12 or 24 word seed phrase, which and why?

[Hatchy]

Have you ever wondered why we have the 12 and 24 seed phrase words?
When setting up a new Bitcoin wallet, one of the first things you usually will come across encounter is the option to generate a 12 or 24 word seed phrase. For new crypto users or so many of us, we just simply go with the 12 word seed as we are more familiar with that. but the length of your seed phrase in a way may impacts the security of your Bitcoins.

your seed phrase is the master key to your Bitcoin. It's a human readable backup of your private keys. These seed phrases are generated from a certain amount of entropy, which actually is a measure of randomness. The higher the entropy the more unpredictable and secure your seed phrase is.  How then does this relate to the 12 or 24 seed word.


The 12 Word Seed Phrase seed phrase is derived from a sequence of 128 random bits. With 2¹²⁸ possible combinations your wallet has a high level of security against any form of brute force attacks.  

24 Word Seed Phrase doubles the initial randomness to 256 bits, resulting in 2²⁵⁶ possible combinations. This number is mind-bogglingly larger than the possibilities with a 12-word seed.

Does this then mean that the 24word seed phrase is much better and secured than the 12 word seed phrase?

Well you should know that A seed phrase can be 128 bits, 256 bits. but it won't provide security beyond 128 bits. a 24 word seed phrase offers a higher theoretical level of security in terms of the sheer number of possible combinations, the practical security against brute force attacks is already so high with a 12 word seed phrase that the added length provides just little increase in protection against any specific type of attack. 12word seed phrase generated by a reputable wallet provides excellent security.  

As regards storing, most people finds it a bit difficult storing the 24 seed word properly, which is more reason they just go with that of the 12 words. Some might decide to split the 24 words into half, but that's actually a bad choice. you literally can loss access to your funds if you end up mixing up these words or misplace any one of them.

[Mpamaegbu]

I don use 12 seed phrase, and I don also use 24 seed phrase. If I get option today of either using 12 or 24 seeds, I go go for 12. I nor dey like long story. I like make things dey simple and sharp for me. In d past wen we started dis journey for dis industry, na 12 seeds dey dat time. I neva suffer any hack bc of sey I use 12 seeds and I believe sey na bc I dey careful of d apps wey I used. Persin supposed shine im eyes wen picking apps wey dem wan use store dem stuff. Even if you use 24 seeds own but you dey careless or you go use closed source wallet apps, d length of wetin you get as seedphrase nor matta anything.

[Mia Chloe]

~snip

It's been a long while since I saw your technical posts on Naija board seems you took a break... Anyways nice way to return op. Now concerning your post, the more the words the more the possibilities of outcomes for hashing and it also applies for 10 words and random custom words  too. This is partly my the reason why even though we have a word list you still can't brute force a seed technically speaking. Entropy matters a lot that's why you need to make use of a good software wallet to generate your seeds.

24 Word Seed Phrase doubles the initial randomness to 256 bits, resulting in 2²⁵⁶ possible combinations.

As for this, mathematically it's not actually a double, rather it's a square of the entropy. 2²⁵⁶ = (2¹²⁸)² .
FUN FACT: ELECTRUM seeds are more secure than BIP39 seeds which most wallets like (blue wallet, mycelium, trust wallet and many others use.

[Obim34]

Curious, @Hatchy has there been an instance where a 12 words seed phrase has been guessed following a successful entry into a wallet with Bitcoin or any crypto in it?

Informations say there are above 1 Million English words known, out of them all how easy will it be to guess 12 or 24 words out of it in order to get access into someone's wallet? For this reason using 12 or 24 may not give maximum security when seed phrases are not handled carefully.

[Lida93]

I don use 12 seed phrase, and I don also use 24 seed phrase. If I get option today of either using 12 or 24 seeds, I go go for 12. I nor dey like long story. I like make things dey simple and sharp for me. In d past wen we started dis journey for dis industry, na 12 seeds dey dat time. I neva suffer any hack bc of sey I use 12 seeds and I believe sey na bc I dey careful of d apps wey I used. Persin supposed shine im eyes wen picking apps wey dem wan use store dem stuff. Even if you use 24 seeds own but you dey careless or you go use closed source wallet apps, d length of wetin you get as seedphrase nor matta anything.

Well my guy you fit dey right say the length no matter anything but you don consider am why the developers of this seed phrase wallets decided to increase the numbers of the seed phrase from 12 to 24? If truly it doesn't add any form of extra layer of security to the wallet against any form of brute force then the developers for no reason am to go extra mile in creating 24 phrases after 12 and then making it an option for convenience as the user feel about him wallet security.

Just as Hatchy tok am,  the reason why people like you go choose the 12 seed phrase na because Una dey find am difficult to the go about saving 24 when you can save 12 and relax  But, at the end, it still boils down to the individual to safe keep him seed phrase from third party not to access it weda 12 or 24 phrases.

[BIT-BENDER]

I don use 12 seed phrase, and I don also use 24 seed phrase. If I get option today of either using 12 or 24 seeds, I go go for 12. I nor dey like long story. I like make things dey simple and sharp for me. In d past wen we started dis journey for dis industry, na 12 seeds dey dat time. I neva suffer any hack bc of sey I use 12 seeds and I believe sey na bc I dey careful of d apps wey I used. Persin supposed shine im eyes wen picking apps wey dem wan use store dem stuff. Even if you use 24 seeds own but you dey careless or you go use closed source wallet apps, d length of wetin you get as seedphrase nor matta anything.

Regardless of is the seed phrase dey 24 or the thing dey 12 I no think say e make much difference. The only time e go make or you fit dey talk about long story Na if you have plans to memorise your seed phrase by the words.
If you aren't trying to keep it in your head then all you need to do is secure your seed phrase because the length of the words won't help you if your seed phrase get compromised.

[Hatchy]

Even if you use 24 seeds own but you dey careless or you go use closed source wallet apps, d length of wetin you get as seedphrase nor matta anything.

The fact is that, be it 12 or 24 seed words, if you generate them using a complicated wallet software, you funds will likely be compromised. That's why it's advised to use only standard wallet to generate your keys and even more advisible to do generate them offline.

If truly it doesn't add any form of extra layer of security to the wallet against any form of brute force then the developers for no reason am to go extra mile in creating 24 phrases after 12 and then making it an option for convenience as the user feel about him wallet security.

Actually there is just very little form of security that the extra word, even your passphrase or password adds. They are meant to help avoid human errors. We make alot of these errors while trying to protect our funds.
Read what @ o_e_l_e_o, said about this.

 

Curious, @Hatchy has there been an instance where a 12 words seed phrase has been guessed following a successful entry into a wallet with Bitcoin or any crypto in it?

Informations say there are above 1 Million English words known, out of them all how easy will it be to guess 12 or 24 words out of it in order to get access into someone's wallet? For this reason using 12 or 24 may not give maximum security when seed phrases are not handled carefully.

There hasn't been any technology created that would be able to brute force the 128bits. The speculation with quantum computers has been a thing of discussion these days and some say it would be a threat to bitcoin security. But honestly it would take even more couple of decades before any of such computers would run successfully as they require alot of power in other to work at the speed of light.

24 Word Seed Phrase doubles the initial randomness to 256 bits, resulting in 2²⁵⁶ possible combinations.

As for this, mathematically it's not actually a double, rather it's a square of the entropy. 2²⁵⁶ = (2¹²⁸)² .

Well true though if we solve using indices
(2¹²⁸)² would be equivalent to 2¹²⁸ × 2¹²⁸= 2^{(128 + 128)} = 2²⁵⁶. I might be rusty solving this though.

[Samlucky O]

Op I love the way you carry analys this stuff, although no be every body head go fit carry this thing but I believe many fo learn from am including me.

As regards storing, most people finds it a bit difficult storing the 24 seed word properly, which is more reason they just go with that of the 12 words.

I don't even think it's because they find it difficult storing the 24 seed word properly that made them chose the12 seed word. I think majority of the hot wallet comes with the 12 word seed like the metamask, trustwallet, electron wallet and many more. This dex wallet often comes with 12 seed word and it is simple and convenient and also popular compeard to the 24 seed word that's why they go for it.

Some might decide to split the 24 words into half, but that's actually a bad choice. you literally can loss access to your funds if you end up mixing up these words or misplace any one of them.

I don't even think anyone in his right sense will try to copy only 12 inside the 24 word knowing true well that this code are programed in a way that each must come together to unlock the wallet. So taken half is like knowing your password is 1234 and you are pressing only 12 and expecting it to unlock. The only dex wallet I have 24 seed phrase is my pi coin wallet. If not I am more familiar with the 12 seed.

[I_Anime]

I don use 12 seed phrase, and I don also use 24 seed phrase. If I get option today of either using 12 or 24 seeds, I go go for 12. I nor dey like long story. I like make things dey simple and sharp for me. In d past wen we started dis journey for dis industry, na 12 seeds dey dat time. I neva suffer any hack bc of sey I use 12 seeds and I believe sey na bc I dey careful of d apps wey I used. Persin supposed shine im eyes wen picking apps wey dem wan use store dem stuff. Even if you use 24 seeds own but you dey careless or you go use closed source wallet apps, d length of wetin you get as seedphrase nor matta anything.

Nah truth sha but e nor still change the fact shey nah 24 seed phrase still strong pass , most of those our mobile device wallet ( those our hot wallet like , Metamask , phantom, and trust wallet) nah usually 12 words , both actually good sha like me nor too mind anyone the wallet give me I Dey accept nah for me to play my role to keep it safe because rather nah 12 or 24 if you nor keep it secure am well losses of funds is inevitable.

Hardware wallet are usually 24 phase , and they are highly secured not just because they have 24 seed phrases they are offline wallet they are not connected to the internet so it will be hard for hacker to compromise them , but they are usually not safe from external attacks like water , fire e.t.c.

[Salahmu]

The 12 words is also the one I'm very okay with because since I have started using it my account has not been on any danger, though as the number increases possibly that's applicable to the increase in security, after this 24 seed phrase will become as common as the 12 we might still be seeing another one and since the first was multiply into two they would also multiply the 24 into two, the 12 is not a bad choice because if not exposed nobody can get or quess all the 12 phrase and it opens for them and besides aside from that the visibility of the 24 are for only few places.

[Mpamaegbu]

~snipped~

Well my guy you fit dey right say the length no matter anything but you don consider am why the developers of this seed phrase wallets decided to increase the numbers of the seed phrase from 12 to 24? If truly it doesn't add any form of extra layer of security to the wallet against any form of brute force then the developers for no reason am to go extra mile in creating 24 phrases after 12 and then making it an option for convenience as the user feel about him wallet security.

Ok, why not think am sey dem dey try provide users wit options to choose from? You don ever think am go dat way? Anyway, I just dey share my experience as persin wey don dey use wallets for long and neva get any challenge wit using 12 seed phrase.

You know, before we dey think sey na until awa password for sites dey very long na im dey make am strong but some of us com begin realize sey using special characters dey make am solid, nor be d length. Ur password fit dey short but make sure sey special characters dey inside, e get why. I think most sites now sef don dey take style force people to choose special characters for their passwords.

Just as Hatchy tok am,  the reason why people like you go choose the 12 seed phrase na because Una dey find am difficult to the go about saving 24 when you can save 12 and relax...

You dey funny. Even if na 3 seed phrase, I nor dey forget to write am down for paper. I nor dey like memorize anything. I nor dey even save my seed phrase for my device. E nor be any stress for me to find where to save wetin dey vital to me na.

[osasshem]

This information legit sha, dem talk say as the world de evolve, na so technology de follow suit, and when technology de evolve, different treat levels go follow, na make new forms of making the treats dem to find am difficult to fully complete their actions. At the early time, na 12 words seed phrase way been de, because of this brute force attack, na make the upgrade to 24 words seed phrase come out. For me, my wallet still use the 12 words seed phrase.

[DaNNy001]

People seem to forget how complex remembering a seed phrase can be...some people have lost access to their wallets thereby losing all their assets because they forgot their seed phrase... I remember someone who used a very long seed phrase on his wallet and he thought that he wrote down the correct thing not knowing that he omitted something, he kept trying but it didn't work.. it's better to use 12 word seed than 24 so it won't be to complex to remember.. using a 24 words doesn't make it more safe.

[Ruttoshi]

. Some might decide to split the 24 words into half, but that's actually a bad choice. you literally can loss access to your funds if you end up mixing up these words or misplace any one of them.

No one need to abbreviate or split his seed phrase into parts to avoid lost of funds. The only thing that I would advice is to add passphrase to your 12 word seed phrase for higher security.

12 word seed phrase is strong enough from brute forcing and I prefer it due to the limited words. One thing that we shouldn't forget is to have backups to our seed phrase by having three copies and keep them in three different locations very far from each other.

[rachael9385]

I don use 12 seed phrase, and I don also use 24 seed phrase. If I get option today of either using 12 or 24 seeds, I go go for 12. I nor dey like long story. I like make things dey simple and sharp for me. In d past wen we started dis journey for dis industry, na 12 seeds dey dat time. I neva suffer any hack bc of sey I use 12 seeds and I believe sey na bc I dey careful of d apps wey I used. Persin supposed shine im eyes wen picking apps wey dem wan use store dem stuff. Even if you use 24 seeds own but you dey careless or you go use closed source wallet apps, d length of wetin you get as seedphrase nor matta anything.

Having a seed phrase is easy but overtime you might forget some details especially when it wasn't saved correctly. It's no big deal when it's just a week or a month but as time goes on would you be able to get it when it's needed. Using 24 phrase to me seems a little bit extra and if you are not careful it can cause some complications I. The future, if you can its better to always go for the 12 phrase. It's easier when they texts or words are not too long. What guarantees security is by keeping and safeguarding it.

[Princess Leah]

. Some might decide to split the 24 words into half, but that's actually a bad choice. you literally can loss access to your funds if you end up mixing up these words or misplace any one of them.

No one need to abbreviate or split his seed phrase into parts to avoid lost of funds. The only thing that I would advice is to add passphrase to your 12 word seed phrase for higher security.

12 word seed phrase is strong enough from brute forcing and I prefer it due to the limited words. One thing that we shouldn't forget is to have backups to our seed phrase by having three copies and keep them in three different locations very far from each other.

I know some people got retentive memories, they spilt their seed word phrase and try to store it in their memory but its very risky cause we're humans afteral and not robot and as some humans grow older they tend to lose some memories and misplace words or lose it completely so that idea is not very safe.

 Regardless of which is strong enough, the main thing is securing it against scammers cause they'll lose their strength immediately an evil third party gets access to any, well having a backup is not a bad idea you can store them In a safe in different locations in case of natural disasters or war outbreak.

[Felicity_Tide]

Have you ever wondered why we have the 12 and 24 seed phrase words?

Nice discussion OP, I will definitely expect more of these technical discussions on this board.

Your explanations are very valid. I added this in case anyone is interested in knowing how many bits each word represents as far as bip 39 standard is concerned.

Now, I guess it might have not come across your mind, but I was a bit curious. We all can agree that the entropy plays a very big role when it comes to generating seeds. Now, let's take the 12 seed phrase for example. It uses 128bits right?, but don't you think it would be fun to know the number of bits per word?.
So, if you are to divide 128 by the number of words, i.e 128/12, you will end up getting 10.6666, and I don't think it is possible to have that number of binary numbers making up a word.

Take the 24 seed phrase for example, which contains 256 bits as being stated, if we are to divide 256 by 12, you end up having 21.333, and you and I know that it is also not visible. AFAIK, the checksum does one important thing, and that's to add extra 1 bit to every group of 32 bits in your 128bits and 256bits respectively. I think it does this to secure and verify a group of entropy firmly.

So, when we have (32+1)+(32+1)+(32+1)+(32+1) = 128bits + 4bits, i.e 128bits of entropy, and 4bits of checksum = 132 bits in total. So inorder to confirm that these values are actually contained in your 12 seed phrase, just divide the 132 bits by 12words, i.e 132/12= 11.
It now makes sense to say that each word in a 12 seed phrase contains 11 bits and not the 10.6666. if you do the same thing for your 24 seed phrase, by grouping your entropy into 32 bits and adding a 1 bit of checksum to each group, you Should get (256bits + 8bits = 264 bits). And dividing 264 by 24, gives us a total of 11 bits per word.

The Bip 39 standard that we know contains a total of 2048 words, so 2¹¹=2048 words.

Too many calculations aside, I want to believe that the majority of us on this board use the Bip 39 standard. We don't stress ourselves too much, but we just generate a valid seed phrase, and move on with our lives. Nice topic @OP, and here is a link to video that also explains it for anyone that is interested. - https://youtu.be/vi4cPN_4VPc?si=f-bfcMIIRt_-n9Tc

[Obim34]

Curious, @Hatchy has there been an instance where a 12 words seed phrase has been guessed following a successful entry into a wallet with Bitcoin or any crypto in it?

Informations say there are above 1 Million English words known, out of them all how easy will it be to guess 12 or 24 words out of it in order to get access into someone's wallet? For this reason using 12 or 24 may not give maximum security when seed phrases are not handled carefully.

There hasn't been any technology created that would be able to brute force the 128bits. The speculation with quantum computers has been a thing of discussion these days and some say it would be a threat to bitcoin security. But honestly it would take even more couple of decades before any of such computers would run successfully as they require alot of power in other to work at the speed of light.

I read through the link you sent Read what @ o_e_l_e_o, said about this., according to GOOGLE below:

Brute-Force Impossibility:
Even with powerful supercomputers, cracking a seed phrase would take billions of years. A computer checking 10 combinations per second would still take 1.5 years to check all possibilities of a 12-word phrase

In a billion years we won't be alive, who knows if Bitcoin will still be regarded the way it is or will be replaced. Brute force seems out of list when we make a preference for entry into either 12 or 24 words seed phrase security in a wallet.

[Sticky Bomb]

People seem to forget how complex remembering a seed phrase can be...some people have lost access to their wallets thereby losing all their assets because they forgot their seed phrase... I remember someone who used a very long seed phrase on his wallet and he thought that he wrote down the correct thing not knowing that he omitted something, he kept trying but it didn't work.. it's better to use 12 word seed than 24 so it won't be to complex to remember.. using a 24 words doesn't make it more safe.

It is entirely wrong to memorize your seed phrases alone without writing it down somewhere offline for later retrieval when it is needed. The thing is that the human brain works like a computer with limited memory and as soon as the memory is overwritten by another information, it is possible to loose track of some vital parts of the previous information saved in memory.

It is better you save the seed phrases offline using durable water proof and fire proof metal sheets so it can persevere for longer. In all you do, never save your seed phrases online since the online account can be compromised and your seed phrases would be vulnerable.

I still prefer 12 words seed phrases to the 24 words, I love things simple and effective. As long as I do not undermine the security of my seed phrases or wallet in any way, I don't think there's much to worry about

[sokani]

Some might decide to split the 24 words into half, but that's actually a bad choice. you literally can loss access to your funds if you end up mixing up these words or misplace any one of them.

Your advice dey good but no be bad idea to split the seed phrase, nah to do am in such a way that you no go mess things up. For instance, split am make seed 1 - 12 dey for one part and 13 - 24 dey for the other part and in the right order. Notable figures in the industry like Buterin don do am before. E get the time wey him wan donate some coins for charity but him dey with only half of the seed while the other half dey for him family home for another city or country. Him call someone to send the oda half and naso him take move the coins.