Financial Independence Retire Early [F.I.R.E]

[Oluwa-btc]

Investing Consistently: Setting aside most of your income to be invested in instruments that generate passive income, such as stocks, bonds, real estate or maybe you can choose Gold & Bitcoin in your portofolio

Even in retirement, some people will still be on the look out for business and money making opportunities because you can retire from a job, but not from the need to get or make money. Profitable investments at a young age will help ensure a better retirement.

After investing from a younger age, financial maturity and wisdom is also necessary to make sure that you do not eat the investments before they mature properly.

Financial maturity is what triggers and encourages early retirement.After so many years of hard work and consistent, people still get confused to retire or not.Retiring is only easy when you're financially stable with passive income and opportunities that wouldn't require much stress.Early retirement is a personal choice but it's most times not considered appropriately.

[MarjorieZimmermanGinger]

Early retirement is a good idea but we must prepare everything from now on so when the time come, we will not feel difficult to pass on our lives. The more source of income that we can have, the more better our live so we don't have to bother with how to fills our daily needs plus other expenses when we are old.

We have our option how we want to do so it is better if we thinks what we can do when we are still young. So when the old time comes, we will not regret it.

The idea may be good but it will be a little difficult in the implementation process because when deciding to take early retirement, we should have prepared a much better life than before so that this step will not make things worse. If you start to stop working and how to make money at a time like that, this is a step that may need to be prepared carefully and I personally prefer to decide to work while I am still productive enough to make money at work.

No one can predict life in the future so having a job can provide a little certainty to fulfill a much better life. Early retirement is much harder when someone faces financial problems later in life and the effects may extend further to more crucial matters.

[STT]

I don't believe they will retire and stop working entirely. They can start a business

I believe flexibility is the main achievement they are hoping for.    So yes quit and 'retire'  for 3 years, maybe to have children or travel the world or both.  The main objective seems to be to work hard save harder then actually live a proper life outside of the big city smoke and be a normal family of some kind not caught in the rat trap that is often modern working for many.

Its one of the most sensible ideas modern generations have come up with.  The rejection of conspicuous consumption is something to be lauded as we waste so much and value little in modern economies.  Its great to see people finding ways to learn skills to avoid waste and paying others for this saving drive etc.
    Commuting in both time and money to me is such a waste of humanity, every step away from that traffic jam pollution failure of a business model is an advance for all of humanity imo.   It is questionable if people of plain working class skill set can thrive as easily as the more elevated professions both in money and demand they can command but imo if people can learn trades like carpentry its possible (there is always demand for honest work and so leverage to achieve this fire concept).

[JayJuanGee]

It seems a bit strange that I read through this whole thread, and there were not too many responding members who were really attempting to grapple how bitcoin fits into this FIRE concept, except perhaps Franky1 had the post that discussed the FIRE idea in light of his bitcoin holdings.

Surely, the main underlying ideas of how FIRE plays out within traditional assets are sufficiently outlined in OP, which largely is that when any of us might decide upon living off of our investments in a passive income kind of a way, our annual withdrawal rate should on average be less than the amount that the various investments are earning, so in that sense on average the investment portfolio is not getting smaller in terms of its dollar value, and if we have 25x our annual income/expenses, then withdrawing 4% per year remains enough to sustain ourselves at that same rate for an indefinite period of time, and presumptively in a perpetual basis.

We still potentially have the problem of calculating real rates versus nominal rates, and surely with ongoing debasement of the dollar we may well find that such a fixed income may well not keep up with how the costs of goods and services continue to rise in prices at a rate that is much greater so that we may well have to suffer from ongoing decreases in our standard of living and/or spending less each year in real terms if we maintain the same flat rate of withdrawal at 4%.  Surely, if we are able to invest in assets that generally appreciate more than 4% per year, then we may well be able to account for the debasement of the dollar by increasing our withdrawal rate in order to account for such ongoing increases in our cost of living.

I personally believe that bitcoin resolves a lot of the issues, yet surely there could be questions and concerns that the FIRE persons might have in regards to how much of their investment portfolio that they might keep in bitcoin as compared with other places that they might hold their assets.  Personally, I don't have any problem with the idea of treating the bitcoin investment differently from any traditional assets that are in place, and so perhaps just continue to withdraw  from traditional assets using the 4 % formula and then withdrawing from bitcoin to supplement such withdrawal and to withdraw from bitcoin last, since bitcoin remains amongst the best, if not the best investment that any of us could have.

There are also possibilities that guys choose to ONLY have bitcoin as their investment and NOT to have other traditional categories of investment, so in that case, the bitcoin holdings would serve as the FIRE asset, and I personally believe that if a guy valuates his BTC properly, by measuring the value of his bitcoin in accordance with the 200-WMA (bottom prices) rather than spot prices (which tend to be all over the place), I personally speculate that retaining investments in bitcoin a person could withdraw up to 10% per year based on the dollar value of the 200-WMA, which largely means that a guy would ONLY have to have 10 years of his expenses/expected annual income in bitcoin so long as he is valuating his BTC holdings at the 200-WMA, and perhaps in engaging in other protective measures, as I describe in my sustainable withdrawal thread, which means engaging in reductions of his withdrawal rate if the BTC spot price goes below 25% above the 200-WMA and other kinds of withdrawal reductions as I describe within the sustainable withdrawal tool guidelines.

For example, look at this:
>>>>>"When the BTC spot price is at least 25% above the 200-week moving average, then at least 1 month's withdrawal will be authorized; however,

A) if the BTC spot price is between 10% and 25% above the 200-week moving average, then you will be authorized to withdraw for only 90% of the current month's limit.
B. if the BTC spot price is between 0% and 10% above the 200-week moving average, then you will be authorized to withdraw for only 85% of the current month's limit.
C. if the BTC spot price is between 0% and 20% below the 200-week moving average, then you will be authorized to withdraw for only 70% of the current month's limit.
D. if the BTC spot price is between 20% and 30% below the 200-week moving average, then you will be authorized to withdraw for only 50% of the current month's limit.
E. if the BTC spot price is greater than 30% and 35% below the 200-week moving average, then you will be authorized to withdraw for only 40% of the current month's limit.
F. if the BTC spot price is greater than 35% below the 200-week moving average, then you will be not be authorized to withdraw any BTC from the budget."<<<<<<

Surely guys can also stick with lower levels of withdrawal of their BTC such as some where between 4-10% (perhaps even at the lower ends of such range), which from my thinking would allow their BTC holdings to continue to grow while they may perhaps decide to defer their actions of withdrawing at something like a 10% annual rate... and yeah, of course, anyone who overly depletes their BTC too soon, ONLY have themselves to blame for failing to figure out a withdrawal system that would end up playing out in sufficiently sustainable ways.

By the way, another foundational idea underlying FIRE is that any person in such a position has the option to work or not to work, and so his various investments are able to sustain him, and likely the ONLY mandatory work that he would have to do would just be in line with managing whatever accounts that he has, which hopefully would not be such a complicated matter that would take more than a few hours a week, at most.  So, being in a position of FIRE would not require the guy do any kind of work in order to sustain his standard of living and perhaps even to increase his standard of living within reasonable bounds.  Surely if a guy is not yet at a place to be able to sustain himself (or perhaps increase his standard of living within his desired parameters) upon his assessment that he has reached FIRE status, then it could be possible that he has miscalculated in term of his having had reached such FIRE status.

Another thing is that there are guys who claim to have reached FIRE status and they continue to work, and if it is true that they don't need such work in order to remain comfortable financially, then surely it may well be the case that their choice of continuing to work is optional, and surely there could be some guys who are lying to themselves, and they really may well need to supplement their finances through ongoing work because their FIRE investments are not enough to sustain their chosen standard of living.

Many times none of us would really know individual motivations and/or whether guys are merely lying to themselves if they are putting themselves into a status they have not reached, and sure there is nothing wrong with living a life with some internal contradictions, as long as we know that we are doing it and we are hopefully not living too much of a fantasy in such a way that we are not being honest with ourselves... but yeah, some guys still might get into a position that they don't really have much choice except to lie to themselves to make themselves feel better about their actual situation.

[OsaiEmma]

It seems a bit strange that I read through this whole thread, and there were not too many responding members who were really attempting to grapple how bitcoin fits into this FIRE concept, except perhaps Franky1 had the post that discussed the FIRE idea in light of his bitcoin holdings.

Surely, the main underlying ideas of how FIRE plays out within traditional assets are sufficiently outlined in OP, which largely is that when any of us might decide upon living off of our investments in a passive income kind of a way, our annual withdrawal rate should on average be less than the amount that the various investments are earning, so in that sense on average the investment portfolio is not getting smaller in terms of its dollar value, and if we have 25x our annual income/expenses, then withdrawing 4% per year remains enough to sustain ourselves at that same rate for an indefinite period of time, and presumptively in a perpetual basis.

We still potentially have the problem of calculating real rates versus nominal rates, and surely with ongoing debasement of the dollar we may well find that such a fixed income may well not keep up with how the costs of goods and services continue to rise in prices at a rate that is much greater so that we may well have to suffer from ongoing decreases in our standard of living and/or spending less each year in real terms if we maintain the same flat rate of withdrawal at 4%.  Surely, if we are able to invest in assets that generally appreciate more than 4% per year, then we may well be able to account for the debasement of the dollar by increasing our withdrawal rate in order to account for such ongoing increases in our cost of living.

I personally believe that bitcoin resolves a lot of the issues, yet surely there could be questions and concerns that the FIRE persons might have in regards to how much of their investment portfolio that they might keep in bitcoin as compared with other places that they might hold their assets.  Personally, I don't have any problem with the idea of treating the bitcoin investment differently from any traditional assets that are in place, and so perhaps just continue to withdraw  from traditional assets using the 4 % formula and then withdrawing from bitcoin to supplement such withdrawal and to withdraw from bitcoin last, since bitcoin remains amongst the best, if not the best investment that any of us could have.

There are also possibilities that guys choose to ONLY have bitcoin as their investment and NOT to have other traditional categories of investment, so in that case, the bitcoin holdings would serve as the FIRE asset, and I personally believe that if a guy valuates his BTC properly, by measuring the value of his bitcoin in accordance with the 200-WMA (bottom prices) rather than spot prices (which tend to be all over the place), I personally speculate that retaining investments in bitcoin a person could withdraw up to 10% per year based on the dollar value of the 200-WMA, which largely means that a guy would ONLY have to have 10 years of his expenses/expected annual income in bitcoin so long as he is valuating his BTC holdings at the 200-WMA, and perhaps in engaging in other protective measures, as I describe in my sustainable withdrawal thread, which means engaging in reductions of his withdrawal rate if the BTC spot price goes below 25% above the 200-WMA and other kinds of withdrawal reductions as I describe within the sustainable withdrawal tool guidelines.

For example, look at this:
>>>>>"When the BTC spot price is at least 25% above the 200-week moving average, then at least 1 month's withdrawal will be authorized; however,

A) if the BTC spot price is between 10% and 25% above the 200-week moving average, then you will be authorized to withdraw for only 90% of the current month's limit.
B. if the BTC spot price is between 0% and 10% above the 200-week moving average, then you will be authorized to withdraw for only 85% of the current month's limit.
C. if the BTC spot price is between 0% and 20% below the 200-week moving average, then you will be authorized to withdraw for only 70% of the current month's limit.
D. if the BTC spot price is between 20% and 30% below the 200-week moving average, then you will be authorized to withdraw for only 50% of the current month's limit.
E. if the BTC spot price is greater than 30% and 35% below the 200-week moving average, then you will be authorized to withdraw for only 40% of the current month's limit.
F. if the BTC spot price is greater than 35% below the 200-week moving average, then you will be not be authorized to withdraw any BTC from the budget."<<<<<<

Surely guys can also stick with lower levels of withdrawal of their BTC such as some where between 4-10% (perhaps even at the lower ends of such range), which from my thinking would allow their BTC holdings to continue to grow while they may perhaps decide to defer their actions of withdrawing at something like a 10% annual rate... and yeah, of course, anyone who overly depletes their BTC too soon, ONLY have themselves to blame for failing to figure out a withdrawal system that would end up playing out in sufficiently sustainable ways.

By the way, another foundational idea underlying FIRE is that any person in such a position has the option to work or not to work, and so his various investments are able to sustain him, and likely the ONLY mandatory work that he would have to do would just be in line with managing whatever accounts that he has, which hopefully would not be such a complicated matter that would take more than a few hours a week, at most.  So, being in a position of FIRE would not require the guy do any kind of work in order to sustain his standard of living and perhaps even to increase his standard of living within reasonable bounds.  Surely if a guy is not yet at a place to be able to sustain himself (or perhaps increase his standard of living within his desired parameters) upon his assessment that he has reached FIRE status, then it could be possible that he has miscalculated in term of his having had reached such FIRE status.

Another thing is that there are guys who claim to have reached FIRE status and they continue to work, and if it is true that they don't need such work in order to remain comfortable financially, then surely it may well be the case that their choice of continuing to work is optional, and surely there could be some guys who are lying to themselves, and they really may well need to supplement their finances through ongoing work because their FIRE investments are not enough to sustain their chosen standard of living.

Many times none of us would really know individual motivations and/or whether guys are merely lying to themselves if they are putting themselves into a status they have not reached, and sure there is nothing wrong with living a life with some internal contradictions, as long as we know that we are doing it and we are hopefully not living too much of a fantasy in such a way that we are not being honest with ourselves... but yeah, some guys still might get into a position that they don't really have much choice except to lie to themselves to make themselves feel better about their actual situation.

Well, with this, I can now understand perfectly well how BTC can enable an individual achieve FIRE, from the OP's post here

Investing Consistently: Setting aside most of your income to be invested in instruments that generate passive income, such as stocks, bonds, real estate or maybe you can choose Gold & Bitcoin in your portofolio.

If proper investment is made and your BTC portfolio has grown to a point where you can sustain a particular lifestyle, using the method you explained on withdrawing using the 200-wma will really be a good idea, but at the same time, diversifying your investment alongside BTC will be most ideal if this method should be implemented. Cause certainly, there would be a time in which the price will be even lower than 35% of the 200-wma as you stated earlier, at that point, you won't be able to make any withdrawals (strictly following the strategy you provided), then for that month, no bills will be paid, it can sometimes remain below 30% of the 200-wma for months, then living a sustainable lifestyle might be difficult.

With this, I suggest that, having BTC as a means of achieving FIRE (which is the best) it should be complimented with gold investment or any other sustainable investment so as to offset the setbacks of BTC, seeing that having all your eggs in one basket is a dangerous feat. You also provided the option of working and that is a really solid idea too or you can start up a business that you have always wanted to although, not everyone have the ability to do so. The option of investing in real estate is also there, maybe good stocks too but along side BTC so as to have a more realistic FIRE when the time comes.

But what if we have a scenario where you are a long time investor in BTC and your portfolio have grown to the extent it has beat so many ATH's of BTC, at that point, will withdrawing despite having your price go lower than 30% of the 200-wma be sustainable, I know it's important to have a strategy so as not to deplete your portfolio, but is there a situation where the less than 30% condition can be overlooked, maybe taking 1-2% profit during those period, cause at the end of the day, BTC price will see another ATH bringing your investment high again dollar-wise.

[OsaiEmma]

I don't believe they will retire and stop working entirely. They can start a business

I believe flexibility is the main achievement they are hoping for.    So yes quit and 'retire'  for 3 years, maybe to have children or travel the world or both.  The main objective seems to be to work hard save harder then actually live a proper life outside of the big city smoke and be a normal family of some kind not caught in the rat trap that is often modern working for many.

Its one of the most sensible ideas modern generations have come up with.  The rejection of conspicuous consumption is something to be lauded as we waste so much and value little in modern economies.  Its great to see people finding ways to learn skills to avoid waste and paying others for this saving drive etc.
    Commuting in both time and money to me is such a waste of humanity, every step away from that traffic jam pollution failure of a business model is an advance for all of humanity imo.   It is questionable if people of plain working class skill set can thrive as easily as the more elevated professions both in money and demand they can command but imo if people can learn trades like carpentry its possible (there is always demand for honest work and so leverage to achieve this fire concept).

So, in your opinion, skills are better than having a business for retirement plan or 'FIRE' plans, well that could be true cause if you have an on demand skill and it's something you love doing, that certainly could be the best retirement plant ever, but what about investing in your talent too, like let's say football or music, are painting, e.t.c, or maybe you have a talent in business too who knows, IMO, I think FIRE plan should be something you love doing and that brings income so as to compliment your retirement

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

If proper investment is made and your BTC portfolio has grown to a point where you can sustain a particular lifestyle, using the method you explained on withdrawing using the 200-wma will really be a good idea, but at the same time, diversifying your investment alongside BTC will be most ideal if this method should be implemented. Cause certainly, there would be a time in which the price will be even lower than 35% of the 200-wma as you stated earlier, at that point, you won't be able to make any withdrawals (strictly following the strategy you provided), then for that month, no bills will be paid, it can sometimes remain below 30% of the 200-wma for months, then living a sustainable lifestyle might be difficult.

Fair enough that some form of diversification may well be justified to prepare for possible time periods in which BTC spot prices start to go below 25% above the 200-WMA, and it may well end up in periods of going as far as 35% below the 200-WMA, and so sure, none of us  should want to be selling BTC at a time that is not of our complete choosing and we may well choose to either sell from other assets first or perhaps have emergency funds (in cash, or something  more similar to cash) for those kinds of periods that we might not be wanting to use much if any of our BTC.

Diversification can be a confusing term in the bitcoin and/or crypto space because some folks may well consider that they might need to be diversified into shitcoins, which could even make matters worse for anyone to be exposing themselves to shitcoins and considering that they are diversifying outside of bitcoin.. even though surely there could be various kinds of funds that could be available for use in emergencies that could be considered diversification beyond bitcoin.. so perhaps if a person may have 10 years or more of his expenses/income in bitcoin at a 200-WMA valuation, then during the periods that bitcoin had been appreciating in value there could have had been some motivations to sell some of those BTC to keep in cash  (whether it might be 10% or more) or perhaps to put that value into other kinds of somewhat liquid locations that are similar to cash.   

Many of us may well recall that from June 2022 until about October 2023, BTC prices spent a lot of time at or below the 200-WMA, and we did reach peak lows of BTC prices 35% below the 200-WMA, and even though that period of 35% below the 200-WMA did not last for very long, there still could have been concerns of BTC holders about cashing out any of their BTC during periods of those kinds of BTC price levels.

With this, I suggest that, having BTC as a means of achieving FIRE (which is the best) it should be complimented with gold investment or any other sustainable investment so as to offset the setbacks of BTC,

I am not personally too excited about gold or the need for gold,

seeing that having all your eggs in one basket is a dangerous feat.

You can keep cash, equities, properties, and other forms of protecting yourself besides gold, yet sure, I am not 100% against gold, but there could be issues of getting out of gold, and if you have systems in place for getting in and out of gold, then sure, it could serve some balancing kind of purpose to help a guy from not having to cash out very much of his BTC at a time that is not of his choosing.

You also provided the option of working and that is a really solid idea too or you can start up a business that you have always wanted to although, not everyone have the ability to do so. The option of investing in real estate is also there, maybe good stocks too but along side BTC so as to have a more realistic FIRE when the time comes.

Sure.. there could be side sources of income, especially that might involve kinds of work that a guy is choosing to perform, yet surely if there is reliance on the work because BTC prices are crashing, that could also mean that a person had entered into a FIRE status at a time in which he was not prepared...

And yeah, surely property can be a way in which someone is diversified in his investments and he could get income from properties too.. and hopefully not forced to work to manage the properties, even though some level of work may be part of a lot of various kinds of obligations that guys might realize that they have in regards to the kinds of investments that they choose, and so yeah in the context of owning a business and being a behind the scenes player in the business, sometimes a person with those kinds of businesses might end up being forced to work in circumstances in which the business ends up blowing up in ways that had not been anticipated..

In 2015, I had a business partner who was supposed to be doing a lot of work for "our business" and so I ended up having to spend quite a bit of time picking up pieces between 2015 and 2019.. and sure it was not a full-time job, but it ended up being more work than I had wanted to do. ..

But what if we have a scenario where you are a long time investor in BTC and your portfolio have grown to the extent it has beat so many ATH's of BTC, at that point, will withdrawing despite having your price go lower than 30% of the 200-wma be sustainable, I know it's important to have a strategy so as not to deplete your portfolio, but is there a situation where the less than 30% condition can be overlooked, maybe taking 1-2% profit during those period, cause at the end of the day, BTC price will see another ATH bringing your investment high again dollar-wise.

A person can have cushions in his BTC holdings, and perhaps the point that a person first gets into FIRE status, there may be more uncertainties, and so if he is conservatively withdrawing from his BTC, then his BTC is still growing, and so if he goes through another BTC cycle, he may even be in a better place.

So the guy with 100 BTC in the beginning of 2021, might have felt that he was struggling to be careful during the 2022 and 2023 periods of BTC price difficulties, so maybe between early 2021 and now, he ended up spending 33% of his BTC stash, so he currently ONLY has 67 BTC, yet he still is doing much better now with 67 BTC as compared to how he was doing during the 2022 difficulty period, so part of his concern would be to make sure that he has enough and more than enough BTC when he enters into a FIRE status/practice.

In some other threads, I had mentioned that the guy who is currently aiming at 21 BTC is going to feel in a much better position if he happens to have 35 BTC right now and with a lot of options, as compared with the guy who has 7 BTC and is still working towards getting to a status of having enough or more than enough BTC... so sure, anywhere between 21 BTC to 35BTC may well feel fine, yet the guy might not feel good about going into FIRE status until he is 60% above the goal, and it surely would be premature for him to be going into such FIRE status/practices if he was still 60% below the goal, yet in 4-6 years that guy with 7 BTC might either be at or near the goal, he might even choose to wait a few more years to make sure that the 7 BTC that he has is more than enough for him to feel comfortable that he is 30% to 60% higher than what he considers his goal, which also it seems to me that bitcoin allows for those kinds of expectations and preparations - even if the matter of getting there is not guaranteed to happen exactly within any kind of a specific timeline, but the guy can still have good ideas how to deal with his situation once he has already spent a few cycles building up his BTC stack size.

[Strongkored]

In conclusion, this is a movement where you can immediately achieve early retirement as quickly as possible.

summarized from various sources, here are some tricks to achieve F.I.R.E

I never thought and also won't to retire early, because working is part of human life, by continuing to work your body will continue to move because rarely moving will actually make your body experience a decline in function and disease will start to approach you.
For me early retirement is nonsense, humans should continue to work, maybe the intensity of work decreases with age and busyness in work will keep your brain working.

[franky1]

In conclusion, this is a movement where you can immediately achieve early retirement as quickly as possible.

summarized from various sources, here are some tricks to achieve F.I.R.E

I never thought and also won't to retire early, because working is part of human life, by continuing to work your body will continue to move because rarely moving will actually make your body experience a decline in function and disease will start to approach you.
For me early retirement is nonsense, humans should continue to work, maybe the intensity of work decreases with age and busyness in work will keep your brain working.

retirement should not be thought of as the traditional retirement of sitting at home watching tv all day due to reaching old age of not being able to functionally work anymore..
FIRE is not about declining health and need to stop operating in work(traditional retirement)

FIRE is about being financially independent to not need to work yourself to death, but instead giving you more freedom and time to enjoy life and explore and experience new things

dont waste opportunity to retire early just to become a sofa cushion.. enjoy the freedom of time and income independence BEFORE you reach the health decline stage that stops you from enjoying the time off

[bitmover]

Surely, the main underlying ideas of how FIRE plays out within traditional assets are sufficiently outlined in OP, which largely is that when any of us might decide upon living off of our investments in a passive income kind of a way, our annual withdrawal rate should on average be less than the amount that the various investments are earning, so in that sense on average the investment portfolio is not getting smaller in terms of its dollar value, and if we have 25x our annual income/expenses, then withdrawing 4% per year remains enough to sustain ourselves at that same rate for an indefinite period of time, and presumptively in a perpetual basis.

I don't think this strategy makes sense. It is too conservative. And will force you to work more

We don't need to sustain ourselves in perpetual basis, because our life isn't perpetual.

You just need money to live at most 110 years.

Making correct assumptions about your long you will live will allow you to make higher withdrawals, allowing you to withdrawal more than your investment earnings annually.  Because you don't need to die with your portfolio intact.

[NotATether]

I don't like the particular execution of this idea because a goal of 25x your living expenses will only last you for 25 years and then after that you'd have to go to work again. 

But more importantly many people thing that the way to become rich enough to retire early is to penny-pinch as much as possible, but that makes you quite miserly and you won't be able to enjoy anything.

[Renampun]

retirement should not be thought of as the traditional retirement of sitting at home watching tv all day due to reaching old age of not being able to functionally work anymore..
FIRE is not about declining health and need to stop operating in work(traditional retirement)

FIRE is about being financially independent to not need to work yourself to death, but instead giving you more freedom and time to enjoy life and explore and experience new things

dont waste opportunity to retire early just to become a sofa cushion.. enjoy the freedom of time and income independence BEFORE you reach the health decline stage that stops you from enjoying the time off

you have a good sentence here, many people misunderstand that early retirement is those who relax at home and burden their lives by sitting on the couch all day eating unhealthy food all day, this is a wrong perception, the purpose of FIRE is to make us as humans become completely free humans who are not chased by work deadlines and also insecure with termination of employment that can be experienced at any time.

although I am still far from being able to do this FIRE, but I personally really dream of being one of the FIRE activists, because the life they live is very perfect and free.

[WeThePe0ple]

The author of the channel "Retire at 35" likes to repeat that capital is earned not on the stock market, but in other places. The stock (cryptocurrency) market is a financial instrument for saving, not for making money.

Why not for both?

[JayJuanGee]

Fair enough that some form of diversification may well be justified to prepare for possible time periods in which BTC spot prices start to go below 25% above the 200-WMA, and it may well end up in periods of going as far as 35% below the 200-WMA, and so sure, none of us  should want to be selling BTC at a time that is not of our complete choosing and we may well choose to either sell from other assets first or perhaps have emergency funds (in cash, or something  more similar to cash) for those kinds of periods that we might not be wanting to use much if any of our BTC.

Diversification can be a confusing term in the bitcoin and/or crypto space because some folks may well consider that they might need to be diversified into shitcoins, which could even make matters worse for anyone to be exposing themselves to shitcoins and considering that they are diversifying outside of bitcoin.. even though surely there could be various kinds of funds that could be available for use in emergencies that could be considered diversification beyond bitcoin.. so perhaps if a person may have 10 years or more of his expenses/income in bitcoin at a 200-WMA valuation, then during the periods that bitcoin had been appreciating in value there could have had been some motivations to sell some of those BTC to keep in cash  (whether it might be 10% or more) or perhaps to put that value into other kinds of somewhat liquid locations that are similar to cash.   

This is so true, selling 10% to keep in cash or similar when BTC is high, is a good strategy for FIRE plan, cause with this, there will be hay for rainy days. And, this will give you peace of mind as not to worry about the bearish sentiment of the market in terms of taking out profit, because as you've said, nobody wants to be selling when BTC is down, nice idea.

First off, your quoting sucks, OsaiEmma. I think that I fixed this one, but you need to figure out how to more correctly quote posts.

Back to the topic.  

I am reluctant to suggest what guys should do exactly, even though there are likely needs to create some kinds of financial cushions in order to stay in a kind of sustainable withdrawal status rather than devolving into too much risk taking that would end up playing out like gambling, which no one should be wanting to be putting their personal finance management into a gambling kind of status, even if such status might be temporary.  

General practices would be that guys want to hold 3-6 months of emergency funds in a form of cash, when there could be an emergency, yet if in advance, we already know that BTC prices have tendencies to be quite volatile, yet we still don't know if the BTC spot price is going to go below the 200-WMA... yet we could anticipate that there could be some periods in which BTC prices do end up going below the 200-WMA.. Our withdrawal tool that I had previously cited does have some suggested advance month cashing out periods that are based on BTC price moves higher than the 200-WMA, and surely those kinds of advance month cashing out recommendations could be used to set aside some extra cash that could be used in periods that the BTC spot price gets close to the 25% above the 200-WMA or if the BTC price falls below the 200WMA.. and surely any of these kinds of preemptive strategies could end up running their own risks, so it is difficult to prescribe individually specific kinds of plays - even though surely the tool does attempt to give some guidelines for some of those kinds of extra month cash outs that could serve as insurance if the were timely employed.

Another thing is that the more extra BTC that a person has at the time of going into FIRE status, then the easier it should be to depart with some of the extra BTC during UPpity BTC price periods in order to attempt to make sure that there is some preparations and insurance in place in case the future brings forth extended periods in which the BTC price is close to or below the 200-WMA.

Investing in shitcoins to diversify your investment would really be a terrible idea 😂😂. Those are too volatile and can just come crashing down anytime.

Another problem with shitcoins is that they don't really seem to be real/meaningful diversification, since historically they have largely remained correlated with BTC price performance, and so historically,  investing in shitcoins would not have had brought very much diversification, and there is no real evidence that any shitcoins will break their correlation in bitcoin in any kind of meaningful and/or reliable way... so even though breaking correlation is a possibility, it seems risky to bet on any kind of break of correlation, absent a guy having some specific and reliable knowledge about some specific shitcoin that might have success in the breaking of such correlation to bitcoin.  I have no clue of the existence of any such shitcoin, even though many of them market themselves as if they were capable of breaking such correlation with bitcoin..and/or that such break in correlation might go beyond short-term blips.

You can keep cash, equities, properties, and other forms of protecting yourself besides gold, yet sure, I am not 100% against gold, but there could be issues of getting out of gold, and if you have systems in place for getting in and out of gold, then sure, it could serve some balancing kind of purpose to help a guy from not having to cash out very much of his BTC at a time that is not of his choosing.

One way of getting in and out of gold is the use of reputable brokers, u can use good brokers to buy and sell gold in the forex market, well it's NFA(not financial advice, cause I'm not a financial expert) but I think that works but still it's also risky too.

If you are not dealing with physical gold, then you seem to be running risk in terms of your brokers being able to get in and out of gold at times that you might need such liquidity, and sure it might work for portions of some liquidity that you might need.  I am not in such practice, even though I frequently argue against gold based on ideas of bitcoin being better rather than short term liquidity ideas that might be valid for some people and in some circumstances.. and sometimes we might ONLY want to keep a few months of our emergency funds in cash or cash equivalent products, so surely something that takes a bit longer to get in and out of might not be a problem so long as we also have the cash that might be used in the short term.

I personally start to get nervous if I start to see shortages in my cashflow 2 or 3 months in advance, and I would think that most folks with solid cashflow management will pretty much have money in the bank that is going to cover anything for the upcoming month, yet as soon as some kind of payment does not come in that is supposed to come in, then there surely might be some short term scrambling to make sure that enough funds are present for the current month and then there can become some cascading events on subsequent months if there might not be enough liquidity that can come available to cover those upcoming months.. which surely could be a bit of rolling needs for liquidity.

but then surely some uncertainties if certain lines of cashflow are suddenly either drying up or becoming less valuable.. so for example if a person is cashing out $6,666 every month from his bitcoin, so long as the BTC price stays 25% above the 200-WMA, yet if the BTC price is running close to that line, then he may well know that his authorized withdrawal amounts will be going lower with increment that the BTC price drops, which surely if he actually needs $6,666 per month, then he should be able to draw the difference from somewhere else during the time that the BTC price might be low.. and surely some guys might have already drawn several months in advance, so that if the amount goes low, they already have drawn several months in advance so they may well not need to panic, even if their current withdrawal amount has gone below their anticipated budget amount... .

Guys also might already be accustomed of living 25% or more above their needs, so they may well be able to cut back on their expenses something like 25% per month without suffering in any kind of a meaningful and/or painful way that goes beyond just the inconveniences of having a wee bit less luxury during those cutting back periods (presuming that they might be temporary periods).

So the guy with 100 BTC in the beginning of 2021, might have felt that he was struggling to be careful during the 2022 and 2023 periods of BTC price difficulties, so maybe between early 2021 and now, he ended up spending 33% of his BTC stash, so he currently ONLY has 67 BTC, yet he still is doing much better now with 67 BTC as compared to how he was doing during the 2022 difficulty period, so part of his concern would be to make sure that he has enough and more than enough BTC when he enters into a FIRE status/practice.

I think here is the perfect answer to most of my questions, "so part of his concern would be to make sure that he has enough and more than enough BTC when he enters into a FIRE status/practice." Quoting you, this is the only way to get into a perfect FIRE era with BTC investment without much stress or hassel and also to have beat a good amount of ATH too so as not to be bothered by the bear market, thanks a lot for this wonderful insight

Surely there are guys who get overly anxious in terms of wanting to get out of work or perhaps even claiming that they had retired early, and I would imagine that it is quite painful if  these guys have to go back to work because they miscalculated... So, surely there should be some desires that we are going to want to calculate in terms of making sure that we have more than enough rather than less than enough.  A difficulty continues to be figuring out that line, since surely none of us should want to continue to keep working, perhaps even several years when we might have already reached a status of enough and/or more than enough.. yet how much of a cushion we need may well be the $million question that we truly have to answer for ourselves, and if we answer wrong, then no one is going to come and save us or feel sorry for us.  We have to live with the ramifications, and sometimes if we quit our job, we might not be able to get back a similar one, so we might want to make sure that we don't quit prior to making sure that we have calculated sufficiently correctly in regards to both enough and more than enough... perhaps easier said than done?

Surely, the main underlying ideas of how FIRE plays out within traditional assets are sufficiently outlined in OP, which largely is that when any of us might decide upon living off of our investments in a passive income kind of a way, our annual withdrawal rate should on average be less than the amount that the various investments are earning, so in that sense on average the investment portfolio is not getting smaller in terms of its dollar value, and if we have 25x our annual income/expenses, then withdrawing 4% per year remains enough to sustain ourselves at that same rate for an indefinite period of time, and presumptively in a perpetual basis.

I don't think this strategy makes sense. It is too conservative. And will force you to work more

We don't need to sustain ourselves in perpetual basis, because our life isn't perpetual.

For me, it makes sense, since not only does it seem to be able to sustain yourself on a perpetual basis without depleting your capital, you also likely need to account for the ongoing debasement of fiat, so that if you want to sustain your standard of living, then your income likely needs to increase with the debasement of fiat... Surely there are several ways to calculate, yet it seems to me to be a good foundation to presume perpetual sustainability rather than depletion of the capital, and sure of course, if we choose to purposefully deplete our principle faster than the sustainable rate, then that is a choice that we can make, yet I personally would prefer to start with the presumption of perpetual rather than a fixed number of years that it would last.

Surely, as you suggest, we could go into our FIRE status with a set number of years that we expect our funds to last, and that sounds like a personal choice rather than proclaiming that the one that is presumptively perpetual system does not make sense and asserting that the depleting (presumed number of years) system makes more sense.

You just need money to live at most 110 years.

Sure.. fair enough.  Let's say that we are 50 years old at the time that we go into FIRE status, then what is the material difference between having a system that is known to be 60 years versus one that is perpetual?  I would think that for all intents and purposes, even the one that is set up for 60 years is going to be set up as mostly the same as a perpetual one, except it will allow depleting in the final 10-20 years.

Are you want to to presume an older or a younger age in which a person is going into FIRE status?

I think in traditional systems, frequently there is a presumption of something around 30 years rather than 60 years, so we aren't going to be working until 80 and then labelling that FIRE?

I would imagine that many who are aiming towards some kind of FIRE implementation are wanting to enter into such status somewhere prior to turning 60 years if possible, and surely some are going to want to enter in their early 40s if they were able to do so... I personally think that the earlier we enter, the more likely that we are going to want to set up a system that is at least on the surface seeming to be perpetually sustainable, even though there may be some end period in which we purposefully might start to choose to deplete it at a faster rate than we had done in earlier years.

I tend to gather from your earlier posts that you are wanting to spend money sooner rather than later, and personally, I have difficulties understanding how that would be working in any kind of meaningful way that does not end up resulting in too much depletion of the capital (principle) too early.. but hey, maybe you have some system that you believe is going to work and hopefully you don't end up spending it all too soon merely because you think that it is possible to spend more on the front end, and I have my doubts about designing any system in that kind of way, especially if you are planning to live to 110.. which also seems a bit on the unrealistic side...even though it may not hurt to have a system in place, just in case, which seems to be arguing more the maintenance of a perpetual sustainable system rather than a front-depleting system.

Making correct assumptions about your long you will live will allow you to make higher withdrawals, allowing you to withdrawal more than your investment earnings annually.  Because you don't need to die with your portfolio intact.

I have my doubts about front-depleting working, but sure you can try it and find out whether it was a great idea or not.. .and yeah of course, we cannot really know in advance how long that we are going to live, which seems to be part of the justification to make sure we don't run out of capital too early.

I don't like the particular execution of this idea because a goal of 25x your living expenses will only last you for 25 years and then after that you'd have to go to work again. 

For sure, you don't understand the basic concept, which is that the reason that you build up your investment portfolio to 25 years is because it allows you to withdraw 4% per year and to sustain your current standard of living, and if your money is earning on average of 4% per year, then your 25% investment (savings) is going to support you at that current withdrawal rate on a perpetual basis.  You ar not depleting the principle, so long as the money earns at least 4%..

Sure another problem is that you may well need to increase your  withdrawal rate each year based on the debasement of fiat... so that may well mean either needing to save more than 25 years or depleting your principle, and then such investment amount is no longer perpetually sustainable unless you are on average earning more than 4% on it (which of course is reasonably plausible with bitcoin but may well not be with other ways of investing your capital).

But more importantly many people thing that the way to become rich enough to retire early is to penny-pinch as much as possible, but that makes you quite miserly and you won't be able to enjoy anything.

You don't have to penny pinch, but you do have to spend less than you earn so that any excess income would go into savings, and sure one of the ways to get there faster is to put more money into your investment/savings/retirement plan faster, so you can accomplish by spending less and/or earning more. It does not mean that you have to suffer, but sure, suffering could be a way to reach that FIRE status earlier.

From my point of view, it seems a bit presumptive to imagine that suffering has to happen in order to reach FIRE status early, even if suffering would likely expedite such process of getting to FIRE faster.  

The author of the channel "Retire at 35" likes to repeat that capital is earned not on the stock market, but in other places. The stock (cryptocurrency) market is a financial instrument for saving, not for making money.

Why not for both?

Of course, investing and saving are similar concepts, and many of us surely would prefer that any money we set aside is holding or appreciating in value, so part of the problem of holding value in cash is that it tends to depreciate and many times banks are not giving an interest rate that keeps up with the speed that the cash is depreciating.  Accordingly, many of us will try to put our money into places that we consider will both appreciate in value, but hopefully appreciate in value faster than the depletion of the value of cash.  Different places to put money have differing levels of volatility or even certainty in terms of the return and also sometimes risk of losing in value rather than gaining in value, relative to cash (or even relative to one another).  

Personally, I doubt that it is very good to be classifying crypto (or shitcoins) stocks and/or even bitcoin as if they were all similar kinds of things.. surely some places to put your money are better than others, and likely since we are on a bitcoin forum, it is probably better to be focusing on learning bitcoin first and to create an investment strategy related to bitcoin rather than fucking around with shitcoins or even stocks.. so perhaps if we develop some bitcoin building strategies, then we might want to diversify beyond bitcoin after learning and building bitcoin first.  It seems to me that if if you don't first figure out how to manage bitcoin and cash first, then you are likely just shooting in the dark when it comes to other investments, whether stocks or shitcoins.  Surely if you come to bitcoin and you already have other investments, perhaps even including a 401k or even owning a personal residence or even a business, then you would be starting your investment into bitcoin with that kind of a background framework in regards to how you would consider allocating (or including) bitcoin within your investment plans and/or strategies.

[tabas]

As much as I want to achieve this goal but I think I understand more people living with their careers until they can no longer go to work. It has become part of their routines to still keep on working but with minimal efforts and have a continuous cash flow. If I get into that point, I'd say that I am retired but will do some minimal task or efforts that will still generate me cash flow. But as with what people see that, it's not complete retirement but at least, that's stress free whether I work or not, I have some savings with my retirement fund.

[franky1]

I don't like the particular execution of this idea because a goal of 25x your living expenses will only last you for 25 years and then after that you'd have to go to work again. 

nope.. having 25x of lifestyle capital does not mean only 25 years of expenditure
if you are only removing 4% of the lump, but the lump grows by 8%-200% per year then the lump gets bigger not smaller(thus unlimited years)

But more importantly many people thing that the way to become rich enough to retire early is to penny-pinch as much as possible, but that makes you quite miserly and you won't be able to enjoy anything.

to be rich is to foolishly spend on lambos and glamorous stuff to show off..
to build wealth is to initially live frugally to start the investment if your income is low.. and then live lavishly once your 4% outgoings from wealth is less than growth, but where the 4% allows you to live a good lavish life of exploration and experiences

the difference between being wealthy vs rich is that:
being rich means you spend your capital on show-off stuff, such as owning 7 lambo's even though you are just one person (one person cant drive 7 cars at same time so unneeded spend)

being wealthy is where your capital increases even when you are lavishly spending on wise purchases that you do need and want. emphasis on the wise
such as one good performance car that does what its suppose to and is reliable

[JayJuanGee]

As much as I want to achieve this goal but I think I understand more people living with their careers until they can no longer go to work. It has become part of their routines to still keep on working but with minimal efforts and have a continuous cash flow. If I get into that point, I'd say that I am retired but will do some minimal task or efforts that will still generate me cash flow. But as with what people see that, it's not complete retirement but at least, that's stress free whether I work or not, I have some savings with my retirement fund.

Of course, you don't necessarily need to reach full FIRE status in order to enjoy the benefits of having had built up enough of a nest egg so that you have some options and yeah, you might be able to reduce the quantity of your hours, or you might be able to reduce the kinds of physically demanding kinds of jobs that you do, since your body might  not be as capable of doing such physically taxing jobs including also being able to adequately recover from physically taxing kinds of work.  Some people are able to continue doing physically taxing work, yet most people suffer decline in strength, stamina and even their recovery times or their proneness to injury or getting sick or not recovering from their ailments as quickly and easily.

Having options continues to be a plus, even if you are not quite able to go into full FIRE status at the age that you would like to do so.

My standard of living has been pretty good in the past 7 years or so, and it seems to me that I was hunkering down investing into bitcoin for my first 4-ish years between late 2013 and late/2016 to early 2017, but then even though I was not really cashing out of my BTC, I was still able to improve my standard of living in 2017 and thereafter based on anticipations of what I had already established. .and surely gaining confidence that what I had done was enough.. even though I even started to have such confidences in early 2016.. when BTC started its recovery after spending so much time in decline in 2014 and time being stagnant in its price in 2015..

so if any of us stack bitcoin early, we might start to gain a lot of confidence in how our BTC is helping us to live better even if we still might not be completely living off of it, but perhaps merely allowing the bitcoin to ride or perhaps just allowing the bitcoin to supplement our income in minor ways as it continues to grow to a place in which it might be able to do more of the heavy lifting in regards to providing income to us... Perhaps? perhaps?  Each of us handle our bitcoin investment and allow for its growth in differing ways that hopefully does not contribute towards our cashing out too much of it too soon.

I don't like the particular execution of this idea because a goal of 25x your living expenses will only last you for 25 years and then after that you'd have to go to work again. 

nope.. having 25x of lifestyle capital does not mean only 25 years of expenditure
if you are only removing 4% of the lump, but the lump grows by 8%-200% per year then the lump gets bigger not smaller(thus unlimited years)

But more importantly many people thing that the way to become rich enough to retire early is to penny-pinch as much as possible, but that makes you quite miserly and you won't be able to enjoy anything.

to be rich is to foolishly spend on lambos and glamorous stuff to show off..
to build wealth is to initially live frugally to start the investment if your income is low.. and then live lavishly once your 4% outgoings from wealth is less than growth, but where the 4% allows you to live a good lavish life of exploration and experiences

the difference between being wealthy vs rich is that:
being rich means you spend your capital on show-off stuff, such as owning 7 lambo's even though you are just one person (one person cant drive 7 cars at same time so unneeded spend)
being wealthy is where your capital increases even when you are lavishly spending on wise purchases that you do need and want. emphasis on the wise
such as one good performance car that does what its suppose to and is reliable

I personally believe that we can live quite improved lives with BTC as our wealth, and it may well be quite likely that the BTC value will grow way beyond our spending pace, so if the BTC is allowed to compound in value a few more times, we may well end up with way more wealth than we expected, which may well allow us to go from spending wealthy and wise and into higher levels of extravagance.

It is like going from entry-level fuck you status (FIRE status), end then getting to a point that is multiples higher than the entry-level status, and then perhaps being 10s or even 100x higher than the entry-level fuck you status at a kind of filthy rich status, which some of those higher levels  can come without necessarily having to work hard at it, but just living within one's means and allowing the value to continue to compound, which so far in bitcoin's history, it has compounded many, many times...

[tabas]

As much as I want to achieve this goal but I think I understand more people living with their careers until they can no longer go to work. It has become part of their routines to still keep on working but with minimal efforts and have a continuous cash flow. If I get into that point, I'd say that I am retired but will do some minimal task or efforts that will still generate me cash flow. But as with what people see that, it's not complete retirement but at least, that's stress free whether I work or not, I have some savings with my retirement fund.

Of course, you don't necessarily need to reach full FIRE status in order to enjoy the benefits of having had built up enough of a nest egg so that you have some options and yeah, you might be able to reduce the quantity of your hours, or you might be able to reduce the kinds of physically demanding kinds of jobs that you do, since your body might  not be as capable of doing such physically taxing jobs including also being able to adequately recover from physically taxing kinds of work.  Some people are able to continue doing physically taxing work, yet most people suffer decline in strength, stamina and even their recovery times or their proneness to injury or getting sick or not recovering from their ailments as quickly and easily.

Having options continues to be a plus, even if you are not quite able to go into full FIRE status at the age that you would like to do so.

My standard of living has been pretty good in the past 7 years or so, and it seems to me that I was hunkering down investing into bitcoin for my first 4-ish years between late 2013 and late/2016 to early 2017, but then even though I was not really cashing out of my BTC, I was still able to improve my standard of living in 2017 and thereafter based on anticipations of what I had already established. .and surely gaining confidence that what I had done was enough.. even though I even started to have such confidences in early 2016.. when BTC started its recovery after spending so much time in decline in 2014 and time being stagnant in its price in 2015..

I've realized that we're all going to that point that our body will tax us with the too work that we've got during our younger days and that's why we also have to plan whether full FIRE or semi, as long as we live comfortably and able to sustain our lifestyle and frugal living. That is impressive. You have not cashing a lot of your BTC and you're able to live comfortably and confidently. I bet that you have some other sources aside from your paper profits in Bitcoin investing and the big thing here is you're living within or even below your means and means comfort to you. I wish that more people are going to do the same as you, despite that have probable huge holdings and seeing $$$ from time to time, not too hungry in taking them all and have a longer game plan.

so if any of us stack bitcoin early, we might start to gain a lot of confidence in how our BTC is helping us to live better even if we still might not be completely living off of it, but perhaps merely allowing the bitcoin to ride or perhaps just allowing the bitcoin to supplement our income in minor ways as it continues to grow to a place in which it might be able to do more of the heavy lifting in regards to providing income to us... Perhaps? perhaps?  Each of us handle our bitcoin investment and allow for its growth in differing ways that hopefully does not contribute towards our cashing out too much of it too soon.

I am a testament to this and will continue to do so in keeping a stack of Bitcoin. I've proved it to myself that there's the biggest part in my life that BTC did it all and I reckon this advise and hopefully others will be wise on doing their investments, I'm not saying that I am wise but sure JJG is. 

[dunfida]

As much as I want to achieve this goal but I think I understand more people living with their careers until they can no longer go to work. It has become part of their routines to still keep on working but with minimal efforts and have a continuous cash flow. If I get into that point, I'd say that I am retired but will do some minimal task or efforts that will still generate me cash flow. But as with what people see that, it's not complete retirement but at least, that's stress free whether I work or not, I have some savings with my retirement fund.

Definitely i do see up those kind of people on which even if they do have that other income sources or simply you can really be able to tell that they can survive without having their day job but still they have decided to have some work and never make out that retirement on which we can be able to say that this is indeed someones personal choice whether they will really be that pursuing out their careers for some personal reason on which there's nothing we can do about it since we dont really know their condition or situation behind those actions. The only thing that makes you find out that dayjob sucks is that because of that work stress and other correlated aspect on which this is where you dont really like up to experience.

On the moment or time that you are already on a job position on which you are already that having no stress at all or the workload and responsibility isnt that much then you wont really be trying out to get rid and retire with that job too early but rather you will be considering on having the action on doing it until your body will really be not able to to do or simply on the moment that you do get old and thats someones on basing into such decision on which its not bad either. We are all free on what are the things that we do really wanted to do and it is really that up to ours in accordance into our choices and preferences.

[franky1]

I personally believe that we can live quite improved lives with BTC as our wealth, and it may well be quite likely that the BTC value will grow way beyond our spending pace, so if the BTC is allowed to compound in value a few more times, we may well end up with way more wealth than we expected, which may well allow us to go from spending wealthy and wise and into higher levels of extravagance.

It is like going from entry-level fuck you status (FIRE status), end then getting to a point that is multiples higher than the entry-level status, and then perhaps being 10s or even 100x higher than the entry-level fuck you status at a kind of filthy rich status, which some of those higher levels  can come without necessarily having to work hard at it, but just living within one's means and allowing the value to continue to compound, which so far in bitcoin's history, it has compounded many, many times...

bitcoin will compound at far better rate than any bank account interest rate or portfolio manage stock options.. its just picking the target amount where the compounding is growing more then the withdrawal, to decide whats the best number to find sustainable living amount to then retire and enjoy it

can i just offer some advice.. the whole 'fuck you status' of just extravagance/burning money 'cos i can' gets boring quick.. dont plan on a wasteful spending as it wont make you happy long term
it only lasts as long as driving a car out the showroom and on the way home seeing someone with a car thats better than yours (less than a couple hours)
where your then already thinking 'maybe i should have bought that one instead'
dont get into that consumerism cycle or you'll just ends up spending it all just to act like the top man

i actually enjoy knowing i can buy any car, any house.. but just not needing to.
the peace of mind of not having to worry about money is the essence of F.I.R.E, its not about buying crazy things 'because i can'
its not about forced frugality either

people think they can only retire in 2 extreme circumstances:
a. super bill gate/musk rich with the need to buy 10 mansions and 7 lambo's
b. enough to live on bread&beans, to stay home watching tv repeats

but f.ir.e is about enjoying financial freedom of not worried about money

 in short, once you reach F.I.R.E status. your mindset will change about whats important to you. rich/extravagance gets boring.. you start to want to have and explore experiences, not shiny objects. you live comfortably worry free