Financial Independence Retire Early [F.I.R.E]

[Ruttoshi]

But more importantly many people thing that the way to become rich enough to retire early is to penny-pinch as much as possible, but that makes you quite miserly and you won't be able to enjoy anything.

You don't have to penny pinch, but you do have to spend less than you earn so that any excess income would go into savings, and sure one of the ways to get there faster is to put more money into your investment/savings/retirement plan faster, so you can accomplish by spending less and/or earning more. It does not mean that you have to suffer, but sure, suffering could be a way to reach that FIRE status earlier.

From my point of view, it seems a bit presumptive to imagine that suffering has to happen in order to reach FIRE status early, even if suffering would likely expedite such process of getting to FIRE faster.  

I like this part of your statement, because some people who have extra funds to save for their future by investing it, don't do that but rather they spend the extra cash on their wants believing that tomorrow will be better than today without them having to invest for a better tomorrow. How is that possible. I have always told me friends that I will prefer to limit my flashy lifestyle and invest those extra cash on bitcoin to grow my portfolio for F.I.R.E.

Since I am in my youthful age and still have the strength and very agile, I will keeping on working to generate more funds and cut down my expenses so that I can invest more in bitcoin for my old age, because I am able to work and earn good income, why will I be spending without planning for the future when I wouldn't have this strength and flexibility to work the way I am working now. If I don't save and invest for F.I.R.E, I will might end up in a poor state by that time.

If only a lot of people can look at it this way, when we were teens, we went to school to graduate in other to get a better life, or we learn a skill so that it can take care of us when we are on our own. If you don't take your studies serious or your skill, you wouldn't be a professional in it and wouldn't be able to earn good pay to take of your and family because the kind of job you will be doing will be a low paid job. Same applies when you have started working and earning. Since you have discretionary income, if you did not plan for it and invest...at old age, you will have nothing on you and living poor will only be your option.

I learned this from my Uncle, he had a good job in the sea port and was rich but he didn't invest a dime, because he didn't plan for F.I.R.E and was enjoying himself to the fullest, when he retired, he got broke within 5 years and now he is a poor man. It's what you have today that you will use to plan for tomorrow.

[Kelward]

I believe that most people wants this F.I.R.E strategy so that they can retire early and enjoy the rest of their lives without working. If a person is working and can take care of their basic needs and have extras, that means that the above strategy will work for the person. Then he can apply all the rules to achieving the goals of early retirement and it all centers on living below your means, meaning that you should always budget your expenses below your income.

 The problem that many people that are hit by inflation in their countries is that their incomes can barely take care of their basic needs, this the reality of many people. Many people are struggling to survive, even with a second job which is adding a lot of stress to them so it's not very easy for everybody to retire early even if it's their wish.

[JayJuanGee]

As much as I want to achieve this goal but I think I understand more people living with their careers until they can no longer go to work. It has become part of their routines to still keep on working but with minimal efforts and have a continuous cash flow. If I get into that point, I'd say that I am retired but will do some minimal task or efforts that will still generate me cash flow. But as with what people see that, it's not complete retirement but at least, that's stress free whether I work or not, I have some savings with my retirement fund.

Of course, you don't necessarily need to reach full FIRE status in order to enjoy the benefits of having had built up enough of a nest egg so that you have some options and yeah, you might be able to reduce the quantity of your hours, or you might be able to reduce the kinds of physically demanding kinds of jobs that you do, since your body might  not be as capable of doing such physically taxing jobs including also being able to adequately recover from physically taxing kinds of work.  Some people are able to continue doing physically taxing work, yet most people suffer decline in strength, stamina and even their recovery times or their proneness to injury or getting sick or not recovering from their ailments as quickly and easily.

Having options continues to be a plus, even if you are not quite able to go into full FIRE status at the age that you would like to do so.

My standard of living has been pretty good in the past 7 years or so, and it seems to me that I was hunkering down investing into bitcoin for my first 4-ish years between late 2013 and late/2016 to early 2017, but then even though I was not really cashing out of my BTC, I was still able to improve my standard of living in 2017 and thereafter based on anticipations of what I had already established. .and surely gaining confidence that what I had done was enough.. even though I even started to have such confidences in early 2016.. when BTC started its recovery after spending so much time in decline in 2014 and time being stagnant in its price in 2015..

I've realized that we're all going to that point that our body will tax us with the too work that we've got during our younger days and that's why we also have to plan whether full FIRE or semi, as long as we live comfortably and able to sustain our lifestyle and frugal living. That is impressive. You have not cashing a lot of your BTC and you're able to live comfortably and confidently. I bet that you have some other sources aside from your paper profits in Bitcoin investing and the big thing here is you're living within or even below your means and means comfort to you. I wish that more people are going to do the same as you, despite that have probable huge holdings and seeing $$$ from time to time, not too hungry in taking them all and have a longer game plan.

Of course, each of us has to attempt to best prepare ourselves under our own circumstances, and it can take a long time to build up investments whether we are including bitcoin into our investment portfolio or otherwise, and surely, the less we prepare ourselves, then when we get into our 40s, 50s and 60s we might not have created options for ourselves as we might have had been able to do if we had started preparing somewhat in our youth.

Truly more well-off people will have more resources from which to draw, yet even well off people might not sufficiently and/or adequately prepare themselves, and they may also take their finances for granted, and find out that they have fewer options because they had not started preparing early.

It is likely that many of us will make various screw ups in our finances along the way, and surely some kinds of screw ups are less long term damaging and recoverable than others.. and it is not even always going to be clear until years and years had passed if we might have screwed up some of our decisions earlier on since even  in bitcoin, we might have had been able to invest into it somewhat aggressively in earlier years, and then we might find payouts in current times, yet even if we are a later entrant into bitcoin, we still ONLY have the ability to assess where we are at from the present and make our preparations for the future based on our current circumstances how they are rather than how we wished they would be based on some things that we might have done differently in earlier times.

There might be times in which we might need to keep more of our value in dollar based assets and using some of that for short term income and then maybe some of our bitcoin might be spread into longer term kind of storage and/or income kinds of resources that might not be regularly drawn, so we can try to keep more than one source, in place, but we also might want to make sure that we have enough or more than enough before we start drawing on some sources, rather than if we might still be in the stages of building some of it up.

Some folks might say that they want to continue to work, yet it may not be the case that they want to continue to work but instead that they have to continue to work, and surely it can be difficult to change your circumstances, especially if if you are already in your 60s, then maybe the best you can do is to try to preserve your situation so that you can stop working in your 70s, but you might still be able to slow down in your 60s if you believe that might be a workable kind of arrangement that you had already reached.

I think some of the problems that I had in this thread that I mentioned in my first post in this thread is that guys were talking about FIRE in terms of various traditional investments that they have, yet it seems to me that historically bitcoin has outperformed so many of the traditional investments in such ways that it could be possible that bitcoin is able to give options to guys that would not have had otherwise been possible with traditional investment categories, so bitcoin may well allow for various kinds of abilities for us to supercharge our retirements, yet we still likely need to both manage our getting to enough (or more than enough) bitcoin, and we likely also have to manage our bitcoin so that we are not spending too much of it too soon.

Surely we have seen how folks have gotten screwed in their traditional investments, especially based on dollar debasement happening at way higher levels than they had anticipated to be within the cards and even within the current somewhat hidden status in which so many folks nominaly valuate their abilities, yet find themselves ongoingly losing ground with the value of their income in real terms.

so if any of us stack bitcoin early, we might start to gain a lot of confidence in how our BTC is helping us to live better even if we still might not be completely living off of it, but perhaps merely allowing the bitcoin to ride or perhaps just allowing the bitcoin to supplement our income in minor ways as it continues to grow to a place in which it might be able to do more of the heavy lifting in regards to providing income to us... Perhaps? perhaps?  Each of us handle our bitcoin investment and allow for its growth in differing ways that hopefully does not contribute towards our cashing out too much of it too soon.

I am a testament to this and will continue to do so in keeping a stack of Bitcoin. I've proved it to myself that there's the biggest part in my life that BTC did it all and I reckon this advise and hopefully others will be wise on doing their investments, I'm not saying that I am wise but sure JJG is. 

Of course, bitcoin is not guaranteed to continue to outperform traditional assets, so we have to figure how much of a balance we want to keep in each, even when we are spending from them, so perhaps if we start to get to the cashing out stage, we might end up drawing from each in some kind of proportioned level that helps us to feel comfortable in regards to how much value we are keeping in each or perhaps if we might choose to let the bitcoin portion grow more, even though the formula is not 100% true.

Recently I had been trying to talk a friend into delaying purchasing a house, since there was a trade off between putting the value into the house and keeping value in bitcoin, and such person did not listen to me, and surely it is not my choice to make. 

Many of us likely recall that a median house in 2015 may well have had cost us close to 1,000 bitcoin ($250k), and surely today, even if the median price of house might have more than doubled in the past 10 years, right now a median house of $500k to $1million, the contrast is strong, since such $500k to $1million house will cost us in the ballpark of 6 to 11 BTC, which truly is a big difference, and we don't even have to go that far back to make comparisons, since even in 2019, we might say that a $500k house may well have had cost us around 50 BTC, and so such trend is not necessarily guaranteed, yet we can figure out where we might want to put our value, and sure if we are intent on getting a house we can choose whether to get it now, or if we might want to wait a few years (if we might be able to, and at the same time, we are the one who has to live with the decision, whether we can reasonably recognize what might be for our own financial and/or psychological good or not).. We might not realize the ramifications of our choices until 3-5 years down the road when it may well no longer be an option for us to attempt to revisit our earlier decision..

I personally believe that we can live quite improved lives with BTC as our wealth, and it may well be quite likely that the BTC value will grow way beyond our spending pace, so if the BTC is allowed to compound in value a few more times, we may well end up with way more wealth than we expected, which may well allow us to go from spending wealthy and wise and into higher levels of extravagance.

It is like going from entry-level fuck you status (FIRE status), end then getting to a point that is multiples higher than the entry-level status, and then perhaps being 10s or even 100x higher than the entry-level fuck you status at a kind of filthy rich status, which some of those higher levels  can come without necessarily having to work hard at it, but just living within one's means and allowing the value to continue to compound, which so far in bitcoin's history, it has compounded many, many times...

bitcoin will compound at far better rate than any bank account interest rate or portfolio manage stock options.. its just picking the target amount where the compounding is growing more then the withdrawal, to decide whats the best number to find sustainable living amount to then retire and enjoy it

can i just offer some advice.. the whole 'fuck you status' of just extravagance/burning money 'cos i can' gets boring quick..

From my perspective, there are varying levels of fuck you status, including the bare minimum of being able to choose not to work.  There is no need to read fuck you status beyond that, even though surely I would concede that even being able to refuse to work full time and only to work part time, could be considered a moderated fuck you status that might ONLY be possible if enough savings/investment is built up to allow for an ability to not be forced to work full time based on having to have enough income to support yourself and your chosen standard of living.

dont plan on a wasteful spending as it wont make you happy long term

Wasteful is subjective.  Surely if you are still in early stages of fuck you status, you might not have as much room for extravagances, and I think that I already mentioned that if you happen to have multitudes or even magnitudes beyond your entry-level fuck you status then you are going to have more room for extravagances that may or may not make you happy long term and/or short term.  I doubt that you can proclaim what might make another person happy and what the limits might be for another person.

it only lasts as long as driving a car out the showroom and on the way home seeing someone with a car thats better than yours (less than a couple hours)

Yeah, maybe a guy might not like hookers, lambos and blow, but another guy might.  Whether he does it daily or just once in a while, he may or may not feel fulfilled.

where your then already thinking 'maybe i should have bought that one instead'
dont get into that consumerism cycle or you'll just ends up spending it all just to act like the top man

You may well be correct that some kinds of consumer items might end up causing a lot of work... for example getting the yacht might have to involve a whole crew, and then supervising employees, which might not be as pleasurable as imagined.

i actually enjoy knowing i can buy any car, any house.. but just not needing to.

That is true too.. especially there could be quite a bit of work in buying a new house or even a mansion and then getting management systems in place might be problematic too.. including that if you might get some managers who are not honest.. that would likely cause additional work, too.

the peace of mind of not having to worry about money is the essence of F.I.R.E, its not about buying crazy things 'because i can'
its not about forced frugality either

people think they can only retire in 2 extreme circumstances:
a. super bill gate/musk rich with the need to buy 10 mansions and 7 lambo's
b. enough to live on bread&beans, to stay home watching tv repeats

You are devolving into strawman arguments now, even though surely some people do think without realistic expectations.. including that many of us can be rich and/or even have rich sensations by merely having options and making sure that we are living within our means... whether we have a $1 million per year income or merely a $40k per year income... if we our expenses are less than our income, then we likely are rich, especially if we have chosen to live that way and if we have the choice whether or not to work rather than having to work.

but f.ir.e is about enjoying financial freedom of not worried about money

 in short, once you reach F.I.R.E status. your mindset will change about whats important to you. rich/extravagance gets boring.. you start to want to have and explore experiences, not shiny objects. you live comfortably worry free

 

That may be true that the main point is having options and not having to work, yet people may want some shiny objects, too, even if some of the shiny objects might cause some work to get, to maintain and to enjoy... so for example, if I get a nice boat, then I have to figure out where I am going to store it, and whether I might need to transport it.  Can I drive it myself or do I need or want help, and various decisions that may well need to be made and perhaps even questions if there are other people who might help to arrange some of these matters or do I have to do them and arrange them myself.. including keeping track of the finances or the various people involved or even my own schedule in regards to when to do the  stuff and with whom.. and is that how I want to spend my time.

I believe that most people wants this F.I.R.E strategy so that they can retire early and enjoy the rest of their lives without working. If a person is working and can take care of their basic needs and have extras, that means that the above strategy will work for the person. Then he can apply all the rules to achieving the goals of early retirement and it all centers on living below your means, meaning that you should always budget your expenses below your income.

The problem that many people that are hit by inflation in their countries is that their incomes can barely take care of their basic needs, this the reality of many people. Many people are struggling to survive, even with a second job which is adding a lot of stress to them so it's not very easy for everybody to retire early even if it's their wish.

Many of us are into bitcoin because it can be quite difficult to get ahead through traditional investments, yet we still have to be able to earn more than we spend, as you mentioned in your first paragraph, and so ultimately it still can take a bit of time to build up a bitcoin nest egg and then to live off of bitcoin or to supplement our lifestyle from our bitcoin rather than merely ONLY relying on traditional investments that might never be able to outpace the rate of the debasement of fiat.

[franky1]

I personally believe that we can live quite improved lives with BTC as our wealth, and it may well be quite likely that the BTC value will grow way beyond our spending pace, so if the BTC is allowed to compound in value a few more times, we may well end up with way more wealth than we expected, which may well allow us to go from spending wealthy and wise and into higher levels of extravagance.

It is like going from entry-level fuck you status (FIRE status), end then getting to a point that is multiples higher than the entry-level status, and then perhaps being 10s or even 100x higher than the entry-level fuck you status at a kind of filthy rich status, which some of those higher levels  can come without necessarily having to work hard at it, but just living within one's means and allowing the value to continue to compound, which so far in bitcoin's history, it has compounded many, many times...

bitcoin will compound at far better rate than any bank account interest rate or portfolio manage stock options.. its just picking the target amount where the compounding is growing more then the withdrawal, to decide whats the best number to find sustainable living amount to then retire and enjoy it

can i just offer some advice.. the whole 'fuck you status' of just extravagance/burning money 'cos i can' gets boring quick..

From my perspective, there are varying levels of fuck you status, including the bare minimum of being able to choose not to work.  There is no need to read fuck you status beyond that, even though surely I would concede that even being able to refuse to work full time and only to work part time, could be considered a moderated fuck you status that might ONLY be possible if enough savings/investment is built up to allow for an ability to not be forced to work full time based on having to have enough income to support yourself and your chosen standard of living.

dont plan on a wasteful spending as it wont make you happy long term

Wasteful is subjective.  Surely if you are still in early stages of fuck you status, you might not have as much room for extravagances, and I think that I already mentioned that if you happen to have multitudes or even magnitudes beyond your entry-level fuck you status then you are going to have more room for extravagances that may or may not make you happy long term and/or short term.  I doubt that you can proclaim what might make another person happy and what the limits might be for another person.

it only lasts as long as driving a car out the showroom and on the way home seeing someone with a car thats better than yours (less than a couple hours)

Yeah, maybe a guy might not like hookers, lambos and blow, but another guy might.  Whether he does it daily or just once in a while, he may or may not feel fulfilled.

where your then already thinking 'maybe i should have bought that one instead'
dont get into that consumerism cycle or you'll just ends up spending it all just to act like the top man

You may well be correct that some kinds of consumer items might end up causing a lot of work... for example getting the yacht might have to involve a whole crew, and then supervising employees, which might not be as pleasurable as imagined.

i actually enjoy knowing i can buy any car, any house.. but just not needing to.

That is true too.. especially there could be quite a bit of work in buying a new house or even a mansion and then getting management systems in place might be problematic too.. including that if you might get some managers who are not honest.. that would likely cause additional work, too.

the peace of mind of not having to worry about money is the essence of F.I.R.E, its not about buying crazy things 'because i can'
its not about forced frugality either

people think they can only retire in 2 extreme circumstances:
a. super bill gate/musk rich with the need to buy 10 mansions and 7 lambo's
b. enough to live on bread&beans, to stay home watching tv repeats

You are devolving into strawman arguments now, even though surely some people do think without realistic expectations.. including that many of us can be rich and/or even have rich sensations by merely having options and making sure that we are living within our means... whether we have a $1 million per year income or merely a $40k per year income... if we our expenses are less than our income, then we likely are rich, especially if we have chosen to live that way and if we have the choice whether or not to work rather than having to work.

but f.ir.e is about enjoying financial freedom of not worried about money

 in short, once you reach F.I.R.E status. your mindset will change about whats important to you. rich/extravagance gets boring.. you start to want to have and explore experiences, not shiny objects. you live comfortably worry free

 

That may be true that the main point is having options and not having to work, yet people may want some shiny objects, too, even if some of the shiny objects might cause some work to get, to maintain and to enjoy... so for example, if I get a nice boat, then I have to figure out where I am going to store it, and whether I might need to transport it.  Can I drive it myself or do I need or want help, and various decisions that may well need to be made and perhaps even questions if there are other people who might help to arrange some of these matters or do I have to do them and arrange them myself.. including keeping track of the finances or the various people involved or even my own schedule in regards to when to do the  stuff and with whom.. and is that how I want to spend my time.

if you want to work so be it. boom you are no longer retired.. end of story. you are now employed and not part of f.i.r.e
debate ended(not sure why you are even debating going back to work in a f.i.r.e topic while still pretending you want to be in f.i.r.e)

can i just say, even bill gates, elon musk, warren buffet are at ultimate FU status, but because they choose to work they are not in f.i.r.e

if your mindset either worries about money or you choose to work as a hobby or to afford shiny things. you cant be in f.i.r.e.  
the acronym is pretty clear about what defines f.i.r.e..  and when you are finally ready for f.i.r.e, you'll know it

...
you really are scratching at debates which show that you are not understanding f.i.r.e
by you saying you want to enter f.i.r.e at some entry level FU status and then realise you want to buy many shiny things so need to go back to work means you are not ready for f.i.r.e

your mindset/financial status is not yet ready for f.i.r.e

to truly be in f.i.r.e you need to be at a financially independent status to retire early
so again if your not at a financially independent status and then not want to retire.. you are not in f.i.r.e... its that simple

my point is that i can easily afford to buy all the shiny things... but my mindset has changed where shiny things have become boring and non essential to my happiness. i prefer to use my funds to buy experiences and meaningful things
frugality in f.i.r.e is not about living like a homeless person to keep wealth.. frugality in fire is about the mindset of affording everything but not needing it all

my point was simple.. you get to a certain mindset where you no longer worry about money (fu status) where you no longer play the consumerist game of trying to impress the jones by stressing about what others think
its not about forcing yourself to live without things you want in some forced frugal living situation.. its about the mindset of being financially free to buy what ever your want but just not needing to spend money/burn money wastfully

if your still stuck in the worry and stress of money and impressing people.. your not ready for the f.i.r.e mindset/experience

years ago i never understood why warren buffet doesnt have hundreds of vacation homes and car collections.. but now im financially independent i now see why having the latest lambo is not that exciting anymore
...

heres a little lesson for you shiny thing lovers
when you want that $400k lambo to impress the women walking on the sidewalk as they go nightclubbing in mainstreet.. you soon realise when driving such a vehicle you are then stressed about scratching the base of the lowered suspensioned car. so you are now driving it slower than usual and your eyes are on the road watching for potholes and speedbumps.. so no longer enjoying the cruising down mainstreet during the nightscene of nightclubs and women. you no longer have the opportunity to just look out the side window to enjoy the view
you are instead watching the road and watching out for jealous men who want to scratch the side of your car or throwbottles at the car as they come out of nightclubs
you instead later learn to buy a $200k car which can afford you to pay a chauffeur at $50k a year, so you can sit back in the backseat and look out the side window looking at all the 'totty'

when you want to wear the most expensive suit and wear the most expensive rolex, driving the most expensive car. you begin to worry about getting robbed/kidnapped, so would then worry about security and hire a bodyguard. but then your body guard starts dictating your actions and guiding you, setting schedules and routes to travel.. controlling your life and you become dependant on them to decide where you go..
 
you instead later learn to just wear whats comfortable. so you dress casually to just go about your day without drawing attention to yourself, giving you back your freedom to just do what you want. it also silences the other people who approach you just for handouts(gold digger hoes)

all im saying is when you truly reach that FU status and want to enter f.i.r.e status and experience it. you will learn lessons, and your mindset will change.. i was simply trying to give you a heads up that things will be different to your current plans

..
if your still in the wanting to waste money impressing people.. you would be in "rich" category..
where as wealthy people have the money to buy anything but find all the impressing others BS, boring and not needed in their life

i do truly hope you go through the FU status, rich status and finally land in the wealth status of f.i.r.e... as its a truly freeing feeling.. goodluck to you, its life changing

[Obim34]

I personally believe that we can live quite improved lives with BTC as our wealth, and it may well be quite likely that the BTC value will grow way beyond our spending pace, so if the BTC is allowed to compound in value a few more times, we may well end up with way more wealth than we expected, which may well allow us to go from spending wealthy and wise and into higher levels of extravagance.

It is like going from entry-level fuck you status (FIRE status), end then getting to a point that is multiples higher than the entry-level status, and then perhaps being 10s or even 100x higher than the entry-level fuck you status at a kind of filthy rich status, which some of those higher levels  can come without necessarily having to work hard at it, but just living within one's means and allowing the value to continue to compound, which so far in bitcoin's history, it has compounded many, many times...

bitcoin will compound at far better rate than any bank account interest rate or portfolio manage stock options.. its just picking the target amount where the compounding is growing more then the withdrawal, to decide whats the best number to find sustainable living amount to then retire and enjoy it

can i just offer some advice.. the whole 'fuck you status' of just extravagance/burning money 'cos i can' gets boring quick..

From my perspective, there are varying levels of fuck you status, including the bare minimum of being able to choose not to work.  There is no need to read fuck you status beyond that, even though surely I would concede that even being able to refuse to work full time and only to work part time, could be considered a moderated fuck you status that might ONLY be possible if enough savings/investment is built up to allow for an ability to not be forced to work full time based on having to have enough income to support yourself and your chosen standard of living.

Fuck you status are not reached by savings, this is the point where most people usually get it wrong perhaps winning a lottery won't give the chance of retiring at an early age. Fuck you status are met at the point where monthly, annual and yearly investments has be deployed firmly, it is not just a source of income that will temporarily fit to sustain one's initial need, fuck you status should be at the point where  these build ups can last past several generations.

I found out the best kind of fuck you status are those solid on digital assets, digital firms and companies not just an organization of workers that will one day reduce production and success rate due to certain level of advancement leaving them behind.

[Smartprofit]

The FIRE concept is a very interesting financial concept. I am currently reading many articles on this topic.

The main difficulty faced by a person who wants to achieve financial independence is how to earn the initial capital. Very often, a hired worker receives a salary that is enough only to cover current expenses (rent, utilities, travel to and from work, food, shoes, clothes, simple entertainment).

Meanwhile, for the purposes of the FIRE concept, income must significantly exceed expenses. Because it is net profit that is the source of funds for investment.

That is, an apologist for the FIRE concept must either become a highly qualified and highly paid employee or the owner of a successful business. Both tasks are quite difficult.

[Mahanton]

The FIRE concept is a very interesting financial concept. I am currently reading many articles on this topic.

The main difficulty faced by a person who wants to achieve financial independence is how to earn the initial capital. Very often, a hired worker receives a salary that is enough only to cover current expenses (rent, utilities, travel to and from work, food, shoes, clothes, simple entertainment).

Meanwhile, for the purposes of the FIRE concept, income must significantly exceed expenses. Because it is net profit that is the source of funds for investment.

That is, an apologist for the FIRE concept must either become a highly qualified and highly paid employee or the owner of a successful business. Both tasks are quite difficult.

For those who are that having that being born on a family which does have that good financial status on which you would really be having a good start up just in case you would really be having plans on starting up some investment or business even into your early years on getting independent. Actually majority that those who would really be struggling is into those people who had entered the marriage life at early age on which they havent been able to prepared themselves and thats why on the moment that they have decided on starting up some business or investment, then they cant be able to do so not unless if they are on managerial or higher position then they could be having the budget, but what if not? You would really be just that living to pay up on daily expenses and with your debts and thats why not all people will really be that easily be trying out to get along with this FIRE plan. There are those factors on which will definitely affect your plans even if you wanted into but since that kind of incapability will definitely be a huge hindrance for you to achieve success. It is really just that easy to give out some advise like this and like that but if you are on the foot of those people then you will be able to tell that it wasnt really that easy at all. Somehow, everything could really be that possible and it will really be that up to you on how you would be handling yourself on these challenges because if you wanted to have that success in life then you will be testing out at least before making up some giving up conclusions.

[jaberwock]

For those who are that having that being born on a family which does have that good financial status on which you would really be having a good start up just in case you would really be having plans on starting up some investment or business even into your early years on getting independent. Actually majority that those who would really be struggling is into those people who had entered the marriage life at early age on which they havent been able to prepared themselves and thats why on the moment that they have decided on starting up some business or investment, then they cant be able to do so not unless if they are on managerial or higher position then they could be having the budget, but what if not? You would really be just that living to pay up on daily expenses and with your debts and thats why not all people will really be that easily be trying out to get along with this FIRE plan.

As someone who wasn't born to some wealthy family (we were okay though, we weren't welfare level, my father worked and earned enough to survive thankfully) and got married very young, I can testify for this. It's very hard because first of all, you are not from a wealthy family so you are not given anything, my parents never gave me any money for me to survive, secondly when the time comes and you marry right away? That means you never had any time in between, so you never saved.

So you are now paying for your college still, you are paying for maybe the wedding and marriage and the house, rent or maybe mortgage don't know what level you are on, and building that house, and that takes years too. After that maybe a kid? Then you pay for everything for the kid. Suddenly, you are in your late 30's and you never saved an ounce, maybe even in debt, because you never got ready. I am not saying this has to be your future, but there are a lot of us like that.

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

if you want to work so be it. boom you are no longer retired.. end of story. you are now employed and not part of f.i.r.e
debate ended(not sure why you are even debating going back to work in a f.i.r.e topic while still pretending you want to be in f.i.r.e)

You are so annoyingly dogmatic sometimes.  #justsaying.

I hate to repeat myself, since I think that I already made my point, and your end of story does not seem to resolve the issue.

One thing about truly being in FIRE status is the ability to chose, since if a person is truly financially independent, then he can choose his activities, including whether some of it might include work or entering into obligations (and/or contracts with others that involve services being done by the FIRE person).

Sure a person could lie to himself in regards to exactly where he is at or how obligated he might be, or whether he does his accounting himself (which is a kind of work) or hires accountants and lawyers to do those things.

can i just say, even bill gates, elon musk, warren buffet are at ultimate FU status, but because they choose to work they are not in f.i.r.e

You can define things however you like, but it neither means you are correct or that others are going to agree with your way of categorizing matters (activities and/or statuses).

if your mindset either worries about money or you choose to work as a hobby or to afford shiny things. you cant be in f.i.r.e.  

You made a lot of good points earlier, but now you seem to be devolving into your sometimes quasi-retarded self... Not that I don't like you and/or your points, but sometimes you collapse into nearly pure ridiculousness and seeming to want to argue for the mere sake of it.

the acronym is pretty clear about what defines f.i.r.e..  and when you are finally ready for f.i.r.e, you'll know it

I'll have to ask you, since I won't be able to know it on my own.

 

...you really are scratching at debates which show that you are not understanding f.i.r.e
by you saying you want to enter f.i.r.e at some entry level FU status and then realise you want to buy many shiny things so need to go back to work means you are not ready for f.i.r.e

Sure.  Sometimes I might touch upon some personal issues, as examples, yet I am not merely talking about my own status when I discuss this topic or any other forum topic.

your mindset/financial status is not yet ready for f.i.r.e

The no true bitcoiner argument, right?

I will admit that many aspects of managing investment portfolios and/or the bitcoin component within will have both financial and psychological elements.  Another thing that I frequently argue is that if any of us prepare our own finances in such a way that we are prepared for BTC price moves in either direction, then our psychology will likely take care of itself... so in some sense, having good financial management leads to better psychology.

Regarding how any of us spends our days could be another story.  If I might have various amenities such as housing, food, transportation, entertainment in place, yet if I might want to add to such amenities to buy some hookers, lambos and blow, then that is going to change some obligations that I might have in regards to not only the transactions that might be involved and also the extent to which I might enter into obligations in regards to how to manage those hookers, lambos and blow.. will some of that be work?  perhaps?  Perhaps I am changing my obligations and my mindset might not be correct when I choose the purchase of such goods and services. 

Let's say that I am getting a bit bored, and I drive by an apartment complex that has around 30 units, and I think that maybe it would be fun to buy it, and then to either hang out there or maybe renovate some of it, or maybe just run it to the ground.. or change the tenants.  Perhaps the complex is going to cost me around $15 million to buy, and then it might cost me another $5 million to have fun with it.. sure there might be some work, but it seems like something that I am interested in.. Is my mindset wrong because I chose an activity that might involve a combination of work and fun?  Let's say that I have around 1,500 bitcoin, so it is not like I have money issues, even though I still might have some issues about how to manage such 1,500 bitcoin.

to truly be in f.i.r.e you need to be at a financially independent status to retire early
so again if your not at a financially independent status and then not want to retire.. you are not in f.i.r.e... its that simple

Of course, for you it is simple, since you seem to know almost everything.

my point is that i can easily afford to buy all the shiny things... but my mindset has changed where shiny things have become boring and non essential to my happiness. i prefer to use my funds to buy experiences and meaningful things
frugality in f.i.r.e is not about living like a homeless person to keep wealth.. frugality in fire is about the mindset of affording everything but not needing it all

To me, it seems that shiny things can give meaning and experiences, too... but hey?  what do I know?

my point was simple.. you get to a certain mindset where you no longer worry about money (fu status) where you no longer play the consumerist game of trying to impress the jones by stressing about what others think

what makes you speculate that my buying hookers lambos and blows is motivated based on concerns about what others think?

its not about forcing yourself to live without things you want in some forced frugal living situation.. its about the mindset of being financially free to buy what ever your want but just not needing to spend money/burn money wastfully

You seem to know what is wasteful and what isn't and you seem to also presume that you are going to know whether obligations might be created by purchasing goods and/or services and also the extent to which those obligations are voluntary or forced.. or just following the herd as you seem to suggest to be an issue for some of us... perhaps even yours truly?

if your still stuck in the worry and stress of money and impressing people.. your not ready for the f.i.r.e mindset/experience

years ago i never understood why warren buffet doesnt have hundreds of vacation homes and car collections.. but now im financially independent i now see why having the latest lambo is not that exciting anymore
...

heres a little lesson for you shiny thing lovers
when you want that $400k lambo to impress the women walking on the sidewalk as they go nightclubbing in mainstreet.. you soon realise when driving such a vehicle you are then stressed about scratching the base of the lowered suspensioned car. so you are now driving it slower than usual and your eyes are on the road watching for potholes and speedbumps.. so no longer enjoying the cruising down mainstreet during the nightscene of nightclubs and women. you no longer have the opportunity to just look out the side window to enjoy the view
you are instead watching the road and watching out for jealous men who want to scratch the side of your car or throwbottles at the car as they come out of nightclubs
you instead later learn to buy a $200k car which can afford you to pay a chauffeur at $50k a year, so you can sit back in the backseat and look out the side window looking at all the 'totty'

I am glad that you got that  figured out.

when you want to wear the most expensive suit and wear the most expensive rolex, driving the most expensive car. you begin to worry about getting robbed/kidnapped,

I would not want to get kidnapped or robbed.. so does that make me fitting for FIRE status?  or not?

so would then worry about security and hire a bodyguard. but then your body guard starts dictating your actions and guiding you, setting schedules and routes to travel.. controlling your life and you become dependant on them to decide where you go..

I wouldn't want that, but sometimes if you want to keep the good body guard, you might sometimes need to work within their parameters.

you instead later learn to just wear whats comfortable. so you dress casually to just go about your day without drawing attention to yourself, giving you back your freedom to just do what you want. it also silences the other people who approach you just for handouts(gold digger hoes)

all im saying is when you truly reach that FU status and want to enter f.i.r.e status and experience it. you will learn lessons, and your mindset will change.. i was simply trying to give you a heads up that things will be different to your current plans

I am glad that you are leading the way, so that you can tell us what it is like before we reach such status (or falsely believe that we have reached such status, when we hadn't).  Thanks for taking one for the team.

..if your still in the wanting to waste money impressing people.. you would be in "rich" category..
where as wealthy people have the money to buy anything but find all the impressing others BS, boring and not needed in their life

i do truly hope you go through the FU status, rich status and finally land in the wealth status of f.i.r.e... as its a truly freeing feeling.. goodluck to you, its life changing

Your categorization of those three statuses seem a bit confusing and even stifling..

I would imagine that a lot of people in bitcoin have gained in various ways in regards to building up their bitcoin and having more and more options.  Whether guys choose to quit their jobs or how they choose to spend, invest, consume their wealth seems to have quite a bit of variance, even though surely we could try to put some of them into categories in order to better communicate how we might get there or how we might manage our spending once there, yet I have my doubts about your lecturing about what is meaningful and what is not meaningful is greatly helpful, even if some of us may well agree with some of your points.

I personally believe that we can live quite improved lives with BTC as our wealth, and it may well be quite likely that the BTC value will grow way beyond our spending pace, so if the BTC is allowed to compound in value a few more times, we may well end up with way more wealth than we expected, which may well allow us to go from spending wealthy and wise and into higher levels of extravagance.

It is like going from entry-level fuck you status (FIRE status), end then getting to a point that is multiples higher than the entry-level status, and then perhaps being 10s or even 100x higher than the entry-level fuck you status at a kind of filthy rich status, which some of those higher levels  can come without necessarily having to work hard at it, but just living within one's means and allowing the value to continue to compound, which so far in bitcoin's history, it has compounded many, many times...

bitcoin will compound at far better rate than any bank account interest rate or portfolio manage stock options.. its just picking the target amount where the compounding is growing more then the withdrawal, to decide whats the best number to find sustainable living amount to then retire and enjoy it

can i just offer some advice.. the whole 'fuck you status' of just extravagance/burning money 'cos i can' gets boring quick..

From my perspective, there are varying levels of fuck you status, including the bare minimum of being able to choose not to work.  There is no need to read fuck you status beyond that, even though surely I would concede that even being able to refuse to work full time and only to work part time, could be considered a moderated fuck you status that might ONLY be possible if enough savings/investment is built up to allow for an ability to not be forced to work full time based on having to have enough income to support yourself and your chosen standard of living.

Fuck you status are not reached by savings, this is the point where most people usually get it wrong perhaps winning a lottery won't give the chance of retiring at an early age. Fuck you status are met at the point where monthly, annual and yearly investments has be deployed firmly, it is not just a source of income that will temporarily fit to sustain one's initial need, fuck you status should be at the point where  these build ups can last past several generations.

I found out the best kind of fuck you status are those solid on digital assets, digital firms and companies not just an organization of workers that will one day reduce production and success rate due to certain level of advancement leaving them behind.

I would suggest that there can be a considerable amount of flexibility in terms of how a guy might consider himself reaching fuck you status, and how he might project his ability to either stay in fuck you status or even to potentially continue to increase his wealth (or his level of fuck you status) after he had determined that he is already in it.  So surely, I have done quite a bit of discussion about how to attempt to make fuck you status sustainable, yet at the same time, if a guy might consider his timeline to be limited or maybe he even projects his timeline in a certain number of years, then he might just project how much of whatever wealth he had achieved to be spent within his projection of his timeline. 

I personally prefer to consider sustainability in terms of being able to perpetually spend from a guys investment, yet surely there can be life circumstances that might involve age and/or health that might cause someone to reasonably conclude that projecting a certain number of years is morre practical to their own circumstances.

The FIRE concept is a very interesting financial concept. I am currently reading many articles on this topic.

The main difficulty faced by a person who wants to achieve financial independence is how to earn the initial capital. Very often, a hired worker receives a salary that is enough only to cover current expenses (rent, utilities, travel to and from work, food, shoes, clothes, simple entertainment).

You believe that there aren't ways to increase your income and/or cut your expenses in order to have money to invest, whether into bitcoin  or otherwise?  If you spend all of your money, then it becomes difficult to imagine how you will ever reach FIRE status, absent winning the lottery or some other miracle.

I think that part of the idea of FIRE is to help you to formulate your own destiny, even if there are likely going to be struggles along the way, and you are also not guaranteed to be successful in your efforts to reach your intended goal(s).

Meanwhile, for the purposes of the FIRE concept, income must significantly exceed expenses. Because it is net profit that is the source of funds for investment.

That is, an apologist for the FIRE concept must either become a highly qualified and highly paid employee or the owner of a successful business. Both tasks are quite difficult.

Some folks have more obstacles than others, and of course, the greater your income over your expenses, then the more you can invest and the greater could be your chances of expediting the process of actually reaching FIRE status, and so it could make a difference if you are able to invest $10 per week, $100 per week, $1,000 per week or some other amount in terms of making meaningful progress... including figuring out how much time that you have to do it.. 30-40 years? or some shorter period?  Of course, getting there faster would be nice, but you still have to work within your parameters and if you are able to improve your parameters.

[Moreno233]

I saw this topic earlier than now but I refrained from making comments as I wanted people to add their comments. What I want to add is that some of the points OP raised may not guarantee financial independence because it is far more than what you think. However, there is a one common denominator that most often work for all which is investing and controlling expenditure. I have seen a few comments that supports getting multiple jobs and diversifications and I just smile knowing that working your ass off will only make you financially comfortable but not rich as there are rarely rich people who are employees.

Investing stand out and by investing, it could be in the form of investing time and resources into a business idea or a product and nurturing same into fruition. It could also be in the form of investing money into the ideas and businesses of others such as owning a share in a company or startup. It can come in different nature but investing is surely the way to financial independence and early retirement. Bitcoin is definitely an option that someone can be intentional about and see his life transformed in a decade or two.

[franky1]

One thing about truly being in FIRE status is the ability to chose, since if a person is truly financially independent, then he can choose his activities, including whether some of it might include work or entering into obligations (and/or contracts with others that involve services being done by the FIRE person).

yes being F.I gives you options but if you want to Continue Employment, you would be F.I.C.E
your still missing the point of RETIRING EARLY the R.E part of F.I.R.E

can i just say, even bill gates, elon musk, warren buffet are at ultimate FU status, but because they choose to work they are not in f.i.r.e

You can define things however you like, but it neither means you are correct or that others are going to agree with your way of categorizing matters (activities and/or statuses).

well warren, bill, and elon have not retired so its pretty self explanatory they are not in R.E
i still find it absolutely funny how you want to debate such a simple concept of a obvious acronyms meaning

you collapse into nearly pure ridiculousness and seeming to want to argue for the mere sake of it.

funny thing is i am personally in F.I.R.E so i know it more than you, yet you want to redefine it and think that C.E is the same as R.E
even a tax man can tell the difference

seems you, with no experience of it, are the one that wants to redefine it.. where as the acronym is pretty self explanatory.. im still not sure why you are even debating it
if you want to work so be it but dont pretend you want to be retired and a worker at the same time

i think you need to learn what retiring actually involves. its you trying to collapse the logic and common sense of simple understanding thing into ridiculous concepts

and by the way.. i was giving advice about how your mindset will change when you reach FIRE. i was trying to give you a heads up. kind of like a 'what would you tell your younger self to prepare them' thing.. and its you that wanted to twist it into a debate

yes F.I gives you the choices, freedoms and options.. but the final 2 letters show a choice you made

your mindset/financial status is not yet ready for f.i.r.e

Regarding how any of us spends our days could be another story.  If I might have various amenities such as housing, food, transportation, entertainment in place, yet if I might want to add to such amenities to buy some hookers, lambos and blow, then that is going to change some obligations that I might have in regards to not only the transactions that might be involved and also the extent to which I might enter into obligations in regards to how to manage those hookers, lambos and blow.. will some of that be work?  perhaps?  Perhaps I am changing my obligations and my mindset might not be correct when I choose the purchase of such goods and services.  

well this is getting into some good discussion detail.. for instance many people whom are home parenting argue that cleaning the house is 'work' or that they feel that they shouldnt have to do the housework if they do actual work but had a spouse at home..
.. well normal life chores which need to be done whether you work or not, whether in a relationship or not is not "work" its just life
for instance maintaining a car or your home is things everyone does no matter their employment status.. ordering food, changing your babies diaper, getting your yearly car checks done, changing the oil. cleaning the house.. are all part of LIFE not work

yes you can hire someone to do things, hire a maid, butler, groundsman, to make your LIFE easier.. you can choose to hire a hoe instead of the drama of dating for a proper relationship.. but thats not then to say its "work" if you have to do normal life obligations yourself

we see it all the time on social media skits and reels, women who are single and doing it all themselves call it "independent woman" like its a special thing.. yet reality is its just being an adult doing normal life stuff

to truly be in f.i.r.e you need to be at a financially independent status to retire early
so again if your not at a financially independent status and then not want to retire.. you are not in f.i.r.e... its that simple

Of course, for you it is simple, since you seem to know almost everything.

i dont know everything due to some magic spell cast on me from birth.. i actually take the time to learn, to experience and then to help others learn also..

as for the manner/attitude/way i explain things.. im not obligated to be anyones tutor/mentor, i dont have to act in a boy scout manner when i give advice..
if you think those who offer advice, tips,info,education should do so in a soft, cuddly, kissy-kissy, ass licking, admiring manner, then i think your experience of educators should be reported to the authorities as sexual grooming

my point is that i can easily afford to buy all the shiny things... but my mindset has changed where shiny things have become boring and non essential to my happiness. i prefer to use my funds to buy experiences and meaningful things
frugality in f.i.r.e is not about living like a homeless person to keep wealth.. frugality in fire is about the mindset of affording everything but not needing it all

To me, it seems that shiny things can give meaning and experiences, too... but hey?  what do I know?

again shiny things might seem important for you now. but they will get boring for you later

lets use some base levels here to explain what i mean
imagine you are super poor and cant even afford icecream.. you keep wishing and hoping to improve your finances so that you can buy as much icecream as you want...
.. later you reach financial security to afford icecream, you then learn that icecream is not as exciting as you thought, and you start to decide to not buy icecream at every icecream parlour you pass.. even if you can afford every icecream in sight.. you start a new mindset that you no longer need nor want to buy icecream now you can afford it

same with cars. when you buy your first super car, you then get bored or start realising its flaws, EG the roof height of a lambo means you feel claustrophobic, or that although it can reach 160mph, you only ever get to reach 40mph driving around town, most of the time you are under 10mph to avoid the many potholes and speedbumps damaging the car, so you decide you dont want another 6 lambo's and instead buy a sensible car

its like the christmas paradox
every kid gets excited about the prospects of what they might get at christmas, months before christmas.. but fast forward to just days, weeks, month after christmas that excitement has dampened to such a point that the new phone they wished for and promised to cherish, is now being thrown around like a baseball, where the kid doesnt care if the screen gets cracked they dont want to handle it carefully no more. to them its just another item to hold until the next exciting thing comes to mind

if you have a supercar in mind that you wish for now.. and dream about taking good care of forever as its your lifetimes dream.. ask yourself the question just 6 months after driving it whether its still the perfect lifetimes dream car.. or just something you have now until you find something else

..
you will see your mindset change as your options change, goodluck and i truly do hope you reach your goals

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]......

funny thing is i am personally in F.I.R.E so i know it more than you, yet you want to redefine it and think that C.E is the same as R.E
even a tax man can tell the difference

Sure, it is funny in regards to how presumptuous you can be in your lil strawman arguments and fantasy creations.

..
you will see your mindset change as your options change, goodluck and i truly do hope you reach your goals

Sure, in your post, you may have made a few more points that might be considered potentially interesting, yet largely I consider you to be making strawman arguments, and even arguing against yourself in terms of repetitive kinds of assertions about what you consider to be the person with true retired options.

I gave you some examples regarding how guys might choose to spend their time, and their time could be spent in productive activity or they could be spending time in various hobbies that they choose and they may or may not get paid for their participation in such hobbies.

I am pretty sure that I already asserted that if a person is largely (or even completely) living off of his investments, and he can choose whether or not to work, then he likely fits into the FIRE status.

I don't give too many shits about details that you seem to believe matter, since there is already a lot of power that comes from not having to work, and then choosing activities from there, and surely we could have situations in which guys were planning on continuing to work, and then things happen with their work (their cashflow), and so they might choose whether to replace their previous work with new work or they might decide if they already have sufficient finances in place in order to largely continue to support their previous standard of living.  

There are likely levels of obligations, and surely there may well be differing ways in which income is described on tax forms including if the income is considered to come from working or not or from performance or not, yet sometimes the lines are not clear from merely how the income is described,  and some folks choose to continue to have their "businesses operating" so that they largely end up counting many of their spending as "company expenses," so there can be quite a bit of variation.

I recall a business credit card that I had received recently, and there are various benefits on the credit card, and it is described as a card that needs to be for the business and not for personal expenses.  Interesting how that might be divided and allocated on various personal categorizations of money, including perhaps some of the employees who also ended up receiving credit cards that fell under the same business.  Will any of us be doing any work in the sense that Franky1 considers to be work?  Y

ou have some strange ideas about how matters need to be treated and which folks you consider to be free and not free, and perhaps the FI is the ONLY part that really matters in the FIRE acronym?  Even though I have been participating in this thread, I did not come up with such dumb acronym, even though I am quite fond of what I thought to be the idea of FIRE being similar as the idea of a guy having had determined that he had reached fuck you status.. which surely is enough detail for my own consideration of the matter, and there can be a lot of variance when it comes down to personal application, and whether the lifestyles (or the mindset) are sufficiently free for you (Franky1)./

[franky1]

retired options (meaning remaining retired) is not to go back to work, as obviously you are not retired if you are working
retired options are to: stay home, or do chores, hobbies, or go travelling, socialising and other life stuff.. not involving work*

*work: obligated labour in exchange for income

you keep asserting that going back to work or continuing to work is somehow retiring/being retired, when you keep insanely determining that people can be in work whilst in FIRE status

the FI is important if you want full financial independence(FI) to make ANY choice INCLUDING returning to or continuing work.. but adding the RE means you chose to retire and do life stuff instead, not work stuff

i dont care if you personally want to work after you reach FI (your F U status) but dont describe yourself as retired whilst still affirming that you are working, it makes no sense

as for your last paragraph, you could have just said you dont want to be part of(what you call) a 'dumb acronym' of FIRE. and instead you just want to reach the FI status and continue to have the philosophy to work if you want to
there is no problem and i have no problem with you just wanting to be FI

but the philosophy of FIRE is about the retiring part, as thats what the RE intended meaning is

....

any way
your weird redefinitions of common sense terms has just dramatised this topic more then it needs to

getting back to the topic
working a normal job thats not sufficiently paid wont get you any significant chance to become FI or enter FIRE status
however investments that self accrue and grow at a better than inflation rate, can offer you better chances to reach FI or decide to enter FIRE status
bitcoin definitely helps, and proven has helped me and others already, and can help alot more yet to reach FI

[tottong]

design your life for the future, don't just think about eating or buying snacks today.

For those who are currently undergoing this movement, perhaps you can share your journey here and for those who really want to start this movement, you can ask and have a good discussion here.

Many life journeys may be passed differently and that generally happens in our environment.
Some people actually enjoy life in a more wasteful way but they have good financial resources to fulfill their lives in old age. Some others actually live under financial pressure because even though they have lived a frugal life, they are still unable to prepare for life in old age to be better.
Talking is much easier than implementing patterns because maybe one person's life is different from another person's life and even though they have been well prepared, their lives still do not go as desired.

I believe that life needs to be prepared but we believe in the creator so that if it is done the right way, the old age that we will live will definitely be passed in a much better way because the most important thing in life is about enjoying it not feeling afraid.

[iamsange]

<<<

Many life journeys may be passed differently and that generally happens in our environment.
Some people actually enjoy life in a more wasteful way but they have good financial resources to fulfill their lives in old age. Some others actually live under financial pressure because even though they have lived a frugal life, they are still unable to prepare for life in old age to be better.
Talking is much easier than implementing patterns because maybe one person's life is different from another person's life and even though they have been well prepared, their lives still do not go as desired.

The difference in how to live life in each person cannot be denied because it will always exist in every individual, but for those who continue to want to implement better life plans and patterns, they will definitely not talk much if their own goals have not been achieved. Because you yourself can also see that people who only prefer to talk without implementing a work plan for themselves are people who still have a lazy nature so that these people still often comment on the methods used by others, even though they themselves do not do anything.

I believe that life needs to be prepared but we believe in the creator so that if it is done the right way, the old age that we will live will definitely be passed in a much better way because the most important thing in life is about enjoying it not feeling afraid.

There is nothing to be afraid of in this life as long as we still have the ability to work and fix every step we take towards a better direction. Because people who are still afraid of bad old age conditions are people who still have excessive pessimism so that people no longer count their own efforts and efforts from now on. In fact, everyone who already has a good old age is based on the steps they take now because it is part of the preparation for themselves and also for the people around them.

[tabas]

I've realized that we're all going to that point that our body will tax us with the too work that we've got during our younger days and that's why we also have to plan whether full FIRE or semi, as long as we live comfortably and able to sustain our lifestyle and frugal living. That is impressive. You have not cashing a lot of your BTC and you're able to live comfortably and confidently. I bet that you have some other sources aside from your paper profits in Bitcoin investing and the big thing here is you're living within or even below your means and means comfort to you. I wish that more people are going to do the same as you, despite that have probable huge holdings and seeing $$$ from time to time, not too hungry in taking them all and have a longer game plan.

Of course, each of us has to attempt to best prepare ourselves under our own circumstances, and it can take a long time to build up investments whether we are including bitcoin into our investment portfolio or otherwise, and surely, the less we prepare ourselves, then when we get into our 40s, 50s and 60s we might not have created options for ourselves as we might have had been able to do if we had started preparing somewhat in our youth.

Truly more well-off people will have more resources from which to draw, yet even well off people might not sufficiently and/or adequately prepare themselves, and they may also take their finances for granted, and find out that they have fewer options because they had not started preparing early.

It is likely that many of us will make various screw ups in our finances along the way, and surely some kinds of screw ups are less long term damaging and recoverable than others.. and it is not even always going to be clear until years and years had passed if we might have screwed up some of our decisions earlier on since even  in bitcoin, we might have had been able to invest into it somewhat aggressively in earlier years, and then we might find payouts in current times, yet even if we are a later entrant into bitcoin, we still ONLY have the ability to assess where we are at from the present and make our preparations for the future based on our current circumstances how they are rather than how we wished they would be based on some things that we might have done differently in earlier times.

There might be times in which we might need to keep more of our value in dollar based assets and using some of that for short term income and then maybe some of our bitcoin might be spread into longer term kind of storage and/or income kinds of resources that might not be regularly drawn, so we can try to keep more than one source, in place, but we also might want to make sure that we have enough or more than enough before we start drawing on some sources, rather than if we might still be in the stages of building some of it up.

Some folks might say that they want to continue to work, yet it may not be the case that they want to continue to work but instead that they have to continue to work, and surely it can be difficult to change your circumstances, especially if if you are already in your 60s, then maybe the best you can do is to try to preserve your situation so that you can stop working in your 70s, but you might still be able to slow down in your 60s if you believe that might be a workable kind of arrangement that you had already reached.

I think some of the problems that I had in this thread that I mentioned in my first post in this thread is that guys were talking about FIRE in terms of various traditional investments that they have, yet it seems to me that historically bitcoin has outperformed so many of the traditional investments in such ways that it could be possible that bitcoin is able to give options to guys that would not have had otherwise been possible with traditional investment categories, so bitcoin may well allow for various kinds of abilities for us to supercharge our retirements, yet we still likely need to both manage our getting to enough (or more than enough) bitcoin, and we likely also have to manage our bitcoin so that we are not spending too much of it too soon.

Surely we have seen how folks have gotten screwed in their traditional investments, especially based on dollar debasement happening at way higher levels than they had anticipated to be within the cards and even within the current somewhat hidden status in which so many folks nominaly valuate their abilities, yet find themselves ongoingly losing ground with the value of their income in real terms.

All that you've said make sense, really. It's true that many of the folks that did investments in some other things like in other assets that were doing well in the past but it didn't in the future. While some are putting money with their ROTH IRA and that's what they're leaning towards in the future for their retirement. Each of us for sure went through fire and tested by time and we're fortunate that we're into Bitcoin and this is no doubt the best asset, store of value by time if we'd look at the gains and growth of it. I agree that even with so little in Bitcoin holdings, anyone needs to take care of it until retirement or if that's the choice of anyone here like you and me not to spend all that we've got. Spend some but save more. This is totally what we can put as a candidate for a life changing investment into this era. I think we can say that we're also lucky that we're part of this generation and Bitcoin has came at the right time for most of us. It is imperative when someone who's got some BTC at the early days need to keep it at least 1 or even 0.1 BTC and make it as a goal whether it's for FIRE or some future goals, it just suits everyone's dreams and goals.

I am a testament to this and will continue to do so in keeping a stack of Bitcoin. I've proved it to myself that there's the biggest part in my life that BTC did it all and I reckon this advise and hopefully others will be wise on doing their investments, I'm not saying that I am wise but sure JJG is.  

Of course, bitcoin is not guaranteed to continue to outperform traditional assets, so we have to figure how much of a balance we want to keep in each, even when we are spending from them, so perhaps if we start to get to the cashing out stage, we might end up drawing from each in some kind of proportioned level that helps us to feel comfortable in regards to how much value we are keeping in each or perhaps if we might choose to let the bitcoin portion grow more, even though the formula is not 100% true.

Recently I had been trying to talk a friend into delaying purchasing a house, since there was a trade off between putting the value into the house and keeping value in bitcoin, and such person did not listen to me, and surely it is not my choice to make.  

Many of us likely recall that a median house in 2015 may well have had cost us close to 1,000 bitcoin ($250k), and surely today, even if the median price of house might have more than doubled in the past 10 years, right now a median house of $500k to $1million, the contrast is strong, since such $500k to $1million house will cost us in the ballpark of 6 to 11 BTC, which truly is a big difference, and we don't even have to go that far back to make comparisons, since even in 2019, we might say that a $500k house may well have had cost us around 50 BTC, and so such trend is not necessarily guaranteed, yet we can figure out where we might want to put our value, and sure if we are intent on getting a house we can choose whether to get it now, or if we might want to wait a few years (if we might be able to, and at the same time, we are the one who has to live with the decision, whether we can reasonably recognize what might be for our own financial and/or psychological good or not).. We might not realize the ramifications of our choices until 3-5 years down the road when it may well no longer be an option for us to attempt to revisit our earlier decision..

I agree, if someone can delay the purchase of the house for at least one more cycle. He/she will have to sell fewer bitcoins while keeping the rest of it. But that's it, if it's in immediate action and there's a need to purchase that, that's fine, as long as the person doing that is happy. And like what people used to say, "take profits when happy". But still, don't forget to keep and save some for future references as Bitcoin is here to stay.

Definitely i do see up those kind of people on which even if they do have that other income sources or simply you can really be able to tell that they can survive without having their day job but still they have decided to have some work and never make out that retirement on which we can be able to say that this is indeed someones personal choice whether they will really be that pursuing out their careers for some personal reason on which there's nothing we can do about it since we dont really know their condition or situation behind those actions. The only thing that makes you find out that dayjob sucks is that because of that work stress and other correlated aspect on which this is where you dont really like up to experience.

On the moment or time that you are already on a job position on which you are already that having no stress at all or the workload and responsibility isnt that much then you wont really be trying out to get rid and retire with that job too early but rather you will be considering on having the action on doing it until your body will really be not able to to do or simply on the moment that you do get old and thats someones on basing into such decision on which its not bad either. We are all free on what are the things that we do really wanted to do and it is really that up to ours in accordance into our choices and preferences.

Going to that goal of reaching a position where there is not that much stress at all could go with a lot of things. It could go through with such politics, such skills and experience. So, someone has to choose their career path whether they're on this and retire early based on their game plan with their lives. It's not an easy goal to reach to that point but it is not impossible. But the good thing with this is that, we've got other options through investing and like what we're here, through holding and owning Bitcoin.

[Sim_card]

design your life for the future, don't just think about eating or buying snacks today.

For those who are currently undergoing this movement, perhaps you can share your journey here and for those who really want to start this movement, you can ask and have a good discussion here.

Many life journeys may be passed differently and that generally happens in our environment.
Some people actually enjoy life in a more wasteful way but they have good financial resources to fulfill their lives in old age. Some others actually live under financial pressure because even though they have lived a frugal life, they are still unable to prepare for life in old age to be better.
Talking is much easier than implementing patterns because maybe one person's life is different from another person's life and even though they have been well prepared, their lives still do not go as desired.

I believe that life needs to be prepared but we believe in the creator so that if it is done the right way, the old age that we will live will definitely be passed in a much better way because the most important thing in life is about enjoying it not feeling afraid.

If you are scared of staying poor at old age, then when you are working is the right time for you to plan for your old age by investing in bitcoin to take care of whatever fear in your old age. Life is all about planning, and working towards achieving your goal with all seriousness and focus for it to become reality. However, if you fail to plan for your old age by buying at building your bitcoin portfolio, that's is when you will be very vulnerable to fear and suffering at old age because you failed to secure your old age after retirement. Bitcoin is giving you the opportunity to throw your extra cash into for the future, unlike other assets that isn't easy for a poor man to invest in.

[SuperBitMan]

design your life for the future, don't just think about eating or buying snacks today.

For those who are currently undergoing this movement, perhaps you can share your journey here and for those who really want to start this movement, you can ask and have a good discussion here.

Many life journeys may be passed differently and that generally happens in our environment.
Some people actually enjoy life in a more wasteful way but they have good financial resources to fulfill their lives in old age. Some others actually live under financial pressure because even though they have lived a frugal life, they are still unable to prepare for life in old age to be better.
Talking is much easier than implementing patterns because maybe one person's life is different from another person's life and even though they have been well prepared, their lives still do not go as desired.

I believe that life needs to be prepared but we believe in the creator so that if it is done the right way, the old age that we will live will definitely be passed in a much better way because the most important thing in life is about enjoying it not feeling afraid.

If you are scared of staying poor at old age, then when you are working is the right time for you to plan for your old age by investing in bitcoin to take care of whatever fear in your old age. Life is all about planning, and working towards achieving your goal with all seriousness and focus for it to become reality. However, if you fail to plan for your old age by buying at building your bitcoin portfolio, that's is when you will be very vulnerable to fear and suffering at old age because you failed to secure your old age after retirement. Bitcoin is giving you the opportunity to throw your extra cash into for the future, unlike other assets that isn't easy for a poor man to invest in.

You are correct, Bitcoin is one of the best investment right now in the world, and one of the reasons why I said so is because Bitcoin investment is very accommodating, no matter how small your source of income is you can still accumulate or go into Bitcoin investment, yes Bitcoin is expensive but is divided into small units so with $3 you can accumulate.
The reason why some people become poor in there old age is because they didn't plan there finance very well, as a worker you need to have a retirement plan, and that plan should be building an investment that will help you financially when you are not working anymore, there are different kind of investment you can go into in other to secure your future however any investment that can be controlled by the government should be invested with caution, because you can lose everything if the government decides to make a policy that will work against your investment, there was something that happened in a country, a man built a crude oil refinery and was managing it by himself, some years later the government of that country decided that crude oil refining will only be done by the government and that private refinery will no longer have power to refine crude oil in that country, that was how the man lost his investment.
So investing on something the government can control is very risky and that is another reason why Bitcoin investment is one of the best investment in the world no government has control over it.

[AmoreJaz]

design your life for the future, don't just think about eating or buying snacks today.

For those who are currently undergoing this movement, perhaps you can share your journey here and for those who really want to start this movement, you can ask and have a good discussion here.

Many life journeys may be passed differently and that generally happens in our environment.
Some people actually enjoy life in a more wasteful way but they have good financial resources to fulfill their lives in old age. Some others actually live under financial pressure because even though they have lived a frugal life, they are still unable to prepare for life in old age to be better.
Talking is much easier than implementing patterns because maybe one person's life is different from another person's life and even though they have been well prepared, their lives still do not go as desired.

I believe that life needs to be prepared but we believe in the creator so that if it is done the right way, the old age that we will live will definitely be passed in a much better way because the most important thing in life is about enjoying it not feeling afraid.

As long as you know where you are heading to and you know your goals in life, it means, you are living for something. Because when you lose the interest of living, it means, you can't find something that will drive you to continue your life, whether for you or your own family. Sometimes you need to find the reason of living to find a way how to survive in your everyday challenge.

I saw this topic earlier than now but I refrained from making comments as I wanted people to add their comments. What I want to add is that some of the points OP raised may not guarantee financial independence because it is far more than what you think. However, there is a one common denominator that most often work for all which is investing and controlling expenditure. I have seen a few comments that supports getting multiple jobs and diversifications and I just smile knowing that working your ass off will only make you financially comfortable but not rich as there are rarely rich people who are employees.

Investing stand out and by investing, it could be in the form of investing time and resources into a business idea or a product and nurturing same into fruition. It could also be in the form of investing money into the ideas and businesses of others such as owning a share in a company or startup. It can come in different nature but investing is surely the way to financial independence and early retirement. Bitcoin is definitely an option that someone can be intentional about and see his life transformed in a decade or two.

However, not all people are acquianted in this market, hence, they will invest in other options such as real-estate, precious metals and other tangible assets. Either way, as long as he knows what he's doing with his assets, he has the chance to reap his profits in the future. Because the main point of investing is to earn profit later on.

[SamReomo]

Some folks have more obstacles than others, and of course, the greater your income over your expenses, then the more you can invest and the greater could be your chances of expediting the process of actually reaching FIRE status, and so it could make a difference if you are able to invest $10 per week, $100 per week, $1,000 per week or some other amount in terms of making meaningful progress... including figuring out how much time that you have to do it.. 30-40 years? or some shorter period?  Of course, getting there faster would be nice, but you still have to work within your parameters and if you are able to improve your parameters.

Yes, whatever you said is very true and I fully agree with you. There are some people who start their journey from low income and overtime if they follow F.I.R.E path then they'll keep increasing their income overtime and may still reach financial independence in early age. Investing $10 is better than investing nothing per week and that $10 can turn into $20 or more when it's invested into a good asset like Bitcoin over the course of some years or months depending on its popularity.

The ones who started investing $10 or $20 per week into Bitcoin from 2015-2016 are still in enough profit and they might reach F.I.R.E status sooner than the ones who start investing in it from today, but after 10 years the ones who invested in it during 2015-2016, and the ones who started investing in it from today, both will win, and there's chance that both group of investors might be free from financial issues after next 10-20 years and they may retire earlier than their colleagues.