Trading has become too much akin to gambling. Let's embrace it

[Botnake]

I personally wouldn't bet on BTC(or altcoin) prices, because I don't find it interesting. Binary options are considered illegal in many jurisdictions.

Yeah, that could be illegal, which is why the casinos offering such options are usually the ones that don’t require KYC. Since they’re already not operating legally, whatever they offer is likely illegal as well. But just like you, I’m not interested in binary options either. I actually tried it back in 2016 when one of the sites here had a signature campaign, but I found it boring.

[Z390]

Gambling based on the fluctuating price of Bitcoin is highly risky to me compared to normal gambling, I think I will still prefer to use a centralised exchange for high risk trade and that is because I can still manage to lower my risk even with very high leverage.
I am surprised that no one is talking about the tools available on centralised exchanges for taking trades, the chances of winning is there if you know how to use them, but just blindly predicting the price of Bitcoin in an hours time feels too risky to me.

[Raflesia]

Similar does not mean the same, all of them have the risk of both gambling and trading both have things that cannot be guaranteed accurate predictions, but in the struggle trading you can maintain your position by increasing the amount of liquidity of your position to hold your position so that it is not isolated or hit by a margin call .

In the past, I had also been in the perception that the futures trading was a gambling but after I explored, the fact was not like that, we only did not understand the mechanism as a whole, how we can revenue it in trade, except binary trade, I am very sure that it Just like gambling.

good sentence my friend, indeed these two things are almost similar but it does not mean that the same is true. There are similarities between these two things, namely the existence of losses and profits that can be obtained, only trading can be done well with sufficient knowledge so that it can provide profits that can be said to be certain, while with gambling, no matter how good the skills are, it does not guarantee that you will be able to get a profit, but both of these things are inseparable from luck too.

it is difficult to determine which is more profitable because maybe if we talk about profit, it depends on each person's luck and skills, but for now there are so many people whose lives are ruined because of gambling, although there are also those who do trading who go bankrupt but the number is lower.

[mammusu]

Isn't this a Binary Option?  Well, I think it is worth to try if any gambling platform where I play offers this kind of service.  I think if one is so keen on the Bitcoin price movement, this gambling on the fluctuation of price of Bitcoin will surely give that person an advantage.  This is like a skill-based gambling where the insight and prediction skill of a person is tested.

Yeah it's similar to binary option where you choose to bet low or high for short period of time.

I don't really sure if it's a skill based games because when the price just move like $100 or 0.1%, you could lose, the price movement is unpredictable, not to mention which sites that Rollbit use for their futures.

The price movement from one exchange to other could be different.

Binary options trading is indeed similar to gambling because it relies more on Speculation without in-depth analysis in determining the options we take, on the contrary, futures trading Requires a deeper understanding of the market and more complex analysis to deetermine the right strategy, but between the two trading options, I think Spot trading is the most appropriate trading option for us, because actually spot trding is a good first step to learn the basics of trading, including to understand how the market works and how to do technical and fundamental analysis, so that It can be a good capital if we want to try to do future trading.

[bangjoe]

Similar does not mean the same, all of them have the risk of both gambling and trading both have things that cannot be guaranteed accurate predictions, but in the struggle trading you can maintain your position by increasing the amount of liquidity of your position to hold your position so that it is not isolated or hit by a margin call .

In the past, I had also been in the perception that the futures trading was a gambling but after I explored, the fact was not like that, we only did not understand the mechanism as a whole, how we can revenue it in trade, except binary trade, I am very sure that it Just like gambling.

good sentence my friend, indeed these two things are almost similar but it does not mean that the same is true. There are similarities between these two things, namely the existence of losses and profits that can be obtained, only trading can be done well with sufficient knowledge so that it can provide profits that can be said to be certain, while with gambling, no matter how good the skills are, it does not guarantee that you will be able to get a profit, but both of these things are inseparable from luck too.

it is difficult to determine which is more profitable because maybe if we talk about profit, it depends on each person's luck and skills, but for now there are so many people whose lives are ruined because of gambling, although there are also those who do trading who go bankrupt but the number is lower.

Anything in the journey of life is indeed inseparable from an event that is mentioned that luck is a factor X in a journey of human life, but luck itself will not come if you don't do any efforts, just like you find money on the road, you don't Will find it if you don't wake up from your bed then take a walk out of the house.

Gambling is the mechanism as we do not know what happened after taking a bet on a form of activity, we only guess and apply in a relatively short time count to see the results, talking who is more loss, it is true that gamblers lose more money than Traders, with notes they have the same time to study their fields.

[fullhdpixel]

But still casinos can ask KYC to their members so that will be the same as if you trade on the exchanges. Well, that will not be a problem for me whether I trade on the exchanges or casino but so far, I am not trade in the casino and only use exchanges. I still feel comfortable trading in the exchanges than casino because exchanges is the right place to trade while casino is the right place to playing gambling. But if some people want to try to trade in the casino, that will be up to them but they must responsible with what they will do.

Yes. Even though there are also decentralized services but I think many casinos now still don't ask a KYC, or don't mandate it compared to the trading exchanges. It can be because gambling is mostly created for fun purposes while trading exchanges are the ones who are primarily built for money / money making purposes. Each platform has its own set of rules apart from KYC and some of it may be awkward to us if ever we interchange one activity (Example, trade on a casino, or vice versa).

[stompix]

Trading crypto has always been gambling!
Everyone saying otherwise just doesn't want to admit they are gamblers, trading crypto has nothing to do with trading forex options which relies on decisions by government and central banks about their currency, and has nothing to do with stocks that are influenced by the economy and the performance of the company in revenues and profits, trading crypto is just based on prayers something happens or for the scalpers on nothing happening.
Every single TA has been thrown in the trash next day, every pattern has been broken, every single time people tried to find one tweet from a celebrity or a politician and chaos was all around.

So why not gamble at a casino, after all betting on Musk saying something about Doge is the same as buying doge futures.

No KYC, no regulatory restrictions as imposed on traditional markers, unlimited leverage... You name it.

No KYC? You wish!

[Hispo]

Trading crypto has always been gambling!
Everyone saying otherwise just doesn't want to admit they are gamblers, trading crypto has nothing to do with trading forex options which relies on decisions by government and central banks about their currency, and has nothing to do with stocks that are influenced by the economy and the performance of the company in revenues and profits, trading crypto is just based on prayers something happens or for the scalpers on nothing happening.
Every single TA has been thrown in the trash next day, every pattern has been broken, every single time people tried to find one tweet from a celebrity or a politician and chaos was all around.

So why not gamble at a casino, after all betting on Musk saying something about Doge is the same as buying doge futures.

No KYC, no regulatory restrictions as imposed on traditional markers, unlimited leverage... You name it.

No KYC? You wish!

I kind of disagree with you, it is true most of shitcoins and memecoins are just a vehicle for people in the cryptocurrency market to gamble their money away, though when comes to Bitcoin, Ethereum and other blue chip alternative currencies, there are factors which definitely affect their value in the market, which can be predictible and used by traders to make a profit off those factors... being the most obvious one of them (in the case of Bitcoin) the programmed halving and the amount of hash rate there is in the network, obviously, after halvings there is a tendency for Bitcoin to start to raise in value. Trading can be turned into gambling if one is not careful and abuse of tools like leverage in the future markets, but it does not have to be that way necessarily. There are people who will just stick to the spot market and not use leverage.

[o48o]

-cut-
Would you gamble on casino games that are based around the real fluctuations of BTC's price?

I would say no, because i can already use exchanges for that. There aren't any benefits for me to gamify it any more.

I have been considering it as gambling for a long time, especially high leverage trading. People used to call Okcoin (OKX these days) as OkCasino, because of the high leverage. And some ogs were calling themselves as degenerate gamblers. Some of it were ironic, but some of it i am sure, to make sure that people wouldn't see them as financial advisors.

But if you are looking as No KYC as a key factor, you might want to wrap things up in those places, because regulatory compliance is coming to everywhere. There's no stopping it, so enjoy no kyc for now, but prepare for envitable kyc in the future.

[STT]

Consumer based trading and gambling has similar laws in some places, both are risk based choices for adults to possibly gain or lose from and so theres more similar then dissimilar I think.

I used to have accounts with a sports and finance based broker, got the same credit given with both up until a few years back then it got more regulated and promotions discouraged so they had to retract what was a really good deal.  Used to send me stuff on my birthday, free hedges free bets now nothing sadly.

The OP idea is not unheard of and I hope it propagates, its possible but how possible will vary by country and the laws governing I guess.

[stompix]

I kind of disagree with you, it is true most of shitcoins and memecoins are just a vehicle for people in the cryptocurrency market to gamble their money away, though when comes to Bitcoin, Ethereum and other blue chip alternative currencies, there are factors which definitely affect their value in the market, which can be predictible and used by traders to make a profit off those factors... being the most obvious one of them (in the case of Bitcoin) the programmed halving and the amount of hash rate there is in the network, obviously, after halvings there is a tendency for Bitcoin to start to raise in value.

As a miner I can tell you that hashrate has nothing to do with price, price is the one dictating the hashrate, higher prices higher revenues higher hashrate as miners buy more gear to make more profits, if hashrate would do anything to the price then it would be pretty simple, we all would just buy gear and the price would go up, well, not that simple!

Second, no, bitcoin didn't act like any blue chip company at all, one clear example is how it behaves when it touches round prices, you always have a back and forth as people take profits and so on, like now with 100k, like it was with 100 and 10 000, this thing doesn't happen for companies, but most importantly, there is no pattern in it, you don't have anything to actually trade based on other than your guts of it going up, there is no number from which to start your TA other that past experience, and we all know how that went.

Trading cryptos is gambling, it's just the ego of traders that denies it.

 

[Cryptmuster]

Consumer based trading and gambling has similar laws in some places, both are risk based choices for adults to possibly gain or lose from and so theres more similar then dissimilar I think.

I used to have accounts with a sports and finance based broker, got the same credit given with both up until a few years back then it got more regulated and promotions discouraged so they had to retract what was a really good deal.  Used to send me stuff on my birthday, free hedges free bets now nothing sadly.

The OP idea is not unheard of and I hope it propagates, its possible but how possible will vary by country and the laws governing I guess.

For me, trading and gambling are quite different, because in gambling there is always a luck factor, you can bet on a team that will dominate and attack the whole match, but the opponent will catch them on the counterattack and they will lose this match, and everything will end quickly, the game lasts no more than two halves. In trading, I will not allow a deal in which luck can decide something, I make significantly fewer deals in trading than bets in betting, and each deal is under my control, I do not allow big losses, I do not even see the point in comparing all this because these are different things for me.

[Dr.Bitcoin_Strange]

Gambling based on the fluctuating price of Bitcoin is highly risky to me compared to normal gambling, I think I will still prefer to use a centralised exchange for high risk trade and that is because I can still manage to lower my risk even with very high leverage.
I am surprised that no one is talking about the tools available on centralised exchanges for taking trades, the chances of winning is there if you know how to use them, but just blindly predicting the price of Bitcoin in an hours time feels too risky to me.

Yeah, I do agree that it's too risk to gamble on it and I have before now mentioned that, while trading on centralized exchange, you can have a lowered risk that can at least protect your asset from being totally liquidated but if perhaps one is betting on the price of Bitcoin, there's no risk management because the moment a player's prediction is wrong, the amount staked is lost.

[Hispo]

...
As a miner I can tell you that hashrate has nothing to do with price, price is the one dictating the hashrate, higher prices higher revenues higher hashrate as miners buy more gear to make more profits, if hashrate would do anything to the price then it would be pretty simple, we all would just buy gear and the price would go up, well, not that simple!

Actually when I talked about the relation between the hash rate and the price of Bitcoin I wanted to transmit there are some cases in which a high or low hash rate can also influence the price, due to the security of a decentralized network being a driving factor to the price of it... For example, of the hash rate of the Bitcoin main network started to go down and down, that would be translated in a deficiency of security against attacks to it, is that correct? So some traders would feel prompted to exit their positions in exchanges to deter risks of the coins losing value.
It is very unlikely that ever will happen to Bitcoin, because the strength of this community, but it is the case in small coins, I am sure it happened to Ethereum classic a couple of years ago when nobody was taking the hassle to mine it and miner went for Ethereum instead.

Anyways, Thanks for your insight as a miner, I am not a miner so I am just giving my own opinion, which could be less informed than yours...

[Sandra_hakeem]

WTF does OP mean by trading is much akin to gambling? Oh, why don't we all just hop on a casino and gamble instead?.. I'm gonna say, it depends on what you're trading on/against. This has always been a long standing postulation anyway so I'm not surprised...

Trading cryptos is gambling, it's just the ego of traders that denies it.

Could you atleast make some specificities to this, Stompix?
meanwhile, binary sucks.. I wouldn't even recommend that to my worst enemy. So, whenever a topic like this is raised, all I can think of is the sudden disappearance of a wiggy but short candle that should have made its way up the trend.

[Huppercase]

.
Anyway, I think more casinos should follow the path of what Rollbit has been doing with its virtual futures and offer gambling services based on the BTC price. There could be several advantages. No KYC, no regulatory restrictions as imposed on traditional markers, unlimited leverage... You name it.
Maybe even there could be some algorithmic memecoin releases. Maybe you're one of the lucky ones that get 10x or one of the unlucky ones that get rugged.

Would you gamble on casino games that are based around the real fluctuations of BTC's price?

The same way you see Binance been force to close some users account from a particular jurisdiction, is the same way the government can attack any gambling casino that involves trading features on their platforms. As long as KYC is mandatory for such activities, they have to follow regulations and laws of the country that licensed them, anything other than that means they have violate the rules and regulations of that country and they can be sue the way CZ was arrested for allowing money laundering in Binance.

Trading might be a lucrative business but there is more to just starting it, anyone can just launch their casino and do what they like but you can't do the same when it comes to trading, people can bring money to any casino and waste such money but no government overlook how funds are been sent in and out of any trading exchange, if will spark more reactions and fear if a casino you trust is been accused of money laundering. However, if the casino is ready to abide by the strick rules, it's a good initiative.

[I_Anime]

Trading with lavarages without any good knowledge on how trading works is indeed gambling, because at that moment you don't even know what is going on in the market, all you care about is how to print out some large amount of money so you be jumping in and out of different trades and keep losing, hoping to hit the trade that will Sky rocket your funds X10 , because while others are busy analysis you are busy looking for coin that you can jump into and make some bucks and after everything you endup losing everything.

[ethereumhunter]

Yes. Even though there are also decentralized services but I think many casinos now still don't ask a KYC, or don't mandate it compared to the trading exchanges. It can be because gambling is mostly created for fun purposes while trading exchanges are the ones who are primarily built for money / money making purposes. Each platform has its own set of rules apart from KYC and some of it may be awkward to us if ever we interchange one activity (Example, trade on a casino, or vice versa).

As long as you know the limit not to do KYC, you can playing gambling without thinks about KYC. But the problem is many gamblers don't think about that so when the casino ask to them to do KYC, they refuse that because they say that they only gambling for fun. If they realize from beginning that someday, the casino can ask KYC to them, they will prepare and ready with that and will not refuse because that is the casino rules for their members. But that will be different if you use the exchanges where you must KYC your account to use all of their feature and could withdraw without a problem.

[summonerrk]

I'm assuming everyone here already knows how volatile crypto markets are and how much of a risk it is to trade there. I'm not going to delve deep on that topic because I consider it a given already. However I'm getting a sense that in spite of the great demand to make risky trades on crypto, casinos tend to ignore it too much.

I remember a few years ago binary options on BTC/USD were quite popular.
These days billions of USD are put towards leveraged futures, and now with markets opening futures and options on Bitcoin ETFs, institutional investors will also have access to very risky positions on BTC right from their broker.

However, these markets have several restrictions. On most brokers you can't get margined leverage above 5x and/or many territories don't even allow for brokers to offer options to the general public. Let alone the fact that people from many countries aren't even allowed to sign up to crypto exchanges because of arbitrary reasons like for example Israel pressuring Binance to close the accounts of people just for being Arab.

Anyway, I think more casinos should follow the path of what Rollbit has been doing with its virtual futures and offer gambling services based on the BTC price. There could be several advantages. No KYC, no regulatory restrictions as imposed on traditional markers, unlimited leverage... You name it.
Maybe even there could be some algorithmic memecoin releases. Maybe you're one of the lucky ones that get 10x or one of the unlucky ones that get rugged.

Would you gamble on casino games that are based around the real fluctuations of BTC's price?

In my opinion, there is no point in organizing casinos that in any way have mechanisms based on the movement of cryptocurrencies. Because the exchanges already provide a wide range of instruments, including leverage as you said. There are futures and many other things that even few people know all these instruments. And alcohol trading itself is still a gambling activity. Therefore, I believe that casinos should remain a place with bright games, and exchanges are a serious activity, which in general is not correct to compare with gambling. Trading is not addictive at all, and has a low percentage of luck.

[stompix]

~

Actually when I talked about the relation between the hash rate and the price of Bitcoin I wanted to transmit there are some cases in which a high or low hash rate can also influence the price, due to the security of a decentralized network being a driving factor to the price of it... For example, of the hash rate of the Bitcoin main network started to go down and down, that would be translated in a deficiency of security against attacks to it, is that correct?

In theory!
In practice, it never actually happened, and it's pretty hard for it to happen this way.
First, it's hard for the hashrate to drop because of the advancement in chips efficiency, so 3 miners might quit but one might replace his asics and there you go, same hashrate, then there is the delay between the orders and actual receiving the miners, people order when it's profitable, 3 months pass, you get the gear you have nothing to do but mine!

So some traders would feel prompted to exit their positions in exchanges to deter risks of the coins losing value.

Ethereum Classic was successfully 51% attacked more than 4 times, the coin is still alive, so.....traders might not focus on the security aspects of a coin!  

Trading cryptos is gambling, it's just the ego of traders that denies it.

Could you atleast make some specificities to this, Stompix?

Simple example:
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58707641
When a hamster manages to make money from trading crypto, one can't keep saying it's about knowledge and not luck!