Financial Independence Retire Early [F.I.R.E]

[JayJuanGee]

retired options (meaning remaining retired) is not to go back to work, as obviously you are not retired if you are working

Obviously, you lack nuance in your proclamations.

retired options are to: stay home, or do chores, hobbies, or go travelling, socialising and other life stuff.. not involving work*
 
*work: obligated labour in exchange for income

Maybe I can give some example?  not that it is going to change the mind of a dogmatist like you, Franky1, but here goes.

I am in the process of minding my own business, and perhaps consuming a few hookers, lambos and blow, and go out on a day trip (such as a picnic and a hike into the hills and then a swim at the beach), and so on the way back to one of my yachts, I decide to stop by the steak and lobster place to grab a bite and maybe warm up the atmosphere for a later midnight snack, and while I am in the steak house, I bump into one of my old friends from college (or high school), and I decide to invite him to have some steak and lobster and buy him a drink, since it has been a year or more since we had seen each other.  In the process of our conversation, I find out that in the next couple of days he is going to be moving, and I also find out that he had been buying bitcoin, yet he was still confused about how to store his bitcoin, and he describes some of his BTC buying practices to me. Maybe I spend more than an hour talking with the guy as we are chowing down on our meal and enjoying our drinks, and after such conversation, I decide that I am going to want to spend some more time with the guy, so I offer to help him move, and I suggest to him that we should also get together within the month and go over various aspects of bitcoin, so I consider that such future meetings will be good for both of us.

A month later, it ends up being that I had spent a couple of days helping the guy move, and I even ended up helping him to paint one of his bedrooms, and I ended up calling one of my construction buddies so that the construction buddy could change two of his doors, add a shower door to one of his bathtubs and add a closet to one of his bedrooms.  I also ended up meeting with him twice to go over various bitcoin related matters, which also involved my giving him assignments on the first meeting so that we would be able to go into more depth in our second meeting.

At the end of the month, after our 4th or 5th meeting, I suggested that we should stay in touch more, and my friend told me that he was really happy with how much he had benefitted from our meetings, and he said that he was not sure exactly how to pay me back, and I told him that I did not really care either way if he paid me back or not.  He told me that he would think about how he was going to pay me back, and he would get back with me about that, and I repeated that it does not really matter to me, either way.

About two weeks later, the guy contacted me, and he said that he wanted to meet for lunch sometime, and so we arranged a lunch, and at the lunch he gave me $2k in cash, $5k in bitcoin (after I showed him a bitcoin receiving address) and 7-day cruise tickets for two persons (with open dates to be used within a year to a destination that we had previously discussed to be of an interesting potential for me) that were valued around $5k.  I told him that he did not need to buy me anything, and he said that he really valued my help in those matters, and he thinks that he had gotten more value from our exchange rather than the value that I had gotten, and so he wanted to compensate me for the value that he perceived himself to have had been getting.  

He told me about our mutual friend who also could use similar kind of help, and he suggested that in the coming months that we meet up with our mutual friend to help him in similar kinds of ways, which implied that the compensation would be similar.  I told him that I would get back with him about my thoughts on the matter of the mutual friend, about whether I wanted to do it, and if so how it might fit into my schedule.  He said o.k., and about two weeks later, I got back with him and proposed a schedule in which I largely accepted our planned future project, and with a kind of implication that either he or our friend would probably end up insisting on paying me some kind of a similar amount.

you keep asserting that going back to work or continuing to work is somehow retiring/being retired, when you keep insanely determining that people can be in work whilst in FIRE status

Sure.  That is more or less correct in regards to what I am asserting.

the FI is important if you want full financial independence(FI) to make ANY choice INCLUDING returning to or continuing work.. but adding the RE means you chose to retire and do life stuff instead, not work stuff

It seems quite likely that you go wrong in your trying to determine what is "work" versus "life" stuff, and surely I could concede that there could be some people who deceive themselves in regards to their own self-descriptions in regards to their level of financial independence and how it might apply to their abilities to say fuck you regarding any work relation that they might enter, which implies that sometimes the voluntariness of the involvement of any supposed financially independent person in any such work that he agrees to perform could be more compromised than such persons are willing to admit.

Perhaps you and I differ in how much weight or how much we want to get into details in regards to figuring out the extent to which the activities of purportedly financially independent persons are voluntary or not, and it seems that I hardly give too many shits about those kinds of details, and you want to jump in and proclaim those kinds of details as if they are deal breakers and/or that they eliminate certain persons from self-proclaiming as being in fuck you status or FIRE status or filthy rich status or whatever merely because they are not jumping through appropriate Frank1 definitional hoops.

i dont care if you personally want to work after you reach FI (your F U status) but dont describe yourself as retired whilst still affirming that you are working, it makes no sense

You also make little sense, so there is that angle, too.  

 

though from time to time, to the extent that you are not bordering on annoying, you do provide some humor in your ongoing insistences upon your own definitional and quasi-psychotic frameworks.

as for your last paragraph, you could have just said you dont want to be part of(what you call) a 'dumb acronym' of FIRE. and instead you just want to reach the FI status and continue to have the philosophy to work if you want to
there is no problem and i have no problem with you just wanting to be FI

I am glad that I received your permission regarding the conditions upon I might be allowed to include the RE portion into my own self-descriptions.  

At the same time, I am not sure if my behaviors are going to change very much, since sometimes there can be questions in regards to which projects to take on or to get into, and surely some projects could involve some receiving money back rather than just paying into them, and some projects might also require additional work from me in order to do them, or they might involve some contracting of labor of others that may or may not involve some money coming back to me based on the efforts of those other people I had contracted to help me with such projects... which even the 30 unit apartment that I had described earlier has an income generating component to it, even if my goals might not have had been to make money from it, yet I am not going to complain if aspects of the project pay for itself, too..

Another example could be that I really like going to a bar/restaurant that is in my neighborhood, and one day I go to the bar/restaurant and the owner tells me about some of his personal issues that contribute towards his inabilities to continue to operate the bar/restaurant.  He describes to me that in the past few years, his management of the bar/restaurant has been in the ballpark of 4-10 hours per week and he also shares the bar/restaurant finances with me, which show it to be ongoingly profitable and largely self sustaining.. not quite passive income, but pretty close to it in terms of how much work (implying the 4-10 hours per week) might be required.  He asserts that due to his own personal circumstances, he is going to have to sell the bar/restaurant which truly would run a likely risk that the bar/restaurant would end up changing into something else.. and so within that discussion, I decide that I am going buy the bar.  Surely it is already contemplated that I may well be adding 4-10 hours of work to my weekly life, yet I also may well already have systems in place in which I am able to delegate that 4-10 hours of work and continue to get the benefits of the restaurant to stay within similar practices as it had been, even though I would have the burden of transitioning into being an owner of that bar/restaurant rather than merely a customer of it..
 

but the philosophy of FIRE is about the retiring part, as thats what the RE intended meaning is....

Could be that you are correct, but it also could be that we disagree in regards to how much weight to ascribe to the RE portion of such self-classification and/or how we choose to talk about it.. Does that mean that we are largely engaging in a semantical, rather than substantive, argument?  Could be? Could be?

any way
your weird redefinitions of common sense terms has just dramatised this topic more then it needs to

Speak for yourself.  

getting back to the topic
working a normal job thats not sufficiently paid wont get you any significant chance to become FI or enter FIRE status

It depends on the quantity of discretionary income and it also may well depend upon how such discretionary income is invested.  Investing into bitcoin has proven to be a really great place to put value and to end up receiving disproportionate payouts.

Both you and I  (not trying to presume too much about your particulars) are likely great examples of abilities to invest potentially modest amounts into bitcoin and to potentially benefit in disproportionately grand ways.

Let's just go by our proclaimed times of entering into bitcoin rather than the details of our own particular circumstances, and in accordance with your forum registration date, sure you likely could have had gotten into bitcoin in 2012, yet let's just go with a worser-case scenario date, such as using my own timeframe of entering into bitcoin, and let's say that a normal person got into bitcoin right around the same time as me, in late 2013 (and using December 1 as our start date), and if such person modestly invested right around $100 per week into bitcoin from December 1, 2013 until present, such person would have had invested right around $58k into bitcoin over such time, and up until now, such person would have had accumulated right in the ballpark of 46.33 BTC, and surely there are a lot of persons who could have had participated in a fairly normal job and amassed $100 per week for the accumulation of bitcoin over the past 11-ish years, no?  You surely cannot be saying that having 46.33 BTC based on a $58k investment over the past 11 years had not amounted to an a sufficient about of wealth building in order to have had gotten to FIRE status?

Personally, I am not even proclaiming any need to rely upon current BTC spot prices in order to make my own proclamation that there are a decent number of normal people who could likely proclaim and enter into FIRE status based on a current accumulation of a BTC stash of 46.33 BTC, which has a 200-WMA valuation that is close to $2million, and a spot price valuation that is more than double that.  Whether they exercise the RE portion or not within Franky1 requisitions seems to be optional from my own perspective, and we can agree to disagree about the RE portion, yet I think that even you would have a hard time arguing that a normal person would not have had been able to accumulate enough wealth in the past 11-ish years, if he had chosen to focus on accumulating bitcoin during that time.   Sure, past results do not guarantee future results, yet if we are trying to make proclamations about where a person today might be, we likely have to consider past results in terms of assessing how they got to where they are at rather than projecting what any similarly situated normal person may or may not be able to do in terms of their choice to invest into bitcoin (or something else) in the upcoming 11 years-ish.

however investments that self accrue and grow at a better than inflation rate, can offer you better chances to reach FI or decide to enter FIRE status
bitcoin definitely helps, and proven has helped me and others already, and can help alot more yet to reach FI

At least, for the moment, until you may well come in and shift the goal posts, we seem to agree on these last couple of assertions of yours.

[edited out]

All that you've said make sense, really. It's true that many of the folks that did investments in some other things like in other assets that were doing well in the past but it didn't in the future. While some are putting money with their ROTH IRA and that's what they're leaning towards in the future for their retirement. Each of us for sure went through fire and tested by time and we're fortunate that we're into Bitcoin and this is no doubt the best asset, store of value by time if we'd look at the gains and growth of it. I agree that even with so little in Bitcoin holdings, anyone needs to take care of it until retirement or if that's the choice of anyone here like you and me not to spend all that we've got. Spend some but save more. This is totally what we can put as a candidate for a life changing investment into this era. I think we can say that we're also lucky that we're part of this generation and Bitcoin has came at the right time for most of us. It is imperative when someone who's got some BTC at the early days need to keep it at least 1 or even 0.1 BTC and make it as a goal whether it's for FIRE or some future goals, it just suits everyone's dreams and goals.

Sure, I cannot know your own historical BTC accumulation particulars, except maybe to the extent that you might want to disclose some of them, and at the same time, I will assert that it is not necessary to get too much into the particulars of any of us in order to attempt to describe a story or to make some points in regards to what role BTC accumulation might have had played in where we are at, how we got here and/or where we might be going from here.

Even your own forum registration date of early 2016 could have provided time for your to have had accumulated a decently good size BTC stash as compared with your own financial/psychological particulars, yet surely there are likely a lot of us who may or not have been in a very good situation to have had been able to accumulate as many bitcoin as we could have had accumulated or what we should have accumulated, so we have to figure out how we are going to go forward based on your own individual particulars as they are right now rather than getting too caught up upon any past mistakes that we might have had made in regards to our level of BTC accumulation aggressiveness.

It seems to me that anyone currently knowing about bitcoin and willing to take action to start to accumulate BTC as aggressively as they are able to do (without overdoing it) is in a way better position than persons who either don't know about bitcoin or they are not in a position in which they are ready, willing and able to act to accumulate bitcoin as aggressively  as they are able to do.

I do understand that there may well be people who are not able to invest into bitcoin because they are busy investing into themselves and/or investing into building job skills so that they can improve their future earnings, yet it still seems to me that anyone who knows about bitcoin is still going to be in a better position to figure out ways to invest time, energy and/or value into bitcoin, even if they might have some reasonably important and valuable competing interests.

I am a testament to this and will continue to do so in keeping a stack of Bitcoin. I've proved it to myself that there's the biggest part in my life that BTC did it all and I reckon this advise and hopefully others will be wise on doing their investments, I'm not saying that I am wise but sure JJG is.  

Of course, bitcoin is not guaranteed to continue to outperform traditional assets, so we have to figure how much of a balance we want to keep in each, even when we are spending from them, so perhaps if we start to get to the cashing out stage, we might end up drawing from each in some kind of proportioned level that helps us to feel comfortable in regards to how much value we are keeping in each or perhaps if we might choose to let the bitcoin portion grow more, even though the formula is not 100% true.

Recently I had been trying to talk a friend into delaying purchasing a house, since there was a trade off between putting the value into the house and keeping value in bitcoin, and such person did not listen to me, and surely it is not my choice to make.  

Many of us likely recall that a median house in 2015 may well have had cost us close to 1,000 bitcoin ($250k), and surely today, even if the median price of house might have more than doubled in the past 10 years, right now a median house of $500k to $1million, the contrast is strong, since such $500k to $1million house will cost us in the ballpark of 6 to 11 BTC, which truly is a big difference, and we don't even have to go that far back to make comparisons, since even in 2019, we might say that a $500k house may well have had cost us around 50 BTC, and so such trend is not necessarily guaranteed, yet we can figure out where we might want to put our value, and sure if we are intent on getting a house we can choose whether to get it now, or if we might want to wait a few years (if we might be able to, and at the same time, we are the one who has to live with the decision, whether we can reasonably recognize what might be for our own financial and/or psychological good or not).. We might not realize the ramifications of our choices until 3-5 years down the road when it may well no longer be an option for us to attempt to revisit our earlier decision..

I agree, if someone can delay the purchase of the house for at least one more cycle. He/she will have to sell fewer bitcoins while keeping the rest of it. But that's it, if it's in immediate action and there's a need to purchase that, that's fine, as long as the person doing that is happy. And like what people used to say, "take profits when happy". But still, don't forget to keep and save some for future references as Bitcoin is here to stay.

There are quite a few people who have come to realize that they overvalued real estate (such as buying their own residence) and they undervalued bitcoin in terms of how much bitcoin would continue to appreciate relative to property values.  There are still a lot of people mistakingly making those kinds of assessments.

[franky1]

retired options (meaning remaining retired) is not to go back to work, as obviously you are not retired if you are working

Obviously, you lack nuance in your proclamations.

retired options are to: stay home, or do chores, hobbies, or go travelling, socialising and other life stuff.. not involving work*
 
*work: obligated labour in exchange for income

Maybe I can give some example?  not that it is going to change the mind of a dogmatist like you, Franky1, but here goes.

I am in the process of minding my own business, and perhaps consuming a few hookers, lambos and blow, and go out on a day trip (such as a picnic and a hike into the hills and then a swim at the beach), and so on the way back to one of my yachts, I decide to stop by the steak and lobster place to grab a bite and maybe warm up the atmosphere for a later midnight snack, and while I am in the steak house, I bump into one of my old friends from college (or high school), and I decide to invite him to have some steak and lobster and buy him a drink, since it has been a year or more since we had seen each other.  In the process of our conversation, I find out that in the next couple of days he is going to be moving, and I also find out that he had been buying bitcoin, yet he was still confused about how to store his bitcoin, and he describes some of his BTC buying practices to me. Maybe I spend more than an hour talking with the guy as we are chowing down on our meal and enjoying our drinks, and after such conversation, I decide that I am going to want to spend some more time with the guy, so I offer to help him move, and I suggest to him that we should also get together within the month and go over various aspects of bitcoin, so I consider that such future meetings will be good for both of us.

A month later, it ends up being that I had spent a couple of days helping the guy move, and I even ended up helping him to paint one of his bedrooms, and I ended up calling one of my construction buddies so that the construction buddy could change two of his doors, add a shower door to one of his bathtubs and add a closet to one of his bedrooms.  I also ended up meeting with him twice to go over various bitcoin related matters, which also involved my giving him assignments on the first meeting so that we would be able to go into more depth in our second meeting.

At the end of the month, after our 4th or 5th meeting, I suggested that we should stay in touch more, and my friend told me that he was really happy with how much he had benefitted from our meetings, and he said that he was not sure exactly how to pay me back, and I told him that I did not really care either way if he paid me back or not.  He told me that he would think about how he was going to pay me back, and he would get back with me about that, and I repeated that it does not really matter to me, either way

About two weeks later, the guy contacted me, and he said that he wanted to meet for lunch sometime, and so we arranged a lunch, and at the lunch he gave me $2k in cash, $5k in bitcoin (after I showed him a bitcoin receiving address) and 7-day cruise tickets for two persons (with open dates to be used within a year to a destination that we had previously discussed to be of an interesting potential for me) that were valued around $5k.  I told him that he did not need to buy me anything, and he said that he really valued my help in those matters, and he thinks that he had gotten more value from our exchange rather than the value that I had gotten, and so he wanted to compensate me for the value that he perceived himself to have had been getting.  

none of this sounds like obligated employment
none of this sounds like work
it sounds like favours and chores and showing appreciation for friends

it seems you lack even knowledge of what WORK is.. vs doing a friend a favour and them repaying you some how
heck you even call your 'help' and helping a friend..
you didnt mention client, employer, customer

so its obvious that your example is not a form of obligated work for a contracted salary/income

He told me about our mutual friend who also could use similar kind of help, and he suggested that in the coming months that we meet up with our mutual friend to help him in similar kinds of ways, which implied that the compensation would be similar.  I told him that I would get back with him about my thoughts on the matter of the mutual friend, about whether I wanted to do it, and if so how it might fit into my schedule.  He said o.k., and about two weeks later, I got back with him and proposed a schedule in which I largely accepted our planned future project, and with a kind of implication that either he or our friend would probably end up insisting on paying me some kind of a similar amount.

again no obligation, no contract, no wording of customer, client, employer.. instead its all about helping a friend
none of this sounds like obligated employment

you keep asserting that going back to work or continuing to work is somehow retiring/being retired, when you keep insanely determining that people can be in work whilst in FIRE status

Sure.  That is more or less correct in regards to what I am asserting.

the FI is important if you want full financial independence(FI) to make ANY choice INCLUDING returning to or continuing work.. but adding the RE means you chose to retire and do life stuff instead, not work stuff

It seems quite likely that you go wrong in your trying to determine what is "work" versus "life" stuff, and surely I could concede that there could be some people who deceive themselves in regards to their own self-descriptions in regards to their level of financial independence and how it might apply to their abilities to say fuck you regarding any work relation that they might enter, which implies that sometimes the voluntariness of the involvement of any supposed financially independent person in any such work that he agrees to perform could be more compromised than such persons are willing to admit.

Perhaps you and I differ in how much weight or how much we want to get into details in regards to figuring out the extent to which the activities of purportedly financially independent persons are voluntary or not, and it seems that I hardly give too many shits about those kinds of details, and you want to jump in and proclaim those kinds of details as if they are deal breakers and/or that they eliminate certain persons from self-proclaiming as being in fuck you status or FIRE status or filthy rich status or whatever merely because they are not jumping through appropriate Frank1 definitional hoops.

i dont care if you personally want to work after you reach FI (your F U status) but dont describe yourself as retired whilst still affirming that you are working, it makes no sense

You also make little sense, so there is that angle, too.  

 

though from time to time, to the extent that you are not bordering on annoying, you do provide some humor in your ongoing insistences upon your own definitional and quasi-psychotic frameworks.

as for your last paragraph, you could have just said you dont want to be part of(what you call) a 'dumb acronym' of FIRE. and instead you just want to reach the FI status and continue to have the philosophy to work if you want to
there is no problem and i have no problem with you just wanting to be FI

im going to give up at this point at reading your endless walls of text of gibberish of you thinking that retirement is not retirement and how its actually still work
(facepalm: im starting to think you have no clue about many general common sense concepts in society)

may you enjoy your life of endlessly being committed to work until the day of our death..
may you enjoy never experiencing FIRE

the stupid thing is if you really think that fire is as you deceive yourself to believe it is. then in your technical view you are already in FIRE... BUT reality of common sense shows that you are not and you just do not understand much about what work is and what retirement is to know the difference

i do hope you change your mindset and one day reach a target goal to actually enter fire (common sense definition).. but until then.. continue confusing yourself

you had your chance to learn and be educated by someone thats actually living the real FIRE lifestyle.. but instead your ego has pushed your into your self belief of your delusions and not allowed yourself to be open to learning things.... yet again(multiple topics of proof)

you have no idea what FIRE is all about and it seems you have no intention to learn AND no intention to actually be part of FIRE in the future.. so just give up replying on the topic you know nothing about and dont want to know anything and dont want to ever be part of

but i do wish one day you do put your ego aside and learn the possibilities of a better life in the future and one day want to aim for it. instead of the actions you play around with right now

[stomachgrowls]

Some folks have more obstacles than others, and of course, the greater your income over your expenses, then the more you can invest and the greater could be your chances of expediting the process of actually reaching FIRE status, and so it could make a difference if you are able to invest $10 per week, $100 per week, $1,000 per week or some other amount in terms of making meaningful progress... including figuring out how much time that you have to do it.. 30-40 years? or some shorter period?  Of course, getting there faster would be nice, but you still have to work within your parameters and if you are able to improve your parameters.

Yes, whatever you said is very true and I fully agree with you. There are some people who start their journey from low income and overtime if they follow F.I.R.E path then they'll keep increasing their income overtime and may still reach financial independence in early age. Investing $10 is better than investing nothing per week and that $10 can turn into $20 or more when it's invested into a good asset like Bitcoin over the course of some years or months depending on its popularity.

The ones who started investing $10 or $20 per week into Bitcoin from 2015-2016 are still in enough profit and they might reach F.I.R.E status sooner than the ones who start investing in it from today, but after 10 years the ones who invested in it during 2015-2016, and the ones who started investing in it from today, both will win, and there's chance that both group of investors might be free from financial issues after next 10-20 years and they may retire earlier than their colleagues.

It all matters about mentality because if you dont really have any plans on your life when it comes to progress and changes then you would be finding things to be hard and on which this will really be that resulting that you will be just that contented on what you have now and be just that wanted to work until you do gets old. For those who had been thinking about on having a better future or simply having that freedom from 8-5 job then they will be that trying out the possible ways or methods that they can be able to dig into. Yes, its true that not all starting up on a good point because of some factors or challenges in life but it doesnt mean that you will be having that 0% of hitting success. You wouldn't know unless you do try. The common issue of human beings is that if they've seen that its on the impossible side then they wont be making any actions.

We are all that wishing on having that financial freedom  because we do know that we can do all sorts of things as long you do have the money with your own time or simply you are the own boss of your own time and could do whatever you do want but of course achieving this condition doesnt really come easy on which this one really involves tons of hard work and dedication and discipline in regarding time management,risk management, emotion management and other important factors on which this will be able to sustain you out along the way. It do really just that a matter of dedication and sticking into your plans no matter what hard condition that you are currently in.

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

none of this sounds like obligated employment
none of this sounds like work
it sounds like favours and chores and showing appreciation for friends

it seems you lack even knowledge of what WORK is.. vs doing a friend a favour and them repaying you some how
heck you even call your 'help' and helping a friend..
you didnt mention client, employer, customer

Oh gawd franky1.... 

You seem to be agreeing with me, but still unable to really agree.. .You seem to want to ongoingly nitpick about nearly irrelevant nonsense.

so its obvious that your example is not a form of obligated work for a contracted salary/income

Great.  We seem to kind of, sort of agree about something for a nanosecond.

He told me about our mutual friend who also could use similar kind of help, and he suggested that in the coming months that we meet up with our mutual friend to help him in similar kinds of ways, which implied that the compensation would be similar.  I told him that I would get back with him about my thoughts on the matter of the mutual friend, about whether I wanted to do it, and if so how it might fit into my schedule.  He said o.k., and about two weeks later, I got back with him and proposed a schedule in which I largely accepted our planned future project, and with a kind of implication that either he or our friend would probably end up insisting on paying me some kind of a similar amount.

again no obligation, no contract, no wording of customer, client, employer.. instead its all about helping a friend
none of this sounds like obligated employment

Oh?  So you don't seem to have any problem that we are going to agree to a schedule in advance, and it is quite likely that the guy is going to end up paying me?

Maybe I should just rejoice in our seeming agreement rather than attempting to undermine it?

you keep asserting that going back to work or continuing to work is somehow retiring/being retired, when you keep insanely determining that people can be in work whilst in FIRE status

Sure.  That is more or less correct in regards to what I am asserting.

the FI is important if you want full financial independence(FI) to make ANY choice INCLUDING returning to or continuing work.. but adding the RE means you chose to retire and do life stuff instead, not work stuff

It seems quite likely that you go wrong in your trying to determine what is "work" versus "life" stuff, and surely I could concede that there could be some people who deceive themselves in regards to their own self-descriptions in regards to their level of financial independence and how it might apply to their abilities to say fuck you regarding any work relation that they might enter, which implies that sometimes the voluntariness of the involvement of any supposed financially independent person in any such work that he agrees to perform could be more compromised than such persons are willing to admit.

Perhaps you and I differ in how much weight or how much we want to get into details in regards to figuring out the extent to which the activities of purportedly financially independent persons are voluntary or not, and it seems that I hardly give too many shits about those kinds of details, and you want to jump in and proclaim those kinds of details as if they are deal breakers and/or that they eliminate certain persons from self-proclaiming as being in fuck you status or FIRE status or filthy rich status or whatever merely because they are not jumping through appropriate Frank1 definitional hoops.

i dont care if you personally want to work after you reach FI (your F U status) but dont describe yourself as retired whilst still affirming that you are working, it makes no sense

You also make little sense, so there is that angle, too.  

 

though from time to time, to the extent that you are not bordering on annoying, you do provide some humor in your ongoing insistences upon your own definitional and quasi-psychotic frameworks.

as for your last paragraph, you could have just said you dont want to be part of(what you call) a 'dumb acronym' of FIRE. and instead you just want to reach the FI status and continue to have the philosophy to work if you want to
there is no problem and i have no problem with you just wanting to be FI

im going to give up at this point at reading your endless walls of text of gibberish of you thinking that retirement is not retirement and how its actually still work
(facepalm: im starting to think you have no clue about many general common sense concepts in society)

Great.  I win because franky1 gave up.   

may you enjoy your life of endlessly being committed to work until the day of our death..
may you enjoy never experiencing FIRE

Are you trying to be a BIG meanie?

the stupid thing is if you really think that fire is as you deceive yourself to believe it is. then in your technical view you are already in FIRE... BUT reality of common sense shows that you are not and you just do not understand much about what work is and what retirement is to know the difference

I am thinking that I was largely in FIRE since about late 2013, yet do I need to describe my whole life and my activities in order to convince you?

It's not like we are going to agree, and it is not like I have any desire to provide those kinds of details within the context of this topic, even if there have been various posts that I have described some of my various work, business, investment-related activities, yet frequently it still can become problematic to flesh out details that largely are not even very relevant to various overall points that are being made, especially since I had already explained several times that from my own point of view (and your seemingly ongoing disagreement) the FI  portion of our discussion remains way more important than getting into what may or may not constitute sufficiently adequate and/or meaningful kinds of RE activities (or non-activities).

i do hope you change your mindset and one day reach a target goal to actually enter fire (common sense definition).. but until then.. continue confusing yourself

It seems that I have been talking about this topic (at least the FI portion of it) for most of my time on the forum, even though also from my perspective, it is quite likely that my ideas have also been evolving during those 11-ish years, and I am not even convinced that my framework is insufficient for the consideration and ongoing discussing of the FIRE matter, even if you are proclaiming some particulars of the criteria (specifically the RE portion) to be more relevant than I have been allowing within my own framing and contemplation of the matter.

you had your chance to learn and be educated by someone thats actually living the real FIRE lifestyle.. but instead your ego has pushed your into your self belief of your delusions and not allowed yourself to be open to learning things.... yet again(multiple topics of proof)

Why can't we just agree to disagree rather than your wanting to proclaim a superior perspective on the matter?

It could well be that I am way too dumb to relate to your obviously superior perspective?  I might need to ponder from this angle further, and stop allowing my smug wannabe know-it-all-ness from continuing to get in the way and screw up my own ideas regarding the difference between work and not work.  Based on what little I am able to understand from your more enlightened viewpoint, it seems that my consideration of my own free-will needs to be drawn into question.

I might have to incorporate more yoga into my daily routine.  Daily pushups since last February are just not helping me to better understand myself and/or the extent to which my daily activities are work or not.. Probably a guy needs to better understand himself if he wants to attempt to relate to others, too.. Right?

you have no idea what FIRE is all about and it seems you have no intention to learn AND no intention to actually be part of FIRE in the future..

Ok... You got me.  I may well be trying to infiltrate FIRE by de-emphasizing the RE portion, so I am not really sure how to cause the RE to get added back into my way of thinking, especially since whatever you said has not been helping to make sure that I don't lose any more of the RE than what it seems that I had already lost in my prior corrupted mentality on the topic.

so just give up replying on the topic you know nothing about and dont want to know anything and dont want to ever be part of

Good thing that this is not a moderated thread, and good thing that you are not calling the shots in regards to what is relevant and what is not, including your own proclamations about what is a valid mental framework, especially since it could well be possible (if you ever did consider the matter?) that I might be more correct on the topic than you.  Did you ever think that could be possible?  Maybe we should spell it FIre rather than capitalizing all of the letters in the acronym.. .. Perhaps even FIre might be even better?  I am not 100% convinced either way, even though it is possible that your ongoing obsession about the RE portion may well have inadvertently highlighted an important discussion point.

but i do wish one day you do put your ego aside and learn the possibilities of a better life in the future and one day want to aim for it. instead of the actions you play around with right now

Hm?  There may well be times that my ego becomes a bit stronger than it needs to be, and surely I don't even consider myself to be a very strong-ego'ed person,  so sure it could well be true that sometimes the ego could get in the way, and some of us might not even realize that our ego is part of the problem.

How do you consider yourself and your own ego in regards to battling around forum ideas?  Do you consider yourself to be a forum member who does not let his ego to get in the way of his various discussion points? 

Surely, you consider yourself to be better at controlling your ego than me, and so maybe there could be a problem that I am one of those guys who happens to be the hero in his own journey, yet at the same time, I don't even realize how I am failing/refusing to adequately contemplate ideas outside of my own lil fantasies of the world? 

I am thinking the possibility that I better get working on myself, especially since I had not even realized how much I happen to be the problem that I have been trying to fix.. it is not you, it is me.  I think that you are absorbed into dogmatic definitions and nonsense, but I am just not giving your stupid-ass ideas enough time to resonate... I am jumping to conclusions and not really contemplating how RE is actually equally important as FI.. or at least in the ballpark of equal.

Maybe if I don't really want to do yoga, then perhaps stretching might at least start to lead me down a better path towards adjusting my mentality, even though I am not really going to want to give up my daily pushups?  At least, I am considering possible adjustments that might be within something that I may well be willing to add into the realm of possible. right?

[franky1]

i fully understand your philosophy is to be financially independent to have full choice/options to work or retire
being FI is one thing, and there are many topics about it,

but you have wasted many days and posts of lengthy text trying to presume retirement is inclusive of working

those that want to be in fire want to retire early and not work

you want to be in FI and have both options to work or not. i get it, no issues in regards to your desires for yourself to be financially independent

just stop with the silly walls of text pretending people that planned to retire and enter early retirement could, should, will work again but pretend to still remain in fire

and no silly games about pretending favours for friends is equal to employment, as that just puts you in a deeper misunderstanding of societal norms/common sense

back to the topic for those interested in FIRE

what most of whom yet to reach FIRE dont realise is when they do reach it their mindset does change
(as said before but interrupted) its like the christmas paradox and other things some might know about

if you are poor and unable to afford steak dinner/icecream desserts.. when you finally reach a sustainable living situation to afford steak/icecream daily, you suddenly dont have the excitement to want/enjoy steak/icecream daily as it will get boring
same for christmas the anticipation of objects is more exciting than the long term use of said products once you have them

your plans for owning 7 lambos and buying kilos of blow will change.. you might want to go clean and drive a suitable car
so keep it in mind when planning your retirement. plan for your priorities and desires to change. and dont fear change

i personally prefer to travel and explore new regions. i get more happiness tipping a underpaid waitress with amounts that ease their whole months finances, more so than impressing the neighbours with the latest lambo

alot of you think you cant retire unless your at a 2 mansion 7 lambo status. but here is the thing. you can retire early, for less
also you can have the wealth of the 7lambo 2 mansion status, but not need/want to buy such extravagance and thus leave the wealth invested to accumulate so that your offspring and descendants have better prospects

too many people think that you have to remain super frugal and live on beans and water even when in FIRE
too many people think that you have to risk it all to display richness by doing extravagant things

those are not the only 2 options of fire lifestyle.. if you plan a good target amount of financial freedom to then retire at a planned level of wealth/lifestyle of things that truly mean something to you, you can achieve a successful life in FIRE

[tottong]

The difference in how to live life in each person cannot be denied because it will always exist in every individual, but for those who continue to want to implement better life plans and patterns, they will definitely not talk much if their own goals have not been achieved. Because you yourself can also see that people who only prefer to talk without implementing a work plan for themselves are people who still have a lazy nature so that these people still often comment on the methods used by others, even though they themselves do not do anything.

That's how life goes and everyone has a different story in their own version, especially for the issue of financial achievement in living life in this world.
Humans are given reason to think and that is why we need to try to achieve success and the success of each person is different, what makes us the same is the way to fight to get that success.
Talking but not doing anything is the same as someone who doesn't have a life plan and usually this type of person finds it difficult to achieve success in finance because they don't fight to get it.

There is nothing to be afraid of in this life as long as we still have the ability to work and fix every step we take towards a better direction. Because people who are still afraid of bad old age conditions are people who still have excessive pessimism so that people no longer count their own efforts and efforts from now on. In fact, everyone who already has a good old age is based on the steps they take now because it is part of the preparation for themselves and also for the people around them.

When we have a heart, feelings or emotions of fear are natural but that does not mean that fear will stop us from doing something to achieve success in life.
Planning will make us more mature to do it so that we can minimize excessive fear in efforts to develop self-potential.
Life in old age is a process of preparation that we do in our youth and if we do something right then life in old age will be much better, especially financial matters in meeting all the needs of life with family.

[JayJuanGee]

i fully understand your philosophy is to be financially independent to have full choice/options to work or retire
being FI is one thing, and there are many topics about it,

but you have wasted many days and posts of lengthy text trying to presume retirement is inclusive of working

I don't recall saying that work is part of Financial independence, perhaps beyond engaging in some activities to keep track of financial matters, and surely there are some folks who contract out their accounting and/or their keeping track of financial matters, which could be an option for some people to choose... and sure, as I mentioned, it is also an option for people to choose to work or not to work, even when they have financial independence.

It seems that I did not even say, either way, whether I work or not, even though I proclaim to largely be financially independent since late 2013-ish... surely, not a bad place to have had been,  and yeah continue to be..

If you are interested (or others might be interested), at the bottom of this linked post, you can see how I had categorized various of my financial allocations between late 2013 and mid-2022, and I had not updated to put in some categories since mid-2022.. but you could get some ideas in regards to how my BTC portion had changed between late 2013 and mid-2022, and surely from my ongoing forum post history, you (or anyone else) might have had been able to extrapolate further information of what might have had happened in regards to my finances after mid-2022 until present, to the extent any of it might be relevant in regards to any of my personal investment allocation details that might be of interest to anyone who might be wanting to compare and/or contrast - and surely, I had mentioned that sometimes these kinds of matters of allocation can be points of discussion that may come up with any of us in regards to if we might be wanting to change any of our allocations in great ways or to largely let our allocations ride without necessarily making any major changes to them.

those that want to be in fire want to retire early and not work

You got it figured out from your own point of view, which again, you seem to be creating strawman arguments, but what else is new?

you want to be in FI and have both options to work or not. i get it, no issues in regards to your desires for yourself to be financially independent

I doubt that I am talking as specifically about myself as you are making it out to be, yet I do perceive that a person can be in FI and optionally choose the extent to include any RE within their activities.

just stop with the silly walls of text pretending people that planned to retire and enter early retirement could, should, will work again but pretend to still remain in fire

My posting choices in regard to either wether or length is within my discretion, so I doubt that your demands in regards to my post quantity, quality or frequency is going to have much of any affect upon those kinds of discretionary choices of mine.

And in regards to your interactions with me on this particular topic, I thought that you said that you were done with me?  I thought that I won due to your giving up, but you still want to argue about what seems to be differing perspectives on the topic (including substantive aspects in regards to the topic of this thread).

and no silly games about pretending favours for friends is equal to employment, as that just puts you in a deeper misunderstanding of societal norms/common sense

I doubt that common sense in accordance with franky1 is either common or makes sense... #justsaying.

back to the topic for those interested in FIRE....
[edited out]

It seems that I already responded to those ideas that you are repeating, and nothing wrong with some repetition and/or hearing about what you (or other guys) might like to do (within various kinds of discretion and/or options) while considering yourself (themselves) to be in FIRE status.

[franky1]

i fully understand your philosophy is to be financially independent to have full choice/options to work or retire
being FI is one thing, and there are many topics about it,

but you have wasted many days and posts of lengthy text trying to presume retirement is inclusive of working

I don't recall saying that work is part of Financial independence,

so you think work is part of retirement but now you want to suggest work is NOT an option for financial independence
(facepalm) now you have become a idiot troll(again) and im definitely going to treat you as such until your ready to think rationally
i honestly thought you made a change last year, but it seems you went backwards this year..

have a nice life and welcome back to the idiot group again(you know which one) which you did escape from for a while but it seems you want to join again, your welcome

dont reply just to act upset,
dont reply just because said dont reply,
dont reply just to show how stupid you can sound
just get the hint.. you got no clue and not willing to learn, so no point in you continuing in this conversation

..
i apologise to the other readers of this topic for JJG acting like a troll and trying to weirdly abuse/twist the definition, meaning, philosophy and lifestyle choices of FIRE to derail the topic into his weird word waffles
its not his fault he is just too young, naive and ignorant to know such things
one day how might learn, and i hope he does..someday

[JayJuanGee]

i fully understand your philosophy is to be financially independent to have full choice/options to work or retire
being FI is one thing, and there are many topics about it,

but you have wasted many days and posts of lengthy text trying to presume retirement is inclusive of working

I don't recall saying that work is part of Financial independence,

so you think work is part of retirement but now you want to suggest work is NOT an option for financial independence
(facepalm)

It seems to me that to the extent that I took any position, I repeatedly suggested that work is optional for someone who is financially independent.  You seem to be the one who is proclaiming that as soon as anyone does any kind of activity that might be considered to be work, within your own arbitrary and seemingly effervescent characterizations, then such person could neither consider himself to be within true  franky defined FIRE status and he could not refer to himself as being in FIRE status.  

You seem to be the one with strict definitions regarding what is and what is not FIRE status that I have been suggesting to be overly restrictive and even oppressive in and of themselves, especially if someone otherwise considering himself to have had been within FIRE status has to consult with the Franky1 dictionary of definitions to verify the extent to which he is not misrepresenting (or misconceptualizing his own status  - due to a potentially inadequate mentality) his actual fitting within FIRE status according to Franky1.

now you have become a idiot troll(again) and im definitely going to treat you as such until your ready to think rationally

You are the retard, and it seems that I was merely trying to be nice in terms of entertaining your fantastical proclamations about what is and what is not FIRE status.

i honestly thought you made a change last year, but it seems you went backwards this year..

Oh gawd.. what a patronizing twat...and just making shit up about your memories of some of our other interactions when you probably were engaged in other nutjob assertions in regards to how you believe that the world should be.  

The mere fact that I send you smerits from time to time does not even mean that I agree with your frequent nonsense, in spite your sometimes making some points that seem to be worthy of recognition for their substance - including showing that even through your delusional self-aggrandizement practices, from time to time (and rare as it may be) you do sometimes have abilities to have posts demonstrating lucid and somewhat logical moments that may even substantively further the conversation in a meaningful direction.   By the way, it does not mean that you are smarter than everyone else merely since from time to time you might make some decently good posts.

have a nice life and welcome back to the idiot group again(you know which one)

As if I give any shits if you choose to live in your lil fantasy self-absorbed bubble.

which you did escape from for a while but it seems you want to join again, your welcome

Again. .that is your choice... I give few shits about your determinations, and I doubt that you show good judgement in regards to those choices anyhow.. so do what you like.

dont reply just to act upset,

Why would I  be upset.

dont reply just because said dont reply,

I tend to reply if I consider that some point might either be addressing me or I consider the point to be something that I would like to respond to.

Here  it seems that your barking out orders is largely just an attempt at manipulation.. which perhaps you are unable to stop yourself from doing.

dont reply just to show how stupid you can sound

For sure.  I admit that part.  I don't claim to have smart responses, and engaging with you is probably not very smart, since you frequently show that you have difficulties controlling your own emotions...including that many times you devolve from addressing substantive points, and you deviate into nonsensical and frequently irrelevant side talking points.

just get the hint.. you got no clue and not willing to learn, so no point in you continuing in this conversation

What is there to learn?  We have differing opinions, and you want to proclaim that you have some kind of higher knowledge on the topic merely because you consider your opinion to be superior.  I consider my opinions on this particular topic to be at least as good as yours, to the extent to which some of our topics might overlap, yet since we are tending to talk past each other in some areas, it is not like it can be conclusively determined that one perspective is better than the other, especially when some of the possible discussion areas are semantic rather than substantive.

..i apologise to the other readers of this topic for JJG acting like a troll and trying to weirdly abuse/twist the definition, meaning, philosophy and lifestyle choices of FIRE to derail the topic into his weird word waffles

I doubt that there is any need to apologize for me, and sure I will admit that I have some opinions about the topic that relate back to various ways of incorporating bitcoin investment into the topic, and yeah, we otherwise did go through some of the various ways that my opinion differs from yours in regards to how the RE portion of FIRE might be treated.  I probably should apologize for my own repetition in terms of engaging with Franky1, even though surely some  portions of our discussion might have been helpful to some members, and surely I am not even claiming that I better understand my own position to the extent that sometimes I might have had failed to keep some of Franky1's seemingly dogmatic ideas in some kind of a check to the extent it is even possible to find some common grounds with a stubborn twat like Franky1.

its not his fault he is just too young, naive and ignorant to know such things
one day how might learn, and i hope he does..someday

Again, you are devolving into a patronizing aire that comes off as mostly irrelevant to the extent that you are even qualified to assess based on my supposed incapacities rather than attempting to address actual substantive points that I made at various points in our discussion.  I imagine that many forum members zone out when discussions seem to devolve too far down into seemingly personal attacks rather than really attempting to battle around about some of the potentially important substantive talking points - which frequently I will consider that forum members are frequently more concerned about various ways that they might get to some kind of FIRE status and then also they may well be concerned how to stay within such FIRE status once getting there rather than getting too much caught up in seemingly meaningless battles about whether they self qualify for being within or outside of FIRE status depending on the extent that they might consider working or earning money while they are perceiving themselves to be within some variation of FIRE status, which likely there may even be borderline statuses that some of us might still consider to still fall within some variation of FIRE status even though such status might not fit with a Franky1 framing of what he believes to constitute actual FIRE status.

[martinex]

It seems like we are here also enjoying and following this warm conversation, the most important thing is that everything is good from both of you.

[EarnOnVictor]

introduction

what is F.I.R.E

-snip-

design your life for the future, don't just think about eating or buying snacks today.

For those who are currently undergoing this movement, perhaps you can share your journey here and for those who really want to start this movement, you can ask and have a good discussion here.

This F.I.R.E of a thing is easier said than done and what I strive for for me and my family is for us to be financially free and independent (F.I). As you can see, mine didn't get to the E as I eliminated the R.E. It's better this way because this retirement of a thing is subjective and I see it lazy to retire early (R.E). Why must I retire early when it is even beneficial healthwise not to do that? Activities matter too, we should not overhype early retirement.

[Plaguedeath]

It's really tiring to read two posters who create wall of text posts.

if you want to work so be it. boom you are no longer retired.. end of story. you are now employed and not part of f.i.r.e
debate ended(not sure why you are even debating going back to work in a f.i.r.e topic while still pretending you want to be in f.i.r.e)

can i just say, even bill gates, elon musk, warren buffet are at ultimate FU status, but because they choose to work they are not in f.i.r.e

if your mindset either worries about money or you choose to work as a hobby or to afford shiny things. you cant be in f.i.r.e.  
the acronym is pretty clear about what defines f.i.r.e..  and when you are finally ready for f.i.r.e, you'll know it

I like this point, just like I mentioned above, technically I can retire now in minimalist lifestyle, but I'm still continue to work. My worries are in two thing, first is money and second is my ability.

No one can know what will happen to me in the future, if I get fatal disease, I might not be in FIRE status anymore because I need to pay health care (not everything will be covered by insurance).

The second is, I like to train myself to be the best, this also make me can decrease the chance of getting Alzheimer because I always learn something everyday.

So yeah, FIRE is not for me, but I believe both of them are good choices, the only bad choice is choose to FIRE but didn't have enough money (become homeless and get donation/help from government to survive).

[franky1]

It seems to me that to the extent that I took any position, I repeatedly suggested that work is optional for someone who is financially independent.  You seem to be the one who is proclaiming that as soon as anyone does any kind of activity that might be considered to be work, within your own arbitrary and seemingly effervescent characterizations, then such person could neither consider himself to be within true  franky defined FIRE status and he could not refer to himself as being in FIRE status.  

you are correct in this part.. FI has option to continue work
dont meander and mix up the notion of someone being FI, with someone thats in the FIRE philosophy
the RE has a important differential distinction compared to someone thats just FI.. learn the difference and things might start making sense for you

the rest of your waffle is you not understanding anything and misrepresenting everything
YOU are confused about
a. what work is
b. what retirement is
c. what kind of activity might be work
d. what fire is
e. what i said

YOU think doing favours for friends is the same as employment
YOU are the one trying to say retired people work if they have to do house chores, manage own finances, pay own bills, or maintain their car
YOU cant understand the difference between a favour, chore vs work
thus you have no comprehension of work..

then you want to redefine what retirement is..
its not "dogmatic meaning according to franky".. its actually societal common sense thats been known by billions of people even before you were born


so instead of wasting all of your daily crying time on this forum making wacky posts trying to play the idiot/victim of your own misunderstandings when someone points out your failures. take the time you usually take to post, to actually learn some stuff..
use your time wisely, for your own benefit.. learn some stuff (even if you think learning is work, try it)

use google, use some research resources, talk to other people in your life about common sense stuff, people you trust to tell you in a way you will accept even if it hurts your predisposition, preset notions..  learn how society works. learn how even the tax man defines the difference between income vs gift, learn some basic standards of life and common sense

stop wasting other readers time with your silly troll/fake victim games.

heck i know you want to next abuse the word 'independent'.. i can tell you are scratching at your computer desk, itching to spout out the next level of your game, you are just that type of person

just get the hint already, your idiot game is not subtle, you deserve to be put back in the idiot group. so take some time to mature and sort yourself out if you ever want to stop being called one

[Renampun]

It seems like we are here also enjoying and following this warm conversation, the most important thing is that everything is good from both of you.

I am very happy to read the discussion created above, it really opens my mind about how we can achieve financial freedom before we die, because many people out there die before they even enjoy their lives, and in the end everything they live is in vain. I hope all of us get good things in life so that our lives are not in vain and FIRE is one way to achieve happiness (in my opinion).

[mindrust]

FIRE status gives you a choice.

A choice most people don’t have.

That’s the most importantly aspect of achieving your FIRE status. Everything else that comes with it are just deal sweeteners.

If your passive income becomes equal to your income from your business/job and your job is something you wouldn’t do if you had a choice, that’s when you can make big changes in your life with zero risk of losing anything.

If you leave your job or close down your business before you achieve your FIRE status, there is a big chance that you might never get back to your previous job/business if things don’t go as planned.

Basically, you can do whatever the fuck you want, and if you don’t want to do anything, there is no penalty. I can’t think of a better life upgrade than that.

[franky1]

reaching FI alone from my experience was a multi-enlightening experience all should aim to feel aswell
(mental and physical weight lifted off shoulders)

reaching the point that your able to pay off your mortgage or if renting, paying off a years worth of rent and utilities. whereby it hits you:
a. you owe no one
b. you have no debts
c. no obligations
d. whats left in your account is all yours to do with as you please

having no debts is one level
having no obligations is another.. knowing what you have in your account is all yours.. just knowing you dont need to keep X, Y, Z aside to pay something due on a,b,c date is a mental relief in of itself

then knowing the amount in the account could pay for anything you like, but then realising you dont actually need it. is like a level 100 feeling

alot of times when finances were tough we all have had dreams of wanting everything, building lists of everything you could wish for. but when you reach a point of being able to afford things without concern or worrying if it will take money away from other needs is a new feeling, you suddenly realise your wish list changes

its no longer a feeling of needing things to feel happy, but already happy so not needing things
you realise you do not need other peoples affections/compliments of them thinking you are financially stable to feel fulfilled. instead you feel fulfilled no matter what others think, you stop trying to impress others. you stop thinking you need the latest thing to feel fulfilled

just being financially independent to have no obligations is a target all should try to reach. and yes normal fiat employment wont really help you reach that unless you get paid a high salary.. but investing to allow for better than promotion % increases will

[Frankolala]

If you leave your job or close down your business before you achieve your FIRE status, there is a big chance that you might never get back to your previous job/business if things don’t go as planned.

Basically, you can do whatever the fuck you want, and if you don’t want to do anything, there is no penalty. I can’t think of a better life upgrade than that.

I don't think that you need to leave to leave your business or sell your investment because you want to achieve F.I.R.E. There are things that should be put in place before you can reason F.I.R.E, if not you will suffer in the long run. Quitting of job is acceptable and that is if you have a source of income which with your presence or not it is running.

You can have a business and make it big, put someone to manage it and report to you. You can do that once in a while. Having a house and enough Bitcoin that you have stashed up in your portfolio before that time. Your business can take care of your basic needs, you already have a house and once in a while you can take very little profit from your bitcoin if needed. With F.I, you can achieve F.I.R.E but you must start from somewhere and work towards it early.

[mindrust]

If you leave your job or close down your business before you achieve your FIRE status, there is a big chance that you might never get back to your previous job/business if things don’t go as planned.

Basically, you can do whatever the fuck you want, and if you don’t want to do anything, there is no penalty. I can’t think of a better life upgrade than that.

I don't think that you need to leave to leave your business or sell your investment because you want to achieve F.I.R.E. There are things that should be put in place before you can reason F.I.R.E, if not you will suffer in the long run. Quitting of job is acceptable and that is if you have a source of income which with your presence or not it is running.

You can have a business and make it big, put someone to manage it and report to you. You can do that once in a while. Having a house and enough Bitcoin that you have stashed up in your portfolio before that time. Your business can take care of your basic needs, you already have a house and once in a while you can take very little profit from your bitcoin if needed. With F.I, you can achieve F.I.R.E but you must start from somewhere and work towards it early.

I don’t think you understood my post or never cared to read it.

Of couse you don’t need to sell your business or quit your job to achieve the status.

You achieve the status first and then you quit.

But,

You quit the job or the business, because you never liked it. As I explained in my post, You were in that business and busting your ass to make money day after day and when you finally hit a certain amount, then you can quit and do some other business which you like more.

The original job/business was making you lots of money, but it was also wrecking your body and soul.

The next job/business might generate less income but that’s not the point.

You don’t depend on that income anymore. Your passive income is making more money than you’ll ever need. You work to have fun from now on. You don’t care about its pay.

That’s what I meant.

[tabas]

~snip~

To give you an idea, it's not that much compared to all of you in here but I can say that hopefully when BTC hits the ceiling, I can say that I can live with my life with less pressure. And I agree that no offense to those that have invested to themselves and got the skills and job that they have dreamt of but someone who DCAed Bitcoin during the early days might be ahead of time than them in terms of portfolio and finance matters. On the other hand, someone who had BTC and kept it until now and could live comfortably could do what they did and improve their skills and follow the path of passion they want to be in. That only means patience has always been paying off.

There are quite a few people who have come to realize that they overvalued real estate (such as buying their own residence) and they undervalued bitcoin in terms of how much bitcoin would continue to appreciate relative to property values.  There are still a lot of people mistakingly making those kinds of assessments.

I agree and there's this one guy that admires that after selling their house, they can buy it back now with a lesser quantity of Bitcoin while keeping a lot of it in their family's stash. I'm talking about Didi Taihuttu's notable decision to sell their house for Bitcoin way back 2017.

[JayJuanGee]

It seems like we are here also enjoying and following this warm conversation, the most important thing is that everything is good from both of you.

You mean that we are lovey dovey.

Sure franky1 can test the patience of the most godly of folks, not that I am claiming to be godly.. that's Franky's role (work if you must).

introduction
what is F.I.R.E
-snip-
design your life for the future, don't just think about eating or buying snacks today.

For those who are currently undergoing this movement, perhaps you can share your journey here and for those who really want to start this movement, you can ask and have a good discussion here.

This F.I.R.E of a thing is easier said than done and what I strive for for me and my family is for us to be financially free and independent (F.I). As you can see, mine didn't get to the E as I eliminated the R.E. It's better this way because this retirement of a thing is subjective and I see it lazy to retire early (R.E). Why must I retire early when it is even beneficial healthwise not to do that? Activities matter too, we should not overhype early retirement.

I think that with FI you are still largely able to do mostly what you want.. so it is quite important to not be having the FI hanging over your head in the event that you really were not within such a status and you were lying to yourself about being within such status of FI...

The RE seems less consequential, as you mentioned, especially if you truly do have your shit together in regards to the FI, then the RE is 100% (or pretty damned close) to optional.  There surely are guys who lie to themselves in regards to claiming FI when it may well not be as true as they are believing it to be.

I suppose we really could end up arguing about what constitutes substantial and meaningful FI too..

It seems to me that to the extent that I took any position, I repeatedly suggested that work is optional for someone who is financially independent.  You seem to be the one who is proclaiming that as soon as anyone does any kind of activity that might be considered to be work, within your own arbitrary and seemingly effervescent characterizations, then such person could neither consider himself to be within true  franky defined FIRE status and he could not refer to himself as being in FIRE status.  

you are correct in this part.. FI has option to continue work
dont meander and mix up the notion of someone being FI, with someone thats in the FIRE philosophy
the RE has a important differential distinction compared to someone thats just FI.. learn the difference and things might start making sense for you

the rest of your waffle is you not understanding anything and misrepresenting everything
YOU are confused about
a. what work is
b. what retirement is
c. what kind of activity might be work
d. what fire is
e. what i said

I doubt any of this is as dramatic as you are making it out to be.

YOU think doing favours for friends is the same as employment

I did not come to any conclusion, except sure I was probably inclined towards calling it a voluntary activity rather than work, even though there were obligations involved too.. and I suppose that I was largely describing that activity as an example in which a person might end up getting paid pretty sizable amounts for his activities and also getting paid more than once for doing the same thing.

YOU are the one trying to say retired people work if they have to do house chores, manage own finances, pay own bills, or maintain their car

sure.  Further examples of different kinds of activities that show certain kinds of obligations that might come from owning things, choosing to buy more things or even entering into relations in which a retired person might have to oversee someone else doing work.. which is a kind of work to oversee the other person, especially if it is a BIG project that is chosen to be done.and even the project might end up bringing in money..as I mentioned in some of my earlier examples..

YOU cant understand the difference between a favour, chore vs work
thus you have no comprehension of work..

We seem to share some ideas and differ in some of our perspective, to the extent that any of it matters, which you seem to think the RE part matters, and I don't attach so much specificity to what counts or does not count, even though I provided some examples in which you could potentially choose for yourself in regards if they constitute work or not.. and some of my examples seem to contradict some of your prior assertions regarding what might be considered work or not work.

then you want to redefine what retirement is..

Perhaps what it is remains less important than you are seeming to want to outline it to be within your parameters of seeming to want to ongoingly battle about it.. and perhaps we might even end up agreeing that the FI portion is much more important than the RE portion.. even though achieving the FI portion may well have a lot of significance for some one to choose to partially or even completely discontinue earlier activities that had been sources of his income to pay his monthly bills through such income that he is giving up and presumptively converting over to other forums of income.. such as using various aspects of his retirement funds.. whether he might have a pension might be another source of income that might be part of an immediate formula, or maybe he starts to draw a pension at a later date, if that might be one of his income sources.

its not "dogmatic meaning according to franky".. its actually societal common sense thats been known by billions of people even before you were born

Sounds like exaggeration to me.. especially since conditions likely vary in terms of when guys might discontinue work and even there is not a lot of commonality in terms of folks around the world either establishing investment accounts or knowing how to preserve them, manage them or to  draw from them, in the event that those billions of people have some commonalities in their knowledge about how to retire early or how to get to a status of financial independence, which also seems to be a prerequisite to being able to discontinue paid work perhaps in a way that is earlier than otherwise expected.

so instead of wasting all of your daily crying time on this forum making wacky posts trying to play the idiot/victim of your own misunderstandings when someone points out your failures. take the time you usually take to post, to actually learn some stuff..
use your time wisely, for your own benefit.. learn some stuff (even if you think learning is work, try it)

I doubt it is productive for you to be going on and on about the various ways that I supposedly failed.

use google, use some research resources, talk to other people in your life about common sense stuff, people you trust to tell you in a way you will accept even if it hurts your predisposition, preset notions..  learn how society works. learn how even the tax man defines the difference between income vs gift, learn some basic standards of life and common sense

I doubt any of this is even relevant.

stop wasting other readers time with your silly troll/fake victim games.
heck i know you want to next abuse the word 'independent'.. i can tell you are scratching at your computer desk, itching to spout out the next level of your game, you are just that type of person

just get the hint already, your idiot game is not subtle, you deserve to be put back in the idiot group. so take some time to mature and sort yourself out if you ever want to stop being called one

I thought that you already put me in the idiot group, so why are you continuing to discuss these matters?

~snip~

To give you an idea, it's not that much compared to all of you in here but I can say that hopefully when BTC hits the ceiling, I can say that I can live with my life with less pressure.

One thing is that bitcoin is designed to go up forever, so if you think that if bitcoin goes to a certain price, then you are selling it, that seems to be problematic from my point of view.

And I agree that no offense to those that have invested to themselves and got the skills and job that they have dreamt of but someone who DCAed Bitcoin during the early days might be ahead of time than them in terms of portfolio and finance matters. On the other hand, someone who had BTC and kept it until now and could live comfortably could do what they did and improve their skills and follow the path of passion they want to be in. That only means patience has always been paying off.

I think that there are trade offs, and it is not always clear whether you might invest in yourself and develop skills, and sure it could have been better use of your money to just buy bitcoin, yet sometimes young people have little to no money, so they may well be spending a lot of time learning, but not engaging in employment, so they are not earning money during time that they are studying, yet they may well be expecting that at the end of their studies they may well end up getting a job that pays them way more and also gives them way more options at various points down the road.  It can be difficult to know which path forward is better, and surely there are some job opportunties that may well ONLY come from someone with a degree or maybe someone who met person with connections while they were a university student.  I believe that I personally was able to get some opportunities that were largely based on my college education and various kinds of work that I did in preparation for college that looked good on my resume and did not lock me into lower end kinds of jobs that may well would have otherwise been within my options had I not pursued the college path.. and surely I think that the higher paying jobs made up for the time that I was not paid.. ... yet the question is not always obvious since it is difficult to figure out what the other path would have had been, since college for me did involve entering into quite a bit of debt, too... it took a while to pay back the debt, but the level of pay still seemed to have had made up for the extra expenses.  it is not easy for any of us to answer for anyone else and it is not even  easy to know our own various trade-offs that we might not completely know after we had chosen to take one path instead of another path.

There are quite a few people who have come to realize that they overvalued real estate (such as buying their own residence) and they undervalued bitcoin in terms of how much bitcoin would continue to appreciate relative to property values.  There are still a lot of people mistakingly making those kinds of assessments.

I agree and there's this one guy that admires that after selling their house, they can buy it back now with a lesser quantity of Bitcoin while keeping a lot of it in their family's stash. I'm talking about Didi Taihuttu's notable decision to sell their house for Bitcoin way back 2017.

Selling your house is one thing, and choosing to not even buy a house (defer the purchase) is another thing.  I remember times in which folks were really excited about selling their bitcoin and getting into real estate, which I know is an ongoing lingering dilemma for some folks.