CBDC and power cuts

[hugopaulmiller]

After the recent outages in Spain etc, which brought commerce to a standstill, I hear the EU has been crowing that if we had the CBDC this wouldn't be a problem, as it will work without electricity.
I have long wondered whether Bitcoin will likewise function without electricity - peer-to-peer by phone etc? And how about Blockstream satellite? My technical knowledge is limited on this subject.

[joniboini]

You might want to search around the forum since discussions around using satellite and other alternatives have been discussed many times in the past. I'm not sure what they refer to by working without electricity, though. Even a permissioned blockchain needs a computer to process transactions. If a business doesn't have electricity, any kind of payment method would struggle IMO. Sure, you can use satellite or something similar, but is that really cost-effective? Unless the cost to get electricity becomes unbearably expensive, I'd think having a week of downtime due to power cuts would be acceptable for them. CMIIW.

[Catenaccio]

After the recent outages in Spain etc, which brought commerce to a standstill, I hear the EU has been crowing that if we had the CBDC this wouldn't be a problem, as it will work without electricity.

I don't really believe that CBDCs work without electricity because it relates not only to CBDCs themselves but also to merchant operations and user payments that all need power supplies as well as internet connection.

A world without electricity and Internet connection are a dead world in modern era and electricty is very important because without it, there is no operation of merchants and many payment infrastructures. With Internet connection, you can have it with cable, non-cable connections or with Satellite Internet but the bottom line is you need Electricity first.

Alternatives for traditional internet
[Total privacy Bitcoin]: off grid Transactions LoRaWan/goTenna.

[obtainhigh]

CBDCs or Bitcoin both need electricity for actual usage, though tools like LoRa, goTenna, or satellites offer limited offline workarounds.

[hero_the_bossman]

There won't be so many shortages to think about it that much.

[Zlantann]

After the recent outages in Spain etc, which brought commerce to a standstill, I hear the EU has been crowing that if we had the CBDC this wouldn't be a problem, as it will work without electricity.
I have long wondered whether Bitcoin will likewise function without electricity - peer-to-peer by phone etc? And how about Blockstream satellite? My technical knowledge is limited on this subject.

Both Bitcoin and CBDC need electricity and the Internet to function. However, the difference is that CBDC is centralized, so transactions can be highly disrupted if there is a power outage. It's just like bank transactions, which face disruptions if there are network issues in the bank. Since Bitcoin is decentralized, these power outages might not be fatal. Anyway, seeking an alternative to power and the internet would be the best option, maybe a petrol or solar power generator and a Starlink internet connection.

You can check this article about Off-grid cryptocurrency transactions

Dev sends Bitcoin without using the web or the power grid

[The Hidebehinder]

After the recent outages in Spain etc, which brought commerce to a standstill, I hear the EU has been crowing that if we had the CBDC this wouldn't be a problem, as it will work without electricity.

Everything works with electricity!
If power fails everything fails:
- you can't use bitcoin or dogecoin because you can't broadcast a transactions
- you can't use a CBDC because of the same thing
- you can't use a card because all the banks are offline
- and surprise, you can't use cash because every chain store runs on electricity and they will not be able to issue receipts not will a cashier do the math for your groceries and then wait two days till the power is restored to do the balance for all those payments.

Other than mom&pop shops with low volume that will take cash nothing else will run, every big business would rather lose than order their staff to take money and write it down in notebooks only to insert another day in the system, it's way too much trouble for one day of income.

[john_egbert]

Everything works with electricity!
If power fails everything fails:
- you can't use bitcoin or dogecoin because you can't broadcast a transactions
- you can't use a CBDC because of the same thing
- you can't use a card because all the banks are offline
- and surprise, you can't use cash because every chain store runs on electricity and they will not be able to issue receipts not will a cashier do the math for your groceries and then wait two days till the power is restored to do the balance for all those payments.

Other than mom&pop shops with low volume that will take cash nothing else will run, every big business would rather lose than order their staff to take money and write it down in notebooks only to insert another day in the system, it's way too much trouble for one day of income.

Fortunately, such cuts around the world are not that common (at least yet)..

[The Cryptovator]

Actually, without power, you can't imagine anything nowadays; you will have to use electricity for CBDC as well. Because when you are using a mobile phone, you are definitely consuming power. So during a CBDC transaction, you have to use mobile power that came from electricity. However, this isn't a concern since CBDCs don't need mining, which means very little power is consumed that isn't really noticeable either. Bitcoin won't be like a CBDC anyway.

I assume you don't have much technical knowledge about how cryptography works. Bitcoin needs a blockchain that needs to solve the block by mining. But CDBC can be deployed on any chain that doesn't need mining. So it's not possible to peer-to-peer through mobile without blockchain. CDBC is just an algorithm that could even run without blockchain, like MFS services. Don't compare Bitcoin with CBDC.

[Smack That Ace]

As far as I know, the ECB is not claiming that the digital Euro will be able to operate without electricity, instead they are saying that they can operate offline without a constant internet connection. Because to be able to use it, we also need electronic devices, applications...so it is absurd to say that it can work without electricity. Also, using Digital Euro without internet is just theoretical and we will have to wait until it officially goes live to know for sure.

Both CBDC and bitcoin are digital currencies, digital assets, so they cannot function without electricity. I heard that bitcoin can work without the internet, but I don't think it can.

[FortuneFollower]

As far as I know, the ECB is not claiming that the digital Euro will be able to operate without electricity, instead they are saying that they can operate offline without a constant internet connection. Because to be able to use it, we also need electronic devices, applications...so it is absurd to say that it can work without electricity. Also, using Digital Euro without internet is just theoretical and we will have to wait until it officially goes live to know for sure.

Both CBDC and bitcoin are digital currencies, digital assets, so they cannot function without electricity. I heard that bitcoin can work without the internet, but I don't think it can.

We didn't have such Internet outages to test it out ourselves

Bitcoin transactions should go through radio waves or satellites, but I didn't dig through deep enough to find out how it works out.

[BenCodie]

There won't be so many shortages to think about it that much.

Everything works with electricity!
If power fails everything fails:
- you can't use bitcoin or dogecoin because you can't broadcast a transactions
- you can't use a CBDC because of the same thing
- you can't use a card because all the banks are offline
- and surprise, you can't use cash because every chain store runs on electricity and they will not be able to issue receipts not will a cashier do the math for your groceries and then wait two days till the power is restored to do the balance for all those payments.

Other than mom&pop shops with low volume that will take cash nothing else will run, every big business would rather lose than order their staff to take money and write it down in notebooks only to insert another day in the system, it's way too much trouble for one day of income.

Fortunately, such cuts around the world are not that common (at least yet)..

Best prepare for it before hand, rather than scramble to find a solution afterward!

I have long wondered whether Bitcoin will likewise function without electricity - peer-to-peer by phone etc?

You can do transactions by SMS, satellite and radio. Though without electricity, even these are limited (no battery charging means they'll only solve the problem of no internet for so long)

As far as I know, the ECB is not claiming that the digital Euro will be able to operate without electricity, instead they are saying that they can operate offline without a constant internet connection. Because to be able to use it, we also need electronic devices, applications...so it is absurd to say that it can work without electricity. Also, using Digital Euro without internet is just theoretical and we will have to wait until it officially goes live to know for sure.

Both CBDC and bitcoin are digital currencies, digital assets, so they cannot function without electricity. I heard that bitcoin can work without the internet, but I don't think it can.

We didn't have such Internet outages to test it out ourselves

Bitcoin transactions should go through radio waves or satellites, but I didn't dig through deep enough to find out how it works out.

And how about Blockstream satellite? My technical knowledge is limited on this subject.

Yes, bitcoin transactions can work through radio waves and satellites already. Further reading on how blockstream does this here.

[john_egbert]

Best prepare for it before hand, rather than scramble to find a solution afterward!

I think you are right, but that's just me. Some people will learn this the hard way

[Doan9269]

After the recent outages in Spain etc, which brought commerce to a standstill, I hear the EU has been crowing that if we had the CBDC this wouldn't be a problem, as it will work without electricity.
I have long wondered whether Bitcoin will likewise function without electricity - peer-to-peer by phone etc? And how about Blockstream satellite? My technical knowledge is limited on this subject.

If they had CBDC, the difference will only be small likened to the tradition fiat note they have been using, they just request for a digital form, but here they got it all wrong because they will still at the end got in the same mess with the corrupt financial system being under a centralized authority, but when we talk of bitcoin, there is nothing needed to maintain the use of a wallet, the network works under blockchain and then there is no way we can be put on hold in using an irreversible transaction, they would have suggested bitcoin instead, but with this, i still believe it a way getting closer.

[headingnorth]

The claim sounds rather dubious.

It seems to assume cell phone towers would still be in operation during a major power outage so you can still use your phone apps
and perform financial transactions. If the cell towers in the effected area have backup generator power they can
keep cell phone service going.

In that case many things will still function through your smartphone, including bitcoin transactions, so CBDCs don't have any
special advantage. Many companies and businesses, especially larger ones, have backup generator power so they can still be
in operation during a power outage at least temporarily. It's a dumb argument for CBDCs.

[freedomgo]

When you say “digital,” it automatically means it needs electricity.. it’s the same with Bitcoin.
The main difference is that CBDCs are stable or less volatile, and transactions are faster.

Bitcoin, on the other hand, is more volatile and might take some time for confirmations.
But here's the twist...  Bitcoin isn’t tied to inflation like CBDCs are, since CBDCs are still connected to fiat money.

So don’t believe everything they say. At the end of the day, only paper money doesn’t need electricity but it loses value over time.

[sokani]

Actually, without power, you can't imagine anything nowadays; you will have to use electricity for CBDC as well. Because when you are using a mobile phone, you are definitely consuming power. So during a CBDC transaction, you have to use mobile power that came from electricity. However, this isn't a concern since CBDCs don't need mining, which means very little power is consumed that isn't really noticeable either. Bitcoin won't be like a CBDC anyway.

You can actually use CBDC without electricity or internet connection, it all depends on the design and infrastructures. For example the Chinese (e-CNY), though it's still at its pilot program, can be used to make offline transactions using Near Field Communication (NFC) technology. The offline payment capabilities of the e-CNY makes it possible to send transactions even when there's power outage. About op's claim that EU is pushing for CBDC in other to checkmate issues like power outage is not true. They're fighting for CBDC because they want to control and scrutinize our every moves.

China’s digital yuan app has released a function which allows payments to be made from mobile phones while offline and without any battery left on the device. According to Yicai Global, the ‘Tap to pay’ function allowed for payments to be completed even when phones are turned off. It allows the app to activate smartphone hardware, such as near-field communication (NFC), which in effect turns the phone into a hard wallet.

[melinoe]

When you say “digital,” it automatically means it needs electricity.. it’s the same with Bitcoin.
The main difference is that CBDCs are stable or less volatile, and transactions are faster.

Bitcoin, on the other hand, is more volatile and might take some time for confirmations.
But here's the twist...  Bitcoin isn’t tied to inflation like CBDCs are, since CBDCs are still connected to fiat money.

So don’t believe everything they say. At the end of the day, only paper money doesn’t need electricity but it loses value over time.

One is centralized and the other is not, I agree.

We don't need electric fiat besides stablecoins

[BenCodie]

Best prepare for it before hand, rather than scramble to find a solution afterward!

I think you are right, but that's just me. Some people will learn this the hard way

Unfortunately we're on the same page.

The claim sounds rather dubious.

It seems to assume cell phone towers would still be in operation during a major power outage so you can still use your phone apps
and perform financial transactions. If the cell towers in the effected area have backup generator power they can
keep cell phone service going.

In that case many things will still function through your smartphone, including bitcoin transactions, so CBDCs don't have any
special advantage. Many companies and businesses, especially larger ones, have backup generator power so they can still be
in operation during a power outage at least temporarily. It's a dumb argument for CBDCs.

Yes, backup power generators can keep power going though it's both not particularly reasonable to assume and does not apply to all towers according to this article. As for companies having backup generators, yes larger ones maybe so, though most businesses I dare say would be relying on infrastructure they are renting/relying on their building. I wouldn't be surprised if backup coverage was in the sub 10-20% across the board.

I do agree that it's quite a petty reason for CBDCs.

[Ucy]

Ofcourse, we could use Bitcoin without electricity and even without the internet, if we could securely print its private keys of different amounts or denominations on papers or any material they can be printed on (which I would like to call BitcoinNote), then hide or seal off the keys with something that can easily be scratched off.. And the notes can be exchanged offline for goods and services.

 I think the note printing should be handled by reputable companies, people or organizations who can somewhat gurantee their integrity or security. The users will need to have easy ways to verify that the notes contained the real keys or haven't been tampered with nor their coins transferred to other addresses, and that they are authentic rather than counterfeit.

This can be easily achieved,  and the note should be printed by anyone, in decentralized manner, as long as the right standards are met, unlike how fiat printing is centralized. Once electricity or internet is restored users may scratch off the seal to reveal the private keys, enter them in their wallets and probably transfer to other addresses.