone?).  According to my assumption, each person makes a guess according to their individual timezone, but the forum itself serves as an objective reference point to determine who guessed first (you can simply view the order in which the guesses were posted).  So, in the event that any 2 people guessed correctly according to their time zone as was the case between me and Goat, all you have to do is see whose post appeared first in the thread.  That was me.  Hence I won.  I'm not even going to explain again why the rule change completely affected the statistical nature of the game, which is a separate issue.  In any case, neither of your 2 points represent any "delusion" that "seduced" me.

Yes, I assumed $4 represented 4 US dollars.  Didn't many people?  Isn't $ the symbol for the US dollar?   I didn't know $ was used to denote yen or some other currency.  

But, your point is good.  In fact, I'm sure many of the people who played the game assumed the same thing, but flamed me anyway for my assumption of local time zone (which is MUCH different from assuming US central time).

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December 22, 2011, 02:57:58 AM
 #131

I could give a rat's ass who agrees with me. The fact of the matter is that your whole sob-session is completely classless. I view it akin to a child throwing a fit in a Walmart toy section, except the child is an adult and the toy section is a bunch of people who don't give a fuck and are laughing at you.

Well, your class is certainly showing now, isn't it?

Don't feel bad for me.  I'm a very happy individual.

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December 22, 2011, 03:01:08 AM
 #132

I could give a rat's ass who agrees with me. The fact of the matter is that your whole sob-session is completely classless. I view it akin to a child throwing a fit in a Walmart toy section, except the child is an adult and the toy section is a bunch of people who don't give a fuck and are laughing at you.

Well, your class is certainly showing now, isn't it?

Don't feel bad for me.  I'm a very happy individual.


You must be confused. No sympathy was directed towards you...only contempt for your behavior. Plenty of men are happy to get black out drunk and beat their wives. Does that make it ok?

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December 22, 2011, 03:03:34 AM
 #133

I could give a rat's ass who agrees with me. The fact of the matter is that your whole sob-session is completely classless. I view it akin to a child throwing a fit in a Walmart toy section, except the child is an adult and the toy section is a bunch of people who don't give a fuck and are laughing at you.

Well, your class is certainly showing now, isn't it?

Don't feel bad for me.  I'm a very happy individual.


You must be confused. No sympathy was directed towards you...only contempt for your behavior. Plenty of men are happy to get black out drunk and beat their wives. Does that make it ok?

Actually several people came out and agreed with me and my position.

Not sure where the drunk wife beating thing comes into play.  Try again.

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December 22, 2011, 03:08:55 AM
 #134

I could give a rat's ass who agrees with me. The fact of the matter is that your whole sob-session is completely classless. I view it akin to a child throwing a fit in a Walmart toy section, except the child is an adult and the toy section is a bunch of people who don't give a fuck and are laughing at you.

Well, your class is certainly showing now, isn't it?

Don't feel bad for me.  I'm a very happy individual.


You must be confused. No sympathy was directed towards you...only contempt for your behavior. Plenty of men are happy to get black out drunk and beat their wives. Does that make it ok?

Actually several people came out and agreed with me and my position.

Not sure where the drunk wife beating thing comes into play.  Try again.

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December 22, 2011, 03:55:47 AM
 #135

I am pleased you took the time to answer my questions honestly.

Please tell me why I, a U.S. citizen, who because of having ready internet access should be one of the most likely people to know what UTC means, had never even heard of UTC until this game?

I suppose we can not assume that just because you are a student of higher education in one of the wealthiest and presumably educated nations in the world, that you are both worldly and educated. If you were not previously aware that there was a universal coordinated time, now you know.


What's more ridiculous is that people keep shrieking on about "UTC!  You should have assumed UTC!"  when the game itself didn't even assume UTC, even after the rule change.

Are you distinguishing GMT from UTC? For all practical purposes, they are the same. If the spike up to four US dollars had occurred during a rare leap second then perhaps this ambiguity could have been argued further, but the distinction between GMT and UTC is entirely irrelevant in your case.


I assumed all time zones because I assumed that each guess was made according to whatever timezone the player uses.

Was this assumption made at the time of your vote or after you determined you may have won? If the assumption was made at the time of the vote, did you not suspect there might be ambiguity and that it would be prudent to ask for a clarification?


there is only 1 set of rules.  A good rule structure both (1) distributes evenly to all players and (2) takes into account individual circumstance. The laws of the universe certainly act this way (gravity and light, anyone?).

So, there should be one set of rules, but those rules should also be relative to each player? Can you cite another game with similarly good rules? In Goat's universe, you did not win, but in your universe you did win, or are you suggesting that the rules of the game should have been as robust as those codified in Einstein's general theory of relativity?


According to my assumption, each person makes a guess according to their individual timezone

And you honestly believed that every player would have been queried for his individual timezone? I think this is the first point that is shocking to most everyone here. You truly believed this at the time of your vote?


I'm not even going to explain again why the rule change completely affected the statistical nature of the game, which is a separate issue.

No, I think most would agree that if the rules changed after you voted, that would be unfair.

I think we do question whether that change would have altered your vote at the time you made the vote, two weeks before the event. Had you known at the time of your vote that it would be roughly six hours in advance, would you have changed your vote (or your location)?

More importantly, we question that the rules changed at all, rather than simply being clarified several hours later.

While some might have assumed either UTC or Old_engineer's own local timezone, I doubt ANYONE but you assumed relative time.


In any case, neither of your 2 points represent any "delusion" that "seduced" me.

I agree. I believe your unique delusion conveniently seduced you after the fact.


Yes, I assumed $4 represented 4 US dollars.  Didn't many people?

Yes. Exactly. There are innumerable things that must be assumed in human discourse. We are also usually free to ask questions.


I didn't know $ was used to denote yen or some other currency.

The $ symbol does not denote yen, but it does denote many dollars, pesos, and other currencies used by dozens of countries around the world. Now you know.


my assumption of local time zone (which is MUCH different from assuming US central time).

I agree that numerous relative local time zones, rather than singularly assuming US central time is very different. You caught me making an assumption about your argument. It's very interesting. Fascinating. It would never have occurred to me that one could make this assumption. I'll keep that in mind. Thank you.

Yet your unusual assumptions do not trump the common assumptions of the majority nor the game creator. It's typically called 'the smell test'. And you failed.


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December 22, 2011, 05:21:20 AM
 #136

Quote
I am pleased you took the time to answer my questions honestly.

I am pleased you took the time to address me in the manner that you have.  In all honesty, this whole ordeal has been fun for me, not because I enjoy stirring up conflict, but because I truly do believe in what I am saying and it is fun to defend it.  



Quote
I suppose we can not assume that just because you are a student of higher education in one of the wealthiest and presumably educated nations in the world, that you are both worldly and educated. If you were not previously aware that there was a universal coordinated time, now you know.

I feel compelled to point out that linking "worldly" and "educated" to the application of GMT and UTC is a leap of reductionism.  But yes, I am now aware that it exists.


Quote
Are you distinguishing GMT from UTC? For all practical purposes, they are the same. If the spike up to four US dollars had occurred during a rare leap second then perhaps this ambiguity could have been argued further, but the distinction between GMT and UTC is entirely irrelevant in your case.

Now I know this too.  I have a feeling I will never forget after this.




Quote
Was this assumption made at the time of your vote or after you determined you may have won? If the assumption was made at the time of the vote, did you not suspect there might be ambiguity and that it would be prudent to ask for a clarification?

It was assumed at the time of the vote, and I assumed that the rules were set up such that it would be easy to discern whose vote was cast first and from what time zone each vote was cast.  I also assumed that the game-maker had put enough thought into the game such that the rules in the OP were the final ones to be used throughout the entire game.


Quote
So, there should be one set of rules, but those rules should also be relative to each player? Can you cite another game with similarly good rules? In Goat's universe, you did not win, but in your universe you did win, or are you suggesting that the rules of the game should have been as robust as those codified in Einstein's general theory of relativity?

Actually, you're close.  In the absence of a clarification, I chose to defunct to the rules of nature.  Universal syntax (laws/rules) are distributed evenly to all players but are played out relatively.  Gravity, light, the laws of thermodynamics...all of these things play out relatively.  I figured nature was a good enough game upon which to base my assumptions.  Actually, I try to use nature as a foundation for all of my assumptions and beliefs.  Upon what...or who...do you formulate your beliefs?


Quote
And you honestly believed that every player would have been queried for his individual timezone? I think this is the first point that is shocking to most everyone here. You truly believed this at the time of your vote?

No, I believe the rules of the game were such that, at most, a 2-way tie may result because the first-guesser-wins rule would automatically nullify any 2nd-guessing of a date.  So, you would only have to query 2 people.  You wouldn't be able to have people in different time zones guessing the same date.  Date overrides time zone.  Narrows it down quite a bit.

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No, I think most would agree that if the rules changed after you voted, that would be unfair.

I think they did, and I think it was.

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I think we do question whether that change would have altered your vote at the time you made the vote, two weeks before the event. Had you known at the time of your vote that it would be roughly six hours in advance, would you have changed your vote (or your location)?

I would likely not have chosen to alter my vote, but that's irrelevant.  If in fact I did have an opportunity to alter my vote (and apparently I did), then this is the reason why the game was statistically altered.  The simple opportunity to change my vote, in addition to the rule change and the first-guesser-wins rule, prohibited me from choosing the selected winning answer.  Goat guessed dec. 20th GMT.  Thus, I could not change my vote to dec. 20th GMT as it would have been instantly nullified.

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More importantly, we question that the rules changed at all, rather than simply being clarified several hours later.

See above.  In addition, the effects of the rule change have an impact on how the first-guesser-wins rule plays out.  After the rule change, it then became impossible to guess the same date according to different time zones.  So, for example, whereas before it would be possible to have 2 valid guesses on dec. 19th if the time zones were different, this was no longer possible after the rule change.

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While some might have assumed either UTC or Old_engineer's own local timezone, I doubt ANYONE but you assumed relative time.

Ok.  Never would have thought to assume OldEngineer's timezone.  That'd be like assuming US Central Time.

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I agree. I believe your unique delusion conveniently seduced you after the fact.

I wouldn't call it a delusion.  Delusions are distorted perceptions of reality, and, as I stated, I try to ground my beliefs and assumptions upon nature/reality.  "Seduced" after the fact is interesting, but I think it's a bit unfair to say.  You can't expect me to have rationed all of this out prior to guessing.  I made the assumptions that I did at the time, and "after the fact" is when I realized there was a problem and chose to defend my entry.




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Yes. Exactly. There are innumerable things that must be assumed in human discourse. We are also usually free to ask questions.

This reminds me of an article I read on concept extension.  


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The $ symbol does not denote yen, but it does denote many dollars, pesos, and other currencies used by dozens of countries around the world. Now you know.

Now I know.  Thank you.


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I agree that numerous relative local time zones, rather than singularly assuming US central time is very different. You caught me making an assumption about your argument. It's very interesting. Fascinating. It would never have occurred to me that one could make this assumption. I'll keep that in mind. Thank you.

You're welcome.  I don't think it's that hard after all the cultural relativism they beat into you in a social work curriculum.  

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Yet your unusual assumptions do not trump the common assumptions of the majority nor the game creator. It's typically called 'the smell test'. And you failed.

Never heard of "the smell test."  Maybe I failed it.  Still, the question remains, whose assumptions are most correct?  Wouldn't the most correct assumptions be deemed "correct" according to reality itself, and not mere pieces of it?  Yeah yeah, I know, OldEngineer is the judge.  And judge he did, albeit inaccurately.

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December 22, 2011, 06:51:30 AM
 #137

Actually, I try to use nature as a foundation for all of my assumptions and beliefs.  Upon what...or who...do you formulate your beliefs?

Every domain requires different tools. I've studied comp sci and physics, yet I apply few of their logical lessons to human interaction.



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I think we do question whether that change would have altered your vote at the time you made the vote, two weeks before the event. Had you known at the time of your vote that it would be roughly six hours in advance, would you have changed your vote (or your location)?

I would likely not have chosen to alter my vote, but that's irrelevant.  If in fact I did have an opportunity to alter my vote (and apparently I did), then this is the reason why the game was statistically altered.  The simple opportunity to change my vote, in addition to the rule change and the first-guesser-wins rule, prohibited me from choosing the selected winning answer.  Goat guessed dec. 20th GMT.  Thus, I could not change my vote to dec. 20th GMT as it would have been instantly nullified.

To clarify, because I do not think it is irrelevant for your own conscience, would you have voted 20 rather than 19 December at the time you originally made the vote if you had known at the time, two weeks before the event, that not relative but universal coordinated time would be applied?

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December 22, 2011, 07:08:48 AM
 #138

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Every domain requires different tools. I've studied comp sci and physics, yet I apply few of their logical lessons to human interaction.

Here's a link to that article on concept extension I was talking about.  http://megasociety.org/noesis/191.htm#Overextension

Edit:  Actually, I think there's a lot you can learn about human interaction from nature and other disciplines.  Any truth is made through ratio (the root word of rationale).  So, I find analogies in nature that are related to human interaction.  Take any example.  To demonstrate, I'll pick radioactivity.  In short, when radioactive isotopes decay, they essentially explode and release a ton of energy, sending protons and stuff shooting off into other atoms, in turn knocking protons and other stuff off of them.  Now, when an angered person releases a ton of energy, how might that affect the other people around him?  Another example may be atomic fission as related to people with dissociative mental disorders.  On a related note, I also think that if we find out more about dark energy and dark space matter we might also find out more about junk DNA and dark brain matter.

When the laws of reality distribute to everything in it, you can find these kind of relationships between anything.

The greek concept of syndiffeonesis (or difference-in-sameness) essentially states that any 2 relands 'x' and 'y' are always bound by a common syntax or rule/law.  So, even if you were to say 'x' is absolutely different from 'y,' they would still be similar in that they are included within the medium of absolute difference.  So, EVERY relationship is syndiffeonic.  This may help explain my position that a good game has rules that distribute evenly to all players but take into account relative circumstance.  'X' and 'Y,' though different, are still bound by the same rule, much like how different players in different time zones were bound by the posting constraints of the thread (e.g. the person whose post appears first in the thread is the objective first poster).


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To clarify, because I do not think it is irrelevant, would you have voted 20 rather than 19 December at the time you originally made the vote if you had known at the time, two weeks before the event, that not relative but universal coordinated time would be applied?

I can honestly say that I don't know. Why did I guess the 19th instead of the 20th originally?  I can only say that all real factors that existed at that time contributed to my guess, and, because the factors would have been different if additional clarity had been present in the OP, I would like to point out that it is just as likely that I would have originally guessed the 20th.  After all, a slight change of original factors might have slightly changed my original entry.

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December 22, 2011, 08:43:24 AM
 #139

In all honesty, this whole ordeal has been fun for me, not because I enjoy stirring up conflict, but because I truly do believe in what I am saying and it is fun to defend it.  

And because it appeals to the ladies, right?   Roll Eyes

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper or hardware wallets instead.
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December 22, 2011, 09:20:40 AM
 #140

And thank you, the joint, for reminding me the reason why I refused all my life to gamble or take any bets and why I'll continue to refuse it for the rest of my life: BEING A LOSER IS SOMETHING THAT MOST PERSONS CAN'T DEAL WITH!

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