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Question: Should the SMF BitcoinTalk forum software be open sourced?
Yes - 3 (17.6%)
No - 14 (82.4%)
Total Voters: 17

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Author Topic: After the epochtalk failure, should BitcoinTalk be open sourced as compensation?  (Read 439 times)
BenCodie (OP)
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April 17, 2025, 10:49:35 AM
Last edit: April 17, 2025, 12:04:10 PM by BenCodie
 #1

After the termation of the Epochtalk project which took over 3,000 BTC worth of donations from the forum community to build a new forum software and since the epochtalk project was open source, doesn't it only make sense that fair compensation for the community for the administration not being able to complete the new forum software (and losing a big portion of donated BTC), is to open source the one being used right now? The software that has been built upon and customized and yet ironically, is closed source?

I've started a vote despite the logic being nothing short of sound. I hope that the rational side of the community and theymos can appreciate this as a fair and sound resolution, as actual compensation for the administration completely failing its community and donators.

In saying that, I would not expect theymos to even speak on the matter since theymos has completely ignored a community vote that received over 95% approval by 26 posters in a community vote and a poll that received over 68 votes at over 91% approval to add a cybersecurity and privacy board in the past. A noble cause which ultimately served to protect Bitcoin users, members of this forum and the public generally...and ignored key details such as a post clarifying the price in which the donated BTC was received at the time epochtalk was announced as a failed project. Being proven wrong here would restore some faith in the integrity of theymos/forum administration.

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April 17, 2025, 11:04:13 AM
 #2

I did not know Bitcointalk is close score. I think it should be open source but not because of Epochtalk. This forum has been existing since over 15 years ago and we are good with how it is.

I am not saying Bitcointalk should not be open source but it should not be because of Epochtalk. We are even happy with how the forum is like this. Continuous modification of this forum as it is now is better.

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BenCodie (OP)
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April 17, 2025, 11:43:47 AM
Last edit: April 17, 2025, 12:01:02 PM by BenCodie
 #3

I did not know Bitcointalk is close score.

Yes. Bitcointalk is closed source. The code is not openly available to anyone.

This forum has been existing since over 15 years ago and we are good with how it is.
We are even happy with how the forum is like this. Continuous modification of this forum as it is now is better.

Open sourcing the forum will not change anything about it other than making the code available to the public.

I think it should be open source but not because of Epochtalk.

This response makes no sense to me, other than a reason to vote no (which seemingly you had) - So, I reset the poll to say "Should the SMF BitcoinTalk forum software be open sourced?" as I agree, it should be open soure (given this is Bitcoin's nature), and epochtalk is simply a very strong additional reason to vote yes.

I am not saying Bitcointalk should not be open source but it should not be because of Epochtalk.

Could you explain this? Theymos took donations for Epochtalk, to build a new forum software. The project failed and did not deliver, but meanwhile this forum software had been developed extensively. Why would open sourcing it as compensation for failing epochtalk and losing donated BTC not be appropriate?

The community, donators and the public were promised a next generation forum software. That next generation software was going to be open source. This forum software is another generation of the traditional SMF, yet it is not open source. Isn't open sourcing it the least theymos can do after spending over 3,000 BTC of donations on what turned out to be nothing after 10 years, while this forum developed?

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April 17, 2025, 12:32:08 PM
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 #4

BitcoinTalk is using a modified version of SMF, which is open-source. Theymos (and others, at his direction) have made modifications to the code, mostly that are specific to the forum, the merit system for example. I suspect that theymos is weary of releasing the full source code of the forum out of fear that security issues will be found, and exploited (that might otherwise not be found).
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April 17, 2025, 12:46:16 PM
Merited by nutildah (2), vapourminer (1), hugeblack (1)
 #5

If you toggle over to the "MORE" section of the forum, you will see that there is a huge bounty on some major hacks that can be done against the forum. Releasing the source code will obviously make it easy to crack since all you would need to do is find bugs which always exist in any system.

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April 17, 2025, 01:09:44 PM
 #6

1. Open source code
2. Decentralised forum
If you are asking for 1, it means you are also asking for 2.
If you are a trusted developer and you are a member of this forum, I think theymos will give you access to contribute to the forum just like the likes of PowerGlove does.

R


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April 17, 2025, 01:34:50 PM
 #7

The forum doesn't need to be open source. There's no secret sauce that needs to be explained for the sake of anybody's well-being; financial or otherwise. There are only a lot of customizations and modifications made in the name of security. Just because the forum gathered a bunch of funds for development of a new forum, it doesn't mean this one has to be open source.

If you toggle over to the "MORE" section of the forum, you will see that there is a huge bounty on some major hacks that can be done against the forum. Releasing the source code will obviously make it easy to crack since all you would need to do is find bugs which always exist in any system.

This is actually pretty cool and for as long as I've been here I never clicked on that button before, lol.

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April 17, 2025, 01:43:33 PM
Merited by stwenhao (1)
 #8

1. Open source code
2. Decentralised forum
If you are asking for 1, it means you are also asking for 2.
If you are a trusted developer and you are a member of this forum, I think theymos will give you access to contribute to the forum just like the likes of PowerGlove does.
Not really... Theymos doesn't need to give you full access to the forum source code before you can create a tool or data extension like BPIP, ninjastic space and others. Theymos giving out merit data is way different from him giving you a copy of the merit structure's  base code. The forum code already has a skeleton (SMF) and it's public enough.

The forum doesn't need to be open source. There's no secret sauce that needs to be explained for the sake of anybody's well-being; financial or otherwise. There are only a lot of customizations and modifications made in the name of security. Just because the forum gathered a bunch of funds for development of a new forum, it doesn't mean this one has to be open source.
I wonder what would happen if every single secret behind bitcoin's creation was made public.

Quote
This is actually pretty cool and for as long as I've been here I never clicked on that button before, lol.
May sound crazy but I think I spend more time surfing than posting...

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April 17, 2025, 02:17:24 PM
 #9

I've started a vote despite the logic being nothing short of sound. I hope that the rational side of the community and theymos can appreciate this as a fair and sound resolution, as actual compensation for the administration completely failing its community and donators.
How does making the forum software open source correlate to it being compensation for forum members because theymos spent $5.9 million over 11 years on the Epochtalk project before abandoning it?

This is actually pretty cool and for as long as I've been here I never clicked on that button before, lol.
It has been ages since I last clicked it. After a quick look at the names in the donor list, there is one that stands out for me considering the political angle. MemoryDealers (in other words Roger Ver) was in the list of 50 BTC donors. Some of those donations must have been for more than 50 BTC and many must have been under 10 BTC therefore would not have made the list.

t would be interesting to know specifically how much was donated by each donor that contributed to the total 3116 BTC donations received.

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April 17, 2025, 02:44:54 PM
Merited by nutildah (1), ABCbits (1)
 #10

The forum's core code is open source, but many modifications have been made. You can find some of its code in open source.

I think what we should learn from the failure of the Epochtalk project is to utilize the remaining funds and establish an advisory board (or pay to a specialized company) before disbursing any more. Unfortunately, so far, nothing has changed regarding how the donated funds are spent or made more transparent.

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April 18, 2025, 03:18:46 AM
 #11

Theymos sent me a PM as decade ago stating he was "meticulously" documenting his personal vs forum funds.     If 3,000btc of donated funds earmarked for bitcoin development were spent on a company created and dissolved just to take advantage of tax loopholes, Theymos better have those records.   We really could use that quarter billion $ to add an index on a column to fight scammers.  

I'm actually going to start another thread about a legal question I have.   How should lawyers be treating the price of bitcoin when it comes to scams over a $100k price swing?  lol

Hey Deepseek!  Is an administrator of donated funds required to detail where he spent it?

Quote
The requirement for an administrator of donated funds to disclose spending details depends on several factors, including the **jurisdiction**, the **type of organization**, the **terms agreed with donors**, and the **legal or contractual obligations** involved. Here’s a breakdown:

---

### 1. **Legal Requirements**  
   - **Registered Charities/Nonprofits**:  
     In most countries, registered nonprofits or charities are legally required to publicly disclose financial records (e.g., IRS Form 990 in the U.S., annual reports in the EU). Donors and the public can typically access these records to see how funds are used.  
   - **Fraud or Misuse Laws**:  
     Misusing donated funds (e.g., embezzlement) is illegal everywhere. Administrators could face criminal charges if they cannot account for expenditures.  

---

### 2. **Donor Agreements**  
   - **Restricted Gifts**:  
     If donors specify how funds must be used (e.g., "for disaster relief only"), administrators are legally obligated to honor those terms. Failure to do so could lead to lawsuits.  
   - **General Donations**:  
     For unrestricted donations, administrators have more flexibility, but ethical obligations to use funds responsibly still apply.  

---

### 3. **Ethical and Reputational Obligations**  
   Even if not legally required, transparency builds trust. Donors often expect:  
   - **Public Reporting**: Summaries of how funds were allocated (e.g., "80% to program expenses, 15% to administrative costs").  
   - **Direct Accountability**: For crowdfunding or informal projects, donors may demand receipts, invoices, or proof of impact.  

---

### 4. **Informal Arrangements**  
   If funds are collected informally (e.g., a community fundraiser or personal GoFundMe), there may be no legal obligation to disclose expenses. However:  
   - **Trust**: Refusing to share details risks accusations of fraud or misuse.  
   - **Platform Rules**: Platforms like GoFundMe may require proof of fund usage in case of disputes.  

---

### **Key Takeaways**  
- **Legally Required**: For registered organizations or restricted donations.  
- **Ethically Expected**: Even in informal setups, transparency is critical to maintain credibility.  
- **Consequences of Non-Disclosure**: Legal action (if laws/contracts are violated) or reputational harm.  

If you’re administering funds, consult a legal expert to ensure compliance with local laws and donor agreements. Always document expenses and communicate openly with donors.

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April 18, 2025, 05:13:06 AM
 #12

Quote
I wonder what would happen if every single secret behind bitcoin's creation was made public.
You don't know, what you are asking for. The whole cryptography works mainly because we don't know everything. For example: when you have some hash function, like SHA-256, then you know, how the message is hashed, but you don't know, how to break it. If you would have the full knowledge about the system, then it would also include knowing all weaknesses, and being able to break everything.

Because in general, things work like that: you have some mathematical problem, where the solution is unknown. Nobody knows, how to solve ECDLP. Nobody knows, how to break SHA-256, and simplify it, to generate any preimages in O(1), with just a CPU. And systems are built, based on what we don't know, by assuming, that the system is safe as long, as nobody knows, how to break it.

Proof of Work puzzle in mainnet and testnet4.
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April 18, 2025, 06:18:21 AM
Merited by stwenhao (1)
 #13

Quote
I wonder what would happen if every single secret behind bitcoin's creation was made public.
You don't know, what you are asking for. The whole cryptography works mainly because we don't know everything. For example: when you have some hash function, like SHA-256, then you know, how the message is hashed, but you don't know, how to break it. If you would have the full knowledge about the system, then it would also include knowing all weaknesses, and being able to break everything.

We do know everything about the bitcoin client and protocol.  I think that quote was referring to how and why bitcoin was created, rather than the technical code.


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April 18, 2025, 07:15:56 AM
 #14

I voted no because I perceive this as a failure of the development team to deliver the new forum software completely in a timely manner, not a failure of the software itself, which is pretty darn good if you ask me.

Probably someone who wants to make a mirror of the forum will use this as a base and *maybe* get a grant from the forum to continue maintaining it.

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April 18, 2025, 08:10:03 AM
Last edit: April 18, 2025, 08:55:17 AM by nutildah
Merited by stwenhao (1)
 #15

I wonder what would happen if every single secret behind bitcoin's creation was made public.

Well, this would probably also infer the thorough doxing of satoshi, but the thing is Bitcoin is open source and every developer commit since Aug 2009 can be found & scrutinized on GitHub (as was alluded to by Vod and hugeblack). And of course the original source code was also open source.

I also appreciate this perspective:

You don't know, what you are asking for. The whole cryptography works mainly because we don't know everything.

This is also very true, lol.

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April 18, 2025, 08:49:00 AM
Merited by stwenhao (1)
 #16

If we're going to make something open-source, IMO it should be epochtalk. Currently epochtalk is only "source code available". These epochtalk repository share it's source code, but doesn't include any open source license.
https://github.com/epochtalk/epochtalk-vue
https://github.com/epochtalk/epochtalk_server

The forum doesn't need to be open source. There's no secret sauce that needs to be explained for the sake of anybody's well-being; financial or otherwise. There are only a lot of customizations and modifications made in the name of security. Just because the forum gathered a bunch of funds for development of a new forum, it doesn't mean this one has to be open source.
I wonder what would happen if every single secret behind bitcoin's creation was made public.

What exactly you're talking about? Bitcoin Core (most popular Bitcoin full node implementation software) is open-source.

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April 18, 2025, 09:17:16 AM
 #17

According to the report made by theymos post the 2013 hack, SMF 1.x prohibits the publishing of the source code. So it looks like this is not going to be an option. (in addition to the reasons I mentioned previously)
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April 18, 2025, 10:44:44 AM
Merited by vapourminer (1)
 #18

Quote
We do know everything about the bitcoin client and protocol.
1. We don't know the private key to the Genesis Block.
2. We don't know, how x-value of half of the secp256k1 generator was picked.
3. We don't know, why some messages are in Big Endian, and others are in Little Endian (which is why you can skip some last rounds in SHA-256 computations, when checking if block hash has at least 32/64 leading zero bits).

And there are many more things we don't know.

Quote
I think that quote was referring to how and why bitcoin was created, rather than the technical code.
If you wonder "why", then the message in the Genesis Block is pretty clear. We had "second bailout", which was literally the input, which triggered making Bitcoin. And when it comes to "how", then note, that Proof of Work in hashcash just made the coins hard to get, and collecting every transaction by every P2P client is all you need, to mathematically solve the double spending problem.

And by extending that idea, you can easily solve the decentralized mining problem, if every P2P client will collect all blocks, produced by all miners. But we don't have enough resources, to really use that kind of model in practice, and make things tick with such N^2 complexity.

Quote
this would probably also infer the thorough doxing of satoshi
If everything would be revealed in a single shot, then maybe. But if things will be broken gradually, then it will hide him instead, by making it literally impossible for anyone to cryptographically prove, that a given person is Satoshi. If the key from the Genesis Block will be compromised, if the PGP key will be compromised, and if all other ways of sending "I am Satoshi" signal will be broken, then nobody would ever be able to reveal his identity, because all possible proofs will no longer be accepted by anyone.

Quote
What exactly you're talking about?
It is all about magic numbers. You can read the source code, which is responsible for computing SHA-256 hashes. But you don't know, why some magic numbers were picked the way they are. You can find some "nothing up my sleeve" numbers, for example when you try to square or cube some constants, but you don't know, why a given number of rotations was picked, why we have 64 rounds, why w-values can go back to their original values after certain number of rounds, and so on. There are many things we know, but there are also many things we don't know, and some of them are responsible for making things safe to use, as long as nobody knows it.

For example: https://malicioussha1.github.io/

If you change k-values into something unsafe, then your version of a given hash function is safe for users, but easy to break for the creator. And if there exist some reason, why k-values are square and cube roots, and you can use that property to mount a successful attack, then creators could potentially insert a backdoor, which would work only for them.

And the same is true for secp256k1: as long as computing n-value is fast, but breaking a private key is slow, then it works. But if there is any algorithm, which could take two public keys, and produce a distance between them, by making similar steps, as you have to make, when you compute n-value in Schoof-Elkies-Atkin algorithm, then it would be unsafe. And knowing "everything" would mean also knowing such shortcuts, which would make that kind of cryptography unsafe.

Because when we know everything about a given mathematical problem, then that system is fully broken, and we try to discover a new problem. And then, if it is unsolved for a long time, then humans can build a new system, which is safe, as long as a given math problem is unsolved. And the cryptography in practical use is just made out of unsolved math problems, there is nothing else than that.

Proof of Work puzzle in mainnet and testnet4.
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April 18, 2025, 11:04:12 AM
 #19

I have not voted in the poll but keeping my personal preference aside, there is no correlation between the failure to create a suitable forum at a cost of $5.9 million over 11 years and making the current forum software (with the modifications) open source as a means of compensation. I have no idea why the OP would have created this thread under that premise.

I voted no because I perceive this as a failure of the development team to deliver the new forum software completely in a timely manner, not a failure of the software itself, which is pretty darn good if you ask me.

Probably someone who wants to make a mirror of the forum will use this as a base and *maybe* get a grant from the forum to continue maintaining it.

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April 18, 2025, 11:45:39 AM
 #20

I do feel that the 3000 Bitcoin sounds a lot of money right now or when you are thinking about it considering the last a few years of data. What was the actual value of those 3000 Bitcoin when theymos was spending it?

Looks like extortionist Vod is trying to get something out of this situation.

Should the SMF BitcoinTalk forum software be open sourced
The core engine is already open source. The updates those were made over the years by theymos using his own coding skills, might not have a major segment to share.

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