Bitcoin Forum

First, allow me to direct you attention to this thread:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=53888.0

According to the OP in this thread, a bet was set where OldEngineer would pay 5BTC to the person who correctly guessed the date that BTC would cross the $4 threshold.  In the event of a tie, the prize would go to the first guesser.

On Dec. 6th US central time, I guessed that the price would cross $4 on Dec. 19th.  This is exactly what happened.  It crossed $4 sometime around 10pm US central time on Dec. 19.

But, apparently, OldEngineer claims that Goat won.  Goat guessed Dec. 20th and was also correct since he was guessing according to Thai Time.  OldEngineer claims Goat won because a post on Dec. 7th made the clarification that GMT would be the deciding time.

But, this post, which clarified that GMT would be the deciding time, was made AFTER I cast my guess.  Why the hell should I, a person who uses US central time, make a guess based upon GMT?

OldEngineer, please send me BTC as, per the rules of your OP, I am clearly the winner.  It is not fair to go by some rule that was just "created" in the middle of the game when my guess was not cast according to those rules.

Edit:  I really would not like to make this a big deal if I don't have to.  Please fulfill your end of the agreement and there will be no problems.

i don't care. ITS ONLY FUCKING 5 BTC!

Somehow I have a feeling you're not in college.

Whether its failure to pay in a bet or failure to pay in a market transaction, scamming and dishonesty are not welcome on this forum.

I don't suppose you would care to, out of the goodness of your heart, give me 5 of your own BTC then, since its "only fucking 5 BTC."

+1... I'm siding with you on this

You can't seriously be claiming skill in predicting, to the hour, the time at which the $4 threshold was broken?  I suppose you should have adjusted your guess after clarification of the rules, then. I think we're all just f'in monkeys throwing poo at a dartboard.

Dude, I didn't even check the thread again until yesterday.

You can't seriously be claiming that your bogus "rule," which was enforced without making sure that every guesser knew about it, didn't change anything at all.  Clearly it DID change things and, as the hoster of the bet, you should have made sure that every guesser was informed of this rule change.

It's funny.  People like to bitch and complain when people running complex operations like exchanges or other BTC services fail to notify their customers UP FRONT about all the rules and stipulations that they can expect.  Well, I'm bitching and complaining because what you did is no different, making some random change, not telling anybody, assuming that all guessers would find this out for themselves.  How do you know that this new information wouldn't make me change my guess?

he have not claimed that he had skills, only that he was closer then Goat. he is only lucky

IIRC, weren't you the guy also siding with the thief who accidentally got sent Bitcoin by mistake by Phantomcircuit who works for Intersango?

There is absolutely no doubt that I both:  1)  Cast my vote before Goat and 2) Cast my vote before the new "rule" was implemented.

I don't even know what IIRC is.

Edit:  I do remember what you're talking about, I think.  I recall some matter where some exchange mistakenly sent some guy a bunch of BTC who didn't want to return it.  I think I remember questioning the legality of the exchange's complaint when they were talking about coming after the guy legally.

If he was, I'm going to disagree with him on that, but that doesn't affect the issue of old_engineer not paying up.

Nothing like a poor loser starting a new thread. Old_engineer, started the contest, someone said "what time zone" rather early on, and he said "GMT". GMT is the standard time zone in many things because it is the standard. You know, the way that Central time is referred commonly listed as "UTC - 06:00" just to explicitly show what time zone it is? And of course UTC is the replacement of GMT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordinated_Universal_Time).

Why would anyone use GMT as the standard? Because it is. When you're dealing with a global environment, what else would you use? Anyway, you lost out on 5BTC because you got in early on a free contest, never corrected your vote (basically because you had a lucky guess), and now you're whining about it. Welcome to the Internet. His game, his rules.

IIRC = If I Remember Correctly

All of that is irrelevant since I cast my guess before GMT was even mentioned.

As a result, I never viewed the thread again until yesterday.  So, I was completely made unaware of this rule.  Hence, the game was played under different rules by different players.

A pm I sent to OldEngineer just now.

Hello,

Please, sir, with all due respect, I have met all the winning criteria of your bet post.  There is absolutely no doubt that not-only did I guess correctly according to the OP, but I also:  1.) Guessed before Goat and 2.)  I guessed before the suggestion/implementation of your new "rule."  Since I was not informed of this rule change, I could not have changed my guess.  The fact that the bet is of a guessing-nature does nothing to change the fact that your "rule" was unfair as it did not apply to everyone equally.  Some were aware of the rule before guessing...I was not.

Because of this, the game is demonstrated to have been played under false pretenses if you continue to maintain the validity of your "rule."  Not everyone playing played by the same rules, and thus your game was slanted.

I understand it is "only 5 BTC" but I would encourage you to follow through on being decent and honest in this matter.

Thank you.

-The Joint

When you make a game, you can decide on the rules. If someone makes a game with unclear rules and then "changes" them with a clarifying comment, it's up to the players to conform to the rule changes.

how's OldEngineer was supposed to notify everyone?

That's not my problem, I was the player.

i certainly don't want to open up that big wound again, but that was a nasty black eye on Bitcoin at the time.  i think it was during the summer.  Patrick of Intersango wrote some new code which accidentally sent a large amt of btc to some random guy who decided to keep the btc.  it was a clear mistake.  his identity was even revealed.

personally, i think he was wrong to do this but i was surprised over how many ppl sided with him.  basically most of the Old Guard folks like me sided with Patrick and tried to politely convince him to return the btc whereas the others thought he should be able to keep it.

all sorts of nasty legal threats were made even by the lawyers of this Forum.  i don't know the final outcome.

Dude, do you know what deception is?

Isn't Universal Time the default when you are talking to audience from many different timezones?

sometimes...

Good grief.
Drop the americo-centrism people.
Bitcoin is global.  UTC is the *only* reasonable default.

Idiotic thread.

Oh, oh, oh! I have an idea! If he needs to change/clarify rules, he should post a comment in the contest thread. Then he can expect anyone that actually cares to update their post; if they don't care, they don't change and worst case they're off by one day. As it so happens, he did this and in a twist of fate we had one of the few people who would be affected get lucky/unlucky. C'est la vie!

you seriously think he had an obligation to send you a pm notification?  the game was all in fun, dude.

Wow.  Just wow.

What in the world makes a guy wake up one day and decide to blow any good will and karma that he might have accumulated with the community over losing $20 in a zero-risk wager because of his own faulty assumption?


Do you?

Is this how you all live your lives?

Do you all walk around living your lives according to GMT or universal time or whatever?

Jesus Christ, this isn't hard to understand.  I live in Illinois, so I made a guess based upon my time zone.   If my friend asks me, "Hey, what time are we going to dinner?", I don't know about you but I always make sure to ask him, "You mean, Illinois time or Japan time?"

Deception:
1. The use of deceit.
2. The fact or state of being deceived.
3. A ruse; a trick.

Whining:
1. To utter a plaintive, high-pitched, protracted sound, as in pain, fear, supplication, or complaint.
2. To complain or protest in a childish fashion.
3. To produce a sustained noise of relatively high pitch.

Which is more likely out of those two? If Old_engineer didn't pay up to anyone, that would be deceit; if he simply chooses to pay someone else because according to his rules that person won, that's nothing of the sort. If you'd like to try and convince the actual winner to part with half of his winnings, that would be a better approach, but they're by no means obligated to do so.

the real point is you shouldn't be complaining about a simple game all done in fun.  Old Engineer was donating his 5 BTC just to give all you guys something to do.  i did the same thing just last week AND i had to make some clarifications in the rules fortunately only 3 or 4 comments in.

cut your losses now.

When you are talking to people from all possible time zones the only universal time is UTC, this is the common reference point.

I did and will continue to do so.  To be fair, this isn't mere "whining."  I feel as though I have been treated unfairly (and, of course, my guess was made under different rules).  The implementation of the rule changes changes the nature of the game.  What if, upon knowing this rule change, I wanted to switch my guess?  What if that new guess had already been taken by someone else?  The implementation of the rule adjusts the STATISTICS of the game.  As guesses were cast both before and after the rule change, those who guessed before the rule and wanted to change their guess would be forced to pick from a MORE CONSTRAINED SET OF DAYS.  This naturally affects a persons' chances of winning.  Thus, the game was ultimately slanted.

I've sent you 1BTC, Marry Christmas dude!  i don't believe OE is in a wrong here as painted in the OP subject, he did best he could to be fair to everyone; didn't solicit for payments to run away, nothing to fight over really, it was just a fun game.

I've talked internationally with many foreigners through chat, pm, IM, etc.

Never once has UTC ever come up.  It's more like, "What time is it where you live?"

so you can win, by telling a lie about where you live? nice.

If the "fun game" was for 1000 BTC, I have a feeling more of you would understand where I am coming from.

The question of whether it's 5 BTC or 1000 BTC is unimportant.  It's a matter of integrity and fairness.  The game was not played fairly as the rule changed the statistical nature of the game.  Statistical rules became different for players casting guesses before the new rule compared with those casting guesses after.

Your kindness is very welcome :)  I will send you back your 1 BTC if either OldEngineer or Goat decide to send the 5 BTC to the rightful winner.

I can prove where I live.

Now you want Goat to send you BTC?  Goat won fairly too... I think the fair solution is to give each of you 5.

I would be (more) happy with 2.5 BTC to each rather than 5 BTC to each.

i will tell you honestly the joint, after this thread i will probably ignore any future offerings (services,products,etc) from you if such may come to light. simply because of such a huge deal you've made over rules disagreement in a stupid game

the 1 btc is a gift, not a loan, enjoy it.

this is exactly the problem he is creating for himself that he can't see.  people like the joint focus only on technicalities and ignore social customs or grace.  and we wonder why our society faces such challenges.

From hijacking the Thai baht symbol, to talk of 'the government' (as if there is only one) to ill-specified date/times...  the lack of global thinking around here needs to change.

That aside.. you didn't pay to participate.

Mods.. please lock/trash this thread for inflammatory title and general sliminess.

Check out my rep in honest traders.

With a world audience, yes, as is the case with this forum community.  If one wants to specify a time zone - like, say, CST - there's nothing stopping you.  I was even going to honor BTC_bear's day prediction of "Monday" because it amused me.

Also, the general method of conflict resolution is PM, _then_ public discussion. the_joint went straight to posting a new thread, and far more than 5 btc worth of time has been wasted on this silly contest result.

I posted this in the original thread, thought I should crosspost here (and is likely my last post on the matter):

And I'm sure making such a comment that is about me but not addressed to me really shows your own social graces.  And we wonder why...

you can be top notch honest guy, but i don't want anything to do with loony fruitcake side of you ;)

Let's not forget such things as this: "The smartest student, I think, is the one who finds the most efficient means of passing any examination or test they come across. Yes, even by cheating."

We could say lying is also allowable by such an attitude, which is precisely the sort of thinking that causes the most harm to society. Lie, cheat, steal -- do whatever it takes to get ahead. For someone who posts regularly on the forums to say that he "never saw the rule change" is unlikely at best. I know I wouldn't trust the joint either after this little diatribe.

I did send you a PM after you had sent Goat the BTC.  You have not replied.  I had made my case repeatedly in threads before making comments about you personally.  But, you did not find my reasoning to be correct and so you sent goat the BTC.  That is when I began making threads such as this one.

That's up to you.

The joint,

No offense I like you alot, and enjoy reading your posts, but you're complaining about being burned for 5BTC while still having a link to a ponzi-scheme on your sig. It's kind of an oxymoron if you know what I mean...

Edit: Not trying to defend goat, or whoever the the scammer is. Just bringing up a good point, since you were talking about "deception", in your last posts..

Do you even know what I meant by that and in what context?

Please do not assume you know exactly what I meant.  At least show the other members the context of that quote if you're going to use it.  For example, there are studies that show that children who are pathological liars are typically more intelligent (according to the g factor) than their peers because they are able to avoid negative consequences of their actions.  My "quote" was grounded in research AND rooted in a much different context.

First, yes, I don't have a lot of money.  5 BTC to me is much more valuable than it is for some people.

And I'm complaining about being burned, not about being burned for 5 BTC.  I have many many posts warning the community about potential scammers when I noticed something was fishy.  I have always stated my problem with scams and have been genuine and honest in all my transactions on here.

All I am asking for is that honesty and fairness be returned in my direction.  I either 1.) Won the game fair and square or 2.)  Lost the game due to statistical unfairness.  I dont care if it was for .01 BTC, I would react  much the same way.  The principle is what is important to me here.  The amount of BTC is a mitigating factor.

And thanks for the compliment.

it's pretty simple, watching this thread makes me think that any other simple misunderstandings could escalate to similar proportions.

I understand... I will stay out of this one :D. Good luck trying to get this payment. This is why I hate "games" in the forums... It makes for unnecessary drama, because when it's time to pay up, no one has the dough lol.

Fallacy of generalizing the specific, but that's yours to make.

This is simply an issue of fairness.  I am not treating this any differently than if it were a marketplace scam.  Unfairness is the common denominator of each situation, and that is what I am focusing on.

old_engineer tried to be as fair as possible to all players, you gotta give him credit for that and put this to rest.

it is also doubtful that you haven't seen that thread between first posting in it and yesterday

It's not exactly a thread that I needed to keep tabs on... "Omg, I wonder what this person guessed....omg, I wonder what this person guessed."

I put in a guess, forgot about it, then saw that the price was nearing $4 yesterday, and so the thread kept appearing atop my "show unread posts since last visit" link. 

It still doesn't change the fact that it was impossible for me to have won.  Since the GMT rule was implemented, I could not have guessed Dec. 20th because Goat had already guessed it.  So, the rule itself made it impossible for me to win because my guess would be nullified if I changed it to the "winning" date.

I will put it to rest after it has been addressed, just like any marketplace scam.

it wasn't a scam though, there was a winner and old_engineer paid his dues, although you don't agree with the outcome result.


>>> It's not exactly a thread that I needed to keep tabs on... "Omg, I wonder what this person guessed....omg, I wonder what this person guessed."

but now it is a huge deal?   make up your mind =)

This is petty, move on.

Yes, mods, please intervene if you feel necessary.

I feel I am morally, ethically, and rationally justified.  I have absolutely no problem with having this thread locked/removed if they, too, believe I am only blowing smoke.

A good game is fair for all players.  His rule created a statistical imbalance.  To win this game, skill is involved to a certain degree; a date 1 year from now is obviously a lot more likely than a date 10,000 years from now, and is a more skillful guess.  My skill was nullified as a factor the instant this rule was implemented for it prevented me from having the opportunity to change my answer to the winning answer.

My pms to both OldEngineer and Goat were civil.  I obviously have no issue with Goat other than I think he is holding 5 of my BTC, but 2.5 would be acceptable to me, and that's because I feel that it would be generous of me to allow him to keep 2.5 BTC.  I do not think he won, pure and simple.  Similarly, I have no problems with oldengineer outside of this situation.  I'm sure he's a good guy.  I just think he should understand that I think he screwed me over on this one, even if he doesn't see it the same way.

The thread wasn't a huge deal because a surge towards $4 hadn't happened yet.  I cared to find out who won, and I actually had forgotten my guess and thought that I had guessed the 16th.  When I looked back and saw that I guessed the 19th, that's when I knew I'd won.

only thing you've achieved with this thread is ruin your own rep imo and make people like old_engineer think twice before offering fun free money to community in a form of simple games and contests.

if you say the winning is a big deal to you then you should have clearly followed the thread and readjusted your guess based on rule clarifications, if it wasn't a big deal then what's happening with your claim now is an attempt of free money grab because of conflicting time zones.

well you did not win Goat did. :P

the joint did make his concerns known prior to the distribution of the winnings. It can be argued that the timezones prior to the standardization announcement should have been based on the user's local time, as shown in there profile. Because of this confusion, the distribution of the funds should have at least been brought into public opinion after his announcement of his ruling, but before the funds were distributed.

That being said, this was a free contest, and nothing about the rule change reduced the joint's chances of being correct. Thus, I don't think that it really matters how this should have been handled. It was handled, and not in an unfair manner.

Maged,

Your statement that "nothing about the rule change reduced the joint's chances of being correct" is irrelevant, and instead, it should be "nothing about the rule change reduced the joint's chances of winning.  You must keep in mind that there was an additional rule as stated in his OP that stated in the event of a tie, the winner would be the first correct guesser.  Now, Goat and I tied in the sense that we guessed the correct date according to our corresponding time zones.  But, since I was apparently allowed to change my guess under the rule change, it then became impossible for me to win.  I could no longer pick Dec. 20th, the selected winning answer and Goat's answer, because my guess would be instantly nullified since he had already guessed it.  Thus, the rule change itself meant that I not only had reduced chances of being correct, I had no chance of winning.

If someone says to me 9 o'clock, Do I always first assume they mean 9:00 rather than 21:00?  Because, otherwise they would have clarified, yes?  Of  course not.  People are idiots.  And on the internet if someone says, 9 oclock, do I first assume they mean GMT?  Again, no, they probably forgot that everyone doesn't live in their time zone.  So, I side with old Engineer, because if you say the "19th", you might as well say "monday".  Ambiguity rules it out.

Edit: I hate timezones, the imperial system, and AM and PM.  Why, god, do we still use AM and PM?

In either case, the rules were set up such that it is incredibly easy to determine who guessed first. 

The rules are such that it is easy to see the joint guessed Dec 19th first, but the problem is that it doesn't show if he guessed Dec. 19 UTC or Dec. 20 UTC. Since the forums run on UTC by default (not sure if that can be changed), UTC time zone is implied in which case he was off by a day. Furthermore, the joint says when he saw that the price was close to $4, he kept tabs on the thread. Unfortunately (for him), he failed to notice the clarification of the rules.

That should be the end of it. You make a mistake, or fail to keep up on an ever changing world, and it's your loss. To go on a rant about the supposed "screwing" is misguided at best. When I saw the rule initially, I didn't figure there'd be a tie, but even so the lack of a time zone was something I noticed. Either way, chalk this one up to the file cabinet of experience and move on.

The joint, I agree that you should have gotten at least 50% of the prize winnings. But it doesn't do you any good to argue it to death. You didn't pay to enter the contest, therefore, if the guy who is giving away the money wants to make a ruling that doesn't favor you, he has full power to do so.

Believe me, I understand how it must feel to know you won something and have it given to someone else. But you have to let go of things that are out of your control. Life is too short for this.

Like I said earlier, the amount doesn't matter.

I live in Hellanois too.  We're probably the only two people in this state that know what Bitcoin is (hyperbole is fun).

I'm an extremely small player in this experiment as I suspect you are -- my net worth is something like 30 BTC and I spent all my pell grant excesses on mining equipment and I do that at a meager 1.5 GH/s.

In the interest of the spirit of the season and global good will and a nod to locality, I donate thee 1 BTC.

Now, Karma -- let my long position on Bitcoinica take off, please  ;D

Holy shit, thanks for not reading. Good luck pal.

No, I read it.  Letting go and acting on a belief are not mutually exclusive.

What's that belief? Life is fair? You have a lot to learn...especially about how to talk to people without sounding like a entitled ass.

It isn't a question on who guessed first.  It is a question on what exactly was your guess.  For all we know, you originally meant GMT.  Also, if no one can have the same guess as another person then either the first person that bets sets the timezone for all other bets (otherwise bets would overlap) or it can be deduced that a standard timezone is in effect. 

Ironic.

Not a sound deduction.  You can still guess it, you simply wouldn't win.

Is it? Please elaborate. You might be able to fit your other foot in your mouth too.

Stop whining. You didn't lose any money.

Haha really?  Nice!  And thank you!

If I obtain the original 5 BTC I will, in the spirit of the season, kindly repay you and the other guy that generously donated 1 BTC, and send an additional BTC :)

Nice name.

So I looked through the original thread a little bit...

To me it looks like you're just trying to stir up crap here and be a troll.  Dude posts a thread offering a prize to the first person to guess the day BTC goes over $4 and he forgets to specify the timezone.  Within 12 hours of the original post, someone has asked how it's judged and an answer was given.  Now you complain because your guess was almost right but not according to the timezone.

If you had even seen the change in timezone would you have changed your guess?  I doubt it, people were randomly throwing days out there.

Whether or not you doubt if I would change my guess is irrelevant.  I was given the opportunity to change my guess (apparently) and I could no longer choose the selected winning date due to the first guesser wins rule.

Being the now-identified third btc user in Illinois, I would offer the thought that anyone who doesn't use UTC in an online forum, or for communicating with anyone regarding times around the globe is a prize ass. Standards exist so that we don't have to agree whether of not we are going to use "Upper Mongolian Standard Time" or "Central Daylight Savings", or "Fucked Up Indiana Has To Be An Asshole Time" that is 15 minutes off, we all have one basis that is universal and the deviation from that standard is consistent for all.

If you didn't think of that, in this life-altering contest, that is consuming such a huge portion of your attention, then perhaps you should not be the first sinner to be tossing stones about who went to college and who didn't.

Your lack of understanding, failure to monitor the thread, and poorly conceived ad hominem attacks are what "screwed" you, and thanks to some gracious people willing to pay you to shut the fuck up, you have already won a nice 2 btc second place prize that wasn't even mentioned in the original rules. Karma is dry-humping you and you aren't even aware of it.

Key takeaway? Shut the fuck up and stop whining.

Thanks. You too.

What do you do to relax?

Write remarkably coherent, often harsh, judgmental and acerbic posts on a number of fora. Weave chain maille bikinis.

And when I deal with people around the world, I use UTC. Thanks for asking.

College? This kid sounds like he is barely out of kindergarten.

What time zone are the forum posts in? Where is the contest being held? You lost, I lost, get over it.

Whining from people like you makes it less likely that old engineer will do another contest like this again. Too much of a headache.

Also old engineer even did one better and paid out double to goat because he keeps on donating his winnings to orphans and such.

Thank you for the contest engineer and thank you for your generosity Goat.

I said this elsewhere, but let me make it explicit:

isn't it embarassing to display unawareness that we're living on a round planet, and that global communities have to define their time suitably for this fact?

If I were to make a mistake like this -- I doubt it, but I can't blame anyone, everybody makes mistakes -- I'd try to make sure nobody noticed. This show here, to try and get just 5 BTC? What did you expect old_engineer to do, count your vote in both UTC and your local time?

There is no reasonable solution other than assuming UTC. Sorry if you're new to global communities, but such are the rules, and thinking about it just a moment makes it clear that the rules have to be that way, or else things become extremely annoying.

You've got no skin in the game. Get the sand out of your gyne and go to bed.

Wow.  This thread got relocated a second time.  That's how crazy it is.

the_joint,

Welcome to Bitcoinica! I will send you the f**king 5 BTC to your account for you to start trading. You made a pretty great guess!

(This is off-topic forum, so I posted this off-topic stuff.)

zhoutong, at first I wasn't sure about you, but now you've got the full 'Folds Seal of Approval'. Fucking A, you've been on fire the past few days!

That's unique...are you offering me a 5 BTC account as a promo or something?  If you genuinely think I deserve it, then I really want to thank you, but I only truly care about the original 5 BTC.  It is up to you.

In either case, you are very kind.

I understand what the original 5 BTC means to you. But well, why can't there be a tie? You deserve it as much as Goat did, and old_engineer wasn't wrong at all to give out only 5 BTC for the contest.

Just post your username and I will send 5 BTC to you immediately. If you don't want to trade on Bitcoinica or don't like it, just withdraw it right away. :-)

This is marketing at its finest.

LOL, I will take 5BTC and spend it on Bitcoinica if you send it to me Zhoutong... To be honest though I don't think I would put any of my own coins on there.

As for joint just take the offer. You lost the bet so deal with it. Zhoutong is being very generous here even though he had nothing to do with this contest.

If the joint had any class whatsoever, he would take the now 7 btc, and send it to Goat to help the orphans. Then we could all happily say that the greater good of humankind shown through in this episode and everybody came out a winner. Especially the orphans.

What say you TJ? Big enough man to step up?

How very generous of you!

dfjJ3-cnapd@  is my username. 

I have credited the 5 BTC to you.

Thanks!

I see absolutely no fault on the part of old_engineer. Probably I would have done exactly the same thing if it was my contest and I had forgotten to specify a timezone.

It could be more easily argued that you were in violation of the contest rules because you did not specify a single exact date. A date given without a timezone could apply to multiple real dates.

While you are clearly the most important center of the world, you are not the entirety of the internet.

For example, by law in the UK (Interpretation Act 1978, section 9) whenever an expression of time occurs in an act, deed, or other instrument, the time referred to shall be held to be Greenwich mean time.

It should be noted that the standard time 'zone' of the internet is UTC - nearly but not unambiguously synonymous with GMT. Furthermore 19/12/11 is an ambiguous dyslexic notation, to be replaced with international standard (ISO 8601), such as 2011-12-19.

+1

This would be like playing blackjack in a casino, busting on a hand, and then blaming your loss on the player who took a lower card just before you, the card you would have gotten had he not taken it.

It wasn't his fault.  You had an equal overall chance regardless.

Well not unless our Cassandra actually *knew* the price action down to the hour. Other's were guessing, but as always our Cassandra got shafted because no one (except Zhou) believes her.

Thanks for the opinion, Theymos.  I disagree, but thanks.

Dear Serge, Crypt_Current, and Zhoutong,

I commend you for your generosity, but you've perfectly demonstrated 'moral hazard'. Now any immature poor loser will see a profitable incentive to whine in the future. If you don't want the pigeons shitting on your head, stop feeding them.

+1

My first thought when I started reading this thread was to post "If I send you the 5 BTC will you STFU?"

But then I decided that if we give in to his temper tantrum that will just teach him to throw more temper tantrums.

So now he has won by tantrum and only time will tell.  We will see how he responds next time life is unfair.

I would like to remind OldEngineer that where I live, the first day of the year is determined by the first break of sun above the horizon after the year's longest night. That can be wildly different depending on one's latitude, altitude above southern mountains, etc. So, for example, it is now the 97th hour of 17 December, when the sun last rose just a pin hole of light above the small mountain to my south. My neighbor has a nice view of the Labrador Sea and she saw the sun rise on 18 December. None the less, OldEngineer, you should have considered my specific location and circumstances when formulating your fun game.

It's pretty interesting that people are getting on my case about "not assuming UTC" or "not assuming GMT" when:  1.)  Apparently there are different opinions among community members about what the "obvious assumption" is,  and 2.)  It is equally ignorant/offensive to assume that someone should use GMT or UTC simply because x number of people believe it is the most-common point of reference.  If anything, I think assuming the person's local time-zone as a point of reference is the least ignorant and least offensive solution, for it does not "force" anything upon anyone.

Apparently, if there are at least 3 different opinions floating around (those that agree with me and both those that faulted me for not assuming GMT and UTC), then obviously it's not such a clear cut situation after all.

The amount of time invested by some members of the community in calling me a "whiner" when I, myself, have refrained from name-calling and have remained very civil in the matter given the level of scrutiny I have received (albeit my first couple of posts after OldEngineer proclaimed Goat as the Winner were not as civil...I thought OldEngineer didn't care to check far back enough to see that I had won), does not an angel make.  Moreover, claiming that my "karma" is kicking my ass and I don't even know it could be quite far from the truth...after all, maybe karma is with me on this one and thats why it sent me 7 BTC and not 5 BTC.  Anyone care to assume they know what universal justice is?

All I have done is continue to repeat and defend my decision according to the rules of the game in the order that they were implemented.

I stand my ground and I am content with what I have said, content with my position, and content with where the original 5 (10) BTC in question ended up.  

Continue to flame if you wish, but please, really bad assumptions, tangential arguments, ad-homs, hypothetical propositions, and otherwise do not make you smarter or cooler simply because a lot of other people, though they may happen to agree with you, are also using them.

I'll refrain from calling you a whiner.


You do whine an awful lot though.

 >:( ......................   :D

Can I also get 7BTC if I start a whiner thread?  ::)

If, at the very least, you are correct, then yes....yes you can.

FTFY

Just re-use this thread, like this:

This one time (at band camp), this guy told me he would give me 10 BTC, and then he didn't, waaa, waaa.  Life is so unfair.  Please give me the 10 BTC that guy totally promised he would send me.  He OWES me.  I will argue until the cows come home that he owes me because he said he would give it to me (waaaa, waaaa).

Thank you for taking the time to do so.

Bruce, seriously, you're the absolute last person that should be giving me a lesson in ethics.  I need to go wash my hands now.

Not Bruce - just give me 10 BTC and I will leave this thread :)

You seem to be confused about who is mocking you...bwagner is not Bruce, fella.

I'm happy for you that you're not Bruce lol.

Me too!  BTW he is no relation either!

You seem to be confused and think I'm actually offended by anybody on this forum that "mocks" me regarding this situation.

I could be threatened with being banned for life from Bitcointalk, and it won't change my position.

I'm very comfortable and happy with my stance.  Just because 50 some-odd people disagree doesn't mean any one of them is correct. 

You know what you sound like...a typical american ultra-entitled college kid.

You know what you sound like?

Someone who throws out cliche garbage because it sounds good while thinking to yourself, "Ooooo, I got him that time...I hit him with cultural insensitivity."  Please, I do social work and the majority of my clients are minority clients, and I've been praised by the clients themselves for my cultural sensitivity, most notably my ability to listen and not judge.  

You don't know jack.  Quit being upset because I was graciously given 7 BTC by people who either sympathized or agreed with me.   Two can play this faulty assumption game.  

Edit:  Did you know that those who spend more time using online forms of communication are more likely to extract information or emotions from a conversation that are actually nonexistant?  Language is important, and I recommend you pay more attention to what is actually said vs. finding ways to infer fallacious nonsense for the sole purpose of antagonizing me.

Just because the world thinks I am wrong doesn't mean I am! You're all just jealous! I do what I want!

While UTC is the only Universal Coordinated Time, it is true that there are numerous other possible and asinine assumptions one could have made. But either (1) you assumed without question that your own timezone rather than at least 24 other possibilities was the official definitive zone, or (2) you believed that there would be at least 24 different potential sets of rules subject to each individual player's location. Please, which delusion seduced you, or is there some third assumption?

I'm curious, since it was not specifically articulated: did you assume that $4 represented four US dollars?

Why is that? Because you live in the United States? What about Canadians? Could they have assumed Canadian dollars without question? Mexicans might have assumed four pesos, as they too use the $ sign. I'm sure our Australian, central American, New Zealand, Hong Kong, Singapore, and Taiwanese friends were equally baffled.

My name is RandyFolds!   I can shout nonsense!  I'm clearly right and clearly hilarious because more people side with me and are saying the same kinds of things I'm saying!  I have approval!  I knew that I must be smarter than I originally thought!

I could give a rat's ass who agrees with me. The fact of the matter is that your whole sob-session is completely classless. I view it akin to a child throwing a fit in a Walmart toy section, except the child is an adult and the toy section is a bunch of people who don't give a fuck and are laughing at you.

Please tell me why I, a U.S. citizen, who because of having ready internet access should be one of the most likely people to know what UTC means, had never even heard of UTC until this game?  What's more ridiculous is that people keep shrieking on about "UTC!  You should have assumed UTC!"  when the game itself didn't even assume UTC, even after the rule change.

In reponse to your point (1), actually, I assumed all time zones because I assumed that each guess was made according to whatever timezone the player uses.  This leads to addressing your 2nd point (2) because it means that there is only 1 set of rules.  A good rule structure both (1) distributes evenly to all players and (2) takes into account individual circumstance.  The laws of the universe certainly act this way (gravity and light, anyone?).  According to my assumption, each person makes a guess according to their individual timezone, but the forum itself serves as an objective reference point to determine who guessed first (you can simply view the order in which the guesses were posted).  So, in the event that any 2 people guessed correctly according to their time zone as was the case between me and Goat, all you have to do is see whose post appeared first in the thread.  That was me.  Hence I won.  I'm not even going to explain again why the rule change completely affected the statistical nature of the game, which is a separate issue.  In any case, neither of your 2 points represent any "delusion" that "seduced" me.

Yes, I assumed $4 represented 4 US dollars.  Didn't many people?  Isn't $ the symbol for the US dollar?   I didn't know $ was used to denote yen or some other currency.  

But, your point is good.  In fact, I'm sure many of the people who played the game assumed the same thing, but flamed me anyway for my assumption of local time zone (which is MUCH different from assuming US central time).

Well, your class is certainly showing now, isn't it?

Don't feel bad for me.  I'm a very happy individual.

You must be confused. No sympathy was directed towards you...only contempt for your behavior. Plenty of men are happy to get black out drunk and beat their wives. Does that make it ok?

Actually several people came out and agreed with me and my position.

Not sure where the drunk wife beating thing comes into play.  Try again.

I am pleased you took the time to answer my questions honestly.


I suppose we can not assume that just because you are a student of higher education in one of the wealthiest and presumably educated nations in the world, that you are both worldly and educated. If you were not previously aware that there was a universal coordinated time, now you know.



Are you distinguishing GMT from UTC? For all practical purposes, they are the same. If the spike up to four US dollars had occurred during a rare leap second then perhaps this ambiguity could have been argued further, but the distinction between GMT and UTC is entirely irrelevant in your case.



Was this assumption made at the time of your vote or after you determined you may have won? If the assumption was made at the time of the vote, did you not suspect there might be ambiguity and that it would be prudent to ask for a clarification?



So, there should be one set of rules, but those rules should also be relative to each player? Can you cite another game with similarly good rules? In Goat's universe, you did not win, but in your universe you did win, or are you suggesting that the rules of the game should have been as robust as those codified in Einstein's general theory of relativity?



And you honestly believed that every player would have been queried for his individual timezone? I think this is the first point that is shocking to most everyone here. You truly believed this at the time of your vote?



No, I think most would agree that if the rules changed after you voted, that would be unfair.

I think we do question whether that change would have altered your vote at the time you made the vote, two weeks before the event. Had you known at the time of your vote that it would be roughly six hours in advance, would you have changed your vote (or your location)?

More importantly, we question that the rules changed at all, rather than simply being clarified several hours later.

While some might have assumed either UTC or Old_engineer's own local timezone, I doubt ANYONE but you assumed relative time.



I agree. I believe your unique delusion conveniently seduced you after the fact.



Yes. Exactly. There are innumerable things that must be assumed in human discourse. We are also usually free to ask questions.



The $ symbol does not denote yen, but it does denote many dollars, pesos, and other currencies used by dozens of countries around the world. Now you know.



I agree that numerous relative local time zones, rather than singularly assuming US central time is very different. You caught me making an assumption about your argument. It's very interesting. Fascinating. It would never have occurred to me that one could make this assumption. I'll keep that in mind. Thank you.

Yet your unusual assumptions do not trump the common assumptions of the majority nor the game creator. It's typically called 'the smell test'. And you failed.

I am pleased you took the time to address me in the manner that you have.  In all honesty, this whole ordeal has been fun for me, not because I enjoy stirring up conflict, but because I truly do believe in what I am saying and it is fun to defend it.  




I feel compelled to point out that linking "worldly" and "educated" to the application of GMT and UTC is a leap of reductionism.  But yes, I am now aware that it exists.



Now I know this too.  I have a feeling I will never forget after this.





It was assumed at the time of the vote, and I assumed that the rules were set up such that it would be easy to discern whose vote was cast first and from what time zone each vote was cast.  I also assumed that the game-maker had put enough thought into the game such that the rules in the OP were the final ones to be used throughout the entire game.



Actually, you're close.  In the absence of a clarification, I chose to defunct to the rules of nature.  Universal syntax (laws/rules) are distributed evenly to all players but are played out relatively.  Gravity, light, the laws of thermodynamics...all of these things play out relatively.  I figured nature was a good enough game upon which to base my assumptions.  Actually, I try to use nature as a foundation for all of my assumptions and beliefs.  Upon what...or who...do you formulate your beliefs?



No, I believe the rules of the game were such that, at most, a 2-way tie may result because the first-guesser-wins rule would automatically nullify any 2nd-guessing of a date.  So, you would only have to query 2 people.  You wouldn't be able to have people in different time zones guessing the same date.  Date overrides time zone.  Narrows it down quite a bit.


I think they did, and I think it was.


I would likely not have chosen to alter my vote, but that's irrelevant.  If in fact I did have an opportunity to alter my vote (and apparently I did), then this is the reason why the game was statistically altered.  The simple opportunity to change my vote, in addition to the rule change and the first-guesser-wins rule, prohibited me from choosing the selected winning answer.  Goat guessed dec. 20th GMT.  Thus, I could not change my vote to dec. 20th GMT as it would have been instantly nullified.


See above.  In addition, the effects of the rule change have an impact on how the first-guesser-wins rule plays out.  After the rule change, it then became impossible to guess the same date according to different time zones.  So, for example, whereas before it would be possible to have 2 valid guesses on dec. 19th if the time zones were different, this was no longer possible after the rule change.


Ok.  Never would have thought to assume OldEngineer's timezone.  That'd be like assuming US Central Time.


I wouldn't call it a delusion.  Delusions are distorted perceptions of reality, and, as I stated, I try to ground my beliefs and assumptions upon nature/reality.  "Seduced" after the fact is interesting, but I think it's a bit unfair to say.  You can't expect me to have rationed all of this out prior to guessing.  I made the assumptions that I did at the time, and "after the fact" is when I realized there was a problem and chose to defend my entry.





This reminds me of an article I read on concept extension.  



Now I know.  Thank you.



You're welcome.  I don't think it's that hard after all the cultural relativism they beat into you in a social work curriculum.  


Never heard of "the smell test."  Maybe I failed it.  Still, the question remains, whose assumptions are most correct?  Wouldn't the most correct assumptions be deemed "correct" according to reality itself, and not mere pieces of it?  Yeah yeah, I know, OldEngineer is the judge.  And judge he did, albeit inaccurately.

Every domain requires different tools. I've studied comp sci and physics, yet I apply few of their logical lessons to human interaction.




To clarify, because I do not think it is irrelevant for your own conscience, would you have voted 20 rather than 19 December at the time you originally made the vote if you had known at the time, two weeks before the event, that not relative but universal coordinated time would be applied?

Here's a link to that article on concept extension I was talking about.  http://megasociety.org/noesis/191.htm#Overextension (http://megasociety.org/noesis/191.htm#Overextension)

Edit:  Actually, I think there's a lot you can learn about human interaction from nature and other disciplines.  Any truth is made through ratio (the root word of rationale).  So, I find analogies in nature that are related to human interaction.  Take any example.  To demonstrate, I'll pick radioactivity.  In short, when radioactive isotopes decay, they essentially explode and release a ton of energy, sending protons and stuff shooting off into other atoms, in turn knocking protons and other stuff off of them.  Now, when an angered person releases a ton of energy, how might that affect the other people around him?  Another example may be atomic fission as related to people with dissociative mental disorders.  On a related note, I also think that if we find out more about dark energy and dark space matter we might also find out more about junk DNA and dark brain matter.

When the laws of reality distribute to everything in it, you can find these kind of relationships between anything.

The greek concept of syndiffeonesis (or difference-in-sameness) essentially states that any 2 relands 'x' and 'y' are always bound by a common syntax or rule/law.  So, even if you were to say 'x' is absolutely different from 'y,' they would still be similar in that they are included within the medium of absolute difference.  So, EVERY relationship is syndiffeonic.  This may help explain my position that a good game has rules that distribute evenly to all players but take into account relative circumstance.  'X' and 'Y,' though different, are still bound by the same rule, much like how different players in different time zones were bound by the posting constraints of the thread (e.g. the person whose post appears first in the thread is the objective first poster).



I can honestly say that I don't know. Why did I guess the 19th instead of the 20th originally?  I can only say that all real factors that existed at that time contributed to my guess, and, because the factors would have been different if additional clarity had been present in the OP, I would like to point out that it is just as likely that I would have originally guessed the 20th.  After all, a slight change of original factors might have slightly changed my original entry.

And because it appeals to the ladies, right?   ::)

And thank you, the joint, for reminding me the reason why I refused all my life to gamble or take any bets and why I'll continue to refuse it for the rest of my life: BEING A LOSER IS SOMETHING THAT MOST PERSONS CAN'T DEAL WITH!

1) if you'd specified CST or Illinois time in your original post, it would have been honored.  You didn't, and that's your fault.

2) if you'd said you wanted the guess the 20th after the time zone was clarified, it would have been honored, even though Goat had already guessed it.  You didn't, and that's your fault.  I know you said you didn't check the thread, and I don't disbelieve you, but you _did_ have a chance at winning after the rule was clarified.  You didn't follow up on the chance, though, for which I can't be blamed.  I did what was reasonable: posting the clarification, in a timely manner, in the original thread.

3) to say you think you should have won is one is one thing; to say you've been "screwed out of 5 btc" implies fraud, theft, or other intentionally dishonest behavior on my part, which is certainly not the case.  You never had 5 btc that I took from you, or received from you without providing an asset or a service.  I was under no obligation to send anyone anything: not you, not Goat, no one.  To prove that I owed you 5 btc, you'd have to show a signed contract or similar instrument.  There is no such document for this free giveaway.

4) I can sue you for libel because your statement in the title of this thread is both demonstrably false and harming my reputation.  It's a serious enough allegation that a number of mods have weighed in, and every single one of them disagree with you.  Do you understand the difference between "I think I should have won the contest!" and "He screwed me out of 5 BTC!"?  What if I later try to make my living off a bitcoin-related product?  Do you understand how this thread could materially damage my reputation?

source (http://www.medialaw.org/Content/NavigationMenu/Public_Resources/Libel_FAQs/Libel_FAQs.htm)

However, I'm a nice guy, and I hope it doesn't come to that.  I'm willing to settle out-of-court for 2 btc.  Send them to: 1NWShYZFYVRd18ayvhZUdiW77HVqLKuRtG

I also ask that you change the thread title so that when it is indexed by google, my pseudonym does not appear.

And this might help you to identify a pattern in your conversations in this thread, and perhaps in the rest of your life, too:
http://demotivators.despair.com/dysfunctiondemotivator.jpg

Do you understand the difference between "he screwed me out of 5 BTC" and "I THINK he screwed me out of 5 BTC?"  Language is important, and I've been careful to use it.

For the record, OldEngineer has sent me a private message stating his intent to sue me.  I think he has no legal leg to stand on as he (1) cannot prove my comments have been injurious as indicated by the results of the "what's fair" thread poll and as indicated by the overwhelming support he has received by others in the community and (2) that statements that I have made, especially those beginning with "I think," cannot be objectively proven nor disproved.  Actually, I think I could probably sue many who responded on the thread for libel with a more likely chance of success.

Regardless, I have offered him 2 BTC if he is willing to send those 2 BTC to the 2 gracious gentleman that donated 1 BTC apiece to me.

My suggestion is that you both start legal actions against each other.  My wife is an attorney and she would be willing to represent either of you. To keep it "in the family" so to speak she will work for BTC.  She will represent the first one that will send her 1000 BTC to get the process started!  Now that I think about it this is a pretty complicated case so let's make it 10,000 BTC.

In the case of a tie - both 10,000 BTC payments arrive at the same time - she will simply represent both of you!

EDIT:  Oops, forgot to mention that the time of the payment arrival would be UTC time.  Got to make that perfectly clear.

PM me for the payment address.

Or not.

Goat,

I have stated several times I am very content with where the coins actually ended up, though discontent that they were not originally given to me.  You have a good heart.

The truth is, yes, I would like those 5 BTC back, but seeing as I have already acquired 7 BTC out of the deal (2 more than I asked for), I have agreed to give 2 BTC back to OldEnginner if he agrees to send them to the kind people that sent me 1 BTC each.

If you would like to send 5 BTC, then send them over to the Bitcoinica guy.  He sent me 5 BTC out of his own good will, and they were not the 5 BTC I think I earned.  Otherwise, keep them. 

And, obviously orphans need them more than I do.  You weren't being serious in suggesting I thought the opposite, were you?

Just sent 2 BTC to 1NWShYZFYVRd18ayvhZUdiW77HVqLKuRtG  (OldEngineer).

you haven't won anything in that contest and you won't. if you're proud of your defense - it has failed (miserably)
only thing you've managed to achieve defending your position is to alienate yourself from the community for the price of few btc

He clearly has a mental disorder that makes that concept impossible to grasp.

Actually, I'm a counselor in an adult psychiatric unit  ;D

I might actually get intern of the year.

Add it to my 4.0, my beautiful girlfriend (who just had a photo shoot), and my great group of friends, and I'd say I'm doing quite well, thanks :)

Alienating myself from the bitcoin community is a tad ironic, don'tcha think?  I think we both know very well what "type" of person is most often found in the community...

that's what they tell you there to keep you calm  ;D

....this thread has gotten way out of hand... suing over 5 bitcoins?! dude... think about what you're doing here O.o
edit: Sorry, misread things and thought the joint was suing. lol

Goat, I believe that since you won the game that makes you an expert at the game.  Therefore, you should start thinking about how much you wish to charge for your expert witness fees during the upcoming courtroom drama.

http://www.excusememe.com/pics/imagebase/5208.gif

 ::)

AND by sending 2BTC to old_engineer you admit that this thread was wrong from the start.   IMO you still owe an apology to old_engineer

Hah, this is the same guy who gets "free" electricity and was even trying to sell some of the space for others to run their mining rigs.  Karma really is a bitch.  

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=52523.0

You truly haven't thoroughly read anything I said , have you?

Nothing wrong with that.  Offer is still on the table.

That's an excellent idea, considering you don't read what anyone else says.
/ignore

After reading this thread, I have no problem believing that you feel entitled to "free" electricity and would sell it for your own profit/greed.

I have no problem sending him the 2 BTC because I only earned 5 BTC...I didn't earn 7 BTC.  I wanted to repay the other 2 people who sent me 1 BTC apiece so I told OldEngineer to give it to them.

The only thing I will apologize for is initially putting "Old Engineer Screwed me out of 5 BTC" as the thread title before quickly changing it to "I Think Old Engineer Screwed me out of 5 BTC."  I'm careful with language and the "I think" not only makes a big difference, but it is the most accurate statement, because I think I am correct.

Additionally, I've stated multiple times that I'm happy the BTC were sent to orphans and that I have no problem with Old Engineer outside of this context, even though he threatened to sue me.

you have NOT EARNED anything.
your guess was close. that's about it

You know, I'm reminded of a thread long ago in which some guy stated he was thinking of killing himself and posted some pictures of medications he had available to take in order to kill himself.  He was asking for donations to feel better.

Almost every person in the community that responded on the thread was negative, either encouraging him to do it, or calling him a loser, or calling him selfish etc.  

I sent him some BTC and told him his life was valuable and that I hoped he would stay.

I also have many posts condemning scams (this was not a scam as I have mentioned several times), condemning Bruce Wagner, condemning SolidCoin which was a horribly unfair currency in the way it was implemented, etc.

I have been generally consistent in my thinking, have made multiple successful marketplace exchanges offering both goods and services to very pleased customers who made comments like "overall awesome," have purchased Bitcoin goods or services,  recently completed a Bitcoin Essay to be published and for which I was hired, etc.

I have thrown out topics that are completely unique and original, even dating back to when I was a newbie.

I've contributed to this community and this marketplace and have always been a proponent of fairness.

It's become blatantly obvious that very few, if any, have truly understood my arguments, and even more obvious that people continue to infer emotional or rational content that was completely absent from what I actually said.

So which is it? You are either a poor college student, or a counselor of the year at an adult psychiatric unit.

Harvey is a bright guy, and the community condemned him for his unique style of thinking, too.  Just because I, like many of you, disagreed with a lot of what he said, I don't consider the way in which he said it offputting.  It's simply his style.

I bet if you talked with him in person he might sound a lot different.  Now, this is the only online forum I've ever been a part of, but I have the suspicion that many of you have spend a significant amount of time communicating with others digitally and have forgotten that you can't pick up on things like facial expression, body language, tone of voice, etc.

I do extremely well socially.  I have absolutely no problem building rapport with people face-to-face, but I do often find this is more difficult for me to do digitally.  And, I find this is because people continually think I'm saying things that I absolutely never said and in ways that I absolutely didn't intend to say them.

Or both.  I don't get paid to be an intern and I'm in debt many tens of thousands of dollars because of student loans.  But I do have a 4.0, I may get intern of the year, and I have a litany of other accolades including dean's scholarship awards for outstanding scholastic achievement and otherwise.  I'm poor (in wealth) now, but my future looks incredibly prosperous.  

I wouldn't normally bring up old posts like that but considering the current discussion it seemed relavant (I also didn't hunt it down I remembered you posting that). I won't get into that whole discussion since it's off topic, but it shows a certain mindset. I also read this thread in its entirety before it was moved and edited, and it was very confrontational. The original title set the tone for the whole post. So maybe I'm biased.  

Your argument doesn't work, people don't agree with it. Instead of constantly saying the same thing and letting this carry on for 9 pages, maybe try a different approach. Just saying. Only crazy people do the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. Maybe you should try arguing that Oldengineer should have locked and made a new thread (thread starters can lock their own threads). Which is creating a new contest, where all contestants can be reasonably assumed to be playing under the same rules. The current contest was rigged against several people who don't like to read long threads of nothing but dates (surprise surprise!). There are lots of ways to debate things and try to change people's minds.

That said, you are nothing like Atlas and I do think you are a good person(poster). Everyone has their flaws. Don't let it get you down, in real life I'd call you out on this as well, but I'd buy you a beer and show you the catapult I'm making afterwards.  

Dear The Joint,

I have understood your arguments in so far as I believe you answered my questions honestly. The facts have been laid out. It is now a matter of opinion. By now, you must realize that irrespective of your conviction, the majority disagrees not with the facts, but with their implications. You have entered the realm of philosophy and morals. At the moment your morals and fitness for society are being seriously questioned by your peers.

Your ignorance of international standards and common norms does not justify your position.

Perhaps your are a foreigner in the culture of the internet or a child who has not yet received the rites of passage into adulthood. May this thread be the slap in your face. Be a man. Accept defeat. Learn your lessons. Join the community of seemingly irrational norms. And be thankful for your peers. The onus is on you to learn and adapt, not to change your social environment.

Sincerely,
Netrin

To Bad Bear and Netrin,

Thank you, I will put further thought into it.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=55391.0